Canary island date palm hardiness

[COpalms]

I was wondering from your experience or other peoples experience you've heard or even what you've seen online, how hardy is the canary island date palm? i hear contradictory statements so I would like to hear from other people to know what your experience is.

[kinzyjr]

Take a look at the Cold Hardiness Observation Master Data thread. 

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/61358-0000-cold-hardiness-observation-master-data/?&page=2

The latest revision thus far is at the bottom of Page 2.  The sheet combines the hardiness observations from this site and several other sources and can be filtered by genus, species, etc.

[SeanK]

CIDP seems to be the most cold hardy AND tolerant of moisture. That being said, cold in a dry climate is usually brief. 

I was in ABQ about 20 years back with nights at 0°F. Each afternoon topped 32°. I live in ATL. If we see a 0° night, we would stay below freezing at least 72 hours.

[Xerarch]

17 degrees and a TON of wind 100% defoliated every CIDP here in Corpus Christi in this very humid climate in 2021.  The vast majority of them made a full recovery.  Mind you that kind of event is very rare in these parts and the rest of the winter was mild, no repetitive freezes and cold temps continuing through winter months.  Meanwhile I know they've survived 0 degrees in St. George Utah, like in 2007, again a very rare temperature for them, but it's dry and temps rebounded during the day.  That doesn't mean they would have a chance somewhere that gets to zero multiple times all winter long and stays cold for long periods.

[ahosey01]

In a dry climate these things are insane in their propensity for survival.  They will fry at temps around 20 or so, but there are some big, fat, mature ones in Alamogordo, NM that lived through a sub -15F freeze near a Long John Silver's.  It's hard to freeze the bud to death when there's just that much meat on the palm.

I think in terms of absolute survival of ridiculously low temperatures, I'm not sure there are any palms that are better suited to the job than a mature canary in a dry climate.

Other palms do better in wet climates, other palms are leaf hardier, other palms will endure longer periods of sub-freezing (i.e. a couple weeks below freezing probably won't kill a Sabal minor).  But the canary, by-and-by, when mature and fat (and probably still retaining a good chunk of its leaf bases, not perfectly skinned) is most likely going to survive (not look good) the lowest temperatures in a dry climate of any palm I can think of.

My opinion, someone will be mad at it.  lol

[Ben G.]

3 hours ago, ahosey01 said:

 

My opinion, someone will be mad at it.  lol

I agree with your statements about CIDP, but your last line may be the truest of all.

[SeanK]

11 hours ago, ahosey01 said:

In a dry climate these things are insane in their propensity for survival.  They will fry at temps around 20 or so, but there are some big, fat, mature ones in Alamogordo, NM that lived through a sub -15F freeze near a Long John Silver's.  It's hard to freeze the bud to death when there's just that much meat on the palm.

I think in terms of absolute survival of ridiculously low temperatures, I'm not sure there are any palms that are better suited to the job than a mature canary in a dry climate.

Other palms do better in wet climates, other palms are leaf hardier, other palms will endure longer periods of sub-freezing (i.e. a couple weeks below freezing probably won't kill a Sabal minor).  But the canary, by-and-by, when mature and fat (and probably still retaining a good chunk of its leaf bases, not perfectly skinned) is most likely going to survive (not look good) the lowest temperatures in a dry climate of any palm I can think of.

My opinion, someone will be mad at it.  lol

Ask a person to stand with short sleeves in a 0° freezer for 30 seconds; easy.

Ask a person to stand with short sleeves in a 0° freezer for 30 minutes. There's the difference.

[jwitt]

Their ultimate cold hardiness is unknown in my book. Leaf hardiness is known. That said, people claim the cold in Alamogordo was short. That is a lie as the temperature graph proves.  Also they survived in St George with a week of below freezing and lows of zero. 

That said, they need a long growing season, of which ABQ is unable to support. 

Alamogordo 

[ahosey01]

1 hour ago, SeanK said:

Ask a person to stand with short sleeves in a 0° freezer for 30 seconds; easy.

