New and Updated Sabal Minor Range?

[PalmTreeDude]

So I found this new map that is suppose to be an updated 2016 native range map of the Sabal minor, take a look and tell me what you think.

 

 

 

[PalmatierMeg]

Interesting. I'm not aware that S. minor occurred naturally so far south in FL. My impression always was that they were native in N FL. They appear to survive and do well here in SWFL (I have several varieties of S. minor).

[Ed in Houston]

I have doubts that they are native to the Rio Grande Valley in Texas.

Ed in Houston

[hbernstein]

You don't find them growing naturally in extreme south Florida.

[PalmTreeDude]

19 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Interesting. I'm not aware that S. minor occurred naturally so far south in FL. My impression always was that they were native in N FL. They appear to survive and do well here in SWFL (I have several varieties of S. minor).

 

22 minutes ago, hbernstein said:

You don't find them growing naturally in extreme south Florida.

I have seen some in the woods near Fort Lauderdale, not sure how they got there, if they where natural or if someone threw seeds everywhere or something. But they where there when I looked in the woods and they certainly where not Saw Palmettos. Nor where they young Sabal Palmetto.

Edited July 7, 2016 by PalmTreeDude
Typo

[PalmTreeDude]

Here is a map of the range in Florida. I got this one from http://www.fnps.org/plants/plant/sabal-minor

 

 

[topwater]

I drove from Houston to New Orleans last fall, south LA is absolutely crawling with S. minor.  Much to my disappointment, I didn't see any of the trunking variants that Louisiana is known for. 

[sarasota alex]

On 7/6/2016, 4:38:35, PalmTreeDude said:

So I found this new map that is suppose to be an updated 2016 native range map of the Sabal minor, take a look and tell me what you think.

 

 

 

I doubt it's that widespread in TX and NC. In FL it's doesn't extend that far south. As for VA. I think it's very possible that it may be native there, but I have not seen any record of that. The Sabal minor Wikipedia article includes Virginia, however the reference given is not up to Wikipedia standards. It references a single footnote line in the 'Studies on the Geography of Virginia' Thesis published in 1907 that simply states that the Great Dismal Swamp is the northern limit of the Dwarf Palmetto. And there are no references in there to where that statement is coming from. 'Report on a botanical survey of the Dismal Swamp region' published in 1901 states the northern limit of Sabal minor to be 34N latitude, way south of the Virginia border. Also Sabal minor are no longer considered endemic to the US with a confirmed population in NE Mexico. 

[sarasota alex]

11 hours ago, PalmTreeDude said:

 

I have seen some in the woods near Fort Lauderdale, not sure how they got there, if they where natural or if someone threw seeds everywhere or something. But they where there when I looked in the woods and they certainly where not Saw Palmettos. Nor where they young Sabal Palmetto.

Are you sure those weren't Sabal etonia?

[PalmTreeDude]

10 hours ago, sarasota alex said:

Are you sure those weren't Sabal etonia?

Didn't look like it, none of the leaves where curled. They looked like Sabal minor to me.

[PalmTreeDude]

I found another that includes VA. 

[Walt]

Sabal minor has been reported (by the University of Florida) to grow in Highlands County, but I've only observed them growing in Highlands Hammock State Park. The park only allows native palms and plants in the park. All others are constantly being removed by volunteer workers. As such, I believe Sabal minor is native to the park. But the park is generally wet (lots of swamp area and low ground). Outside the park the soil is dry and sandy, and that's where you see mainly Sabal etonia.

When I bought my property 18 years ago, the only native palms were Sabal palmetto, Sabal etonia, and Serenoa repens. I only have two Sabal minors in the ground, and both were planted by me.

Below is a YouTube video I uploaded today featuring some of the Sabal etonia growing about my property:

 

[GeorgiaPalms]

Regarding the northern part of their range in Georgia I know they do grow quite far north and basically into the southern part of the Atlanta area. I have seen them wild about 50 miles south of my home in the Monticello Glades around Monticello GA. They do reach up into the piedmont region of the state and there could possibly be some other populations which are undocumented growing along some creeks a bit further north yet. The map you have posted that includes VA shows them definitely wild around Atlanta and northern metro Atlanta, if they do grow this far north into the piedmont I am yet to find any wild populations, but I do see them used in landscape plantings, although they are quite underused as a landscape plant. There could be some wild populations in the northern Atlanta area but if there are, I am unaware of them. The ones I have seen in the northern extremities of their range do prefer a less clay based soil it seems, and as you get further into the piedmont the clay based soils do become the dominant substrate in the state of GA. I have attached a few photos of the Sabal Minors I have seen growing in the northern extremes of their range.

