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Cocos nucifera on Madeira Island


Cluster
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Pargomad, to be honest with you, during the cold spell in February I wore a tshirt most days. The first day I arrived I went to our garden and fell asleep in the sunbeds for some minutes, I woke up sweating with the heat and I had only a tshirt. On the other hand it usually does not get extremely hot, only when Sahara winds strike us.

Alex, good to see you again! I wish we would get some avenue or a place filled with coconuts like that, one can wish!

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take a look at these coconuts in Bermuda. same climate as Madeira.....

https://goo.gl/maps/hEcHH

No my friend, it's not the same... by quite far. I'll explain you why.

Take a look at this:

dn1tlw.jpg

From December to May, the average minimum temperatures range from 15.5 to 16.9ºC

From June to September, the average maximum temperatures are above 80ºF(27ºC) and the average minimum are between 22.8 and 24.5ºC; and the monthly sunshine hours range from 240 to 279

And then take a look at this:

erh8hi.jpg

From December to May, the average minimum temperatures are under 15ºC... range from 13.4 to 15ºC

From June to September, the average maximum temperatures range from 23.4 to 26.4ºC and the average minimum are between 17.7 and 20ºC; and the monthly sunshine hours range from 198 to 260

Those coconuts are impossible in Madeira. Beside the warm temperatures, look at the difference of rain too. In Bermuda the sun shines also with more power.

In a climate with less than 20ºC annual average... coconuts won't grow up like that, and they will grow slowly than normal.

The climate difference, as you see, is quite important. That's talking about temperatures; talking about rain, it rains a lot more in Bermuda; making it a perfectly tropical climate, I won't classify that climate as subtropical... specially for the rain, but well. Both summers and winters are slightly/significantly warmer than in Funchal, and the sun shines for more hours. That's why i've said the thing with Tazacore in La Palma island before; it has a very similar climate to Bermuda and the coconuts can grow like this:

346xilh.jpg

2lwwrcp.jpg

2pq71wn.jpg

But even in Tazacorte, which has almost the same temperatures, it has a slightly colder summer. The summer given in Tazacorte would be like an average from the summer in Funchal and the summer in Bermuda, being slightly warmer than Funchal but being too slightly colder than Bermuda. The winter temperatures are almost the same compared with Bermuda, being a very very bit warmer in Tazacorte than in Bermuda.

But in Tazacorte rains even less than in Funchal. In Funchal rains an average of 87 days per year and in Tazacorte rains 35 days per year. The coconuts from Tazacorte are quite bigger than those ones in Funchal but they aren't as big as those ones in Bermuda, which are exactly the same as the coconuts in Miami!!! Also, in Tazacorte, a loooot of public coconuts suffer from dehydration, but they keep growing up quite well. Maybe here would grow up like champions if they had the same rain as in Bermuda... the climate is almost the same but Bermuda has a slightly warmer summer.

In all Macaronesia, the unique place with those kind of coconuts is Cape Verde!

Edited by pRoeZa*

I live in Altea, Spain 38°34'N 0º03'O. USDA zone 11a. Coastal microclimate sheltered by mountains. 
The coconuts shown in my avatar are from the Canary Islands, Spain ! :)

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Proeza I understood everything you said except sun power, as I think the uv is the same in both places (almost same latitude). The coconuts in Madeira are very recent Proeza, there is no old coconut palm on the island as far as I know. I am not sure how fast they are supposed to grow but look at those old pictures Pargo posted and mine from late 2014/early 2015 and you see how much they grew in 4 years and a half (I think Pargo ones are from 2009). The oldest coconut I know of on post #185 is around 20 years old according to the owner's wife I spoke with. This is the coconut at 180m altitude which is impressive considering how north Madeira is:

mwfln9.jpg

Ponta do Sol seems to be as warm in daily max temperatures as Bermuda during their coldest month and only slightly lower annual average max temperature. Though Ponta do Sol has more sunshine hours than Bermuda. The min temperature in the coldest month is less than one degree difference from Bermuda and Ponta do Sol has never seen digit 6 and digit 7 temperatures ever, unlike Bermuda.

Edited by Cluster
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Ah haha! I only mentioned sun power one time, not the sun power sorry; I was referring to the total sunshine hours. The second time i've put correctly sunshine hours, but idk why I didn't say sunshine the first time too. :laugh2:

Edited by pRoeZa*

I live in Altea, Spain 38°34'N 0º03'O. USDA zone 11a. Coastal microclimate sheltered by mountains. 
The coconuts shown in my avatar are from the Canary Islands, Spain ! :)

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So yes basically the big difference between Madeira/Canaries and Bermuda is during summer when they have very high lows compared to ours, their winter is very similar however.

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Hi Pedro,

I think that if you could get the green variety of the Hawaiian Tall (not the golden variety of Hawaiian Tall), you might have a good cool weather coconut palm that can successfully produce good coconuts. I have been told by a new friend I have made here on palmtalk who lives in Central Florida where it gets chilly sometimes in the winter and where they successfully grow coconut palms that the green variety of Hawaiian Tall actually handles the chiller winters in Florida pretty well and can be grown I presume as high as 3,000+ft. elevation. I am thinking of trying to get one of these for my place here in Corpus Christi, since our winters can sometimes be chilly and wet.

John

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Hello John, if I could I would get whichever coconut type I can get my hands on:). I like all types of cocos, Stelios coconut colors look amazing you do not see many pictures of yellow malayans. Maybe the easiest solution would be to get them from the canaries since it is close? If everything goes well I should finish uni early summer and then I will get a lot more time for all these things:). At the moment I am in Lisbon, we do get to see howeas here though and some queens.

Do you think the coconut from post 268 (the small one) could be a golden or yellow malayan, the trunk seems to have a bole though so not sure?

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I want Madeira to be like Tazacorte ! ahahaa (I know we can do it)

By the way I've just opened my new thread about Madeira ! I hope you guys will enjoy it.

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Here's a picture from the coconut palm of Caniço de Baixo and, what I believe to be, some baby coconuts on it (the green nuts hanging on it). What do you think ? The poor quality of the picture doesn't help much :/

4956110201_fb6471c762_o.jpg

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There seems to be something there, but hard to understand due to the resolution!. This coconut has a nice trunk and one of the things I would like to do next time is to get a picture of my own of this coconut:).

After the rain the island had during the last 3 or 4 days, heat is arriving soon and cocos will love it!

