New and Updated Sabal Minor Range?

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

On 9/23/2022 at 5:40 PM, ruskinPalms said:

I think this might be a Sabal minor growing in the muck in the drainage ditch behind my house (Parrish, FL). The fronds have always been less costapalmate than Sabal palmettos I have seen at the same size and there is no hint of a trunk. It is submerged in water 95% of the year. Maybe it is palmetto and that is how they look when mostly submerged. I’m the worst when it comes to identifying Sabals. 
 

That is very likely S. palmetto.  The petiole length is extraordinary for S. minor.  It's growth rate is probably very slow due to it being water logged and competing with so many other plants.  

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

35 minutes ago, Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax) said:

Sabal minor has not been found in all Florida counties.  Here's a reference.

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/plant.aspx?id=2287

That map seems odd / off to me.  I live here and I know 100% certain there re one ty of wild S Minor in Pinellas county.   I have seen them in parks / preserves in SWFL as well.   They grow in some pretty hot / tropical areas down here, usually shaded by much larger oaks etc.  

[Silas_Sancona]

5 minutes ago, DCA_Palm_Fan said:

That map seems odd / off to me.  I live here and I know 100% certain there re one ty of wild S Minor in Pinellas county.   I have seen them in parks / preserves in SWFL as well.   They grow in some pretty hot / tropical areas down here, usually shaded by much larger oaks etc.  

X2 ^ that they're there ( ..Growing naturally in Pinellas Co. )

Even if not perfect,  iNat. observations are the only ones i put the most faith in when it comes to researching a specie's distribution. Other distribution maps on other sites don't seem to be updated near as often.
 
Sabal minor range, via iNat observations:
https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/81804-Sabal-minor


Zoomed in a bit:

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

4 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

X2 ^ that they're there ( ..Growing naturally in Pinellas Co. )

Even if not perfect,  iNat. observations are the only ones i put the most faith in when it comes to researching a specie's distribution. Other distribution maps on other sites don't seem to be updated near as often.
 
Sabal minor range, via iNat observations:
https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/81804-Sabal-minor


Zoomed in a bit:

Now that jives alot more with what I have seen.   Even the parts in / around South Florida.   No map will ever convince me that they are not native to Pinellas County & much further south.   I live here. I’ve been all over southern Florida.  I know what I see in real life and it’s pretty different from most maps.  Lol. 

[Silas_Sancona]

22 minutes ago, DCA_Palm_Fan said:

Now that jives alot more with what I have seen.   Even the parts in / around South Florida.   No map will ever convince me that they are not native to Pinellas County & much further south.   I live here. I’ve been all over southern Florida.  I know what I see in real life and it’s pretty different from most maps.  Lol. 

I remember seeing them around Pinellas, Manatee, and Sarasota counties as well.  That said,  i always try to go by  the " Research Grade " observations since, even as good as iNat Obs. can be, there are plenty of terrible ones as well and someone not well versed on palms / etc else could mistake a juvenile S. palmetto for S. minor.

Numerous times i have seen other plants in an area where they weren't yet documented in iNat's database as well ( Adding my observations to the  site's data base  = something i need to do myself one of these days, haha ) ...So there is a little wiggle room on questioning accuracy of  valid observations sometimes. 

Again though, like you, i have no doubts S. minor has a wider distribution than some might suggest.. Like Washingtonia,  Birds, and other critters who may aid in seed dispersal can move Sabal seed around pretty efficiently ..Just a matter of finding new specimens ...outside the supposed distribution boundary, where ever they might be.

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

16 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

I remember seeing them around Pinellas, Manatee, and Sarasota counties as well.  That said,  i always try to go by  the " Research Grade " observations since, even as good as iNat Obs. can be, there are plenty of terrible ones as well and someone not well versed on palms / etc else could mistake a juvenile S. palmetto for S. minor.

Numerous times i have seen other plants in an area where they weren't yet documented in iNat's database as well ( Adding my observations to the  site's data base  = something i need to do myself one of these days, haha ) ...So there is a little wiggle room on questioning accuracy of  valid observations sometimes. 

Again though, like you, i have no doubts S. minor has a wider distribution than some might suggest.. Like Washingtonia,  Birds, and other critters who may aid in seed dispersal can move Sabal seed around pretty efficiently ..Just a matter of finding new specimens ...outside the supposed distribution boundary, where ever they might be.

