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Polar Vortex 2022...... who's ready?


Sabal King

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8 minutes ago, Xenon said:

I think it was asked before: How long has your queen palm been in the ground? At what size was it planted? How much has it grown? 

The largest 3 and a bit years. It's grown maybe 4-5ft ish. The base has definitely become much larger and more swollen than when I originally planted it. Even if queen palms only make 3-4 fronds a year I find with each new frond they grow a good amount vertically compared to other palms.

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29 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

@UK_PalmsThat's what I noticed with ventnor,it seems to be warmer than nearby costal locations on the isle of wight due to the massive hills surrounding the area sometimes causing the foehn effect. The costal areas around lizard the only part of mainland UK at 49N I image would be very mild too considering it's a peninsula. St Michael's mount would also be an ideal location, on the mainland near the car park there that's where I planted an archontophoenix cunninghamiana. 

Well I was in Ventnor during the back end of September 2021 and the days were consistently in the 70-75F range and sunny with no rain. Kind of Mediterranean-like there as well. Those hills/mountains to the north definitely block cold fronts and rain, but not much in way of foehn effect from my understanding.

Also southwest Cornwall is located at 50N, except for the far southwest tip at 49.98N. The Scilly Isles are located at 49.93N, but you may as well round them up to 50N. I certainly don't consider them as being 49N for that reason. Both are further north than Tofino in BC, Canada unbelievably.

Just snooping around Falmouth, Cornwall (50N) checking out growth rates on CIDP. This one went from this in 2009...

1589659001_Screenshot2023-02-03at20_31_56.thumb.png.c79a5ea58bb782169bbc80c6181f670c.png

 

To this in 2022...

510041903_Screenshot2023-02-03at20_29_36.thumb.png.8d44f34738dfea06cd2b8472363d6208.png

 

They need to get some Queens down there.

Edited by UK_Palms
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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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10 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

Well I was in Ventnor during the back end of September 2021 and the days were consistently in the 70-75F range and sunny with no rain. Kind of Mediterranean-like there as well. Those hills/mountains to the north definitely block cold fronts and rain, but not much in way of foehn effect from my understanding.

Also southwest Cornwall is located at 50N, except for the far southwest tip at 49.98N. The Scilly Isles are located at 49.93N, but you may as well round them up to 50N. I certainly don't consider them as being 49N for that reason. Both are further north than Tofino in BC, Canada unbelievably.

Just snooping around Falmouth, Cornwall (50N) checking out growth rates on CIDP. This one went from this in 2009...

1589659001_Screenshot2023-02-03at20_31_56.thumb.png.c79a5ea58bb782169bbc80c6181f670c.png

 

To this in 2022...

510041903_Screenshot2023-02-03at20_29_36.thumb.png.8d44f34738dfea06cd2b8472363d6208.png

 

They need to get some Queens down there.

When checking the annual rainfall for ventnor some websites say it's 28 inches whilst others say it's 11.2 inches. The wunderground station has only recorded 3.61 inches of rain from July last year to now. It's quite a bit drier than the surrounding towns which would suggest to me that it's raining more on the other sides of the hills and as the air travels over them and travels down the slope into ventnor it must be warmer and drier. At the very tops of the hills there are some mini valleys that also in the summer probably would funnel more inland air on the isle of wight down into Ventnor such as here 

Screenshot_20230203-210639283 (1).jpg

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2 hours ago, Foxpalms said:

The largest 3 and a bit years. It's grown maybe 4-5ft ish. The base has definitely become much larger and more swollen than when I originally planted it. Even if queen palms only make 3-4 fronds a year I find with each new frond they grow a good amount vertically compared to other palms.

This is the picture you posted in december of your largest queen. I have no doubts it grows in your London garden but it does seem very similar to the one i posted, meaning very few somewhat stretched fronds. This is not doing 3 to 4 fronds per year would be my guess and that is still my point. I hope you can post some better pictures.

8280597B-F9E2-4CCC-AF41-4E0E7D9C1182.jpeg

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@Axel Amsterdam I don’t know what you are expecting mate. 15-20 foot Queens that have been store brought and ready to go strong like they get in Texas, Florida, California etc? That isn’t a possibility over here. Like you just can’t source them. I had to go via the seed route for my own Queens, so I was at a disadvantage from the get-go. I have had to use smaller, less hardy specimens that are trying to be zone pushed. So really not ideal. I wish I could have brought in big 15 footer Queens to zone push, but I couldn’t. Availability of everything is just so limited. I have been trying to buy some Sabals this winter as well, but it is just impossible to get them here. I can’t find anything online.