Ask a person to stand with short sleeves in a 0° freezer for 30 minutes. There's the difference.

This is a fantastic metaphor lol

[jwitt]

7 minutes ago, ahosey01 said:

This is a fantastic metaphor lol

Although factual temperatures speak otherwise. 

Fact not feelings. 

[ahosey01]

1 hour ago, jwitt said:

Although factual temperatures speak otherwise. 

Fact not feelings. 

I'm not exactly sure what you are referring to here... I thought Sean had an clever and clear metaphor to distinguish between short and long term cold duration.  That isn't really a matter of facts or temperatures.  Your response to my commentary is confusing to me.

[jwitt]

No it is clever. 

Where is the short freeze you guys seem to allude to where these palms survived?

Heck they seemed to have survived the recent Texas Armageddon also! 

So while spouting short term, or long term, provide an example where they died from the cold.  

Data sure suggests otherwise whether wet or dry. 

Maybe it is solar insolation?

[ahosey01]

19 minutes ago, jwitt said:

No it is clever. 

Where is the short freeze you guys seem to allude to where these palms survived?

Heck they seemed to have survived the recent Texas Armageddon also! 

So while spouting short term, or long term, provide an example where they died from the cold.  

Data sure suggests otherwise whether wet or dry. 

Maybe it is solar insolation?

I'm basically only saying you can't keep a canary alive in southeast oklahoma but you can keep a sabal minor there.  Tone is hard to infer from text but you seem animated and I'm still not quite understanding.

[jwitt]

At the end of the day, this species has survived below zero both long and short, and wet and dry. 

I stand by my assertion that a large healthy specimen ultimate cold hardiness is presently unknown. 

And yes I also believe mass plays into it. 

Thi

[NBTX11]

Survived 9 degrees and multiple days below freezing in New Braunfels TX. Essentially all survived. Unbelievably hardy. 

[jwitt]

7 minutes ago, ahosey01 said:

I'm basically only saying you can't keep a canary alive in southeast oklahoma but you can keep a sabal minor there.

Don't disagree. Same can be said about ABQ. 

It is not the ultimate cold killing them in ABQ,  it is the recovery that is the problem. 

In some places they survive below zero. Dallas, El Paso, St George, Alamogordo, Shreveport with some incredibly long freezes.  At least that what the data says. 

[jwitt]

Also there are more in Alamogordo that survived. 

I am the person who used the Long John example on early reporting on this palm 

Why?

They were the ones fully exposed to the east wind.  

IYKYk

[Las Palmas Norte]

All this about survival and resilience, and not a single Washingtonia can live in PNW zones 8-9a without winter protection. Climate will determine rather than temperature alone.

[jwitt]

20 hours ago, COpalms said:

I was wondering from your experience or other peoples experience you've heard or even what you've seen online, how hardy is the canary island date palm? i hear contradictory statements so I would like to hear from other people to know what your experience is.

The palm defoliates around 15-20f. The palm will decline if defoliation happens yearly as it takes more than 1 growing season to grow a full crown. 

The ultimate cold hardiness is probably unknown as specimens have survived multiple nights below zero and recovered. 

Kind of cool for a cold hardy palm. It may live if protection was lost on a below zero night. Or two.  

[jwitt]

27 minutes ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

All this about survival and resilience, and not a single Washingtonia can live in PNW zones 8-9a without winter protection. Climate will determine rather than temperature alone.

Was about cidp, not washingtonia. 

Cidp in Ireland

[UK_Palms]

18 hours ago, ahosey01 said:

In a dry climate these things are insane in their propensity for survival.  They will fry at temps around 20 or so, but there are some big, fat, mature ones in Alamogordo, NM that lived through a sub -15F freeze near a Long John Silver's.  It's hard to freeze the bud to death when there's just that much meat on the palm.

I think in terms of absolute survival of ridiculously low temperatures, I'm not sure there are any palms that are better suited to the job than a mature canary in a dry climate.