Ps: the Madeira palm and trees thread is awesome, it is like reading some documentary and I am learning a lot more to talk about when I am showing the island to friends/guests. When I am there I can help you with some photos if you want.

Edited by Cluster
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Thank you Cluster :) I'm glad you like it ! I've got a lot of work if I want to talk about all the palms/trees of the island ahah.

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I don't see very many coconuts from the pictures on the Canaries with coconuts on the palm. I have pictures at my parents from Lanzarote with coconuts on the tree. Do they fruit every year on the Canaries?

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Hi Pedro,

The palm you are asking about in post #268 is a Golden Malayan. It has the characteristic golden orange color to the petiole and the leaflets have a light greenish golden color to them. Some Malayan Dwarfs produce a slight swelling at the base, but much less than the typical tall varieties do, and they sometimes have a curved trunk like this one, but usually less curved than the talls and with much less frequency than the talls curve. If properly watered during dry periods and fertilized with a good organic fertilizer in the 8-4-6 or 6-2-4 ratio with the micronutrients that palms need in the spring and fall, it should start flowering within the next year and half to two years. When it produces coconuts, they will be a bright golden orange color the same as the leaf petioles!

The Yellow Malayan, on the other hand, has a very bright yellow color with no golden or orange tint to the petioles and coconuts. The Yellow Malayan is much less common than the Green Malayan (most common)

and Golden Malayan (second most common Malayan) even in Florida, but has a very beautiful bright yellow color to its petioles and coconuts. If you can get one of these, it would certainly be worth it, and will probably be quite the conversation piece among your family, friends, and neighbors.

John

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Pedro,

Your idea of trying to get coconut palms or good viable ripe nuts to sprout from the Canary Islands is a very good idea, since the Canaries are the one area in your part of the world that has a very similar climate to Madeira's climate, and as such, they should acclimate and get established better than ones imported from more tropical areas.

John

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I guess, still they did come from tropical islands to Canaries so if starting from seed I am not sure it will make much of a difference. Still if it is easier to get one from them it would be great.

This author shares some cool coconut pictures and I have found some yellows there, they do look nice:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/thienzieyung/5524956490/in/photostream/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/thienzieyung/5504858849/in/photostream/

I have also learned from this author what I believe to be the problem with the first coconut on post #281, boron deficiency:(

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So yes basically the big difference between Madeira/Canaries and Bermuda is during summer when they have very high lows compared to ours, their winter is very similar however.

Hey Cluster in addition to the warmer temperatures in Canaries, I would say that UV factor plays an important role too. In Canaries the UV factor is slightly higher/higher everytime than in Madeira, for example right now all those days the UV factors would be from 9 to 10 (depending on the island) while in Madeira would be 6 or 7. Another sites say that in Madeira gonna be 6, 7 and 8 too.

Pedro,

Your idea of trying to get coconut palms or good viable ripe nuts to sprout from the Canary Islands is a very good idea, since the Canaries are the one area in your part of the world that has a very similar climate to Madeira's climate, and as such, they should acclimate and get established better than ones imported from more tropical areas.

John

I won't make that statement. Like I put before (you can look above) I've put the official climate charts and Madeira's climate can be considered as a ocean influenced mediterranean climate. Well, the official recognision is mediterranean climate with ocean influences, while most of the Canary Islands have hot desert climate or directly hot subtropical climate, mediterranean climate with ocean influences in the Canary Islands are given at higher altitudes at the wettest islands (A part of La Palma, a part of El Hierro and mainly Gomera) They are quite different climates and I'll show you the differences: :)

La Gomera and Hierro have the most similar climates to Madeira, but it depends on which side of the island you search for, because you can have a very lookalike Funchal climate or a very lookalike Tenerife climate which is quite warmer. But the climates just can't be compared to another spots of the Canary Islands where the average annual temperature is 22ºC or even more, and it's way warmer both in winters and summers. Looking at this winter, almost all of the days Madeira had temps under 20ºC (i'm talking about maximums)...

This time i'll put the official climate chart of Portugal's government, (the other one was from Wikipedia, which is 100% with sources and trustworthy, but the government one is always more precise!) http://www.ipma.pt/pt/otempo/prev.localidade/?localID=19&cidadeID=9

34hx3q1.jpg

Then look at this one: (look at the above chart in monthly averages, this above chart has directly the averages not the high/low temperatures)

346xilh.jpg

19,3 - 13,2 and 19,3 - 12,9 are the average temps for January and February in Funchal while in Tazacorte for example 19º is the average temperature in both months (being 22/17 for example) while in Tenerife or Gran Canaria cities the average temps for January and February are 18,2 (21,0 - 15,4) - 18,3 (21,2 - 15,3) and 18,0 (20,8 - 15,3) and 18,3 (21,2 - 15,6) respectively.

The hottest months in almost all Macaronesia are August and September, being in Funchal the hottest too with those averages 25,8ºC - 19,3ºC and 25,9ºC - 19,3ºC.

In Las Palmas de Gran Canaria is 27,5ºC - 21,6ºC and 27,2ºC - 21,4ºC and in Tenerife July it's hotter than September in maximums but sligthly colder in minimums, being in Tenerife July, August and September (respectively): 28,7ºC - 21,2ºC, 29,0ºC - 21,9ºC, 28,1ºC - 21,7ºC (I don't put the temperatures of July of Funchal or Gran Canaria because as I said before the hottest months in both maximums and minimums in those 2 places are August and September)

11cbgqs.jpg

FROM FAR you can see the big difference. The climate of Tenerife for example is way warmer than the one in Funchal. 21.2-15.3 in the coldest month and 29.0-21.9 in the hottest. In Funchal the coldest month has 19.3-12.9 and 25.9-19.3

What I wanted to say all this time, is that the climates can't be compared. Of course the climate of Tenerife is way warmer because it's at lower latitude and the sun shines with more power, at least in winter and springs it's a big difference in UV force, in Canary islands it's not uncommon UV 11 in April or UV 10 in March... Also, the climate is desertic and the rain is waaaaay lower in Canary Islands.

Also, when you say Canary Islands remember that you got 8 islands, you can have 100% Sahara landscapes in the Eastern islands while in the Western islands you can go to an almost north-Mexico jungle lookalike. (Almost, obviously it's not the same because the climate it's not tropical!) So for that coconuts grow a lot bigger, faster (not a lot faster) and better in the Canary Islands. They aren't even very similar climates because it's quite warmer and a lot more drier.

