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Wonderful thank you! I don’t know what I’d do if we lost more of his plants at this point but I feel rather pitifully uneducated with the plants he left us. We have a few palm books left behind from him but was overwhelmed trying to figure things out from that

hope your neighbors like you. Crazy story unrelated to palms but maybe like 10 years ago my grandmas neighbor got annoyed about leaves falling into his pool from the wind and tried dumping herbicide over the fence when nobody was around to try to kill a huge ficus tree. Of course it didn’t work but it was concerning behavior.

Im definitely not trying to transform anything. I am just overall inquiring about the reasons. It probably does boil down to money. But I genuinely don’t think that it’s ever been attempted. But there’s probably little to no incentive for a nursery to try.

Update. It's been a little over two months since my palm was completely defoliated. Spear was damaged on top only. This picture is from today

Hello Gringo! Χαιρετίσματα στην πανέμορφη Πάφο! You hit the nail on the head, and since you brought up the "second desert in Europe" hypothesis, let's look at the hard numbers. The comparison with southeastern Spain (Almería and Cabo de Gata) is inevitable, and mathematically, they are almost twins. Let's do a deep dive into the actual data: Almería and Cabo de Gata are famous for being Europe's reference points for desert climates. Cabo de Gata is historically cited as the driest spot in the Iberian Peninsula, with an average annual precipitation of roughly 150 mm to 170 mm. Almería Airport officially hovers right around 200 mm. With a mean annual temperature of roughly 19°C, their Köppen Hot Desert (BWh) threshold is 190 mm. This means Cabo de Gata is BWh, while Almería city dances right on the BSh/BWh line. However, there is a massive catch with Spain: the official meteorological time series for Cabo de Gata is notoriously plagued with missing data and huge chronological gaps, making absolute long-term climatological normalizations a massive headache. Now look at Xerokampos. Τhe in-situ Davis station (2020–2026) recorded 219.5 mm. But Xerokampos is significantly hotter, with a blistering mean annual temperature of 20.9°C. This pushes its BWh desert threshold up to 209.0 mm. That means Xerokampos is hovering a mere 10 mm above the strict absolute desert line! Basically Xerokampos is at the exact same proportional distance from the BWh climate as Almería, just with a much hotter baseline. We just updated the research with deep ERA5 satellite data, and the findings are absolutely mind-blowing. Here is the exact breakdown of why this place is a structural anomaly: 1. We ran the historical reanalysis (1940–2026), and Xerokampos has seen a 9.5% precipitation drop in the last 30 years. But it gets crazier. For a continuous 15-year period (Feb 2004 to Dec 2018), the Mean Annual Precipitation locked in at exactly 208.02 mm. That means for 15 straight years, Xerokampos operated strictly as a BWh Hot Desert! 2. We finally proved why global models usually miss this micro-desert. Models like ERA5-Land use 9x9 km grid cells. Because the coastal strip is so narrow, the model accidentally averages the beach with the adjacent 753-meter high Ziros mountain, predicting a false 354.3 mm. But when we isolated the pure, undisturbed offshore marine cell right on the coastline (0m elevation), the model returned 212.0 mm! That is a less than 4% deviation from the station (219.5 mm). The coast literally behaves like the open sea. 3. The rain shadow here is brutal. As the air descends the Ziros mountain, it heats up rapidly (dry adiabatic lapse rate of ~9.8°C/km). We calculated that roughly 140.6 mm of rain per year evaporates in mid-air (virga) before it even hits the ground at Xerokampos. 4. To prove the orographic shield, we looked at extreme weather. During the catastrophic Storm Daniel in Sept 2023, the windward Toplou monastery recorded 64.6 mm. Xerokampos? A measly 3.6 mm. It received barely 5.5% of the regional rainfall because the mountain completely cut it off. When you look at these numbers, the conclusion is unavoidable. Xerokampos isn't just dry; it is a topographically isolated, borderline desert microclimate. And it's not just the Ziziphus lotus telling us this. The ecosystem is uniquely adapted, hosting a suite of North African and Saharo-Arabian thermophilic flora, including the desert grass Lygeum spartum and the drought-resistant Periploca Angustifolia. The harsh sandy and saline soils of the local Alatsolimni (salt lake) complete this extreme xerothermic picture. Not to mention the sand dunes immediately west of Xerokampos or the fact that the Sitia UNESCO geopark officially characterizes the climate in Xerokampos as ''semi-desert''. You are totally right, we might get a second hot desert in Europe provided the numbers hold up as the Davis station in Xerokampos expands its operation. Here is the updated paper in English and Greek (I kinda helped methodologically but I chose not to be listed as an author): Xerokampos desert EN.pdf Xerokampos desert GR.pdf

Thanks for the advice! I’m really considering putting it in the ground now that the soil is warming up, but I’m a bit worried about the space. My garden is quite small, only 4x4 meters (13.1 x 13.1 ft), so I’d have to plant it very close to a new 1.7 meter (5.6 ft) fence I’m installing next month. Since the palm isn't tall enough yet, the leaves will definitely be rubbing against the fence for a while. Do you think the faster growth from being in the ground is worth the risk of some leaf damage? I’m afraid that if I keep it in the pot, it’ll take way too long to finally clear that height. By the way, since my garden is only 4 meters (13.1 ft) wide, I’m worried that if I plant it in the center, the canopy or some fronds might eventually reach the neighbors... or no...

