Cocos nucifera on Madeira Island

[Cluster]

Pargomad I think the canary islands are very beautiful indeed, but I find Madeira more beautiful and dramatic personally and I am not the only one. Having said that our beaches (both islands) could use some coconut love and that would definitely increase their appeal and look as I have already mentioned. Here some pictures I took during the vacations:):

and a picture not taken by me:

a couple of videos that show a tiny bit of the island mountains for the ones interested:

Edited October 17, 2014 by Cluster

[Stelios]

Pargomad I think the canary islands are very beautiful indeed, but I find Madeira more beautiful and dramatic personally and I am not the only one. Having said that our beaches (both islands) could use some coconut love and that would definitely increase their appeal and look as I have already mentioned. Here some pictures I took during the vacations:):

and a picture not taken by me:

Now this is a very beautiful photo. It looks like Hawaii to me.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Stelios

[Stelios]

However I agree that coconuts close to the black sand beaches would greatly improve the tropical vibe and look of them.

A very nice candidate for those coconuts though would be the next island from Madeira archipelago, Porto Santo (which is my favorite beach and the best I have ever been in to and also for many people that travel trough the world):

They have to plant coconut palms on this beach. It will be really amazing. I have to agree that this is one of the most beautiful beaches.

[Pargomad]

Yes Madeira is beautiful but from my point of view the archipelago doesn't reach the Canary islands :

Here's why:

There is a problem with the trees and plants they plant and sell there. For example: there is a lot of London planetrees, poplars and other trees from northern Europe on the island, even on the coast! Madeira is supposed to be an african subtropical archipelago, so we should see more tropical or subtropical trees like coconut trees for example. On the Canary islands you will never see those trees on the coast, it's completely the opposite, you will see coconut trees, roystoneas, delonix regias etc...

One example: Here you can see the london planetrees on the left, just behind the coconut trees. It gives you the impression you're in Paris or London, not on a exotic island... and in the fall it's worse because they loose their leaves and become red, just like here in Switzerland. I noticed that in every village or city on the island there is at least one london planetree, the worst case is in Machico and Funchal, where there is a lot of them.

You can see the contrast between the subtropical trees, palms and the planetrees just behind. Ugly...

The madeirans should follow their more evolved neighbours:

Here go some pictures from the streets of Santa Cruz de tenerife:

In every city or village you can see trees such as Ficus benjamina, delonix regia, jacarandas, roystoneas... etc. You won't see Poplars or london planetrees like in Funchal.

For the second island, Porto santo, which has a semi arid climate, looks more like a mediterrean island due to the Pinus pinea and halenpsis, and the cumpressus Macrocarpa forest. They plant 40-50 years ago... When I saw the pictures of Porto santo's cocos, I noticed they were just next to Mediterranean Pinetrees... weird

For the comparison here is Lanzarote: beaches with coconut trees and other palmtrees;

And now Vila Baleira with its Phoenix Palms and Pinetrees:

Even southern Spain has a more tropical look than this...

That is why I prefer the Canary islands to Madeira.

[Cluster]

I understand what you mean:), for me those arguments are not that important compared to the overall landscape and Porto Santo/Madeira looks better to me with or without coconuts:). There are a lot of roystoneas, archontophoenix cunninghamiana and other tropical looking palms in Funchal and I have never seen a place with so many bananas, every person that has a house has one:). Even on this same forum people that do not know the island commented it looks quiet tropical even though you are right that they also use a lot of northern trees. I think it adds some diversity for which Funchal is known, a city that looks like a garden with a lot of different flowers/trees/plants. You can be in one place that resembles Scotland (high altitudes) with all the fog and typical trees and then 30 minutes after you are near the coast with plenty of sun, bananas,palms, mangoes, huge cliffs and overall tropic in appearance zones or for example desert areas contrasting with green areas with more than 3200 mm per year of rain and so on. For a person that does not know Madeira you can fool them into thinking you are in another island very easily.

I would prefer many parts to look more tropical for sure (not all necessarily) and my favorite palm is the coconut tree, but these are very minor details compared to the rest of the island as a whole. For me having a tropical or a northern look by itself does not mean much, both can be beautiful (or not so much) in their own way.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Cluster

[Stelios]

I was very impressed with some of the photos of Madeira and Porto Santo which I saw. I think Madeira is very green and it looks really tropical. As for the plants I think with the time more and more people will plant palms and other tropicals. Is the same thing which I see here in Cyprus. People here till the recent years they were not interested in planting anything than the traditional plants and trees, the last couple of decades they started to plant more tropicals. You can still see the coniferous at the sea level but the majority of the trees now are ficus, delonix regia and a lot of washingtonias. We also have in the west part of the island for about 4 decades now the commercial banana plantations but now you see them in many of the private gardens. Many people also plant a lot of papayas which are growing super fast here, mangoes, guavas, avocados and in almost every garden you can see plumerias (some of them are very big). About palms queens and washingtonias are in almost every garden, but the last few years I stared to see more royals, ravenea rivularis, spindles and some foxtails. There are many palms which can grow here but it will take time to see more of them. Only when people see nice tropical gardens in their area they will want to have the same. So I believe in Madeira with the years you will see more and more tropical look especially on the beach.