Other palms do better in wet climates, other palms are leaf hardier, other palms will endure longer periods of sub-freezing (i.e. a couple weeks below freezing probably won't kill a Sabal minor).  But the canary, by-and-by, when mature and fat (and probably still retaining a good chunk of its leaf bases, not perfectly skinned) is most likely going to survive (not look good) the lowest temperatures in a dry climate of any palm I can think of.

My opinion, someone will be mad at it.  lol

I know this has been discussed before previously, but there is no way in hell that those Alamogordo CIDP's saw -15F / -26C and came back okay. Assuming the airport weather station equipment was accurate that night, I will accept that reading out in the open at the airport. However next to that diner in a different spot, it never could have got colder than about -5F there. And I have to question whether or not they were proactively wrapped up as well by the owner to ensure survival. There is a good chance they were.

At high elevation in the Atlas areas of Morocco, which is even drier than New Mexico, Canary Island date palms were killed dead by 0F to -5F a few years back. A row of them got hit in a small village high up, and not a single one came back. They were bigger than the Alamogordo ones as well. I believe the absolute minimum was about -20C / -4F / -5F maybe, with only about 4-5 days/nights below freezing, yet all of the CIDP's in that village succumbed. As did a Dactylifera (expected) and also a Washingtonia Filifera. All killed stone dead.

Even if the internal bud survives the freeze event, which I'm sure it can within the chunky trunks of CIDP and Washingtonia Filifera, the actual growing point is still completely damaged beyond salvation and they just won't be able to regrow again. The absolute upper limit to get around that is about -19C / -2F. There was a few cases of CIDP's coming back from 0F to -2F in Dallas during the Feb 2021 event. A few just survived -2F / -3F at the next village down in the Moroccan Atlas. But -4F / -5F wiped out the ones slightly higher up in the Atlas. I am yet to see any conclusive evidence of CIDP surviving anything worse than that anywhere.

[Fusca]

5 hours ago, jwitt said:

Although factual temperatures speak otherwise. 

Fact not feelings. 

Tell me if I'm wrong, but I'm having a little trouble understanding the chart without clear X-axis labeling or title.  Based on the "28" label I am assuming that it represents Feb. 28 and the data for March is to the right of that vertical line and each section of points between vertical lines represents roughly 2 weeks of data?  Are all the points daily minimums or are there daily maximums plotted in there also?  Does the blue line represent an average "normal" minimum and the red line an average "normal" maximum which if so makes me think that daily min and max are plotted together.  And if that's the case it looks like Alamogordo went roughly 10 consecutive days without going above freezing in January of whatever year this is which I assume is the point that you're trying to make.

[UK_Palms]

7 hours ago, jwitt said:

That said, they need a long growing season, of which ABQ is unable to support. 

 

CIDP certainly do not really need any heat at all, or much sunshine, which is evidenced by the ones growing over here. They seem to like it pretty mild with no extremes and a decent amount of irrigation as well. The ones in London for instance have bigger, fuller, healthier crowns than just about anywhere. In fact there is an argument that the ones in southern England actually grow a bit faster than those in southern California or the Mediterranean basin, likely due to the cooler summers and a greater abundance of rainfall.

People talk about the absolute temperature limit that they can withstand in a dry desert climate, but the fact of the matter is that they do not like any kind of major freeze whatsoever. Even on large, mature specimens the crown will defoliate at -7C / 21F in damp/humid winter climates, and then they will spend the whole of the spring and summer replenishing the crown again, and still not fully recover before the same thing just happens again the following winter. At which point they just go into decline and never look good. They basically won't grow and sooner or later the growing point will succumb.

I am pretty sure this is what happens to some of the ones in marginal areas like coastal North Carolina and the PNW above Gold Beach. The rule of thumb with CIDP is that if you see colder than -5C / 23F during an average winter in your area, don't even bother with CIDP. Mature specimens will survive a freak freeze and very cold nights, sure, but they need a run of years where there is nothing below -4C / 25F to keep them growing well and keep the crowns full and healthy. Get 2-3 winters in a row of -7C / 19F and they are goners. Or at least they will be reduced to an ugly stump with distorted growth, a tiny little crown and a lack of vigour and the spears rotting over and over. Just waiting to kick the bucket the following winter.