I would personally plant it now. This species need a lot of water, and it will dry out quicker in a pot than it will in the ground. I cant comment on growth rate and how long it will take to the height you want

Well, I added quite a few palms to my yard this year but I also removed some because our squirrels in the backyard kept eating my Chamaedora radicalis @Ben G. They're in a pot for now until they grow bigger . So what's in the ground now? 1xSabal Defuniak @Chester B 2xSabal Palmetto 1xChamaerops humilis

I have a fair amount of these that are available. My preference would be shipping within the U.S., as international shipping costs have really gone crazy over the past few years. The mother plant is a beauty.

I can see how this Cycas Siamensis “Silver form” got its name. I wish the leaves would stay silver like this but they usually start turning green in a few days after this stage.

True to Form, the big rains from the weekend died in Alabama; Atlanta got none.

I have never met anyone at our two major big box chains that know anything about plants, let alone palms. The garden center is staffed with cashiers.

I hate to tell you, but if you think you can transform the nursery industry, you might want to think again. I think what you're calling a "regular nursery" is a "plant retailer." Big Box stores have overtaken the industry and typically employ people with zero-to-scant knowledge of plants and sell rafts of product carefully coordinated with huge grower-corporations (think "Proven Winners" and the like) disseminated through marketing channels and trade-shows to develop a thirst for some new variety or cultivar in a seasonal blitzkrieg. Of course these big retailers will also carry a selection of bread-and-butter landscape palms: queens, kings, Washingtonia, Butia, Trachycarpus, et al depending on the dictated climate zone. They will likely special-order something if it's available from their regular list of suppliers, but the wholesale growers are also tuned in to what sells and grows quickly because they have to stay in business...and real estate, containers, soil and water are expensive when there's little hope for moving the plants out in good time. A production-to-market time of three years vs. seven years makes a huge difference in the profits of a grower, and as others have mentioned above, this is why you will find queens, kings and in particular Washingtonia over Sabal...they grow, and thus move, quickly. And Joe and Mary Homeowner are happy to see a nice fast-growing "palm tree" at their new tract home because they suffer from our modern-day need for instant gratification. In SoCal it's almost a miracle that we now see Bismarckia sold regularly in garden centers; with Ravenea heavily pushed for the houseplant market. Yes, Foxtails, Triangles, and a very few others are occasionally encountered, and it took many years for this latter group to gain any kind of foothold, which is really not even a foothold, they're still oddities to many but they grow at a decent speed and growers can probably make a bit of money on them in certain areas. Sabal is not likely to join even that outlier group, despite its hardiness and other positive qualities, because it is just not a fast-growing palm and has no customer familiarity. It's just an uphill battle for both the grower and the larger retail channel. While the rarer-and-rarer traditional nurseries will most likely order many plants from wholesalers, they are often growers themselves, they may go to great lengths to acquire propagation material of unusual species, nurse them, shift up to saleable sizes all by their own hand. They may buy bud-wood and graft fruit trees using a known rootstock for their area, etc. These are generally multi-generational, dedicated and knowledgeable nursery people whose horticultural and real-world experience in the landscape have gained them a major reputation and make for a completely different experience that appeals to serious gardeners who want to gain horticultural or botanical knowledge. Those nursery-people also gain a lot of satisfaction from interacting with customers and exchanging knowledge and experience. But they are realists, and if you get them into a conversation about something like Sabal, will likely say, "well, we don't get any call for them, so they're just not something we carry, and we can't even special order them without importing them from Florida, because they're just not profitable for growers here. You should go to a specialist palm nursery." And here we lead back to the community of specialty growers, including backyard growers, who offer a wonderful array of plants that was unthinkable even fifty or sixty years ago. It is thanks to these people who have poured their hearts and wallets into a risky business that we have them...so I think the best thing you can do is spread the word to others about the palms you champion and point people in the direction of these knowledgeable and dedicated nurserymen and women who have enriched our personal and, for many, professional lives with a variety of unusual plants that was unthinkable a few decades ago.