Fox Palms will need a few years to get his Queen properly established and growing fatter. We are probably still 4-5 years away from seeing proper decent Queens in parts of southern England. Funny enough I remember people saying the exact same as what you just said about Phoenix Canariensis and Washingtonia around 5-6 years ago. Then out of nowhere they are flourishing and stacking on proper size. The palm scene is moving quick now that we have specimens in the ground, but we are obviously playing catch up. We have been behind the curve for too long. Like decades behind. You know that we are moving rapidly here and I wonder whether some of your comments are due to envy, being in the Netherlands. Just saying.

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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6 hours ago, SeanK said:

2PM Temps: Orlando 60º, Port St. Lucie 85º. From the Ventusky website.

Capture.JPG

Heeeey back to topic!

  

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Not trying to be bossy here but I think we should conclude this for now until further experiments have been made. Or just start a new thread about Queens in the UK or above 40° latitudes and then maybe more people come and have a say on this. Also everybody could post pictures and that... If they can grow in the Mediterranean up to 45° latitude and have gotten to big sizes in the summer cool (cold) Atlantic North of Spain then I really think they could also do well AT LEAST in good locations of Cornwall. As we've read palms are not readily available in the UK at the moment so we might not see any large scale experiments in the near future, but who knows. The world is changeing fast nowadays and maybe this will change as well. I for myself will try a Santa Catarina this year and I will post my story with it. I'm not expecting anything spectecular but I've been (re-)inspired in another thread a couple of weeks ago to finally try one properly. It's not an experiment in the UK or the coastal Netherlands but I think it will still give some clues or conclusions for you all as well. We all live at around the same latitude and we're all influenced mostly by the same weather patterns. Microclimates and USDA zones aside, just to see how well it grows during the warm seasons.

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9 hours ago, gurugu said:

If you return to Bilbao, don´t miss this Archontophoenix alexandrae. I hope it will set seeds in 5 years´ time.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.26716,-2.9277113,3a,19.3y,23.52h,95.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swis3QjXD81cQFjaD8jKiDQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Not far away there´s a nice Kentia with seeds almost all year round.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.3245985,-3.0111009,3a,20.6y,131.44h,96.55t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1so5vV249eSBUgy2rBqEo2Xg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3Do5vV249eSBUgy2rBqEo2Xg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D128.28503%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

In Santander there´s still this Kentia with seeds too.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4741525,-3.7879901,3a,34y,303.67h,102.23t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdaOASGObBXiePyPqIdn0jA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I have just found out that this one didn´t make it.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4594872,-3.8316518,3a,75y,358.83h,99.32t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sfftTdBsCrZB63M4bOxWfMw!2e0!5s20140601T000000!7i13312!8i6656

Today

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.459484,-3.8316427,3a,75y,358.83h,99.32t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s1PM-GNM1GYZ8NX9_rGUm1Q!2e0!5s20221201T000000!7i16384!8i8192

In La Coruña you can find the oldest and tallest Kentias in northern Spain here.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.3665114,-8.4044769,3a,75y,106.8h,96.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8VCGY86T2SbpKg22jHN0sw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

And in Vigo this one is still alive.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2340447,-8.7153632,3a,19.4y,209.05h,117.39t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1syL2_2umKNCGZqIwbxrwp4A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Wow! So many hidden gems there! I didn't even know that this kind of palms would grow in Northern Spain. Like in other European places there is so much palm potential!!! Especially the Kentias would give the green and cooler north a unique look. It really fits the landscape. It reminds me of some cooler/wetter parts of Latinoamerica. Whenever I'll be in back in the North of Spain I will visit some of those plants. If they're still there...
The one Kentia that didn't make it... - Do you think because of weather conditions?

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@Axel AmsterdamIt has a bit of potassium deficiency but over all it's looks alright. Will give it some fertilizer around the end of March. It's in the hottest part of the garden in the summer but that area isn't as warm as the area closer to the house and area under the eucalyptus canopy during the winter. May also be able to spot an ensete, chamedorea and lemon tree in the photo. Also just gave it some water because the soil was looking very dry. Had to move some of the cannas since they were so tall they blocked the sunlight from the lower frond. All together it has 6 fronds on it. As UK palms said, it's very hard to get large palms and hard to even buy small queen palms. I have a few seedlings growing on that hopefully one day will also be in ground. It would be nice if it was as easy as it is in the EU and USA to buy palms in the UK.