 

[Bigfish]

They can be found near Centre, AL near Weiss Lake.

[awkonradi]

On 11/4/2016, 3:14:12, PalmTreeDude said:

I found another that includes VA. 

Not an expert here, but I think this range in TX is more realistic.  I thought their westernmost extreme was at Palmetto State Park, which is a little east of San Antonio.

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

I've seen these maps before. Didn't you post these in another forum on here?  Maybe the cold hardy one?   As i said before,  VA seems far overdone to me.  I believe they were once native here, and if there are any left, they would be in extreme far southeast VA.  VB south and maybe over in and around the Dismal Swamp area.  That said, I would love to see some real data and photos of them in those areas.  I still have not seen any to date.  They seem more scarce than Alligators in Southeast VA.  They are DEFINITELY there, but they stay well hidden in the great dismal swamp.  We know they are here because they are spotted in parts of Norfolk and Chesapeake from time to time.   I believe as others do that VA knows they are here, but they refuse to officially acknowledge them because they are nationally protected species.  An official recognition by VA would force them to spend millions of dollars to implement protection programs. They seem to have a similar range to S. Minor.  Those maps seen to have S. minor up into the Gloucester area and Williamsburg, on over up the bottom of the Del Mar Va  peninsula.  I doubt they are native that far north. At least presently.  

[PalmTreeDude]

32 minutes ago, DCA_Palm_Fan said:

I've seen these maps before. Didn't you post these in another forum on here?  Maybe the cold hardy one?   As i said before,  VA seems far overdone to me.  I believe they were once native here, and if there are any left, they would be in extreme far southeast VA.  VB south and maybe over in and around the Dismal Swamp area.  That said, I would love to see some real data and photos of them in those areas.  I still have not seen any to date.  They seem more scarce than Alligators in Southeast VA.  They are DEFINITELY there, but they stay well hidden in the great dismal swamp.  We know they are here because they are spotted in parts of Norfolk and Chesapeake from time to time.   I believe as others do that VA knows they are here, but they refuse to officially acknowledge them because they are nationally protected species.  An official recognition by VA would force them to spend millions of dollars to implement protection programs. They seem to have a similar range to S. Minor.  Those maps seen to have S. minor up into the Gloucester area and Williamsburg, on over up the bottom of the Del Mar Va  peninsula.  I doubt they are native that far north. At least presently.  

Yeah, I posted these on a thread about the Sabal palmetto range. The northern most natural stand of Spanish Moss is in First Landing State Park in Virginia Beach, and it is even less hardy than Sabal minor. Virginia Beach is like the boarder of the true south, Alligators, Spanish Moss, Live Oaks, and possibly Sabal minor. I definitely think that more research needs to be done. It seems to be the right climate.

[PalmTreeDude]

1 hour ago, awkonradi said:

Not an expert here, but I think this range in TX is more realistic.  I thought their westernmost extreme was at Palmetto State Park, which is a little east of San Antonio.

I like this one better than the other map as well. 

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

14 hours ago, PalmTreeDude said:

Yeah, I posted these on a thread about the Sabal palmetto range. The northern most natural stand of Spanish Moss is in First Landing State Park in Virginia Beach, and it is even less hardy than Sabal minor. Virginia Beach is like the boarder of the true south, Alligators, Spanish Moss, Live Oaks, and possibly Sabal minor. I definitely think that more research needs to be done. It seems to be the right climate.

I certainly agree on all points.  I've been to First Landing State Park many times.  I love it there.  Hope to get a visit in when I head to Va Beach on Friday for the holidays.   I will be doing some driving around and checking out palms too.  

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

On ‎7‎/‎6‎/‎2016‎ ‎5‎:‎18‎:‎51‎, Ed in Houston said:

 I have doubts that they are native to the Rio Grande Valley in Texas.

Ed in Houston

Ed,

I think you are right.  In fact, I have never seen them growing naturally south of the Victoria area.  They are very common around Houston, Beaumont, and throughout Southeast Texas.

John

P.S.  The Texas Palm (Sabal Mexicana) though, used to be quite common in the Rio Grande Valley with them growing in a subtropical palm forest along the Rio Grande that covered about 80,000 acres about 150 years ago.  Now only about 1% to 2% of the original palm forest exists down there.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

On ‎11‎/‎4‎/‎2016‎ ‎5‎:‎14‎:‎12‎, PalmTreeDude said:

I found another that includes VA. 

This is certainly a more accurate map, at least for the Texas part of its range.