El Hierro, which has a lot of oceanic influences, is the island with Gomera which have the most lookalike climates to Madeira, but still far from Madeira's climate, specially talking about precipitations in this case. But in this case also winter temperatures are quite warmer making a loot better temperatures for coconuts accomodation, but summers are almost the same, being only the minimums sligthly higher on summers:

2vcw6xx.jpg

But even in La Gomera we have to talk about a specific side of the island, because look for example at one side the temperatures:

xmoaxi.jpg

While in the other side of the island the annual temperature could be ~20ºC and the summers are 26/20 and the winters 20/15, very similar to Madeira and it's way wetter than in the above last climate chart.

Madeira has a very beautiful and confortable climate. I don't want to make any battle but I have to clarify this because a lot of users think that the climates are almost the same and that's far from being true. They can be very similar in some certain points of the Canary Islands, but overall the Canary Islands are slightly/quite warmer than Madeira, depending on which island we are referring to. The biggest and the most populated ones have quite warmer climates.

But that's normal! Madeira it's at 32ºN and Canary islands range from 27ºN to 29ºN. As a curiosity, coconuts grow quite well in La Graciosa island, which is the northermost and the driest or one of the driest islands. Average annual temperature is about 22ºC but it rains about 50/60-70/80mm per year, being even some recorded years with only 9-10 days in all the year with rain. So that's for me very impressive, from Street View you can't see any irrigation point and for their looking (quite dry but not dry as expected) they look totally that they only survive with rain water, which is veeeeeeeeeery small. (all the island is just sand dunes) and they grow quite good and even they have small coconuts. I can post the photo if you want.

Edited by pRoeZa*

I live in Altea, Spain 38°34'N 0º03'O. USDA zone 11a. Coastal microclimate sheltered by mountains. 
The coconuts shown in my avatar are from the Canary Islands, Spain ! :)

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I don't see very many coconuts from the pictures on the Canaries with coconuts on the palm. I have pictures at my parents from Lanzarote with coconuts on the tree. Do they fruit every year on the Canaries?

Yes because a lot of photos were taken when the coconuts weren't at the trees or they were been ripped off.

This is in Gran Canaria:

5ob9xu.jpg

28cg002.jpg

Look at this photo, they are from explanade in Tenerife (more than 100 hundred coconuts and half of them or more are very very huge) which are made in different seasons: (you can imagine how the others in the explanade look alike)

15yezys.jpg

cocoteros.jpg

And those ones are that ones which I've been talking before. Those are growing and fructifying in a totally desertic climate. Well, it's very influenced by the ocean so there aren't very hot extreme averages, but it happens in a lot of day the local phenomenon called "Calima" which are almost desert storms with temps like 35-36ºC at day and 28-29ºC at night. This kind of winds affect a looot coconuts. In addition, like I said before this island is all sand and the rain which falls here it's compared to a Sahara climate. Well but those ones appear to be irrigated by the person which is living in the house in the front. You can look at that one on at the bottom of the image which looks a lot worse, but compared to the others which don't give any extra water than the one falling from the sky (post #305 at the end) that coconut looks very bad, appearing to be by the wind which also blows quite hard a lot of times in the year. The ones from the post #305 are slightly protected from direct wind by 1-floor houses, but that one gets the wind directly. Phoenixes from photo #305 show also wind damage and phoenixes are a lot harder...

Those are the ones I am talking about:

kf1s9s.jpg

Here it was also a video with a person living in the Canary Islands showing how he is rippening off the coconuts of the trees of his garden, breaks them, and gives the juice to his kids making to see that are 100% mature and good coconuts. I posted it one time in this forum by I only can look at my last few posts so I can't find it :( :(

Edited by pRoeZa*
  • Upvote 1

I live in Altea, Spain 38°34'N 0º03'O. USDA zone 11a. Coastal microclimate sheltered by mountains. 
The coconuts shown in my avatar are from the Canary Islands, Spain ! :)

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I think you are not being fair when you compare data from 1971 2000 with more recent data from Canaries. :). Canaries are not that warmer and the northern coast is colder than some of the south coast from Madeira. Canaries are also not 22 degrees average temperature, at least not in the mean temperatures that IPMA and AEMET (it was called IM when they made this study with AEMET (Spain)) show us in this study of our islands. The way they calculated the mean temperatures is probably different than how they calculate it nowadays, but the method used was the same for both archipelagos.

With that said look at this official chart from our islands climate, made by IPMA and AEMET, so both our official meteorologic institutions:

xnd739.jpg

Canaries:

167wbup.jpg

10e24qr.jpg

Madeira:

2uppxzq.jpg

So what does this tells us? The warmest station is Tenerife with 21,2, the warmest station from Madeira is Lugar de Baixo (Ponta do Sol) with 19,7. Only 1,5 degrees difference from the warmest official weather station from canaries to Ponta do Sol.. While there is a difference it is not as big as you make it and in my opinion they are comparable climates, especially during the winter. Grand Canaria and other stations are like 0.7 degrees to 1 degree warmer.. only that.

The northern coast is colder than Ponta do Sol. And while I do not have the data with me now, I remember seeing official data in our meteo forums where it showed low temperatures and max temperatures for Ponta do Sol for every month. This data means Ponta do Sol is as warm or warmer than Lanzarote's lows in its coldest month (13,7). The coldest month in La Palm airport also has an average max, lower than Ponta do Sol in the coldest month.

Funchal station was also replaced at some point like I explained you(which is in a warmer zone), this is probably why in 81-2010 the mean temperature skyrocket to 19,6 (Should not increase that much in a decade). The average max temperature in Funchal during this winter was also above 20 degrees (you are mixing up Funchal official data with Madeira airport(which is not in Funchal it is near Caniço and Santa Cruz) data from accuweather).

As for the UV, it depends a lot if the days are with clouds and such, but I have been comparing the UV(during this winter) and is basically the same, I show you what both our official institutes predict for tomorrow:

1zgqatx.jpg

Canaries:

11wg36q.jpg

Last but but not the least:) I know and I think most people know, that there is a difference between the islands both in rain and temperatures, but overall they are comparable. Most southern stations here are less than one degrees from Ponta do Sol. I can tell you I am making a personal study about the hottest places in Madeira, from my findings Ponta do Sol is not the warmest, but it is the warmest station we have, the same probably applies to the Canaries:). Look for Faja dos Padres (I showed it on this thread) for example, it is probably as warm as those 20.4 zones, but I need more data and time till I make that claim:). The reason Madeira is so hot for its latitude is probably due to the golf current and the high mountains cliffs that give a very hot micro climate to the southwest coast as well as protection from the northern winds.