Screenshot_20230204-030846050 (1).jpg

Screenshot_20230204-031103198 (1).jpg

Edited by Foxpalms
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4 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

@Axel Amsterdam I don’t know what you are expecting mate. 15-20 foot Queens that have been store brought and ready to go strong like they get in Texas, Florida, California etc? That isn’t a possibility over here. Like you just can’t source them. I had to go via the seed route for my own Queens, so I was at a disadvantage from the get-go. I have had to use smaller, less hardy specimens that are trying to be zone pushed. So really not ideal. I wish I could have brought in big 15 footer Queens to zone push, but I couldn’t. Availability of everything is just so limited. I have been trying to buy some Sabals this winter as well, but it is just impossible to get them here. I can’t find anything online.

Fox Palms will need a few years to get his Queen properly established and growing fatter. We are probably still 4-5 years away from seeing proper decent Queens in parts of southern England. Funny enough I remember people saying the exact same as what you just said about Phoenix Canariensis and Washingtonia around 5-6 years ago. Then out of nowhere they are flourishing and stacking on proper size. The palm scene is moving quick now that we have specimens in the ground, but we are obviously playing catch up. We have been behind the curve for too long. Like decades behind. You know that we are moving rapidly here and I wonder whether some of your comments are due to envy, being in the Netherlands. Just saying.

UK Palms, it has nothing to do with being envy I don't know what makes you think that way. I have noticed your aggressive approach like last time when someone posted something about climate change you had to put him down.  I know what Queens need for optimal growth and that can't be found in England,nowhere.  Your Queen is never going to look like the one you can find in Florida it has different needs than a Washy or Canary it's the least cold hardy palm and again it isn't all about cold hardiness it's about the heat as well and you're so far away from having the same amount of heat and sunshine (over 2500 hrs a year ) as we get here in the southern states .  Nobody is saying you can't grow palms in England I think we have seen enough evidence that some palms grow in England ³.What's next are you going to tell the rest of us that you can successfully grow coconut palms or Royals?  Get out of here and by the way I lived 4 decades in Germany I have family in England , I've been there so don't tell me I don't know nothing . I'm up for a good discussion but you always take it to the next level because you think you know everything better than us or any nursery over here.  The internet exists since the 90s like almost 30 years enough time to do research and order seeds from all over the world to see what grows , what not or not so well.  What you don't understand is here in the southern states like Texas we get  10 to 15 days of colder weather sometimes colder than London but overall we're mostly in the 40s, 50s ,60s and even 70s the entire winter time. Enough for a freeze damaged palm to recover in a short time.  March we see temps already in the 80s , palms start to thrive fast, April 80s and 90s in June we're already having 90s and 100s sometimes . It doesn't get below 70 here until mid November and even than we're still in the 70s and 80s for quite a few weeks till January 1st. Besides occasional cold snaps it doesn't get cold in winter.  All we have to care about is our cold hardiness that's all. We have enough heat for every palm . I know what Amsterdam is trying to say I can only back up his facts . It's ok grow as much or any palms you want that's great , we all love palms and wish everyone good luck on growing palms but if I tell everyone I can succefully grow Royals in San Antonio people would be like what wait a minute.  That's all I'm saying.  A syagrus romanzoffiana is not a washingtonia robusta or a canary it will take a lot longer to grow and won't have a full crown of 16 fronds in most years.Even when certain parts of England share charistics of a warm climate for a few decades doesn't mean it can't get cold anymore. You're all the way up north closer to the north pole, a polar vortex can hit you guys as much as us and for you guys it will be a much worse palmaggedon than we had because you don't have the weather in winter or spring that would help a palm to bounce back .  Not an opinion just facts. You or someone from England was wondering why his Queen looks like crap . I gave an answer to that and here we go.  You need to work on your attitude man , seriously.  Sorry but I think that need to be said.  I like to hear different opinions and learn something but when the vast majority of people say the sky is blue and you say it's not that's where it gets weird.  Have a nice day 

 

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1 hour ago, MarcusH said:

