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Someone certainly loved palms and went all out with a hedge of engleri. A local suburban house in my hometown, they went for privacy and certainly got it with this lot of palms. So engleri will make a great hedge over time. They even threw in a Bismarckia for good measure.

Now in their third summer from 4” containers, the Burretiokentia kogiensis, and B. dumasii, and second summer B. vieillardii have proven to be winners in my Northern CA garden. Partial shade and lots of water seem to be the trick not to mention good soil. I had imagined much slower growth with these but they’ve sailed along. Not pictured are my two B. hapala. Would love to see examples in other members gardens! Burretiokentia vieillardii B. kogiensis B. dumasii

I started out with two little greenhouses and a small hothouse, the addiction grew along with more greenhouses, the pictures below are where it all started. Soon you will be building another one. It’s a great hobby that’s for sure and your setup is perfect! Richard

I finally got around to building (assembling a kit) a small greenhouse for my seedlings. I had so many taking up space between other palms in the garden and also dominating my work bench. I really don’t have much room around the house so it had to be very compact. It took me about a day and a half to put together , including a 4x4 wooden skid to give it height . I finished it today and quickly put all of my babies in there to enjoy the nice , warm environment. I have a few varieties now and more sprouting so it was time for a dedicated space. Harry It is squeezed between two large Syagrus R with enough room for my ladders. A nice vent to keep it from getting too hot . The wet pea gravel will hopefully raise the humidity a bit . I just opened the vent more to allow it to cool down and circulate the air. I plan on adding a solar powered fan at some point. These are very reasonably priced but take a lot of assembly time. There are many sizes to choose from . I chose the 4’ x 6’ . Harry

Getting a bit of trunk these days, looking good today. Tim

*geonomiformis - alluding to the similarity to Geonoma species in terms of growth form. Agree it’s a great little palm.

A few colorful flushes around the yard today.

Another great little chamaedorea for the understory the genoformis. Easy to grow like most chamaedorea varieties. Easy to propagate and very predictable growth patterns making for an excellent palm wherever you can find a spot in the garden. Excellent container palm for the patio or indoors for a couple of months. A great palm all round palm for any collection.

As a young fern they like dappled light and water, but as soon as they get a metre or two sized leaves they take a lot of sun. I use them as canopy trees in harsh areas around my garden. Great pioneer plants for establishing a garden. And once they get a couple of metres of trunk full sun not a problem. They do like a drink but once established they are tough plants. Just plant as many as you can anywhere you will be surprised how many live, you may lose one or two out of 20 or so, once they get growing they are rocket ships.

It's cold where I live, but not as cold as at the poles.

They look great Jim! I’m learning that these don’t have high heat requirements. I killed a B vieillardii decades ago before I really knew what I was doing and just assumed at the time that they weren’t suitable for my climate. More recently I’ve grown B hapala and B koghiensis without issue so probably should give B vieillardii another go. I haven’t yet got my hands on B dumasii or B grandiflora. B hapala (I need to take an updated photo, this is a bit old)

Hedyscepe canterburyana dropped an old frond and the freshly exposed crownshaft is looking great!

Thanks again Leonel Mera for showing me these palm trees! Click here for complete album

The great thing about the engleri is the cold tolerance making them a good choice for those colder climates. Beating the lutescens hands down for cool tolerance and maintenance, even when the stems die you hardly notice them. If you were prepared to do a bit of height adjustments they would take removal of stems that are to tall well. They are still quite rare in my area, the landscaper who done the work for that hedge knew what he was after (or the home owner) I have seen two other gardens in town with exotic similar palms, so there must have been a landscaping company some years ago that was into palms. Or just good knowledgeable gardening people. But most certainly a good example of the use of palms for landscaping and in this case the engleri!