[jwitt]

2 hours ago, Fusca said:

Tell me if I'm wrong, but I'm having a little trouble understanding the chart without clear X-axis labeling or title.  Based on the "28" label I am assuming that it represents Feb. 28 and the data for March is to the right of that vertical line and each section of points between vertical lines represents roughly 2 weeks of data?  Are all the points daily minimums or are there daily maximums plotted in there also?  Does the blue line represent an average "normal" minimum and the red line an average "normal" maximum which if so makes me think that daily min and max are plotted together.  And if that's the case it looks like Alamogordo went roughly 10 consecutive days without going above freezing in January of whatever year this is which I assume is the point that you're trying to make.

Each vertical line represents 7days(1 week). The dark vertical line after JAN is the end of January and the start of February.  Yes the graph shows the real-time data including highs and lows. February 1 and 2 are a bit confusing as the temperature was dropping for nearly 36 hours straight.  You can see most of the high/lows and about 7 in each segment(1week).  The red and blue lines are normal high/lows for each date. 

So about 5 days below freezing and nearly 72 hours (3 days) below 12f.

[jwitt]

2 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

 

CIDP certainly do not really need any heat at all, or much sunshine, which is evidenced by the ones growing over here. They seem to like it pretty mild with no extremes and a decent amount of irrigation as well. The ones in London for instance have bigger, fuller, healthier crowns than just about anywhere. In fact there is an argument that the ones in southern England actually grow a bit faster than those in southern California or the Mediterranean basin, likely due to the cooler summers and a greater abundance of rainfall.

People talk about the absolute temperature limit that they can withstand in a dry desert climate, but the fact of the matter is that they do not like any kind of major freeze whatsoever. Even on large, mature specimens the crown will defoliate at -7C / 21F in damp/humid winter climates, and then they will spend the whole of the spring and summer replenishing the crown again, and still not fully recover before the same thing just happens again the following winter. At which point they just go into decline and never look good. They basically won't grow and sooner or later the growing point will succumb.

I am pretty sure this is what happens to some of the ones in marginal areas like coastal North Carolina and the PNW above Gold Beach. The rule of thumb with CIDP is that if you see colder than -5C / 23F during an average winter in your area, don't even bother with CIDP. Mature specimens will survive a freak freeze and very cold nights, sure, but they need a run of years where there is nothing below -4C / 25F to keep them growing well and keep the crowns full and healthy. Get 2-3 winters in a row of -7C / 19F and they are goners. Or at least they will be reduced to an ugly stump with distorted growth, a tiny little crown and a lack of vigour and the spears rotting over and over. Just waiting to kick the bucket the following winter.

Yet they grow in zone 8 climates in some places long term. Weird.

Zone 8a recovery in May of this year

[UK_Palms]

33 minutes ago, jwitt said:

Yet they grow in zone 8 climates in some places long term. Weird.

Zone 8a recovery in May of this year

Can you say with absolute certainty that they were not wrapped and protected back in 2011, or whenever that bad -15F freeze was…? I mean we are talking over a decade ago as well when they would have been much smaller and less hardy at a smaller size too. Yet you expect me to believe they came through -26C / -15F at a smallish size. Mature Trachycarpus Fortunei are killed stone dead at -18C to -20C / 0F to -5F.

Come to think of it, I remember hearing that CIDP was tested in a Dutch lab and found to be leaf hardy down to -6C / 21F and bud hardy down to -19C / -2F. Beyond that the central growing point is getting damaged beyond recovery and the interior bud is getting nuked as well as anything below 0F is going to come during a prolonged sub-freezing period. No chance of survival without protection at -26C / -15F for CIDP.