UK Palms, it has nothing to do with being envy I don't know what makes you think that way. I have noticed your aggressive approach like last time when someone posted something about climate change you had to put him down.  I know what Queens need for optimal growth and that can't be found in England,nowhere.  Your Queen is never going to look like the one you can find in Florida it has different needs than a Washy or Canary it's the least cold hardy palm and again it isn't all about cold hardiness it's about the heat as well and you're so far away from having the same amount of heat and sunshine (over 2500 hrs a year ) as we get here in the southern states .  Nobody is saying you can't grow palms in England I think we have seen enough evidence that some palms grow in England ³.What's next are you going to tell the rest of us that you can successfully grow coconut palms or Royals?  Get out of here and by the way I lived 4 decades in Germany I have family in England , I've been there so don't tell me I don't know nothing . I'm up for a good discussion but you always take it to the next level because you think you know everything better than us or any nursery over here.  The internet exists since the 90s like almost 30 years enough time to do research and order seeds from all over the world to see what grows , what not or not so well.  What you don't understand is here in the southern states like Texas we get  10 to 15 days of colder weather sometimes colder than London but overall we're mostly in the 40s, 50s ,60s and even 70s the entire winter time. Enough for a freeze damaged palm to recover in a short time.  March we see temps already in the 80s , palms start to thrive fast, April 80s and 90s in June we're already having 90s and 100s sometimes . It doesn't get below 70 here until mid November and even than we're still in the 70s and 80s for quite a few weeks till January 1st. Besides occasional cold snaps it doesn't get cold in winter.  All we have to care about is our cold hardiness that's all. We have enough heat for every palm . I know what Amsterdam is trying to say I can only back up his facts . It's ok grow as much or any palms you want that's great , we all love palms and wish everyone good luck on growing palms but if I tell everyone I can succefully grow Royals in San Antonio people would be like what wait a minute.  That's all I'm saying.  A syagrus romanzoffiana is not a washingtonia robusta or a canary it will take a lot longer to grow and won't have a full crown of 16 fronds in most years.Even when certain parts of England share charistics of a warm climate for a few decades doesn't mean it can't get cold anymore. You're all the way up north closer to the north pole, a polar vortex can hit you guys as much as us and for you guys it will be a much worse palmaggedon than we had because you don't have the weather in winter or spring that would help a palm to bounce back .  Not an opinion just facts. You or someone from England was wondering why his Queen looks like crap . I gave an answer to that and here we go.  You need to work on your attitude man , seriously.  Sorry but I think that need to be said.  I like to hear different opinions and learn something but when the vast majority of people say the sky is blue and you say it's not that's where it gets weird.  Have a nice day 

 

Personally I get what you're trying to say but also get what UK palms is trying to say. Essentially I agree overall Texas has a better climate than the UK however all it takes is a few cold days during a bad winder in Texas to kill all the queen palms other than ones in the mildest areas. The only area in the UK in recent years that has had hot summers (average highs in the 80s) some years is London. What axel has said about the queen palms growing on the south coast growing slow due to cool summers is probably true, but that being said the summers 10-12 years ago when most of those experiments were done were cooler than they are now on the south coast. I also wouldn't call it a run of hot summers and cooler summers will return since it's only supposed to get hotter and hotter in the UK. Also a palmaggedon type event here still wouldn't be as bad as it would be in Texas apart from maybe Brownsville and South padre Island and even then Ventnor on the isle of Wight has a record low of -3c/26f compared to South padre islands of 23f and there's no information on the record low for central London, the record low claiming to be London's wasn't taken in London. We may be closer to the arctic but you are forgetting we are an island whilst from Canada to Texas it's fairly flat ground so the cold is just able to come right down during bad freeze events. Europe is also much milder for its latitude than the Americas and we also have the gulf stream.  What you said about palms growing slower here than subtropical climates is true but what you said about the freezes is untrue. It's also worth mentioning the weather is very different in the UK within a short distance so when talking about queen's being hardy I'm referring to the milder microclimates. In my opinion cool winters and warm summers but not hot summers like Texas or Florida are not detrimental to a queen palms health like you are suggesting otherwise they wouldn't grow in Brookings, the bay area of San Francisco or the south island of New Zealand would they? Things such as Bismarckia and Beccariophoenix however whilst I left them outside and they have done very well, those are types of things I would say 100% aren't hardy. No where near enough data and the only place, especially Bismarckia, even stands a chance growing in is central London. The south coast is just too cool during the summer. What UK palms said about lots of more ideal microclimates in the UK never trying queen palms is true but what axel said about some failing is definitely also useful information. It's just a shame those growers axel is talking about didn't provide much info.