I'll tell you why, big box stores and general nurseries sell lots of different plant and business person on a computer tells them the same things a car dealer must know. How much does it cost(seed, fertilizer, time), how fast does it sell, and what can you sell it for over your cost. Sabals are a loser in california for one or more of those reasons. Seed is cheap, time is long so fertilizer and upkeep labor is more, and they dont sell for as much as some other palms. Put all the local species in profit order and pick 6 or 8 or 10 whatever the limited sized lineup you want. With hundreds of species possible, sabal falls down the list a ways and the less palm centric sellers don't carry them. And then you consider that its likely big box stores sell more palms than specialty nurseries. Southern California had a ton of specialty nurseries 10 years ago when I lived there, I think the business is well understood.

I don’t know the history, but I wonder if it’s ever been tried. Perhaps, like many here, the nurseries figure washingtonias are faster growing and similar so they don’t even try.

Tree (small) has been purchased. Thanks for all of the information.

Another week and another dumping of rain. This time even more fell on Saturday evening. Lots of flooding in my yard and today the ground is still wet and squishy. I forgot what it's like since its been at least 9 months since I've seen rain like this. One of my new garden beds was completely underwater, but I have it planted with Southern Wax Myrtles so they can tolerate those conditions. Even more rain in the forecast too. I guess we'll have to wait and see if the rain cuts off in July like it has the last 2 years. But I should get some great spring growth

My uneducated guess would be that it suffered a bit from this past harsh winter, and that since it comes from such a dry climate it might be vulnerable to fungal attacks in the southern US. From your photos though the damage looks rather cosmetic, and I would not be too concerned. It probably isn't worth trying to spray the leaves with anything as I doubt there is an active pathogen attacking them at this point. As long as the newer leaves are unblemished the palm will replace the damaged older leaves over the course of the hot growing season. A small dose of a good palm fertilizer wouldn't hurt. I would not cut any of the damaged leaves off, only the completely dead brown leaves if you want. The damaged leaves are still contributing to photosynthesis and cutting away the cosmetic damage would do more harm than good. Overall though it seems like it's a survivor and I would bet it will be just fine without any intervention.

RIP @Pal Meir do not realize he passed away!😢🤧

ah-ha! Thank you very much! Can you tell Is ours ok or diseased? Can I do anything to aid it. I know my grandpas palms here were brought up from Florida, many years prior when his grandpas/great grandpas nursery closed he went down and got many and brought them back. (Coppingers tropical garden and pirates cove) There’s a few different large palms planted about the house, and he had lady palms and I think a fishtail? Or foxtail? As well as a sago planted in pots that go in the greenhouse overwinter.

Two eventually did and are growing fine. Two started producing new growth but spear pulled a second time. I took a more aggressive approach and crown cut them, to which both again started pushing new growth and I thought they'd be good. Then one took a turn for the worst and died. The other one continued but yet again pulled spear last year. This is how it looks today and appears to be pushing new growth. And this is how it should look, as this one was transplanted at the same time from the same grower to my yard. It had pulled spear once and has recovered nicely. Both were fruiting at the time and it's why I selected these, as the intent is for them to be future mule producers.

It comes down to money. How much does the nursery invest, how much demand is there, how quick is the turnaround. If the market in California supported Sabals, they would be mass-grown by Monrovia and sold by all the big box retail stores.

Thanks. I agree. Much stiffer leaves. More of an upright habit. It's maybe 2 feet tall. Fast grower. Purchased with about 9 or ten stems. Had more than doubled stems in 2 years. Good grower for me.

We have a young one, it has a lot of burn but growing out.

Hi everyone, I’m looking for some expert advice regarding my Archontophoenix alexandrae. I live in Calafell (Tarragona, Spain), which has a Mediterranean climate. I bought this palm in March 2025. It came in a 35L pot with only 3 leaves. After one year, it has produced 4 new leaves (7 in total now). I have it in a 50x50 cm (approx. 100L) terracotta pot. I know terracotta isn't ideal for moisture retention, but it’s its current home. My goal and dilemma: I eventually want to plant it in the ground, but I need it to reach a certain height first. Behind the palm, there is a fence/wall, and I need the trunk (stele) plus the crownshaft to reach at least 1.70 meters (approx. 5.5 feet) so the fronds can clear the fence without hitting it. My questions for the forum: Growth projection: Given that it produced 4 leaves in one growing season, how long do you think it will take to develop a 1-meter trunk plus the crownshaft in its current conditions? Pot limitation: Will this 50x50 cm pot severely limit its vertical growth or trunk thickness (caliper) before it reaches my target height? Can I expect it to develop more rings on the trunk while still in this pot? Advice: Should I keep it in this pot until it clears the fence height, or is it better to put it in the ground now even if the leaves hit the fence for a couple of years? I’ve attached three photos: the day I bought it, the day of the transplant, and its current state one year later. Thanks in advance for your help!