Multi Trunked blue/silver palms in central Florida

[ncimino]

I have a perfect spot for a multi trunked blue/silver palm in my landscape in central Florida but I was wondering what is best suited for the Orlando area.

The 4 varieties that come to mind are the Trithrinax Campestris, Chamaerops humilis var. cerifera,  Nannorrhops ritchiana and the Acoelorrhaphe Wrightii azul.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of information on any of these in central Florida so I thought I would make a topic.

Thanks!

[Merlyn]

@ncimino I have Acoelorrhaphe Wrightii 'Azul' and Chamaerops Humilis "Cerifera" here on the NW side of Orlando.  Both are good growers for me, though predictably slow to gain height.  Both are also very resistant to common diseases and tolerate full sun to shade.  I'd pick one of the two based on personal preference.  Everglades palm will eventually grow to a bigger diameter cluster, if that matters for your spot.

Nannorrhops is a desert palm and may struggle in the swamp of Orlando.  I think @kinzyjr was growing this one?  Trithrinax Campestris is known as an extremely slow grower.  I think it's one of the decades-to-trunk types, but I might be wrong on that.

[ncimino]

10 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

@ncimino I have Acoelorrhaphe Wrightii 'Azul' and Chamaerops Humilis "Cerifera" here on the NW side of Orlando.

Any pictures? And the age of each?

 

[Fusca]

My climate is similar to Central Florida except for less rain.  Very humid.  I'm growing what I believe is Nannorrhops richiana 'arabica' which is not native to Afghanistan but coastal areas of Iran.  It is growing well for me but I'm not sure about its cold hardiness - supposedly it's much less than the green form from Afghanistan but that shouldn't be a problem here.  The palms at the nursery had some black spots on the oldest fronds which I assumed were from high humidity but I haven't noticed any more of it since planting this past May.  It's silver color is what attracted me to it and it's similar to my Bismarckia.

[Eric in Orlando]

Also these;

Serenoa repens  (blue-silver form)

Leucothrinax morrissii- plant in a group

 

[kinzyjr]

7 hours ago, Merlyn said:

Nannorrhops is a desert palm and may struggle in the swamp of Orlando.  I think @kinzyjr was growing this one? 

I lost a seedling, but have another in the on-deck circle. I know they are possible in Florida as I've seen a decent sized one at Selby down in Sarasota.  This go-around, it will probably stay in a pot to see if I can get some size on it before it attempts to tackle the cruel world in the ground here.

For the others, Chamaerops humilis 'Cerifera' and Trithrinax campestris are definitely hardy and make appearances in Central FL.  Watching Trithrinax grow is like watching paint peel, though.  Overall, the nod goes to Acoelorraphe wrightii 'Azul' for easiest of the bunch to grow here.

[ncimino]

1 hour ago, kinzyjr said:

Watching Trithrinax grow is like watching paint peel, though.  

Interesting, actually the Trithrinax intrigues me the most of the group and seems to have the least amount of people trying it. 

Do you think it grows slow because of incompatibility or that it grows slow in it's natural habitat as well? Maybe we haven't discovered the right trick it responds to or I guess if it grows slow in it's natural habitat there is no trick.

[kinzyjr]

10 minutes ago, ncimino said:

Interesting, actually the Trithrinax intrigues me the most of the group and seems to have the least amount of people trying it. 

Do you think it grows slow because of incompatibility or that it grows slow in it's natural habitat as well? Maybe we haven't discovered the right trick it responds to or I guess if it grows slow in it's natural habitat there is no trick.

I think they just grow slow by their nature.  You wouldn't have to worry about cold with them, so if you have the time and are interested in growing one, no harm in it.

[tim_brissy_13]

5 hours ago, Fusca said:

My climate is similar to Central Florida except for less rain.  Very humid.  I'm growing what I believe is Nannorrhops richiana 'arabica' which is not native to Afghanistan but coastal areas of Iran.  It is growing well for me but I'm not sure about its cold hardiness - supposedly it's much less than the green form from Afghanistan but that shouldn't be a problem here.  The palms at the nursery had some black spots on the oldest fronds which I assumed were from high humidity but I haven't noticed any more of it since planting this past May.  It's silver color is what attracted me to it and it's similar to my Bismarckia.