Edited by Foxpalms
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19 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

Personally I get what you're trying to say but also get what UK palms is trying to say. Essentially I agree overall Texas has a better climate than the UK however all it takes is a few cold days during a bad winder in Texas to kill all the queen palms other than ones in the mildest areas. The only area in the UK in recent years that has had hot summers (average highs in the 80s) some years is London. What axel has said about the queen palms growing on the south coast growing slow due to cool summers is probably true, but that being said the summers 10-12 years ago when most of those experiments were done were cooler than they are now on the south coast. I also wouldn't call it a run of hot summers and cooler summers will return since it's only supposed to get hotter and hotter in the UK. Also a palmaggedon type event here still wouldn't be as bad as it would be in Texas apart from maybe Brownsville and South padre Island and even then Ventnor on the isle of Wight has a record low of -3c/26f compared to South padre islands of 23f and there's no information on the record low for central London, the record low claiming to be London's wasn't taken in London. We may be closer to the arctic but you are forgetting we are an island whilst from Canada to Texas it's fairly flat ground so the cold is just able to come right down during bad freeze events. Europe is also much milder for its latitude than the Americas and we also have the gulf stream.  

Aren't the climate comparisons getting a bit ridiculous? Imagine if you said West Palm Beach has a record low of -3C and so does an Isle in the UK, with even the slightest suggestion that the two climates are remotely comparable....Texas is nothing like the UK, so please no more comparisons and unfounded schadenfreude 😆. Thousands of royal and foxtail palms survived 23F in south Texas. 27-29F this past December hardly left a mark on most tropical things other than a blemish or two, it still looks like "summer" with ripening bananas and tropical blooms galore. Blame it on the the soil temperatures above 21C, the near tropical UV and daylength, the 21C+ days with 15-20C nights just before and after the "freeze", probably a combination of all of these factors and more. Brownsville has a January mean temp above 17C, just shy of the 18C tropical climate cutoff (nothing in common with a temperate climate 50+ degrees from the equator). Yes, an extremely below average Arctic blast is much more devasting in Texas because there are 100,000 times plus more palms in Texas than all of the UK.

2 hours ago, Foxpalms said:

@Axel AmsterdamIt has a bit of potassium deficiency but over all it's looks alright. Will give it some fertilizer around the end of March. It's in the hottest part of the garden in the summer but that area isn't as warm as the area closer to the house and area under the eucalyptus canopy during the winter. May also be able to spot an ensete, chamedorea and lemon tree in the photo. Also just gave it some water because the soil was looking very dry. Had to move some of the cannas since they were so tall they blocked the sunlight from the lower frond. All together it has 6 fronds on it. As UK palms said, it's very hard to get large palms and hard to even buy small queen palms. I have a few seedlings growing on that hopefully one day will also be in ground. It would be nice if it was as easy as it is in the EU and USA to buy palms in the UK.

Thanks for the pics. Were any of the current leaves present when the palm was planted? I would expect more leaf scars if the palm had replaced its canopy over the last 3 years. FWIW, small queen palms (strap leaf 1 gallon up to about 5 gallon size) here generally catch up to larger queens within a few years and then eclipse larger transplants. It seems like the larger sizes are somewhat stunted by their early life conditions. 

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Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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Thanks so much Foxpalms for the picture. There is a good possibility that your queen is going to grow more fronds per year in the coming years after settling in. You have put it in the best position in the UK to find out and I hope you can keep us updated on its progress. For me, now, it has the look of a 2 fronds a year palm, max. It seems to currently carry 4 fronds, 1 leaf opening and 1 spear in total so it cant be growing any faster because you don’t lose fronds to cold.

But the growth speed can increase in your central London garden against a south facing wall. I hope so. Would it also be possible to show the smaller queen, so we can compare the way they grow?

I know you are able to reply to this in a reasonable way, and there is really no need to nuance/defend other unreasonable remarks about envy, climate, availability of palms etc. because they are all besides the point; can we find proof that queens will grow more than 2 fronds a year in the UK?