Take care.

Edited by Cluster
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That's exactly what i've put before! :laugh2: (the big climate chart) From every point you want my friend, like I said before in both big islands, the temperature is slightly or quite warmer in Canaries, and that's 2 or even 3º more per year. At least 1.5ºC more, yes. Comparing the warmest point in Funchal (which is a small and unique point, also in a flattering point), it's almost 2ºC less than the one from Tenerife city. But if we count small meteorological stations, at flattering and small points of the Canaries... you can find 22ºC or even a bit bit bit more. Think that in Tenerife city is 21.5ºC... that's only 0.5ºC more.

Funchal appears to be 19ºC average, I trust you because you are the portuguese here not me :laugh2:. Well, Madeira it's a single island and the Canary Islands are 9. Well, they are 8, the 9th it's an atoll but well. ¿What's Lugar Do Baixo? That's a spot called Marina Lugar De Baixo, https://www.facebook.com/pages/Lugar-De-Baixo-Madeira-Portugal/110279448990517?sk=nearby&topic=197817313562497if we count all of this kind of small meteorology stations certain Points in the Canaries, we would find a few with 22ºC annual average.

From 1971 to 2000 ¿? And what's the difference mate ¿? Only the one from Tenerife it's from 1981 to 2010 the other ones are from 1971 to 2000 too.

That is slightly colder than normal too ;)The mean average for Santa Cruz de Tenerife is 21.5ºC and for Las Palmas is 21.2ºC

That's not the warmer station in Tenerife, that's the most important station in Tenerife, although with Las Palmas. They don't are 21.2ºC and 20.7ºC.

http://www.aemet.es/es/serviciosclimaticos/datosclimatologicos/valoresclimatologicos?l=C449C&k=coo

http://www.aemet.es/es/serviciosclimaticos/datosclimatologicos/valoresclimatologicos?l=C649I&k=coo

You don't understood me well. I said that there are parts with more than 22ºC annual average, like Tazacorte or Caleta del Sebo in Isla Graciosa.

I was saying in Madeira those next days will be 6 and 7, but maybe 7 and 8 too. And I said 8 too 8 so I was right ;) 6 say here, for that I said maybe because I didn't know if this is trustworthy: http://www.weatheronline.co.uk/Portugal/Funchal/UVindex.htm

Also, look at the UV heat levels: 9 and 10 in the next days like I said.

10fyfj9.jpg

Well, and this:

34hx3q1.jpg

and now this:

11cbgqs.jpg

This is the transcription of the official climate chart of AEMET, which is the official meteorology agency of Spain, and the other one above is from the official meteorology agency of Portugal.

Winters: 19.3ºC - 13.2ºC and 19.3ºC - 12.9ºC in January and February in Funchal. In Santa Cruz it's 21.0ºC - 15.4ºC and 21.2ºC - 15.3ºC

Summers: 24.4ºC - 18.4ºC, 25.8ºC - 19.3ºC and 25.9ºC - 19.3ºC in July, August and September in Funchal. In Santa Cruz it's 28.7ºC - 21.2ºC, 29.0ºC - 21.9ºC and 28.1ºC - 21.7ºC

All without counting that in all of the other months, temperatures are slightly higher in Santa Cruz too but in winters, and the most important thing, summers, the difference is huge. Think that July, August and September averages in Funchal are 21.4ºC, 22.6ºC and 22.6ºC while in Santa Cruz are 25.0ºC, 25.5ºC and 24.9ºC. That's a big difference.

So finally, the average yearly temperature is 2.5ºC higher, and like I said before and you can ask someone in this forum, coconuts need the magic 20ºC everyday in summer, which they won't get this in any place of Madeira while they will get this in almost all places in the Canary Islands at the coast. Maybe this can happen in a very small place in a very special/flattering point in Madeira, but none climate chart says that until now, even the ones like from Ponta De Baixo.

Why did you put La Gomera/Alajeró and Izaña climate charts, too ¿? I think that here don't care the weather stations of places which altitude is located at ~1000m the first and ~2000m the second.

Also, in Canary Islands you can find very huge coconuts which you can't find on Madeira. If you think that the climate of Madeira is underestimated, let me tell you that the climate of the Canary Islands is quite more underestimated, in all coastal places of all islands of the Canary Islands the coconuts would grow. Obviously, in some spots they will do better than in anothers, but they will grow in all. The proportion of coconuts to the other palm trees is 1-2% in overall palms, but in Madeira you know where are all the coconuts, and they arrive to 40 in total ¿? The biggest one in Madeira is about the normal average height of coconuts in Canaries.

Also, you mentioned that you have seem some little coconuts in one palm tree or a couple... but you can't see in Madeira (or until now is not seen) what I put in the post #337. This is not any battle, and I see that you are getting this a bit personal. But it's not, I repeat another time that Madeira officialy has a mediterranean climate with very oceanic influences while most of the Canary Islands have a hot desert climate. And for average the annual temperatures at least 2ºC more than in Madeira. The hottest place of Madeira, which is a spot and it's not a city or even a town, shows 19.7ºC. But there are small meteo stations located in the Canary Islands which show 22ºC per year (look at Tazacorte). Funchal itself shows 19ºC while Santa Cruz or Las Palmas have 21.5 and 21.2.

This is unseen in Madeira: (huge coconuts as those and holding big fruits)

28cg002.jpg

Because the winters aren't warm enough. They are warm to grow coconuts but the coconuts will grow slower and they won't fructify like that... Like I said before this isn't any battle you don't have to take it personally mate. It's a climate difference between them, because they are totally different climates, yours is a very mild mediterranean and regulated by the ocean climate, and most of the Canaries are hot desert climate! Also that's normal too because Canary Islands go from 27ºN to 29ºN while Madeira is on 32ºN. The sun also shines with more UV power in the Canary Islands, and that, with the slightly warmer or warmer temperatures, made a better suitable climate for coconuts.