The first night was interesting . The humidity was 83% at sun down and almost 90% at 6am . I think I could leave the vent open just a bit . A small space is hard to regulate . If I open the door , I can watch the humidity drop! Harry

Coronata / Romazoffiana now recognised as a naturally occuring hybrid i have 1 too was called Tagalensis when i got it 20 years ago

Same here! When we moved up the hill from our old house , things changed . Micro climates are real and once we got an established garden , I was surprised at what I could grow . I have noticed the warming trend over the 30 years we’ve been here . Of course a freak cold snap can happen but we just don’t see below mid 40’s any more . The weather app will show 42 but our real time temp is 46+ . We are higher up , south facing , warming us in the morning hours. Lovely palms , those . I’ve never tried them . My main thing , now , is room. Harry

I can see why someone would like that privacy hedge . Not a fast way to get one but pretty cool . I am surprised you haven’t introduced yourself . Harry

They make a great hedge and those pictures show that!

You’re climate sounds somewhat a little like my climate, Iam definitely subtropical but live in a sweet spot for a lot of varieties of palms, like you said the super tropicals we can rule out, but among that tropical stuff there is a lot of stuff you can grow. Availability is the thing stopping a lot more stuff being discovered!

Very very nice Jim! Such a beautiful genus. Kogihensis & dumasii were always indistinguishable to me, with the exception of me killing every labeled one of former and having no trouble with the latter. If I had space I’d try veilardii again; always loved the crown on that one. They tick right along in a temperate garden; no surprise they look great in yours, given your touch.

The plan is to get the seedlings going and a few other palms that need protection . The environment should help them all get going. Harry

I have a small greenhouse heater to use for those cold nights . I plant to set the heater for about 60f in the winter , when our temperature hits upper 40’s f. Harry

Why not grow palms that thrive and look their best in that climate? Simple answer... Because then you would be growing a lot of the same palms your neighbors are already growing.🤷‍♂️ I grow a lot of exotic to Mesa palms in my garden, but to be honest, none of them really live up to their true potential beauty, due to our extreme heat. Every single palm I grow, no matter how hardy or desert adapted, has brown/burnt tips of their fronds. Lots of palm species actually can be grown here - just not to perfection. If I had to have a garden that thrived, I would have planted a lot of washingtonia and Phoenix palms. Those actually do grow to perfection in my climate.🤷‍♂️ aztropic Mesa, Arizona

Nice new addition well done, it starts with on. You watch you will build another then another…… But perfect size for heating in winter, you will get a few nice tropicals in there! Richard

You should add a portable heater for the winter. But that grow looks great, Harry.

Wondering if you were able to collect any seeds from the trees you saw on your trip? Here's a little scoparia I grew from seeds I collected in habitat. Although time consuming, it's a really nice souvenir to remember a trip by. 😄 aztropic Mesa, Arizona

I only have two in the garden. Both are 30 years old, one is raging along while its cousin is still doesn’t even have a trunk, planted about 3 meters apart. They are tough palms and have done the job that I wanted when planted with a vision. I see them planted around the place in my home town in full sun situations but to me they look better in shade I think. A wonderful tough palms and worth growing!