Edited by Axel Amsterdam
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30 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Aren't the climate comparisons getting a bit ridiculous? Imagine if you said West Palm Beach has a record low of -3C and so does an Isle in the UK, with even the slightest suggestion that the two climates are remotely comparable....Texas is nothing like the UK, so please no more comparisons and unfounded schadenfreude 😆. Thousands of royal and foxtail palms survived 23F in south Texas. 27-29F this past December hardly left a mark on most tropical things other than a blemish or two, it still looks like "summer" with ripening bananas and tropical blooms galore. Blame it on the the soil temperatures above 21C, the near tropical UV and daylength, the 21C+ days with 15-20C nights just before and after the "freeze", probably a combination of all of these factors and more. Brownsville has a January mean temp above 17C, just shy of the 18C tropical climate cutoff (nothing in common with a temperate climate 50+ degrees from the equator). Yes, an extremely below average Arctic blast is much more devasting in Texas because there are 100,000 times plus more palms in Texas than all of the UK.

Thanks for the pics. Were any of the current leaves present when the palm was planted? I would expect more leaf scars if the palm had replaced its canopy over the last 3 years. FWIW, small queen palms (strap leaf 1 gallon up to about 5 gallon size) here generally catch up to larger queens within a few years and then eclipse larger transplants. It seems like the larger sizes are somewhat stunted by their early life conditions. 

I know Texas isn't at all similar to the UK but I was just saying it's unlikely cold is going to kill a queen palm here. Since that's what Marcus was suggesting could happen, I just pointed out even Texas can get colder than mild parts of the UK ever have gotten. None of the current leaves were present when the palm was planted it was significantly smaller. When planted the palm was kind of in the transition phase between going from strap leaf to pinate. In London the only months queens grow fast are July and August and moderately in June, the rest of the year they are slowish compared to the growth rate you would see in southern Texas. In May and September they still grow a good amount and October, April and March they grow a bit and November if it's fairly warm like last November.  They don't grow much during Dec, Jan and February but I can still see some slight growth of the new spear in the last few weeks.

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Just to make it more visually interesting, this was my queen(s) some years ago, after planting. It was great to see something so unusual every day in the garden. I managed to get it through 2 winters i believe, but it remained slow. 

0691D7F0-0746-492F-BF7C-D97DB901892E.jpeg

Edited by Axel Amsterdam
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1 hour ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Thanks so much Foxpalms for the picture. There is a good possibility that your queen is going to grow more fronds per year in the coming years after settling in. You have put it in the best position in the UK to find out and I hope you can keep us updated on its progress. For me, now, it has the look of a 2 fronds a year palm, max. It seems to currently carry 5 fronds and 1 spear in total so it cant be growing any faster because you don’t lose fronds to cold.

But the growth speed can change in your central London garden against a south facing wall. Would it also be possible to show the smaller queen, so we can compare the way they grow?

I know you are able to reply to this in a reasonable way, and there is really no need to nuance/defend other unreasonable remarks about envy, climate, availability of palms etc. because they are all besides the point; can we find proof that queens will grow more than 2 fronds a year in the UK?

I think it might have 2 spears coming out of it but it could be 1.It is against a south west facing wall. The growth rate I've seen is around 3-4 fronds a year on this palm. I can try and document how it grows this year if you want. Also what I notice with queen palms is that they seem to hold a lot more fronds the larger they get. Kew in the temperate house for example has queen palms that don't really look that much better and it never goes below 10c/50f and every day the temperature is in the 70s and 80s. Probably the 90s during the summer.  The ones in Kew gardens inside a glasshouse look similar to the other one you posted in London.

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12 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Just to make it more visually interesting, this was my queen(s) some years ago, after planting. It was great to see something so unusual every day in the garden. I managed to get it through 2 winters i believe, but it remained slow. 

0691D7F0-0746-492F-BF7C-D97DB901892E.jpeg

If only we were able to get a headstart and get ones that size. Hopefully there will be some in the UK that size in the near future other than Jamils ones that came already large from the south of France.

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18 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

I think it might have 2 spears coming out of it  but it could be 1.It is against a south west facing wall. The growth rate I've seen is around 3-4 fronds a year on this palm. I can try and document how it grows this year if you want. Also what I notice with queen palms is that they seem to hold a lot more fronds the larger they get. Kew in the temperate house for example has queen palms that don't really look that much better and it never goes below 10c/50f and every day the temperature is in the 70s and 80s. Probably the 90s during the summer.  The ones in Kew gardens inside a glasshouse look similar to the other one you posted in London.