Look at the coconuts from Durban. Do you know their average ¿? In the coldest months they have got 23.0/10.6, 22.6/10.5 and 22.8/12.5. It's a very similar climate to 27-28-29ºN latitude climates in the coast of Florida, and they get rain all the year. They got minimum averages between 10 and 11, but they reach the magic 20ºC every days in winter, like in the Canary Islands or Bermuda!! :greenthumb:

That's why in Bermuda, Canaries or Durban you can see those huge specimens:

(Durban)

activity_877_1_M.jpg

(Tazacorte, which doesn't appears in that climate chart and I put 2 times the chart in this thread, above you can see it!) Look at the ones from above, which are good drained:

2lwwrcp.jpg

I don't even live in Canaries. And in Bermuda with 22.0ºC yearly average the coconuts generally grow faster and bigger than the ones in the Canary Islands. ¿Why? Because of the rain. But also, in the Canary Islands rain a lot less than in Madeira but they grow faster. Why? For the climate difference, they need more hot in summers in Madeira. You've been talking a lot of times about a small place in a certain point of Madeira in which the average is almost 20ºC.

¿Why don't you try planting there and you get out from doubts? They will grow as they will do in the north coast of El Hierro, but not as in the west coast of La Palma, or the coastlines of most Tenerife or Gran Canaria. In post #337 i've also put in the last photo, those 2 coconuts in La Caleta Del Sebo where the climate is 100% desertic (without big desertic extremes, of course) but look at how good they grow and they even fructify, with average rains of... ¿2 days per month? I don't know, but you can do any street view anywhere you want and see that all is sand dunes, all is desertic.

Regards :)

Edited by pRoeZa*

I live in Altea, Spain 38°34'N 0º03'O. USDA zone 11a. Coastal microclimate sheltered by mountains. 
The coconuts shown in my avatar are from the Canary Islands, Spain ! :)

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Well, after saying all that and saying the climate differences, i'm getting tired to speak about Canary Islands and also it's nothing personal. This is not a thread about that islands so we'll talk about Madeira or coconuts, ok? :lol2:

¿Aren't those ones from the bottom Yellow Malayan Dwarfs?

2lwwrcp.jpg

Look at the difference with the others planted in public and not inside the garden of this restaurant. From here, they appear to be totally different breeds, ain't they ?

Edited by pRoeZa*

I live in Altea, Spain 38°34'N 0º03'O. USDA zone 11a. Coastal microclimate sheltered by mountains. 
The coconuts shown in my avatar are from the Canary Islands, Spain ! :)

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I am just making things fair Proeza. You compare Santa Cruz climate from 81-2010 against Funchal from 71-2000. If you go to IPMA site you can get the normals for 81-2010 as well and Funchal is 19,6 for 81-2010, I tried to explain you that such big difference (from 19 to 19,6) is due to the new weather station location (or so I have heard) and of course the climate is getting warmer. I showed you the data from 2000 so you could see Santa Cruz in 2000. Lugar do Baixo is a zone in Ponta do Sol, but all the southwest Coast is warmer than Funchal (and is bigger than Funchal too), it just happens we only have that official weather station as reliable data. Ponta do Sol holds an average of 20,3 or 20,2 for 81-2010, that means Santa Cruz (which is the warmest region that has normals in Canaries) is only 1,3 degrees or less than Ponta do Sol, that is real data. Tazacorte might be warmer or not, there are no normals for Tazecorte, there are also warmer areas than Ponta do Sol on Madeira. The Portuguese are not as blessed with official weather stations and coverage and information as the Spanish:(

In post #322 you showed Funchal normals 81-2010, from wikipedia why did you not use those values instead? I am not taking this personally but every time someone here has said they think the climates are somehow comparable, for some reason you jump in to say otherwise. As you said I may know the climate from the island slightly better, because I have been studying it for a couple of years already and go there every year. I just like to say things as they are, not more or less, what I showed you is not my opinion, it is a study that compares both islands and from that study there is 1,5 degree from our official warmest stations. Funchal is further down, but Funchal is not the only place from Madeira and Santa Cruz is not the only one either in the south coast (the other stations were only 20,4 and 20,7), besides I repeat the station is warmer than it used to be in 61-1990 and there is another station in Lido (Zone in Funchal) which is even warmer. I did not show Lido because lido one is a RUEMA and there are no normals yet. I also told you to see our official links and not the ones from accuweather if you want to see Funchal official data:)

I am not angry at all:) or taking this personally, I just like to deal with facts and fair data, I like to be objective, comparing two sets of data (1971-2000 vs 1981-2010) in different periods, not to mention Funchal is not Madeira.

And yes we should talk about coconuts and not climate data I think people can investigate further should they want to:) Have a good night.

Edited by Cluster
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Well, after saying all that and saying the climate differences, i'm getting tired to speak about Canary Islands and also it's nothing personal. This is not a thread about that islands so we'll talk about Madeira or coconuts, ok? :lol2:

¿Aren't those ones from the bottom Yellow Malayan Dwarfs?

2lwwrcp.jpg

Look at the difference with the others planted in public and not inside the garden of this restaurant. From here, they appear to be totally different breeds, ain't they ?

I think you are right, I am not that good at differentiating them yet, but they do look more yellow and they look awesome in my opinion.

Some of the coconuts you showed in your other post look beautiful, they even look like some of the tropics :)

Edited by Cluster
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Well, i'll reply direct here to post #348 too:

For me that's not fair or unfair. I used the data from 1981 to 2010 because that was in the chart, but the other one from El Hierro was from 1971 to 2000.

Depending on which chart we are talking, it's better to use data from 1971 to 2000 because there are cases that in those years the temperatures were warmer :winkie: . (not in this case but believe me, I like a lot meteo and I've seen places in where the oldest climate charts were warmer). Although that's nothing that makes my decision and my posts, that doesn't counts, I only use the climate charts.

Why I didn't use the data from post 322 ¿? Because I wanted to use your official data, the data of the official meteorology station of Portugal, like you do and like it's better to use, like I use the ones from AEMET. No one is gonna say better the climate than the own governments! hehe. But all of that doesn't care, i'm tired of climate discussions so it doesn't care hehe. :greenthumb:

Well, after saying all that and saying the climate differences, i'm getting tired to speak about Canary Islands and also it's nothing personal. This is not a thread about that islands so we'll talk about Madeira or coconuts, ok? :lol2:

¿Aren't those ones from the bottom Yellow Malayan Dwarfs?

2lwwrcp.jpg

Look at the difference with the others planted in public and not inside the garden of this restaurant. From here, they appear to be totally different breeds, ain't they ?