Now formally described and accepted as N baluchestanica I believe. 
https://powo.science.kew.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:77164305-1

[ncimino]

In terms of the blue/silver coloring, which of these palms would be most likely to maintain their silver color in Orlando's climate?

 

I believe I saw some posts here that mentioned rain washing the silver color off of some of these palms.

[aztropic]

Rain diminishes the blue/white coating on all of them over time. Newly produced fronds always display the best color.

 

aztropic 

Mesa, Arizona.

[Eric in Orlando]

Although there are nice specimens at Fairchild and Selby I have never gotten a Nannorrhops to grow well here in Orlando, either at my house or Leu Gardens. I have tried lots from different seed locales. Also have never gotten Trithrinax campestris to grow well either.

A couple other larger single trunked palms with good coloring to plant in groups are Copernica alba, C. prunifera and C. hospita. 

 

[SeanK]

11 hours ago, ncimino said:

In terms of the blue/silver coloring, which of these palms would be most likely to maintain their silver color in Orlando's climate?

 

I believe I saw some posts here that mentioned rain washing the silver color off of some of these palms.

Serenoa

[ncimino]

1 hour ago, Eric in Orlando said:

Although there are nice specimens at Fairchild and Selby I have never gotten a Nannorrhops to grow well here in Orlando, either at my house or Leu Gardens. I have tried lots from different seed locales. Also have never gotten Trithrinax campestris to grow well either.

A couple other larger single trunked palms with good coloring to plant in groups are Copernica alba, C. prunifera and C. hospita. 

 

What usually happens or what is the issue? Speculation on the problem?

[Fusca]

15 hours ago, tim_brissy_13 said:

Now formally described and accepted as N baluchestanica I believe. 
https://powo.science.kew.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:77164305-1

Thanks Tim, hadn't heard that name before. 

[Merlyn]

@ncimino full sun will help to develop the best bluish waxy coating, but it also means full rain exposure too.  So then the waxy color washes off faster too.  They'll never look as silver-blue as you'd see in AZ or CA. 

As far as Nannorrhops goes, it's probably just the constant oppressive humidity and daily thunderstorms in the summer.  Some plants are just susceptible to root or crown rots in constantly wet conditions.  Some Dypsis/Chrysalidocarpus, for example, grow great in CA but wither and die in FL.  Many "desert" type plants hate FL.  I found that out the hard way with several Encephalartos species, like Longifolius, Trispinosus, Arenarius, and Horridus.  They do ok in pots if given no supplemental water, but rot and die in the ground after the first or second wet winter.

[Merlyn]

@ncimino here is my Chamaerops Humilis "Cerifera."  The new fronds are a pretty good silver-blue color, but by the time they are a few months old the rain has washed them to only have some silvery highlights.  The older fronds down low are mostly green.  For color reference the palm on the right is a Coccothrinax Argentea, and the agave below is Decipiens.  I bought this with about 2 feet of trunk, so no clue how old it really is:

This is one of two Acoelorrhaphe Wrightii Cerifera, bought as seedlings from Texas Cold Hardy Palms (TCHP) in January 2021 and planted here in February 2021.  It's not particularly silvery, but more of a slightly bluish green color.  It's definitely more blue than a "normal" type, but nothing really dramatic.  And it needs more magnesium, thus the yellow tips.  For reference the plant on the right is a deep green Encephalartos Sclavoi x Ituriensis, and the light green plant on the bottom left is a Dioon Edule.