Ok i am trying to follow and analyse the growth rate. Your large queen has been in the ground for more than 3 years and grew quickly vertically to its current size with 3 to 4 fronds per year. Do you cut off the older fronds then? Perhaps a picture from one or two years ago may help.

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5 hours ago, Hortulanus said:

Not trying to be bossy here but I think we should conclude this for now until further experiments have been made. Or just start a new thread about Queens in the UK or above 40° latitudes and then maybe more people come and have a say on this. Also everybody could post pictures and that... If they can grow in the Mediterranean up to 45° latitude and have gotten to big sizes in the summer cool (cold) Atlantic North of Spain then I really think they could also do well AT LEAST in good locations of Cornwall. As we've read palms are not readily available in the UK at the moment so we might not see any large scale experiments in the near future, but who knows. The world is changeing fast nowadays and maybe this will change as well. I for myself will try a Santa Catarina this year and I will post my story with it. I'm not expecting anything spectecular but I've been (re-)inspired in another thread a couple of weeks ago to finally try one properly. It's not an experiment in the UK or the coastal Netherlands but I think it will still give some clues or conclusions for you all as well. We all live at around the same latitude and we're all influenced mostly by the same weather patterns. Microclimates and USDA zones aside, just to see how well it grows during the warm seasons.

 

5 hours ago, Hortulanus said:

Wow! So many hidden gems there! I didn't even know that this kind of palms would grow in Northern Spain. Like in other European places there is so much palm potential!!! Especially the Kentias would give the green and cooler north a unique look. It really fits the landscape. It reminds me of some cooler/wetter parts of Latinoamerica. Whenever I'll be in back in the North of Spain I will visit some of those plants. If they're still there...
The one Kentia that didn't make it... - Do you think because of weather conditions?

Totally agree.

As I mentioned, those big ones growing here, were planted very tall: Those in Gijón were even planted  with 5/6 metres of clear trunk. Those in Bilbao with 3/4 metres of clear trunk and pretty fat. That´s why the started setting seeds so soon. I planted mine when they were over 2 metres tall. I bought them here, which was pretty unusual for that time to be on sale. Probably brought from Andalucía or Valencia. They were 24 years growing under very heavy shade, and almost without receiving sunlight because of 3 tall eucaliptus growing nearby.

Interesting that when I chopped the 3 eucaliptus, all the other palms: Camaerops, Livistona australis, Phoenix dactylifera, and Reclinata started to grow faster and even started to set seeds. My Washingtonia robusta and my Syagrus are already 6/ 7metres tall but haven´t set seeds yet, which is very unusual for a 25 year old palm. Now they have started to do so (setting seeds)

What I mean is that, apart for  climate here being temperate/oceanic, the two Syagrus weren´t in the best conditions to grow properly due to the shade they were growing under.

There are people in Bretagne (48ºN) growing Syagrus without any trouble. I have no doubt that if tall Syagrus were planted on the south coast of England or in London, as they were planted here, they would have a big chance to survive and grow happily.

The last Kentia I mention, unfortunately, was chopped down as all the others I posted here. I´ve seen dozens of Ficus elastica being chopped down because" they were already too big, and block my panoramic view from my cottage window". 😝

Both Ficus and Kentias are common birthday presents here, and if they are lucky to be in a country house, they are planted in the ground untill they become "too big"

As you mention: here, as in many places in Europe, there´s a big potential for (sub)tropical plants, but people keep on sticking to the most usual stuff.

I´ll try to post locations with tropical, subtropical plants all along the north coast of Spain if you fell like it.

Good luck with your Catarina syagrus.

Edited by gurugu
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Ok, i did some searching especially for the UK. This is a queen in Tremenheere, next to Penzance in 2009. The climate is very mild. Not saying it cant be done in London or in a better spot, just showing the picture because theoretical stories do not convince me.  

FF004207-BFE8-4CC2-9FBB-BD7964B4AFA9.jpeg

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And a beautiful pot grown queen in London, outside for 8 years. Picture from august, it grew 1 leaf, the second leaf was opening and  the new spear was 5 foot high. Ofcourse pots are different because of rootsize, but on the other hand the roots are also warmer during growing season. 

134EAE0F-E358-42CD-B3EF-72D9876F1AD9.jpeg

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7 hours ago, gurugu said:

 

Totally agree.