I think you are right, I am not that good at differentiating them yet, but they do look more yellow and they look awesome in my opinion.

Some of the coconuts you showed in your other post look beautiful, they even look like some of the tropics :)

Yes, definetly they look awesome.

Those ones look very well too, they appear to be growing fast. And they grow only by rain water as it appears there is no irrigation system around them.

2ebuao9.jpg

I can't know too how to make the differentiation between them... :laugh2:

EDIT: Definetly they are Yellow Malayan Dwarfs or that appear of their fruit!!!

The fruits zoomed in: (note that all this photos are from Tazacorte, La Palma island)

w8ta21.jpg

Edited by pRoeZa*

I live in Altea, Spain 38°34'N 0º03'O. USDA zone 11a. Coastal microclimate sheltered by mountains. 
The coconuts shown in my avatar are from the Canary Islands, Spain ! :)

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The main reason why our coconut palms aren't like those in Santa cruz is the bad care and the urbanization (they keep removing them because of new constructions), many of our cocos were taken off for some work reasons, just because they have to remove them for a new street, new avenue, or because it was disturbing the neighbors, etc.

The other reason for their removing is the estethic side: bad care for a cocos means dry and short leaves, anormal size, etc.

If these coconut palms were still in the seafront, imagine just for one second their size ! considering that in 2005 they were from 5 to 7 meters high.

(you can see their beautiful and large fronds)

2538655169_e3b8f35f4d_b.jpg

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Hello again Proeza, just wanted to clear out IPMA also has the 81-2010 which have the new weather station working for more years:), this data is the one used in wikipedia, anyway here it is the 81-2010 directly from IPMA. 30vnmyo.jpg

Looking at the pictures from your zoomed coconuts it looks like it might be a red Malayan coconut, look at these pictures from Malaysia:

Red Malayan and two yellows :https://www.flickr.com/photos/thienzieyung/5848628490/in/photostream/

Red and Green: https://www.flickr.com/photos/thienzieyung/5726529758/

Yellow: https://www.flickr.com/photos/thienzieyung/5504858849/in/photostream/

As for the wind damage in some of those palms of the sea front I am not sure, the pictures look like they were taken when there was wind but I think they will be ok (and not damaged?), they look to be dry though. The ones in Tarajal look nice, they also have green grass so maybe from time to time they water them, can't say for sure. In the Funchal Marina some of the palms showed more signs of being dry than others, I noticed a big difference between some of the palms and one or two that looked dry, they also have grass, though it did not look green the last time I checked.

I hope these pictures help you and others to identify palms. For me it is still hard to sometimes distinguish a tall from a dwarf!

Edited by Cluster
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Hello Pargomad, seeing all those old pictures and the potential makes me angry, thanks again for sharing. It is indeed true that our palms are quiet young and most of them are badly treated. The biggest coconut in the marina is not in the same row as the dwarf coconut, I show it in post #251 and in post #282 the mini cocos. If they let this palm tree alone (which is not happening as it is trimmed), it will be a very nice specimen, too bad I did not have anyone nearby to show its size.

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I don't see very many coconuts from the pictures on the Canaries with coconuts on the palm. I have pictures at my parents from Lanzarote with coconuts on the tree. Do they fruit every year on the Canaries?

Yes because a lot of photos were taken when the coconuts weren't at the trees or they were been ripped off.

This is in Gran Canaria:

5ob9xu.jpg

28cg002.jpg

Look at this photo, they are from explanade in Tenerife (more than 100 hundred coconuts and half of them or more are very very huge) which are made in different seasons: (you can imagine how the others in the explanade look alike)

15yezys.jpg

cocoteros.jpg

And those ones are that ones which I've been talking before. Those are growing and fructifying in a totally desertic climate. Well, it's very influenced by the ocean so there aren't very hot extreme averages, but it happens in a lot of day the local phenomenon called "Calima" which are almost desert storms with temps like 35-36ºC at day and 28-29ºC at night. This kind of winds affect a looot coconuts. In addition, like I said before this island is all sand and the rain which falls here it's compared to a Sahara climate. Well but those ones appear to be irrigated by the person which is living in the house in the front. You can look at that one on at the bottom of the image which looks a lot worse, but compared to the others which don't give any extra water than the one falling from the sky (post #305 at the end) that coconut looks very bad, appearing to be by the wind which also blows quite hard a lot of times in the year. The ones from the post #305 are slightly protected from direct wind by 1-floor houses, but that one gets the wind directly. Phoenixes from photo #305 show also wind damage and phoenixes are a lot harder...

Those are the ones I am talking about:

kf1s9s.jpg

Here it was also a video with a person living in the Canary Islands showing how he is rippening off the coconuts of the trees of his garden, breaks them, and gives the juice to his kids making to see that are 100% mature and good coconuts. I posted it one time in this forum by I only can look at my last few posts so I can't find it :( :(

Thanks for the photos and information. I'm going to Tenerife next month so hopefully I can get some pictures of fruiting coconuts!

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Here's a picture from the house of the northernmost coconut palms in the world in Porto Santo, you can see 4 cocos (they removed one behind the house so today there are 3 left), I zoomed on the picture in order to see them "clearly":

post-8105-0-52514900-1427640413_thumb.jp

post-8105-0-24832200-1427640527_thumb.jp

Here's the original picture:

33137233.jpg

The good point of Porto Santo is the beautiful beach and the date palms everywhere (gives you an oasis effect).

The negative points : the island should have another vegetation composed of plants and trees from the zambujal : euphorbia piscatoria, dracaena draco (there used to be a loooot of dragon trees on the island but with the colonization they're exctinct) and on the higher points : laurissilva trees like the Barbusano. Instead of this, a century ago the island was completely arid with no vegetation, the madeirans decided to reforest the island, but with Pinus halepensis (pinetree from the Mediterranean) and with cupressus macrocarpa (monterrey cypress from the central coast of California)... aberration.

Instead of having a true macaronesian flora we have a sicilian landscape, thanks to the portuguese... again -.-

And for the ornamental plants and trees, they haven't evolved at all, they keep planting pinetrees everywhere with date palms instead of trying a more tropical vegetation as they do in the Canary islands... what a shame.