Agree 100%... hence the title of the thread of this year's thread.. Agree that last year was heavily weighted on the rains we saw toward the very end of the season, though overall, it was definitely better than either '23 or '24.. Oddly enough, 22 was actually drier than last year, at least by what was logged at Sky Harbor. Both years? pale and bland in comparison to 2021 ..which was incredible, imo.. 2018 was fairly decent as well. Some forecasters have been using '18 as a " past reference " analog for this year. I myself want to lean more heavily on 21, or maybe one of the better years in the '90's, but can see the logic behind eye -balling 18. If you look at rainfall and lightning count data for both Tucson and PHX < via the Monsoon Tracker > ..and AZ overall, you'll notice how, ...while we can see good, " early " rains, every so often, typically, the majority of the seasons' totals don't really start stacking up in until sometime right around / after the middle of July, so, ....we've got a little wiggle room, for now.. What is interesting, to me at least, is how ..while one can easily see the Catalinas from Telegraph Peak on South Mountain, or the parking lot on the southeast side of the San Tans, they can have a good / pretty good year, while we suffer through the sun.. Less common are the years when we BOTH have good / great years.. Tucson, at the airport, PHX, at Sky Harbor This is also true if you look further out, ..at say data from ABQ, Flagstaff, and / or El Paso as well Rare that EVERYONE has a great year.. Used only 2014 -26 data but you can go much further out and see a similar pattern. Some years are great for many or everyone, while only a few notch a win for the season during others. "Tis the sometimes annoying intrigue of the Monsoon.. I myself hate using Sky Harbor as a " ends all " data point for how wet or dry X or Y season ended up because, like many other areas around the valley, Chandler can see much more rainfall than near the airport, and/or downtown so,... when it is wet here, but only registers as normal there, ..the season total logged there doesn't correctly capture how the season panned out. After years of noting how other people easily notice the same thing, No question that i'm not the only person who feels similarly about this. Valley -wide average is better, but ..i'm just not fully satisfied using that means to gauge a season, either. ..Is why i'll average out data between what is captured via the closest - to- me gauges utilized by our flood control district, and data from nearby gauges used by Rain Log when assessing how good or horrible a season was. ..Not that how the yards look < or don't > by the end of September doesn't provide the best clues. One thing is certain, this year will be interesting, ..not that all of them aren't. ...is already off to an interesting start, even if it doesn't seem like it right now. Waiting for the next good moisture surge to see if something i noted during last weeks is a hint of the kind of pattern this year might bring, or is simple " random chance " but, While it was pretty weak, in terms of being able to generate -anything- as it moved through ( wasn't forecast to do so, at all ), the isolated, -tiny- dots on a big map that had me of bed and outside at 2am, for 3 days straight, trying to capture the handful of bolts each storm generated, may point to wetter times ahead, ..in the sense that ..if a really weak disturbance riding a late night gulf surge into the area can spark " here this minute, gone in 2 " storms, could that point to far better storm coverage / intensity as we head forward, if ..or when.. deeper moisture is present ..that extra moisture provided by the " suggested ", warmer than normal Pacific / Gulf of CA? ..We'll see.. Though the " Pre -July " activity was a bit stronger in both '21 and '22 than what i've noted so far this year, what i've seen so far, this year, isn't too far off from what i saw at the start of both of those years either.. " Wait - and - See / Believe it when i see it ", " ...Cross the fingers, with conviction / Wash the car(s) -repeatedly, " lol ..or simply " convince me " We'll know what lies ahead on the road this year, soon.. On a side note, As much as i wish it was UA doing it, instead, Appears ASU < west campus > will be starting a long term research project to see if many years ..decades... of individual - assumption regarding the degree of possible negative / positive side - effects < of city / valley -wide development over the last several decades > has on how the season behaves locally starts this year.

Spoil sport, why let reality get in the way of a good theory! I'm sure you're probably right in all seriousness...the scenario in the pic below is so tantalising though, reclinatas in a pond in the middle of winter, there was frost on the ground all round them this morning. I planted a couple out years ago in my dry sand in full sun and they were destroyed by frost, which is why I didn't bother with these ones, so what's going on here? The pond itself is way too small to moderate the temperature, so is there some other factor involved? Does full hydration in winter build stronger cell walls? No idea and probably just BS but interesting to contemplate. For reference, other species that I've had sitting in water all winter include: Archontophoenix cunninghamiana, shade Sabal bermdana, sun Livistona nitida, shade Livistona australis, shade Probably no great surprises there. Someone send me 20 rivularis seedlings to torture please!

I’m definitely not trying to under play the importance of water to R rivularis. It’s a water hog and enjoys swampy conditions when it’s warm. Tyrone’s winter averages are significantly warmer than mine. He’s closer to Sydney averages than mine, and I’m closer to you than Tyrone. It doesn’t surprise me that R rivularis could grow nearly in standard water there, but it seems to be a different story for me and I suspect it’s just that routinely getting down around 2C or so and being boggy might be the combination that it wouldn’t like. All that being said, I haven’t tried in a truly boggy spot so who knows. They are common and available enough to give it a go so why not!

I accept that challenge Tim...nah, only joking...as a man with only one rivularis on hand, I have no intention of drowning it. However, if I had 20 it would be interesting to see what happens. @Tyrone mentioned the success of his clay based rivularis swamp in a climate half way between mine and yours, so maybe we're under playing the importance of water to this species? It's idle speculation probably but interesting to ponder...heres my hypothesis: If the palm isn't exposed to damaging frost or lethal low temperatures for that particular species, and Comes from a continuously wet and boggy natural habitat, and Is not generally sensitive to root rot diseases, and Has poor drought resistance, then Would it tolerate a swamp in Tasmania? Lol!