In fact many CIDP’s just inland from the French Med were wiped out in the 2010 and 2018 freeze events from a dry -12C / 10F. Again CIDP’s killed stone dead just inland from the coast there from a totally dry -12C / 10F. Only stumps remained. Yet you expect me to believe the Alamogordo ones came through -26C / -15F…!?

[jwitt]

20 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

Can you say with absolute certainty that they were not wrapped and protected back in 2011, or whenever that bad -15F freeze was…? I mean we are talking over a decade ago as well when they would have been much smaller and less hardy at a smaller size too. Yet you expect me to believe they came through -26C / -15F at a smallish size. Mature Trachycarpus Fortunei are killed stone dead at -18C to -20C / 0F to -5F.

Come to think of it, I remember hearing that CIDP was tested in a Dutch lab and found to be leaf hardy down to -6C / 21F and bud hardy down to -19C / -2F. Beyond that the central growing point is getting damaged beyond recovery and the interior bud is getting nuked as well as anything below 0F is going to come during a prolonged sub-freezing period. No chance of survival without protection at -26C / -15F for CIDP.

In fact many CIDP’s just inland from the French Med were wiped out in the 2010 and 2018 freeze events from a dry -12C / 10F. Again CIDP’s killed stone dead just inland from the coast there from a totally dry -12C / 10F. Only stumps remained. Yet you expect me to believe the Alamogordo ones came through -26C / -15F…!?

They are not the only ones in Alamogordo. Are we saying they were all protected?

Yes, on good authority, although not my own eyes,  these two were not protected.  

Nearby El Paso shows a nearly 100% survival rate at 2 consecutive nights at zero using street view.  In fact, El Paso has a few survivors still living from the -8f in 1962! 

Now throw in wetter Dallas, Shreveport and they also had zero survivors in another event. 

In fact I like to use these Alamogordo examples as they were totally exposed to the wind that brought the rain, snow and cold. 

I won't mention Las Cruces and the -5f those CIDP's saw in 2011. 

 

 

[UK_Palms]

1 hour ago, jwitt said:

They are not the only ones in Alamogordo. Are we saying they were all protected?

Yes, on good authority, although not my own eyes,  these two were not protected.  

Nearby El Paso shows a nearly 100% survival rate at 2 consecutive nights at zero using street view.  In fact, El Paso has a few survivors still living from the -8f in 1962! 

Now throw in wetter Dallas, Shreveport and they also had zero survivors in another event. 

In fact I like to use these Alamogordo examples as they were totally exposed to the wind that brought the rain, snow and cold. 

I won't mention Las Cruces and the -5f those CIDP's saw in 2011. 

 

 

 

Plenty of Robusta leaning hybrids, or even pure Robusta's, lurking around the town. Many that were fairly small at the time of the freeze. Not a chance I am believing that numerous Robusta's took -26C / -15F back then either, at a small size.

I think the airport reading was erroneous and the town itself was much less cold than you are suggesting. More like 0F to -5F as an absolute minima in the metro part of the town. Hence why the CIDP's have pulled through as well.

I still find it hard to believe that the Robusta's would survive that even. Robusta's were wiped out in Texas in places that saw +10F to +5F in February 2021. Yet the Alamogordo Robusta's could all somehow survive an extra 20-25F of cold...? 🤔

[jwitt]

@UK_Palms "I think the airport reading was erroneous and the town itself was much less cold than you are suggesting. More like 0F to -5F as an absolute minima in the metro part of the town. Hence why the CIDP's have pulled through as well"

Excellent information!! Good to know! Truth be told, it was actually colder, that is why I used the warmest reading from that town. IYKYK.

"I still find it hard to believe that the Robusta's would survive that even. Robusta's were wiped out in Texas in places that saw +10F to +5F in February 2021. Yet the Alamogordo Robusta's could all somehow survive an extra 20-25F of cold...? 🤔"

Maybe you should school yourself in that February Texas event. Once you did, you would see that Highland Park had a zone ten winter(preceding the event)(warmest on record) minus 2 nights at 29f. Things might make a bit more sense on why that event was "so" devastating. .  My take. 