[buffy]

There are some Sabal minor populations in Tamaulipas State, Mexico. In fact, I have a few small Mexican minors growing at the house. 

[PalmTreeDude]

On 12/21/2016, 10:43:05, buffy said:

There are some Sabal minor populations in Tamaulipas State, Mexico. In fact, I have a few small Mexican minors growing at the house. 

Interesting! Do you have any pictures?

[buffy]

They're not interesting yet. Need a few years to see.

[climate change virginia]

On 11/4/2016 at 6:14 PM, PalmTreeDude said:

I found another that includes VA. 

That map is not accurate I go in the woods all the time with my friend we explore all over the lake I live near there is no sabal minors (I wish there were though). I live in the southern extent suburbs of dc that map shows where I live we live right on the border of the green on that map. That map is wrong.

[Austinpalm]

On 11/4/2016 at 5:14 PM, PalmTreeDude said:

I found another that includes VA. 

This map is slightly off for Texas as Sabal minor continues west to near the headwaters of the Guadalupe River near Boerne.  Someone was selling a variety of S. minor from Welfare, Texas which is located about 50 miles northwest of San Antonio.  I personally have seen them along the Guadalupe River around Boerne. I agree that the southern cutoff in Texas is somewhere between Victoria and Corpus Christi.  I have seen what appear to be Sabal along the Nueces River at Labonte Park in Corpus Christi but was unable to tell which species it was due to the size of the plant and the speed at which I was driving.    Additionally, Sabal minor are present in the Dallas areas which would seem to extend the range shown on the map just a bit to the northwest in north Texas.  

[PalmTreeDude]

On 11/6/2020 at 11:31 AM, climate change virginia said:

That map is not accurate I go in the woods all the time with my friend we explore all over the lake I live near there is no sabal minors (I wish there were though). I live in the southern extent suburbs of dc that map shows where I live we live right on the border of the green on that map. That map is wrong.

I actually don’t think any of these two maps I posted here (back in 2016) are very accurate. They seem to be made by the same person. 

[Landrum Kelly]

I have found two communities near the limits of their range. One was a few miles east of McCormick, South Carolina in 2002. Several plants there were in the eight- to ten-foot range.  The habitat was threatened by development just south of U. S. 378. The other community was in a perennially wet and sandy area west of Greensboro's Centennial Greenway Trail south of Gibson Park in High Point in 2019. These were low to the ground but doing pretty well.

[Scot from SC]

There are native populations in Greenwood County, South Carolina as well. 

[L.A.M.]

Has anyone else seen or at least heard about the wild Hardin County, TN Sabal minor population? Even I hadn't known until last night, although I wasn't surprised. I was expecting them to be in Marion, Bradley or Polk County rather than Hardin County, but that was on the basis of their presence around Weiss Lake in Alabama and Georgia and the fact that they probably wouldn't go unnoticed in Shelby or Hamilton County. I already knew that we have nearly identical ecology, climatology and geology to parts of their native range with no obstacle to prevent their natural entry, not to mention them being native to Oklahoma and probably Virginia and close to Tennessee in four separate states (Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi and Arkansas). Unlike the Oklahoma and Virginia dwarf palmettos, the Tennessee ones are even in plain sight; someone else made a thread about it, too.

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.138441,-88.2522552,3a,50.4y,164.06h,70.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLQiHGGURGiyaDLjPEB0XaQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I even sent an email to the USDA to give input on their oversight of the wild palmettos not only in Hardin County, TN but also Cherokee County, AL. I wasn't sure whether it was simply an oversight on their part or a lack of tangible proof. However, at least we have stronger evidence for the Weiss Lake palmettos than the Virginia ones (given news articles about the former dating back to 2008), and now we have concrete evidence for the Tennessee palmettos! It's even more remarkable that the Tennessee palmettos are in plain sight unlike the McCurtain, Virginia (if they exist) and Cherokee County/Weiss Lake palmettos, which is a rarity even in places like Arkansas and North Carolina that they're far more widespread than in OK, TN and VA. Someone needs to make a 2022 or 2023 map showing the Weiss and Pickwick Lake populations soon!

[SeanK]

I have read more than once that S.minor is found "throughout" Florida. I guess "throughout" holds different meaning for horticultural authors than for me. I have only actually seen it in NW Florida. Of course, I have seen it east of I95 in GA and the Carolinas so I suppose that it must be around JAX. I haven't even seen it around St. Augustine. 

[ruskinPalms]

I think this might be a Sabal minor growing in the muck in the drainage ditch behind my house (Parrish, FL). The fronds have always been less costapalmate than Sabal palmettos I have seen at the same size and there is no hint of a trunk. It is submerged in water 95% of the year. Maybe it is palmetto and that is how they look when mostly submerged. I’m the worst when it comes to identifying Sabals. 
 