It would probably work here in Southern California under the right circumstances. No doubt that they love water . I have a very large one that I treated like most other palms . When I started watering more , the fronds doubled in size . If I see the ground dry around that palm , I give it a good soaking . Fortunately it is near a hose! Maybe , if I ever have a moat , it will triple. Harry

Sounds like it will end in tears 😭

I’ve learnt a lot on this over the years. Unfortunately I don’t think as simple as if a palm thrives in very wet conditions in habitat (eg R rivularis) then it will always be ok in very wet conditions in cultivation. In the tropics and subtropics sure; there’s very clear evidence that they can be grown in basically aquatic conditions when it’s warm enough. But I can guarantee with R rivularis if you try the same thing in Tassie it won’t go well (feel free to try to prove me wrong).

Yep, when these guys are happy, they are really something. Way under rated IMO. That Singapore gardens specimens reminds me of the habitat picture of R. musicalis. Reminds me of kelp growing in tidepools. One crazy genus..

Thanks Tim. I've got a bunch of reclinata that have lived in a couple of kiddies paddling pools for about 10 years. The pots are basically submerged all winter, with no probs at all, and had similar results with some Bangalows. The comments above got me thinking about the general relationship between cold, wet roots and palm health...ie, do species that like being very wet, prefer to always be very wet, even in winter, provided they're not super marginal?

Hard for me to say definitively, but I’d guess P reclinata is more hardy to cool conditions. P reclinata is almost weedy here even in deep shade; grows into massive clumps that can get a bit out of hand in certain situations. R rivularis only seems to thrive when conditions are right. They’ll languish a bit in deep shade even if kept moist.

Some nice examples there Tim, although I'm a bit concerned about the ethics of your bonsai experiment! Having said that, the realities of dry sand have been all too real for me for the last 20 years... Question: how does R rivularis compare to Phoenix reclinata in terms of cold tolerance?

Cold is there only enemy, the rest they can handle. A true aquatic the burringbar example!

Yes the Burringbar one is a great example. Not quite as extreme as the Singapore BGs example, but proof that they enjoy being saturated in the subtropics. Different story I think though when the winter average temperature is more around 10C like in my area. Would likely just invite rot.

They love there water, and sandy wet soil is the they love almost hydroponically. I have seen on growing at garden in a dam, up in burringbar. In a garden you have seen. And the one in Geelong botanical garden is proof that they will live in that microclimate.

They don’t like wind as you say, they get a bit tattered looking. That is one thing, the trunks on these palms get a big space restrictions as to where you plant them, they are a bargain the ones you got. They outgrow a container quite quickly and are robust container palms that need to be controlled! Richard

They are really a great palm, especially for what you’re using them for, they will create a microclimate that will be perfect for understory palms and garden that love shade, and if you have wet soil even more perfect, for the understory plants. Take out those pines, we talked about that one, and the damage they have done for you. Oh and you just snuck in the hybrid palm, the hybrid palm police are watching you, we have ways of making you talk! 🤣

Spot on I think - most look bad because of neglect and not enough natural rainfall rather than it being too cold. Some of the better ones I’ve seen are out in the outer Eastern suburbs in the foothills of the Dandenongs where it gets pretty chilly but receives more rainfall than near the CBD or around Bayside suburbs. Same goes for Archontophoenix. I will say though, that Ravenea rivularis was susceptible to crown rot for me when young in Spring. It’s grown out of it now, but I suspected it didn’t like cold and wet conditions while it was still establishing. I planted in a cooler area of the garden in mostly shade intentionally based on what I’ve seen with specimens that dry out too much, but I think that’s the opposite risk when you go too shady and cold. The best one in Victoria I’ve seen is the one at Geelong Botanic Gardens. It gets morning sun but is well protected from all sides from wind and looks to stay quite moist in that area. There are a few mature specimens around Melbourne - this one down the street from my place looks pretty good. Doesn’t look like it gets extra attention but I assume the roots have tapped down deep now. The tree to its north must help with preventing it drying out too much too. I planted this one nearly 25 years ago. It’s the only survivor of about 5 originally planted in this garden. Soil is nearly pure beach sand and no irrigation. This is the result 🤣. And here’s an interesting planting - Singapore Botanic Gardens have them as aquatics. They like it in there in the tropical climate, but I’m certain it would be a death sentence in cooler climates.