Hint, look up Highland Park and where it is for a clue. 

All that being said, Alamogordo is a zone 8a. Even that fact and those palms is somewhat startling.  Little publicized fact is the December following the big February event, Alamogordo saw mid single digits for lows.  That is wild in my mind knowing what recovered, and is in place more than a decade later. 

But this is about CIDP.  And I will state emphatically again, I believe CIDP ultimate cold hardiness remains unknown as the Texas(2021) and NM(2011) events portend. 

Leaf hardiness is known. 

 

 

 

 

[UK_Palms]

@jwitt Leaf hardiness and bud hardiness are both known as it has been tested in a lab. The interior bud of Phoenix Canariensis is not surviving anything colder than -19C / -20C or -2F / -4F and that is in a dry, desert climate with excellent spring/summer recovery from a lot of heat and sunshine proceeding an extreme freeze event. Although anything beyond 2 weeks of subzero conditions will also be a death sentence as well to that interior bud, even if the ultimate low stays above say +5F.

Of course in many locations that are more humid and have less year-round heat or sunshine, they will be even less hardy with -12C / 10F enough to wipe them out completely, as evidenced by previous events around the French Med. So the -2F / -4F upper limit isn’t even applicable in most locations anyway. A serious freeze down to +5F will be enough to destroy the growing point and kill the bud in many locations. Some specimens may come back from that, but others will die.

Also a member on this forum, CollectorPalms, had -16C / 3F and about 10 days below freezing in College Station during the 2021 Texas freeze. That killed all 3 of his mature Robusta’s. Even in Houston they had Robusta’s die from -12C / 10F and maybe about 4/5 days below freezing. Some came back in Houston obviously, but a lot died. So Robusta’s definitely aren’t that hardy. -15C / +5F really is the upper limit and for short duration in a dry, desert climate.

You are never going to get me to believe that smallish Robusta’s would take -26C / -15F in Alamogordo and yet came back fine. The same with Phoenix Canariensis. I don’t know what the real temperature was back then during that freeze event in Alamogordo, but it sure as hell wasn’t the -26C / -15F that you are claiming, and that is that. Again Robusta’s have been killed in Morocco in a dry, desert climate at low elevations of the Atlas Mountains from about -14C / 7F.

[jwitt]

21 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

@jwitt Leaf hardiness and bud hardiness are both known as it has been tested in a lab. The interior bud of Phoenix Canariensis is not surviving anything colder than -19C / -20C or -2F / -4F and that is in a dry, desert climate with excellent spring/summer recovery from a lot of heat and sunshine proceeding an extreme freeze event. Although anything beyond 2 weeks of subzero conditions will also be a death sentence as well to that interior bud, even if the ultimate low stays above say +5F.

Of course in many locations that are more humid and have less year-round heat or sunshine, they will be even less hardy with -12C / 10F enough to wipe them out completely, as evidenced by previous events around the French Med. So the -2F / -4F upper limit isn’t even applicable in most locations anyway. A serious freeze down to +5F will be enough to destroy the growing point and kill the bud in many locations. Some specimens may come back from that, but others will die.

Also a member on this forum, CollectorPalms, had -16C / 3F and about 10 days below freezing in College Station during the 2021 Texas freeze. That killed all 3 of his mature Robusta’s. Even in Houston they had Robusta’s die from -12C / 10F and maybe about 4/5 days below freezing. Some came back in Houston obviously, but a lot died. So Robusta’s definitely aren’t that hardy. -15C / +5F really is the upper limit and for short duration in a dry, desert climate.

You are never going to get me to believe that smallish Robusta’s would take -26C / -15F in Alamogordo and yet came back fine. The same with Phoenix Canariensis. I don’t know what the real temperature was back then during that freeze event in Alamogordo, but it sure as hell wasn’t the -26C / -15F that you are claiming, and that is that. Again Robusta’s have been killed in Morocco in a dry, desert climate at low elevations of the Atlas Mountains from about -14C / 7F.