[Merlyn]

This is a picture of the same plant from the opposite side, in June 2023.  It was a bit more blue at that time, so probably the magnesium deficiency isn't helping the coloring:

[tim_brissy_13]

11 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

@ncimino here is my Chamaerops Humilis "Cerifera."  The new fronds are a pretty good silver-blue color, but by the time they are a few months old the rain has washed them to only have some silvery highlights.  The older fronds down low are mostly green.  For color reference the palm on the right is a Coccothrinax Argentea, and the agave below is Decipiens.  I bought this with about 2 feet of trunk, so no clue how old it really is:

This is one of two Acoelorrhaphe Wrightii Cerifera, bought as seedlings from Texas Cold Hardy Palms (TCHP) in January 2021 and planted here in February 2021.  It's not particularly silvery, but more of a slightly bluish green color.  It's definitely more blue than a "normal" type, but nothing really dramatic.  And it needs more magnesium, thus the yellow tips.  For reference the plant on the right is a deep green Encephalartos Sclavoi x Ituriensis, and the light green plant on the bottom left is a Dioon Edule.

Your C humilis looks like the standard European form rather than var argentea. The unique characteristic for argentea (aside from the colour which can be variable based on environment) is the thorns on the petiole. Var argentea has larger, darker thorns with are perpendicular to the petiole but your appears to have thorns more like the standard form. Even the standard form will have silvery coloured new growth and most retain colour on the abaxial/underside frond surface. 

[Merlyn]

1 hour ago, tim_brissy_13 said:

Your C humilis looks like the standard European form rather than var argentea. The unique characteristic for argentea (aside from the colour which can be variable based on environment) is the thorns on the petiole. Var argentea has larger, darker thorns with are perpendicular to the petiole but your appears to have thorns more like the standard form. Even the standard form will have silvery coloured new growth and most retain colour on the abaxial/underside frond surface. 

It's entirely possible it is not Argentea.  The thorns on it are more-or-less white with a bit of tan coloring permanently.  The other from the same purchase has similar white thorns on brand new fronds but turn black after a month or so.  This one is in too much shade from a Butia on the left, Alfredii behind it, and Causiarum to the right.  It's super stretched out but has more of the silver-blue, and is about the same blueish color on the top and bottom of the leaves.  However it's not silver-white like a Bismarck or like pictures I've seen in CA, it's more like Butia color.  It may not be Argentea either:

I found a photo of the black thorns on Argentea from Agaveville forums.  The thorns on my above plant look similar but are smaller.  The frond color is pretty close.  Maybe in CA or AZ it would be more white.

[sonoranfans]

A serenoa repens silver will be happier than any of the above save  Acoelorrhaphe Wrightii 'Azu in floridas climate.  IF they do not look silverish when small they arent the silver variety.  Here is my source, I have (5).  Grows well in sandy soil, doesnt need much fertilizer and does well in drought.

https://woodlanders.net/collections/palms/products/serenoa-repens

[ncimino]

In regards to the serenoa repens, I am really looking for something with more distinct trunks and really between 10-20 feet tall as being most ideal.

12-14 feet in height would be absolutely perfect from a design perspective of what I am looking to do. But there are so many factors in picking a palm, so I understand flexibility to ensure its success not only aesthetically but health of the plant.

But that being said, The distinct trunks is really what I am going after, and I am not sure serenoa repens can be trimmed in that way and still be healthy?

 

I also thought about taking maybe some of the smaller copernicia palms, planting them together how nursuries plant christmas palms to create that multitrunked look.

 

22 hours ago, tim_brissy_13 said:

Your C humilis looks like the standard European form rather than var argentea. The unique characteristic for argentea (aside from the colour which can be variable based on environment) is the thorns on the petiole. Var argentea has larger, darker thorns with are perpendicular to the petiole but your appears to have thorns more like the standard form. Even the standard form will have silvery coloured new growth and most retain colour on the abaxial/underside frond surface. 

Interesting observation, if I end up going the Cerifera/Argentea route, can you post a side by side picture of what you are referring to?

I have noticed sometimes they just aren't that blue/silver in nurseries, whenever I inquire to the nursery I usually get a very sharp response and they are not happy I questioned the variety of their palm!
 

My theory is that things get mixed up all the time, especially with some of these large scale operations. I would think it is really hard to guarantee everything to be the variety as advertised although in 95% of situations it probably is true.