Edited by Pargomad
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If I go to Porto Santo taking pictures of these coconuts will be a priority:)

I have just watched recent videos showing the current state of the marina coconuts!

starting at around 3:05 :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMN_kWqGBuE

and the next one in greater detail (also shows our dwarf mascot!):https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiqVe4jKFvU

Unfortunately the camera's contrast settings are way overdone, killing a lot of the detail (most cameras these days overdo this by default). The lightning conditions were the worst as well, but I am grateful for the video. The dwarf is easier to spot as there is no background white sky and the colors come more accurate. Watch it in full HD :)

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I just found an hotel in Funchal with a beautiful garden plenty of palm trees like the archontos, syagrus, roystoneas, dypsis, or wodiyetas, etc a real botanic garden ! Here's a picture:

4625296006_392bb534df_o.jpg

I wonder why they don't have any coconut palm in their collection ! It might prove the difficulty of getting a cocos on the island...

I know that in front of the hotel, in the lido promenade there is a little palm collection with a baby cocos (They got it from Brazil) and other tropical palm trees like the Veitchia merrillii (christmas palm tree).

post-8105-0-79595900-1428335972_thumb.jp

post-8105-0-28839100-1428335981_thumb.jp

post-8105-0-15361900-1428335996_thumb.jp

I can't believe that some palm lovers like them didn't think of planting some cocos nucifera... I'm sure they didn't know how to get one...

Edited by Pargomad
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Gorgeous landscaping, and I am sure that coconut palms would do quite well there if not butchered by overly aggressive tree trimmers and if not overwatered in the cooler winter months, since coconut palms do not like cold wet roots. When it's hot and dry, they like a lot of water if it's a well drained soil, but when its cooler in the winter, they don't like cool wet roots, so less water for them in the winter is best. I think if properly watered, fertilized, and not overly trimmed, they would probably regularly produce at least small to medium sized coconuts, though coconut production would take longer on the palms than it does in the somewhat warmer Canary Islands to the south. Try getting Jamaican Talls from Bermuda, since Bermuda is so far away from South Florida and the Caribbean and thus has a cooler climate than the areas to the south, or try getting some Tall variety coconut palms from the Canaries, since the Tall varieties can handle colder weather than the Dwarf varieties.

John

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Hello again!

Pargomad, nice find! Another coconut that will be easier for me to track we will see this summer how it is :). One day coconuts will be used more often on the island, when they see how cool mine will look:).

John, if you look at the pictures of the Marina or watch the recent video (some days old) that is showing the coconuts there, the dwarf one seems to be the one looking the best for some reason. Also on post #155 you can see it fruiting, before they removed the inflorescence! So I think there is potential even for the dwarfs. I am still angry as the dwarf one would be the first recorded picture of a fruiting coconut palm on the island:(, but alas they removed/trimmed it.

Regarding the water, would it be problematic for a coconut to grow in our garden knowing we do have sprinklers for the grass? It is mostly used during the summer, however from time to time in the winter of the grass is getting dry.

Thank you:)

Edited by Cluster
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I don't see very many coconuts from the pictures on the Canaries with coconuts on the palm. I have pictures at my parents from Lanzarote with coconuts on the tree. Do they fruit every year on the Canaries?

Hello friend! Like our buddy Proeza said, here in the Canary Islands Cocos Nucifera fructifies. I would say that almost all fructify and give mature cocos. I'm from Tenerife, and I can tell you that every year they have cocos.

They grow slightly slower than in Bermudas, because Bermudas get a lot of water during the summer; which is the important wet season for cocos. That's why in Bermuda they grow like in Miami. Here in the Canary Islands we have cocos in all the islands, and we have thousands of them, but you can find coconuts looking like trash to coconuts looking like the cocos in Sumatra.

All what cares is the water they get. If they only grow with the rain water, which is ridiculous, they will grow quite slower than normal. If we talk about the climate the climate is very suitable. We have 21/22 - 15/16/17 on winters, and 29/30 - 22/23 on summers. Think that the climate charts from above are from the airports, where the climate is slightly colder. @Cluster my friend yes it arrives in 22ºC annual average in some parts. Tenerife has an oficial 21.5ºC annual average but trust me that in the city or in the marina the average annual temperature is 22ºC.

But we also have something imposible in Bermuda, which is the sand storms called "calima" during summer. The temperature can get to approximately 40ºC during various days, and we have about 30ºC of minimums those days. That's very very very bad for palms specially palms like coconuts; washingtonias or phoenixes even enjoy this. But that's not a problem, the problem is the rain. Like Proeza said before, the rain amount is very very small. That's why the coconuts from hotels, private gardens, or public gardens but with good irrigation, look like coconuts from the Caribbean. Because they get all the water they need. But those ones which are publicly planted, and even worse, a lot which are planted next to streets to make them "beautiful" but they only get the water from the sky... those ones look worse.

But the most impressing thing is that they grow and fructify in Caleta Del Sebo which is 100% desertic and it lows less than half compared to Tenerife! And think that Tenerife has a desertic climate too... But they are green and fructify. lol!

Maybe that's because they are planted on direct sand ? I don't have any idea...

Good hydrated coconuts in the Canary Islands look like this: (Proeza, I will use your photos :winkie: )

28cg002.jpg

15yezys.jpg

cocoteros.jpg

S4022417_redimensionar.jpg

post-810-096223500%201328286854.jpg

I don't know very much about Madeira so I will not say anything about it. Sorry for devariating your thread @Cluster but I wanted to reply our buddy @chesirepalms.

Kind regards :)

Edited by Tenerife
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Welcome Tenerife. The temperatures were for the official city station of Tenerife, it is indeed 21,5 for 81-2010 and 21,2 for 71-2000. Both islands should have warmer areas than the official stations, be it due to artificial heating due to man (like in the middle of a city) or small micro-climates. Don't worry about posting on this thread, I find it useful to share information regarding the Canary islands. We could probably learn many tips from people in the Canaries that, like you said, already have thousands of coconuts and experience. I hope we can all learn from each other. I would like to visit the Canaries at some point and maybe bring with me my coconut!

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I don't see very many coconuts from the pictures on the Canaries with coconuts on the palm. I have pictures at my parents from Lanzarote with coconuts on the tree. Do they fruit every year on the Canaries?

Hello friend! Like our buddy Proeza said, here in the Canary Islands Cocos Nucifera fructifies. I would say that almost all fructify and give mature cocos. I'm from Tenerife, and I can tell you that every year they have cocos.