West El Paso and Las Cruces also prove you wrong regarding temperatures and palm survival well below zero.  In fact I bet you cannot find a dead CIDP in El Paso following the 2011 event. Easy using street view and the 8/2011 dates. 

You seem to disregard what I said about Texas and the preceding warmth of that winter. Late spring that far south, coupled with that warm winter spells disaster.  That cold was late February......which is spring in those parts. 

 

[UK_Palms]

29 minutes ago, jwitt said:

West El Paso and Las Cruces also prove you wrong regarding temperatures and palm survival well below zero.  In fact I bet you cannot find a dead CIDP in El Paso following the 2011 event. Easy using street view and the 8/2011 dates. 

You seem to disregard what I said about Texas and the preceding warmth of that winter. Late spring that far south, coupled with that warm winter spells disaster.  That cold was late February......which is spring in those parts. 

Just checked and El Paso had a -17C / 1F minimum night and a -9C / 15F maximum day back in 2011. I would hedge a bet that was the airport temps as well out in the open, so the actual urban city area was slightly less cold than that. Probably not much colder than +5F on the coldest night where most of the palms are. We already know that CIDP can survive that in areas with lots of sunshine and good temperature recovery in spring, providing it isn’t a yearly occurrence.

So El Paso wasn’t even as bad as what Dallas had in February 2021, which was at least -18C / -1F minima and -13C / 9F maxima on 1-2 days/nights. I think the airport had -19C / -2F but would have been marginally colder than street level obviously. Anyway there are some examples of CIDP coming back from the 2021 freeze in Dallas, which is arguably the most extreme CIDP survival that has been properly documented legitimately (-18C / -19C minimum and 2 weeks below freezing). I am yet to see anywhere beat that for the intensity and duration combined.

I don’t know how cold it got in St George, Utah exactly, but it will have a hard time beating Dallas’s duration below freezing with that -18C / -19C minima and 2 weeks of sub-freezing temps. I suspect that is pretty much the upper limits of what they can survive. Although it helped that Dallas had 27C / 80F a week after that freeze lol. I would say at a push, a mature and particularly hardy specimen could come back from -20C / -4F and 2 weeks below freezing with excellent spring recovery in a very warm and sunny climate in general.

[jwitt]

Hence the use of west "El Paso and Las Cruces" (first three words)in my comment.  You seem to have a problem reading or comprehension of facts.

And like proven in a previous post, 1962(-8f) puts your arguments to rest. 

Facts are facts

Facts and data speak for themselves, regardless of your feelings. 

Numerous locales and corresponding data(which have been listed) disprove your feelings. 

Your very last sentence contradicts your  previous post. So which one is incorrect? That's what the data says. 

Not sure I would call an 8a climate "very warm". 

You seem to be all over the place on this. 

Again with the reading comprehension, you keep saying -15f.  Are you making stuff up also?

Also, where was the CIDP die off in Texas from the cold you seem concerned with. I don't think that happened, even on the few in N Texas. 

This post is about CIDP, not washies. 

Lac Cruces and Alamogordo beat DFW much so on intensity.  

 

 

[jwitt]

Continuing with intensity, El Paso also beat Dallas.  

 

Lows

Dallas love field 11/6/2

El Paso int 6/1/3

 

[UK_Palms]

18 hours ago, jwitt said:

Continuing with intensity, El Paso also beat Dallas.  

 

Lows

Dallas love field 11/6/2

El Paso int 6/1/3

 

El Paso international airport - lows of 6F, 2F and 4F with about 60-72 hours below freezing.

DFW International airport - lows of 10F, 4F and -1F with about 230-240 hours below freezing.

 

So the Dallas area had the lower minimum, just. It also had a much more prolonged freeze in general with about 10 days/nights or 240 hours below freezing. Compared to about 3 days/nights or 60-72 hours for El Paso. So Dallas definitely faired a lot worse in February 2021 than El Paso did in January 2011. The duration being the main factor there, but also the absolute minimum being 2-3F colder in Dallas too. I know they officially measured -2F as a minimum there.