[Cluster]

I think you are right Stelios I just hope I still see the "progress" !. Many people have those palms/trees you mentioned on Madeira something you do not see as often here in Lisbon.

At the moment I am still in shock knowing coconuts are growing in public gardens in our islands, the ones I saw in the port look somehow similar (though younger still) to the ones Pargomad showed. The pictures from Lanzarote give me hope that someday some of our coastal area could have such an amazing palm. In February 2010 there was a major flood in Funchal (search and you will be amazed) and apparently those coconuts had no issues or they would not be there in 2013 when I took pictures of them so another reason to have hope.

The only thing that remains to be seen is if they can fruit, and if they can't why would that be? If these coconuts were not giving fruit a lot of things could explain it, for example: as they are in a public place we do not know if they are pruning the flowers or taking out the leaves and doing it too early. We also do not know if they have proper water during summer and other factors. If all fails and the reason can only be due to lack of heat then there is still the warmer parts of the island (with mean temperatures above anything in Europe except canaries) to test.

[Cluster]

I just found a new picture of what seems to be a coconut near the beach, but a bit of context first. Since the flood in 2010 the government decided to change the way the mountain waters were being directed through the sea. To make a big story short we ended up with major constructions around the port and the pebble stone beach that was there. Now they opened the "new" beach in Funchal and are planting trees and palms around the zone.

Is this a coconut tree if so our wishes are slowly building up!

Edited October 17, 2014 by Cluster

[Pargomad]

You're right, there is another one just next to it. They are the survivors of the first coconut trees planted there before 2009, before they were taken off...

They were replaced by phoenix canariensis, poplars, but now with the new front sea they planted Roystoneas, delonix regias as you can see on this picture:

[Pargomad]

I found a picture on 360 cities where you can see one of the four cocos on Porto santo island, here's the link, enjoy !

https://www.360cities.net/image/miradouro-do-moinho-porto-santo-island-portugal#641.98,9.02,13.1

Next to it you can see mediterranean Pinetrees... weird ahah

I hope I can find some pics of the 3 other cocos.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Pargomad

[nick]

I was very impressed with some of the photos of Madeira and Porto Santo which I saw. I think Madeira is very green and it looks really tropical. As for the plants I think with the time more and more people will plant palms and other tropicals. Is the same thing which I see here in Cyprus. People here till the recent years they were not interested in planting anything than the traditional plants and trees, the last couple of decades they started to plant more tropicals. You can still see the coniferous at the sea level but the majority of the trees now are ficus, delonix regia and a lot of washingtonias. We also have in the west part of the island for about 4 decades now the commercial banana plantations but now you see them in many of the private gardens. Many people also plant a lot of papayas which are growing super fast here, mangoes, guavas, avocados and in almost every garden you can see plumerias (some of them are very big). About palms queens and washingtonias are in almost every garden, but the last few years I stared to see more royals, ravenea rivularis, spindles and some foxtails. There are many palms which can grow here but it will take time to see more of them. Only when people see nice tropical gardens in their area they will want to have the same. So I believe in Madeira with the years you will see more and more tropical look especially on the beach.

Stelios, if you are successful with your coconut in Cyprus, it should also generate some copycats.

What's the name of the beach above "They have to plant coconut palms on this beach. It will be really amazing..." ?

Edited October 18, 2014 by nick

[Pargomad]

I've found a cocos in Gaula in a vacation house near the sea, and I think it has some coconuts growing on it, I'm not sure but you can see them on the last pic, they are quite big and yellow.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Pargomad

[Stelios]

I was very impressed with some of the photos of Madeira and Porto Santo which I saw. I think Madeira is very green and it looks really tropical. As for the plants I think with the time more and more people will plant palms and other tropicals. Is the same thing which I see here in Cyprus. People here till the recent years they were not interested in planting anything than the traditional plants and trees, the last couple of decades they started to plant more tropicals. You can still see the coniferous at the sea level but the majority of the trees now are ficus, delonix regia and a lot of washingtonias. We also have in the west part of the island for about 4 decades now the commercial banana plantations but now you see them in many of the private gardens. Many people also plant a lot of papayas which are growing super fast here, mangoes, guavas, avocados and in almost every garden you can see plumerias (some of them are very big). About palms queens and washingtonias are in almost every garden, but the last few years I stared to see more royals, ravenea rivularis, spindles and some foxtails. There are many palms which can grow here but it will take time to see more of them. Only when people see nice tropical gardens in their area they will want to have the same. So I believe in Madeira with the years you will see more and more tropical look especially on the beach.