That's really interesting Tyrone, I'd have thought that they'd want to be a bit on the drier side over winter, but clearly not. I think @tim_brissy_13 mentioned to me that they often look pretty crappy around Melbourne, which I assumed was due to lack of heat, but maybe it's mainly due to lack of water?? I've got a big one in a pot that I rescued from my neighbours greenhouse last year, along with a golden cane, both were dry as bones and totally neglected. The rivularis pushed a small crinkled new leaf after being potted up but is now looking really good with normal sized new leaves. I was contemplating whether/where/when to plant it out, or leave it in a pot...this is food for thought. Also have a rivularis x hildebrandtii that Colin sent me, which might have a bit of hybrid vigour. Hybrids aren't really my shtick but this could be a nice looking palm I hope!

Looking great Richard. I tried some in shade and they just slowly declined in my climate. Not enough summer heat. However I saved most of the shade declining ones by digging them up and putting them into full sun in a perpetually wet spot with white clay below the surface and they just took off. I’ve got I think 15 planted in the same spot at varying stages of growth but when they all start to trunk it’s going to be great to walk underneath the canopy they will create. In winter, like right now, the area is literally oozing water from the ground. Mine have started growing pneumatophore roots like a Raphia or a mangrove. I’m hoping they will set seed one day, however they are not that popular any more and most WA soils are crappy gutless sand which they just hate unless you constantly feed them with fertiliser and leave the hose running on them 24/7. They are tough. In the middle of January (summer here) I took some 30cm high seedlings out of the shadehouse and whacked them in the ground in full sun but in heavy wet soil and a week later we had a 42.5C day and I expected them to just be fried. No, they didn’t even fade. As long as they are wet they will take tons of sun, and they can take light frost in winter. Heavier frost creates damage but they are so quick to regrow it doesn’t cause lasting harm. One of my tallest trunking ones took a direct hit from a dead pine tree I cut down that fell the wrong way. I was devastated and thought the growing point may have been shattered. No. Some leaves were damaged but two years later you wouldn’t even know. I love them. They are a real feature in the garden. A totally under rated and under utilised palm in my area.

I have one in the ground that gets sun most of the day . That doesn’t seem to bother it as much as wind. The wind can strip the leaves from older fronds . The trunk gets very large on these. I have two in pots that I got on the clearance rack for $3 each . They will stay in pots along our fence line in mostly shade. Harry

I grew up in rural eastern Oklahoma where I never saw palms in person. I didn't even enjoy gardening as a kid, since it meant hard work in hot weather. I did like the outdoors though, and I come from a line of florists and greenhouse owners. (Grandparents and great grandparents) After high school I was a missionary for a couple of years in region IV of the Philippines. I really enjoyed my time there, and I came to love the people and the land. Although I was happy to come home to the USA when my time was up, I have always missed the Philippines to some extent since then. I got into palms and tropicals because they reminded me of the landscapes of Laguna, Quezon, Batangas, and Mindoro. So, for the last twenty years I have been growing palms and making friends with any Filipinos I meet. It has been a fun way to stay connected with that part of my life, but that dormant gardener DNA in my family line woke up somewhere along the way. Gardening is now favorite hobby. Outside of family and work, palm growers and Filipino friends are some of the only people I keep up with. I am fast approaching the 20th anniversary of this photo from my last week or two in the Philippines: Bulaklak beach, near Pinamalayan, Oriental Mindoro. Late October 2006. Salamat sa pagbasa nyo!

Took a trip to Ft Lauderdale when I was 4 and enjoyed all the coconut palms on the beach. Had an appreciation for them ever since.