Again some Phoenix Canariensis did come back from that event in Dallas, which remains the most extreme freeze that I have heard of any CIDP pulling through when you take into account the absolute minimum and duration combined. Other places like El Paso, Alamogordo, St George etc seem to have had much shorter duration freezes. Also you mention Las Cruces in one of your previous posts, but isn’t that just Washingtonia Filifera there…? Looking at Wunderground these are the temperatures shown for Las Cruces in February 2011… ultimate lows of +1F and 0F. Again about 60-72 hours below freezing as well. 🤔

[Banana Belt]

From my experience a CIDP hardiness depends on how old the palm is.  The older a palm is the hardier it gets.  Young CIDP'S are less hardy than older ones and I believe this is probably true for all palms.

[jwitt]

2 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

El Paso international airport - lows of 6F, 2F and 4F with about 60-72 hours below freezing.

DFW International airport - lows of 10F, 4F and -1F with about 230-240 hours below freezing.

 

So the Dallas area had the lower minimum, just. It also had a much more prolonged freeze in general with about 10 days/nights or 240 hours below freezing. Compared to about 3 days/nights or 60-72 hours for El Paso. So Dallas definitely faired a lot worse in February 2021 than El Paso did in January 2011. The duration being the main factor there, but also the absolute minimum being 2-3F colder in Dallas too. I know they officially measured -2F as a minimum there.

Again some Phoenix Canariensis did come back from that event in Dallas, which remains the most extreme freeze that I have heard of any CIDP pulling through when you take into account the absolute minimum and duration combined. Other places like El Paso, Alamogordo, St George etc seem to have had much shorter duration freezes. Also you mention Las Cruces in one of your previous posts, but isn’t that just Washingtonia Filifera there…? Looking at Wunderground these are the temperatures shown for Las Cruces in February 2011… ultimate lows of +1F and 0F. Again about 60-72 hours below freezing as well. 🤔

CIDP(and dact) in Las Cruces.

Yes, shorter duration in the SW than Dallas, but deeper cold. Back to back nights of -10f in Alamogordo. 

For Las Cruces, the airport is west and uphill of the city. The -5f(nmsu)is smack dab in the center of the city(where palms are).  As you went east towards the mountains, it was even colder. 

But my point is concerning DFW, with the few CIDP's that were there, most were recovering following the event. They were not flat out killed.  El Paso has literally hundreds(if not thousands) and it is hard to find any that succumbed. Even colder Alamogordo has survivors(and Las Cruces). 

Also other parts of Texas showed a very high percentage of survival. Very high.  That was my ultimate point concerning this species.  So we have multiple data points from multiple events(NM-2011, Tx-2021, St. George-2013) showing a much colder lethality than previously published or known.  

These are the lows. Showing the -5 in Las Cruces, -10 in Alamogordo, and zero, below zero in west/upper valley El Paso. 

 

 

[jwitt]

Official temps DFW/El Paso int/Dallas Love

Not weather underground

[Sabal King]

There is a very large P. canariensis here in NTX suburbs (little elm).  It's probably 20' tall, tons of fronds, and looks incredible.  It survived '21 unprotected, and every other year obviously for its age.  Driving by it all year inspired me to plant a 3 gallon specimen myself, just a few miles away.

This parent palm is in an area that it is NOT taken care of, yet has powered through these rough winters!

[UK_Palms]

5 hours ago, jwitt said:

Yes, shorter duration in the SW than Dallas, but deeper cold. Back to back nights of -10f in Alamogordo.

 

Right, so if it really was -10F / -23.3C in Alamogordo on 2 consecutive nights, that means Washingtonia Robusta is actually hardy down to at least -23C / -24C. That seems ludicrous and would also suggest that a fat trunked Filifera would take something crazy like -25C to -30C.

 

This is somewhat relevant to the discussion of CIDP hardiness by establishing the exact minima that was seen at Alamogordo, which I have been questioning... and do still question. Only due to how ludicrous it sounds, that Robusta's would come through that. 🤔