Stelios, if you are successful with your coconut in Cyprus, it should also generate some copycats.

What's the name of the beach above "They have to plant coconut palms on this beach. It will be really amazing..." ?

I don't know the name. Is on the island of Porto Santo, next to Madeira. Cluster might know. It's a beautiful place.

As for my coconut I will try my best to grow it as big as possible.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Stelios

[Cluster]

Many replies I will try to address one by one!

Pargomad you should be hired as a detective the amount of information you can find:). I did not know till I found out that picture that there were more coconuts in Funchal other than the ones in the port. From what I understood these coconuts were planted just before 2009 and you say some of them were take off and now only that one I showed and another is still there(the picture I posted is has a couple of days apparently)? Why did they do that? I hope they put the others in some other place or gave them to hotels/people to take care of them.

Secondly good job again finding more coconuts at Gaula it looks super healthy.... actually I would like someone to comment on it having fruits as well. It looks to me Madeira has more coconuts than any of us were imagining.

Finally the Porto Santo coconut! You might just have proved the northern most zone where coconuts can grow possibly without heat aid during the winters at 33N! That coconut looks very happy to be honest. I am quiet sure Porto Santo is warmer than the more inland airport weather station at 80 meters above sea(262 feet) makes one believe and that explains why it grows so well in the southwest coast of Porto Santo.

[Cluster]

Nick that is just known as the Porto Santo beach (praia do Porto Santo in portuguese). Porto Santo is known as the golden island and it offers a nice contrast to Madeira even though it is just just nearby, if you pay attention to that picture between the main island and the leftt islet you can see the big sister Madeira far south!

Porto Santo has more than the main beach for water lovers though, in the north for example you have some of the most exotic natural swimming pools and other types of beaches (I believe some with black sand even):

Anyway concerning the main beach it was awarded in Portugal as one of our 7 wonders and it won against even our most beautiful beaches in continental south Portugal (Algarve beaches). If you look at the coconut in Porto Santo that Pargomad linked you can see it is right on that same beach!

In the promo video I linked before you can see some of the island and the beach.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Cluster

[Stelios]

Nice photos. Madeira is a really interesting place. What about the Azores. What are the chances for growing a coconut there? The islands look very green and beautiful, and I believe they never have very low temperatures. I think the climate is sub-tropical. What other palms could grow there?

[Cluster]

Azores I am not sure, maybe it is possible, it is warmer than Cyprus/south Crete or Lampedusa in the coldest month and their lows can't ever reach critical levels, but their mean temperatures are very low during the coldest month. What might kill a coconut there is not the instant death freeze but the lack of continuous heat during a tough period of days in the odd winter that comes every 5 years, for example.

The way I see it, might be possible but the mean temperature in the coldest month is slightly lower than San Diego where coconuts die all the time, however their record low is warmer than San Diego (but none of the zones should be instant death for a coconut in theory anyway unless people use more tender coconut varieties perhaps). With some heat aid during the hardest winters I believe it is possible but a public coconut growing more than 10 years might not be attainable, that is, unless you plant it in some place near the hot geysers of the Azores:). I think people have tried it before with no long term success (can't find the source where I read it now though), but who knows.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Cluster

[nick]

Cluster, thx for your clarification, lovely island!

[Stelios]

The Azores look like they have similar climate with the Lord Howe Island in Australia so growing Kentias all around the islands will give this coconut tropical look especially on the beaches. I think kentias could grow to be naturalized there too.

[Cluster]

I am glad you liked it Nick!

Yes Stelios Azores can probably grow anything Madeira can except perhaps some tropicals like the coconut(which is not a sub-tropical plant). Kentias would certainly grow there quiet nicely, but it is up to the population to want to spread that king of vegetation on the islands. Azores are more similar to Europe landscape even though their potential would allow them to grow/show a lot more things. Madeira already looks quiet different than the typical landscape but in many ways as discussed before they don't live up to their potential at all.

[DoomsDave]

Pedro/Cluster.

Wow!

Your pictures are superb! Keep it up! Welcome to Palm Talk!