[Bigfish]

7 minutes ago, L.A.M. said:

Has anyone else seen or at least heard about the wild Hardin County, TN Sabal minor population? Even I hadn't known until last night, although I wasn't surprised. I was expecting them to be in Marion, Bradley or Polk County rather than Hardin County, but that was on the basis of their presence around Weiss Lake in Alabama and Georgia and the fact that they probably wouldn't go unnoticed in Shelby or Hamilton County. I already knew that we have nearly identical ecology, climatology and geology to parts of their native range with no obstacle to prevent their natural entry, not to mention them being native to Oklahoma and probably Virginia and close to Tennessee in four separate states (Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi and Arkansas). Unlike the Oklahoma and Virginia dwarf palmettos, the Tennessee ones are even in plain sight; someone else made a thread about it, too.

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.138441,-88.2522552,3a,50.4y,164.06h,70.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLQiHGGURGiyaDLjPEB0XaQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I even sent an email to the USDA to give input on their oversight of the wild palmettos not only in Hardin County, TN but also Cherokee County, AL. I wasn't sure whether it was simply an oversight on their part or a lack of tangible proof. However, at least we have stronger evidence for the Weiss Lake palmettos than the Virginia ones (given news articles about the former dating back to 2008), and now we have concrete evidence for the Tennessee palmettos! It's even more remarkable that the Tennessee palmettos are in plain sight unlike the McCurtain, Virginia (if they exist) and Cherokee County/Weiss Lake palmettos, which is a rarity even in places like Arkansas and North Carolina that they're far more widespread than in OK, TN and VA. Someone needs to make a 2022 or 2023 map showing the Weiss and Pickwick Lake populations soon!

Those are surrounded by concrete blocks, and are at the road...how can someone think that they are a wild population? 

I have seen the Cherokee County, AL Sabal minor and collected seeds in 2018.  They are in several spots in the area near Centre, AL. 

[teddytn]

I think I like the idea of knowing sabal minors and needle palm can naturalize here in TN, I’ve read all the reports of sabals being found way farther north than they currently are during the civil war (using them or the first appearance of them as location markers). Even before when Europeans would spot “palmittos” in land surveys farther north. But honestly If you look at the types of soil and the proximity to the ocean that the current accepted range for Sabal minor is, TN just doesn’t have the characteristics of housing a wild population in my humble opinion. I love Sabal minor by the way 😂

[L.A.M.]

8 hours ago, teddytn said:

I think I like the idea of knowing sabal minors and needle palm can naturalize here in TN, I’ve read all the reports of sabals being found way farther north than they currently are during the civil war (using them or the first appearance of them as location markers). Even before when Europeans would spot “palmittos” in land surveys farther north. But honestly If you look at the types of soil and the proximity to the ocean that the current accepted range for Sabal minor is, TN just doesn’t have the characteristics of housing a wild population in my humble opinion. I love Sabal minor by the way 😂

I disagree. Parts of their range extend not far south of Little Rock and into the Coosa Valley of Alabama and Appalachian Foothills of Mississippi. Those areas have very similar geology to Tennessee, and the latter two areas even fall into exactly the same geological areas as parts of Tennessee. The Highland Rim, West Tennessee Upands, Pennyroyal Plateau and Appalachian Foothills are all the same, and the Coosa Valley extends into Bradley and Polk counties of Tennessee and is part of the larger Great Appalachian Valley. Not to mention that the majority of West Tennessee is in the Gulf Coastal Plain anyways, and river floodplains exist virtually everywhere; the coastal plain even extends all the way to the Jackson Purchase region, the Missouri Bootheel and Southern Illinois, so coastal plains can exist far inland if river deltas fill up an old bay. (This happened with California's Central Valley and the Oklahoma/Texas Red River bottomlands, too.)

Even when you account for geology alongside ecology and climatology, there's simply no reason other than chance for them to be entirely absent from Tennessee; my only reason left for skepticism was lack of observation and knowing that most things are partly down to chance. Granted, I would be surprised if they'd go unnoticed in Shelby or Hamilton County, but there are still Hardin (where they've presumably been sighted in the ditch), Marion, Bradley and Polk counties. Not to mention the other southern border counties of Tennessee; it's just that I found those four the most likely.

Edited September 24, 2022 by L.A.M.