[Fishinsteeg234]

Another species to consider is Coccothrinax macroglossa “Azul” planted as a group. MB Palms in Orlando actually carried these at the open house earlier this spring. The downsides are these are relatively slow growers, and are pricey and only available in small sizes. Here’s a few pics from MB palms display garden, and from Palmpedia. First two pics are from MB plams, owner Mike said these were about 8-10 years old from 7gallons. Following pics from palmpedia showing the good silver color. I purchased two 3 gallon plants from the spring sale. 
 

 

[tim_brissy_13]

5 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

A serenoa repens silver will be happier than any of the above save  Acoelorrhaphe Wrightii 'Azu in floridas climate.  IF they do not look silverish when small they arent the silver variety.  Here is my source, I have (5).  Grows well in sandy soil, doesnt need much fertilizer and does well in drought.

https://woodlanders.net/collections/palms/products/serenoa-repens

When does the silver colour show itself in a seedling? I have a batch of seedlings I’ve just germinated from RPS as the Silver but the first frond is green (which I assumed was normal). 

[SeanK]

4 hours ago, Fishinsteeg234 said:

Another species to consider is Coccothrinax macroglossa “Azul” planted as a group. MB Palms in Orlando actually carried these at the open house earlier this spring. The downsides are these are relatively slow growers, and are pricey and only available in small sizes. Here’s a few pics from MB palms display garden, and from Palmpedia. First two pics are from MB plams, owner Mike said these were about 8-10 years old from 7gallons. Following pics from palmpedia showing the good silver color. I purchased two 3 gallon plants from the spring sale. 
 

 

These have held their blue color very well in the humidity.

[sonoranfans]

1 hour ago, tim_brissy_13 said:

When does the silver colour show itself in a seedling? I have a batch of seedlings I’ve just germinated from RPS as the Silver but the first frond is green (which I assumed was normal). 

I cant say I planted out 1 gallon sizes and they had some wax but not impressive or silver more light green with hints of silver(wax).

[sonoranfans]

6 hours ago, ncimino said:

In regards to the serenoa repens, I am really looking for something with more distinct trunks and really between 10-20 feet tall as being most ideal.

12-14 feet in height would be absolutely perfect from a design perspective of what I am looking to do. But there are so many factors in picking a palm, so I understand flexibility to ensure its success not only aesthetically but health of the plant.

But that being said, The distinct trunks is really what I am going after, and I am not sure serenoa repens can be trimmed in that way and still be healthy?

 

I also thought about taking maybe some of the smaller copernicia palms, planting them together how nursuries plant christmas palms to create that multitrunked look.

There are many factors in keeping a palm happy and climate says the mediterranean chamaerops and desert species like mazari are going to struggle some in florida.  Seems like you want thin trunks and narrow crowns plus blue color.  The serenoia do grow 6-8' trunks eventually.  The most stunning color blue you can grow in florida is copernicia hospita.   They are not easy to find and they should show blue from strap leaf seedling as there is a green form too.  This one is about 4 years from a strap leaf seedling.  They have some where I bought mine at redlands nursery in 1 gallon I think.  They are not cheap.

[ncimino]

On 10/3/2024 at 9:33 AM, aztropic said:

Rain diminishes the blue/white coating on all of them over time. Newly produced fronds always display the best color.

 

aztropic 

Mesa, Arizona.

I have seen a lot of people say this, but I really do not see that with my Bismarck. The new fronds that initially come out are actually pretty green, in fact upon a quick glance that is how I can tell if my Bismarck's have sprouted a new frond is if I see a green tint towards the center of the palm.

I think the blue coating forms over time with dry hot sun exposure. But I do think to some degree it fades, and maybe the frond is unable to reproduce the coating after it has already produced the coating once.

I don't think rain has as much of an impact as maybe wind blowing and rubbing the fronds together and the coating off? 

All theories just from observations of my own palms.

[Merlyn]

@ncimino I also find Bismarck hold their silver really well.  It's only when fronds go below horizontal that they tend to look more grey than silver-white.  My "Azul" Wrightii just isn't old enough to know if it stays blue or not.  I planted a triple Copernicia Hospita this summer from strap leaf seedlings.  It may take 5 years for them to grow into much.  