Also, look for my PM.

dave

[Cluster]

Thank you again for the nice reception, I promise to post more pictures whenever I have the context:) I actually noticed something on one of the pictures I took of the green Malayan, might ask about it later on!

[Rafael]

The Azores look like they have similar climate with the Lord Howe Island in Australia so growing Kentias all around the islands will give this coconut tropical look especially on the beaches. I think kentias could grow to be naturalized there too.

Maybe you would be interested to follow this thread i am about to update.

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/43199-azores-portugal/

And of course the climate here is underestimated by the population concerning the species possible to be grown here...

[Cluster]

Rafael I read your thread and it is very interesting I hope you will show us some more soon:), our islands are getting more feedback than the mainland and they deserve it:). Just a note regarding the climates:

Lord Howe is more similar to Madeira than Azores (temperature wise) from what I could gather. As for the people that told you the temperatures never falls below 8 c in the Azores I take it they talk about a regular year as all the islands from the Azores archipelago have seen at least 6 c or below the last decade. I look forward to seeing more Azores Rafael!

Edited October 21, 2014 by Cluster

[Rafael]

Rafael I read your thread and it is very interesting I hope you will show us some more soon:), our islands are getting more feedback than the mainland and they deserve it:). Just a note regarding the climates:

Lord Howe is more similar to Madeira than Azores (temperature wise) from what I could gather. As for the people that told you the temperatures never falls below 8 c in the Azores I take it they talk about a regular year as all the islands from the Azores archipelago have seen at least 6 c or below the last decade. I look forward to seeing more Azores Rafael!

Thanks Pedro.

As you have checked howeas, even belmoreana, thrive here.

And i find this climate more similar to Lord Howe's than the one is Madeira, which has higher temps.

And the minimum temps i was refering to are officially registered.

I am living now in Angra do Heroismo, facing south.

Congrats for this beautifull thread!

[Cluster]

Rafael look for example this last January: go to the 5th page: http://www.ipma.pt/resources.www/docs/im.publicacoes/edicoes.online/20140321/HMIuQtacpWcgthwBfugh/cli_20140101_20140131_pcl_mm_az_pt.pdf

That is why they are probably mistaken.

Yes I did notice the Howeas which was what they were asking before:). I think Azores can grow more things than any of our mainland areas even Algarve!

Edited October 21, 2014 by Cluster

[Rafael]

As you must know real temps never drop so low as official data shows.

Anyhow those data tell us minimum temps 7,3. I was refering to 8/9. Not a big difference...

I am in touch with botanists here and i was told about the mild climate, even during the months of January and february.

With very reasonable medium temps during the days.

And off course this micro-climate is better than Algarve's, where temps might drop below 2c in the winter.

The climate here allows to grow much tropical stuff, i am sure about it. in sheltered spots, off course, or next to the sea.

In the mainland i am growing lots of 10a and even 10b stuff at 42N...

[Cluster]

That is not the point Rafael any place affected by the urban heat is obviously hotter but if we do not have a reference point (good weather stations that try to mitigate that and follow a standard) no one can really talk about zones and it is just micro climates of each other houses. The lowest recorded temperature in Angra official station from 1970 till now is 3.7 c and that is amazing compared to -1.2 in Algarve (Faro) even the warmest regions of Florida have those kind of lows recorded:). With those temperatures you are actually zone 11 Rafael.

Azores have very mild climate all over the year and in a regular year the official stations do not drop below that 9/8 like you mentioned. Anyway I was just trying to help because otherwise people lose a reference point and no one can compare regions anymore.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Cluster

[Rafael]

That is not the point Rafael any place affected by the urban heat is obviously hotter but if we do not have a reference point (good weather stations that try to mitigate that and follow a standard) no one can really talk about zones and it is just micro climates of each other houses. The lowest recorded temperature in Angra official station from 1970 till now is 3.7 c and that is amazing compared to -1.2 in Algarve (Faro) even the warmest regions of Florida have those kind of lows recorded:). With those temperatures you are actually zone 11 Rafael.

Azores have very mild climate all over the year and in a regular year the official stations do not drop below that 9/8 like you mentioned.

Yes and for what that matters when discussing cold and cool hardiness we usually ignore those official station data and focus in the climate or micro climate from where we live.

Thats what we've been doing here for years, mainly on "freeze damage data" section. I have been learning it here since 2009.

And even tropical stuff can withstand a single incursion to lower temps, in decades, as you know.

And i know i am in zone 11 here, i was refering to my gardens in the mainland.

Anyhow, this is Madeira's thread...