Oh def agree.   Washingtonia Robusta are not “native” here in Pineallas or Florida at all, but they are are naturalised here.  While that does “count” as “distribution”, it really does not count in terms of “native distribution” though.   I’m that respect I can understand why some maps don’t show certain plants in places we know they grow “wild”.   
 

however, the n the case of S. Minor, I think they are native to more areas than the maps suggest.   I’m 100% sure they are native to Pinallas.  The one caviat being that there is very very little “natural” / undeveloped lane left in pinealls.  Perhaps it may be considered extirpated because of that.  Then again, I know they do grow in many of the natural areas that’s are left.  Who knows really.    I guess either most have not looked  or paid attention etc, or no one has cared enough to actually do any real fact finding.   In the end those of us that live here and cate know they’re here.  Haha.  

[PalmTreeDude]

I keep forgetting about this post from how old it is! I just looked at iNaturalist and it seems that Sabal minor goes slightly farther north in the Mississippi Embayment than the original map shows. The map could definitely use some tweaking, it’s very generalized. For example the whole Virginia portion of the map is still debatable and if they are there they definitely don’t go that far inland, while some areas are left out. It’s cool to see discussion of how far south they go, I never think about their southern limit as much! 

Edited October 8, 2022 by PalmTreeDude
Added Words

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

On 10/4/2022 at 2:12 PM, DCA_Palm_Fan said:

That map seems odd / off to me.  I live here and I know 100% certain there re one ty of wild S Minor in Pinellas county.   I have seen them in parks / preserves in SWFL as well.   They grow in some pretty hot / tropical areas down here, usually shaded by much larger oaks etc.  

You may be correct, it’s just that no herbarium specimens have been collected in situ from those counties.  

[L.A.M.]

It looks like there have been credible observations of dwarf palmettos in Tennessee and Virginia. Maybe even hiding in less developed areas of Hamilton County and Virginia Beach. It seems that the maps showing palms native to Dade County Ga. and Whitfield County Ga. saw observations really close to the state line but mistook which side they were on and failed to zoom in enough to be sure. https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/202081370

I'm surprised by the lack of observations in Hornsby Tenn., though! Google street view went through the main streets downtown there in 2023, and that place is crawling with them! Perhaps it's time to see whether there may be biologists at MTSU or something to go on a field trip to document the Hornsby ones. I just noticed, apparently Google went through again in February 2024, and they survived the sub-zero cold wave we had in late January without much damage. https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2259493,-88.8295889,3a,67.3y,114.62h,77.29t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sb1KX4RYk1npI5l24rQwA8w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

More Hornsby palmettos: https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2266643,-88.8294059,3a,48.8y,272.77h,80.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sCTymCXuR6NvFcfGXpomafQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

Near the school: https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2267667,-88.8305149,3a,75y,119.1h,70.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssTFD27rXd7qRt1opQnHDPg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

More near the school: https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2264161,-88.8305996,3a,36.9y,111.66h,78.16t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suwJnHsFjC0wkZt889Xm0hg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

Even more near the school! How'd I miss those before? https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2269451,-88.830468,3a,16.3y,127.65h,82.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXGSnzvkffjqoGPK-T9IcoQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

Edited March 12, 2024 by L.A.M.

[L.A.M.]

I couldn't find a single source documenting dwarf palmettos in Hardeman County, TN, and a February 2024 update of the street view in downtown Hornsby made it even clearer than it was in May 2023 that the ones in Hornsby are probably wild. I'm emailing the biology department at MTSU to see about them sending biologists for evaluation and documentation. I only thought to do this and looked into how to contact the biologists there a few days ago.

[Desert DAC]

On 3/11/2024 at 10:04 PM, L.A.M. said:

It looks like there have been credible observations of dwarf palmettos in Tennessee and Virginia. Maybe even hiding in less developed areas of Hamilton County and Virginia Beach. I.........

I'm surprised by the lack of observations in Hornsby Tenn., though! Google street view went through the main streets downtown there in 2023, and that place is crawling with them! Perhaps it's time to see whether there may be biologists at MTSU or something to go on a field trip to document the Hornsby ones. I just noticed, apparently Google went through again in February 2024, and they survived the sub-zero cold wave we had in late January without .........

More Hornsby palmettos: https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2266643,-88.8294059,3a,48.8y,272.77h,80.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sCTymCXuR6NvFcfGXpomafQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu .....

Some Sabal minor look like they were planted, but others (even if planted) are volunteering around nearby structures and on nearby land. Like at least one in Hornsby. Which only makes sense, considering the climate, terrain, and location - even if farther inland.

Good work - it's helpful that you're paying attention to Sabal minor now. Many people don't notice certain plants when they are present, so they don't document those plants. Then, at some future date, those plants are all gone without any record of that place's natural or at least horticultural history.