They grow slightly slower than in Bermudas, because Bermudas get a lot of water during the summer; which is the important wet season for cocos. That's why in Bermuda they grow like in Miami. Here in the Canary Islands we have cocos in all the islands, and we have thousands of them, but you can find coconuts looking like trash to coconuts looking like the cocos in Sumatra.

All what cares is the water they get. If they only grow with the rain water, which is ridiculous, they will grow quite slower than normal. If we talk about the climate the climate is very suitable. We have 21/22 - 15/16/17 on winters, and 29/30 - 22/23 on summers. Think that the climate charts from above are from the airports, where the climate is slightly colder. @Cluster my friend yes it arrives in 22ºC annual average in some parts. Tenerife has an oficial 21.5ºC annual average but trust me that in the city or in the marina the average annual temperature is 22ºC.

But we also have something imposible in Bermuda, which is the sand storms called "calima" during summer. The temperature can get to approximately 40ºC during various days, and we have about 30ºC of minimums those days. That's very very very bad for palms specially palms like coconuts; washingtonias or phoenixes even enjoy this. But that's not a problem, the problem is the rain. Like Proeza said before, the rain amount is very very small. That's why the coconuts from hotels, private gardens, or public gardens but with good irrigation, look like coconuts from the Caribbean. Because they get all the water they need. But those ones which are publicly planted, and even worse, a lot which are planted next to streets to make them "beautiful" but they only get the water from the sky... those ones look worse.

But the most impressing thing is that they grow and fructify in Caleta Del Sebo which is 100% desertic and it lows less than half compared to Tenerife! And think that Tenerife has a desertic climate too... But they are green and fructify. lol!

Maybe that's because they are planted on direct sand ? I don't have any idea...

Good hydrated coconuts in the Canary Islands look like this: (Proeza, I will use your photos :winkie: )

28cg002.jpg

15yezys.jpg

cocoteros.jpg

S4022417_redimensionar.jpg

post-810-096223500%201328286854.jpg

I don't know very much about Madeira so I will not say anything about it. Sorry for devariating your thread @Cluster but I wanted to reply our buddy @chesirepalms.

Kind regards :)

I arrived back on Monday from Costa Adeje in Tenerife and saw many coconuts, such a beautiful Island with a huge variety of palms and many coconuts! Thank you for the information and the pictures.

11129912_699675616826429_892608791299083

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WOW! I just finished reading this entire thread and it reveals the incredible beauty of Maderia with great information on the Canary Islands, the Azores, Bermuda and South Texas. I am from South Florida, where Cocos nucifera are ubiquitous, but greatly enjoy these "zone elongation" discussions.

Additionally, the interplay of very knowledgeable Forum Members from different areas makes a great read. From the FM's familiar with Cocos nucifera culture in the Nepal/ Himalaya region to Galveston, Tx., Spain, Portugal, New Zealand and Australia, this thread certainly shows the world-wide wealth of talent brought together by the International Palm Society on this Board.

More than a few years ago, I interacted in a thread with a great FM, who lived in Bermuda, but whose family was from the Azores. We plotted how we might take advantage of the warm climate of the Azores gifted by the Gulfstream together with the volcanic heat in the soil to break the Port Elizabeth, SA Cocos nucifera for the world record. Parenthetically, more research on this region may reveal opportunities at greater distances from the equator. The same is true with New Zealand, which shares an outstanding climate together with volcanic areas similar to the Azores.

Zone elongation aside, the gift of the knowledge of the beauty of Maderia is something that I would likely never have known about but for this thread. Great people, great places, great personalities and great palms all possible because of this great Board!

What you look for is what is looking

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Hi Pedro,

I don't think the sprinklers will be a problem for a coconut palm in your yard as long as they don't get the crown or trunk really wet during chilly winter weather. When it is hot and dry, water your coconut palm about once a week or at least once every two weeks with a good deep watering from a hose moving the hose around to all four sides of the palm root zone. Water each side about 5 minutes when it is little palm and about 20 minutes when it is an adult palm. Don't place the hose up against the base of the trunk, but rather place it about a foot away from the trunk when it is little and about 3 to 4 ft. away from the trunk when it is an adult, and don't water it too often in the cooler winter months. If you get any measurable rain in the winter, only water it about once every 5 to 6 weeks. You would probably only need to water it about 2 or 3 times all winter long.

Keith (Bubba), thanks for the nice comments. You are so lucky living in Palm Beach where Jamaican Talls can grow to 70ft. and Malayans to about 50ft. I would guess. It must be really nice having the Gulf Stream only about 3 miles offshore.

John

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Hello Keith (Bubba) and welcome! I am glad you enjoyed the thread, there is indeed a lot of information being shared among all of us. During August I will be able to continue my photo reports and investigate further, as you probably have understood we are trying to figure out if it is possible to have a fruiting coconut on the island or her little sister, Porto Santo (33N, with 4 coconuts as far as we know). This has been difficult as I showed what they do to the coconuts, they trim them and their inflorescence, the lack of water/soil is probably also crucial in some cases. We did see three tiny coconut growing in our young mascot (the dwarf one:) ), unfortunately they removed the inflorescence. So maybe this already counts, still we would like to see them mature. At the moment the private coconuts I showed have the best potential: they are in some of the the hottest place on the island (warmer than Funchal), they are two (which means if they are not dwarf they will also be able to pollinate each other) and they are owned by people which could take proper care of them if I am able to convince them:). In any case it looks to be more than possible, maybe my future coconut in not so privileged place might handle it:)

I did read your discussion about the Azores coconut and in those hotter soils due to the volcanic activity it might be possible, in another zone it would be hard, I would not say impossible though.

To finish, it is great you are also learning and getting to know the island I will try to share some more photos of the island among the coconuts when I am there during summer. Additionally Pargomad is also making a new thread regarding Madeira palms and trees:). This board has been a great place to learn and share!

John, thank you, I was scared the sprinklers could be bad. As for chilly weather to be honest with you, during most years at my place there should not be a single day reaching a low of 10 C (50 F) or a daily high below 62 F, the record low for Funchal is around 7,4 C (45,32 ).

Edited by Cluster
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Pedro,

That's great! I wish my winters here in Corpus Christi, Texas were that mild. You should be able to get nuts to grow on your coconut palm, but since you have what I call a mild tropical climate, as opposed to a warm or hot tropical climate, they will probably grow slower than they would on the Canaries or the Cape Verde Islands. I look forward to you posting photos of your palm when you plant it.

John

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