[Cluster]

I agree, also the official stations do not cover all the micro climates of a zone or an island, I am sure there are hotter natural areas in Terceira island (but without an official station to prove it) not affected by the urban effect like there are many in Madeira (south west coast). In Madeira I know there are because the fruits of mangoes are ripe 1.5 months to 2 months before Funchal and because people bring thermometers from places to places:).

As for tropical stuff, I am sure Azores can grow many Tropical fruits, probably not all like coconuts or breadfruit tree but who knows. In this case not due to the freeze damage (there is no freeze there), but due to extend periods of very low mean temperatures in the coldest years. Even this year or the last Santa Maria had 2 days with max temperatures below or equal to 12 C and remained "cold" for a week or so, this happens maybe every 5 years. Now if you give minor protection to the tree/palm during the coldest days, it is more than possible with such a warm climate, just my opinion watching warmer places like San Diego having all their cocos killed or the island of Raoul(though this last one we only have one occurrence, little more than that is known). In certain places they have died below 7 C other places like some parts of florida they can withstand -1 C but that works mainly because it gets warm very fast. The only thing to do is to try out:)

Edited October 21, 2014 by Cluster

[Cluster]

Browsing some of my pictures and zooming in further I saw something on the green Malayan dwarf coconut, probably from an earlier inflorescence, maybe its first. It appears to have some mini coconut developing:

Regarding this what about the coconut tree that Pargomad posted (post 92)?

[Pargomad]

Do you have any other pictures of Cocos or any other palm trees of Madeira ? I'm curious Ahahah I like your pictures Cluster

[Cluster]

As requested but first! Disclaimer I only recently started this hobby as a palm enthusiast:) and as so expect in the future to see something more dedicated to the palms themselves.

These pictures were taken mostly last year in Quinta do Lorde ( located in the small desert like east area) and Fajã dos Padres (I also had my first camera and was learning photography:p). Lastly from this year's I also took a picture of the Jamaican Tall influrescence from the port and it seems they cut one of its leaves:( also it seems to lack pollinators?

[Pargomad]

Nice pictures ! I bought my first camera last year so I could take nice pictures this summer in Lisbon. I know exactly what you re talking about !

For the Coconut palm in the marina, they cut their leaves in Summer (don't know why) and they look like pineapples. I noticed this two years ago and now every summer they cut them and then they look dead, as if they were suffering. But the rest of the year their leaves are quite big, acceptable and green.

[Cluster]

Since I am learning everyday here, I have read in some threads of coconuts that cutting their leaves harms them as they feed on them and in this picture I actually see at least 2 of them cut:(. If this is indeed true how can they grow well or fruit or have nice leaves with this? Also look at the Malayan green in the first post (picture taken this year) and then post number 7 (taken one year ago), the more recent picture shows a cut one and despite it being more mature tan last year's, last year's looks better with all those leaves...

Edited October 23, 2014 by Cluster

[Stelios]

It will be interesting to see some fruiting coconut trees in Madeira. But the way they trim the public trees there are more chances to get mature fruits from palms in private gardens. And it would be also interesting to see if the fruits from the most northern grown coconuts in the world germinate and if they will create a more cold hardy variety.

[Cluster]

Stelios so you agree that this trimming is not helping the fruit at all? I ask this because I am really clueless just starting out and that is the info I gathered:)

Tonight I show you guys a different type of picture. Many of you might not know but one week ago there was a major event due to rain around Madeira and the Canary islands. While I was browsing our meteo forums I found a photo that was taken near Madalena do mar (where Pargomad showed us some coconuts growing):

author: Sérgio Bettencourt:

and guess what! 2 or 3 days after and both Madeira and Canary islands were invaded by the Sahara! Both archipelagos exceed 35 C( 95 f).

Photo Taken east side of Madeira Island:

author: Sílvio Silva

all the dust...

Unfortunately for the Canary Islands the storm was terrible, the rain destroyed a lot of stuff and killed people in Tenerife...

Edited October 25, 2014 by Cluster

[Cluster]

Oh and of course Stelios I guess at some point if they do germinate we could send seeds to other people:). Though I think it is just a regular green Malayan Dwarf we will have to wait. Would be much easier if people were planting them in private gardens...

[Pargomad]

Hey guys ! Do you remember that cocos in Madalena do mar under the ficus trees we talked about a few days ago... I've found a video on youtube (posted today) where you can see it, they cut off the ficus that was hiding it from the sun. It is now quite big and beautiful, I think this cocos is the only cocos planted on a beach on the island, its leaves compared to the ones of the marina are HUGE. Here goes a screenshot of the video, you can see our friend on the right.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Pargomad

[Cluster]

Looks nice I need to find the video now !