[Steve in Florida]

Here's a pic of a few Mazari palms that were field dug and bagged.

[ncimino]

Those look amazing, were these grown in Live Oak, FL?

[SeanK]

5 hours ago, ncimino said:

Those look amazing, were these grown in Live Oak, FL?

Background palms all look like Trachycarpus. I don't think it's Florida.

[ncimino]

1 hour ago, SeanK said:

Background palms all look like Trachycarpus. I don't think it's Florida.

Is that because they do not grow in the humidity?

 

I noticed this new planting on 436 by FDOT, could it be a trachycarpus or chamaerops humilis?

[Merlyn]

@ncimino Trachies are extremely susceptible to root nematodes.  They can be grown in North Fl, but die really fast in the ground here.  FDOT planted a whole bunch of 15ft trunk trachies on the NW side of the 434 & I4 intersection.  All of them (at least a dozen) died in about a year, maybe a bit longer.  I think @kinzyjr found one of the few living trachies in central Fl, in the center of a parking lot surrounded by asphalt.  

That said, those do look like young Chamaerops.  I looked again at my second shaded "cerifera" yesterday, and it does have the large black straight thorns.  So I will try and remember to get a better photo tomorrow.

[ncimino]

I was originally thinking chamaerops but it doesnt look like nearly enough space for a multi trunked palm. I would think they would start growing into the road in no time. This is on the west side of the i4/436 interchange. I would think for that area a tall single trunk would be a better fit.

 

On the subject of my yard, I really want to try a trithrinax. I just think if they are able to grow one in Fairchild Botonical Garden, it should for sure work here unless there is something I am missing? Humidity seems like it would be more of an issue in Fairchild vs here, same with the water causing root rot. Is there a condition that is less ideal in Orlando vs Coral Gables for a trithrinax?

[kinzyjr]

42 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

@ncimino Trachies are extremely susceptible to root nematodes.  They can be grown in North Fl, but die really fast in the ground here.  FDOT planted a whole bunch of 15ft trunk trachies on the NW side of the 434 & I4 intersection.  All of them (at least a dozen) died in about a year, maybe a bit longer.  I think @kinzyjr found one of the few living trachies in central Fl, in the center of a parking lot surrounded by asphalt.  

That said, those do look like young Chamaerops.  I looked again at my second shaded "cerifera" yesterday, and it does have the large black straight thorns.  So I will try and remember to get a better photo tomorrow.

There are a few spots around here where we can grow Trachycarpus decently, but not as well as points further north in my opinion.  To check out what we do have:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/56607-trachycarpus-in-lakeland/

[Merlyn]

@ncimino Trithrinax Campestris is super hardy, if I recall correctly the only issue is that it's just really slow.  

FDOT are not known for particularly wise choice in palm plantings.  They built the 417 to 429 interchange at I4 and planted a hundred Dactilyfera, even though Lethal Bronzing was killing them all over the state.  So planting a clustering palm in a 2 foot wide median seems totally normal...  

[Gallop]

Brahea decumbens is a good grower and will stay blue in wet humid conditions. It starts off green and a bit slow but in 10 years you’ll have a beautiful blue specimen in your yard. I planted mine out 5yrs ago as a 1gal. It has never given me any issues and has seen cold wet winters into the teens. I’m also trying Brahea moorei. It has taken a couple years to get established in ground but I’m hopeful next year they will push a nice set of leaves. 

 

[SeanK]

10 hours ago, ncimino said:

Is that because they do not grow in the humidity?

 

I noticed this new planting on 436 by FDOT, could it be a trachycarpus or chamaerops humilis?

Chamaerhops.

[SeanK]

9 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

There are a few spots around here where we can grow Trachycarpus decently, but not as well as points further north in my opinion.  To check out what we do have:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/56607-trachycarpus-in-lakeland/

S.palmetto grows very well in Florida, yet folks try to plant more tropical-looking palms. Given this penchant, I don't believe those Mazaris are planted in FL (in front of Trachycarpi)