[teddytn]

13 hours ago, L.A.M. said:

I disagree. Parts of their range extend not far south of Little Rock and into the Coosa Valley of Alabama and Appalachian Foothills of Mississippi. Those areas have very similar geology to Tennessee, and the latter two areas even fall into exactly the same geological areas as parts of Tennessee. The Highland Rim, West Tennessee Upands, Pennyroyal Plateau and Appalachian Foothills are all the same, and the Coosa Valley extends into Bradley and Polk counties of Tennessee and is part of the larger Great Appalachian Valley. Not to mention that the majority of West Tennessee is in the Gulf Coastal Plain anyways, and river floodplains exist virtually everywhere; the coastal plain even extends all the way to the Jackson Purchase region, the Missouri Bootheel and Southern Illinois, so coastal plains can exist far inland if river deltas fill up an old bay. (This happened with California's Central Valley and the Oklahoma/Texas Red River bottomlands, too.)

Even when you account for geology alongside ecology and climatology, there's simply no reason other than chance for them to be entirely absent from Tennessee; my only reason left for skepticism was lack of observation and knowing that most things are partly down to chance. Granted, I would be surprised if they'd go unnoticed in Shelby or Hamilton County, but there are still Hardin (where they've presumably been sighted in the ditch), Marion, Bradley and Polk counties. Not to mention the other southern border counties of Tennessee; it's just that I found those four the most likely.

I also disagree. Seems like someone would have noticed a palm tree in Tennessee before now….the surrounding states south and east are only sparsely populated with native sabals. Most likely this is a case of naturalization not a just discovered new species of palm tree. 

[kinzyjr]

This is the map of @PalmTreeDude's original post with the light blue indicating my approximation of where they could potentially be hiding or introduced successfully.

[L.A.M.]

52 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

This is the map of @PalmTreeDude's original post with the light blue indicating my approximation of where they could potentially be hiding or introduced successfully.

That's a good map! Nonetheless, I'd cut WAY back on the "potentially hiding" bit, and potential for successful introduction should extend way deeper into Tennessee, the Carolinas, Georgia, Oklahoma and Kentucky but not so far into Missouri, Illinois, New York and New England, nor Alaska at all.

I'd say that climate and ecology play a much bigger role than geology, given the presence of potentially favorable river floodplains/terraces (which have deep, fertile and poorly-draining soil) virtually everywhere, and even if geology was more significant, it's worth considering that parts of northern Alabama and Georgia are more similar to parts of Kentucky and Southern Illinois than to the immediate coastal areas of Alabama and Georgia (given Tennessee's thin shape north-south) both geologically as well as ecologically and climatologically. Probably the only Tennessean county that's too cold everywhere would be Johnson County, and even that mostly due to its elevation and the fact that Watauga Dam flooded the more moderate areas that probably once existed; much of the border regions of Kentucky and state's western half are similar as well, not to mention the Missouri Bootheel and Shawnee Hills. Last but not least, the ground freezes north of St. Louis, New York City and Carbondale, pretty much ruling out anywhere in Central Illinois, north of the Missouri River or in New England/New York apart from certain islands (e.g. Long Island, Nantucket) and maybe Cape Cod as theoretically suitable territory (excluding artificial microclimates, of course). Northern New Jersey's ground freezes too except right on the coast, unlike southern New Jersey's. As for the Carolinas and Georgia, the Piedmont, Foothills and Blue Ridge regions are virtually the same geologically, with the only major difference being that the old igneous/metamorphic mountains are more severely eroded the closer to the coast you get. Also, our ecology is well-adapted to the presence of dwarf palmettos; we have almost all of the same other species, flora and fauna, and the native birds and mammals love the berries, making it plausible indeed for them to be hiding in southern Tennessee but also making introduction into northern Tennessee and southern/western Kentucky more plausible (even likely) than your map suggests.

Edited September 25, 2022 by L.A.M.

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

I can tell you for a fact they are growing and naturalizing in and around the Washington DC Area (in the city & closer in suburbs), as well as in southeastern VA.     I planted one 12 years ago on the south side of my then home in Alexandria VA  and it is still there, pretty big and sets seeds regularly. 

I am still all bit certain sabals of multiple species were native to extreme SE Virginia.   The range of climates S. Minor & even S. Palmetto along with rhaphidophyllum Hystrix will grow in is pretty vast and quite remarkable.  From the tropical southern FL all the way up to the much more temperate sub tropical Virginia and even Far north of there for needle palms.  
 

I am sure as these zones creep further north little by little we’ll see more and more kinds of palms being grown year round in more northerly climes.  

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

Sabal minor has not been found in all Florida counties.  Here's a reference.

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/plant.aspx?id=2287