As I mentioned, those big ones growing here, were planted very tall: Those in Gijón were even planted  with 5/6 metres of clear trunk. Those in Bilbao with 3/4 metres of clear trunk and pretty fat. That´s why the started setting seeds so soon. I planted mine when they were over 2 metres tall. I bought them here, which was pretty unusual for that time to be on sale. Probably brought from Andalucía or Valencia. They were 24 years growing under very heavy shade, and almost without receiving sunlight because of 3 tall eucaliptus growing nearby.

Interesting that when I chopped the 3 eucaliptus, all the other palms: Camaerops, Livistona australis, Phoenix dactylifera, and Reclinata started to grow faster and even started to set seeds. My Washingtonia robusta and my Syagrus are already 6/ 7metres tall but haven´t set seeds yet, which is very unusual for a 25 year old palm. Now they have started to do so (setting seeds)

What I mean is that, apart for  climate here being temperate/oceanic, the two Syagrus weren´t in the best conditions to grow properly due to the shade they were growing under.

There are people in Bretagne (48ºN) growing Syagrus without any trouble. I have no doubt that if tall Syagrus were planted on the south coast of England or in London, as they were planted here, they would have a big chance to survive and grow happily.

The last Kentia I mention, unfortunately, was chopped down as all the others I posted here. I´ve seen dozens of Ficus elastica being chopped down because" they were already too big, and block my panoramic view from my cottage window". 😝

Both Ficus and Kentias are common birthday presents here, and if they are lucky to be in a country house, they are planted in the ground untill they become "too big"

As you mention: here, as in many places in Europe, there´s a big potential for (sub)tropical plants, but people keep on sticking to the most usual stuff.

I´ll try to post locations with tropical, subtropical plants all along the north coast of Spain if you fell like it.

Good luck with your Catarina syagrus.

Thanks! Yes there is also something surprising about some palms I've noticed with the drier and hotter summers we get nowadays. In the past you were worried about some desert palms or palms from low latitudes not getting enough heat or sun or just too much wet throughout the year. Now that I've planted many plants from such regions and the summers are very hot and dry especially compared to how they used to be 10 to 20 years ago I see that many of those actually slow down their growth in summer and seem to really love spring and autmn as its not as hot and there's more rain. And after we had a bald cold spell in Feb. 2021 we had an unsually cold and rainy spring and summer. I've never seen something like this here. But my Washingtonia filifera made its biggest leap in growth that year. I don't know if it was coincidence or it had to with the amounts of water it got. Despite not getting suffcient heat.

You should make a thread about those palms in your area. I think it would surprise many people and inspire some. I really hope we get more palm enthusiasm and experiments in Europe in the future. Maybe if there were nurseries selling more diverse species in more places, there would be more people who just buy something they didn't know but like.

I'll also start off with a trunking Santa Catarina. I will post on palmtalk about it.

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2 hours ago, Hortulanus said:

Thanks! Yes there is also something surprising about some palms I've noticed with the drier and hotter summers we get nowadays. In the past you were worried about some desert palms or palms from low latitudes not getting enough heat or sun or just too much wet throughout the year. Now that I've planted many plants from such regions and the summers are very hot and dry especially compared to how they used to be 10 to 20 years ago I see that many of those actually slow down their growth in summer and seem to really love spring and autmn as its not as hot and there's more rain. And after we had a bald cold spell in Feb. 2021 we had an unsually cold and rainy spring and summer. I've never seen something like this here. But my Washingtonia filifera made its biggest leap in growth that year. I don't know if it was coincidence or it had to with the amounts of water it got. Despite not getting suffcient heat.

You should make a thread about those palms in your area. I think it would surprise many people and inspire some. I really hope we get more palm enthusiasm and experiments in Europe in the future. Maybe if there were nurseries selling more diverse species in more places, there would be more people who just buy something they didn't know but like.

I'll also start off with a trunking Santa Catarina. I will post on palmtalk about it.

The same happens here. Many palms do like water more than previously thought. For example Bismarckia, and especially rainwater.

I´ve already posted some threads on palms growing here such as:

Tall washingtonias November 2022

Kentias at 43ºN March 2022

Fruiting archontophoenix farthest from the equator? February 2022

Chamaedoreas about to flower December 2022

Have a look at them, you´ll see some of these palmtrees.

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13 hours ago, Foxpalms said:

Personally I get what you're trying to say but also get what UK palms is trying to say. Essentially I agree overall Texas has a better climate than the UK however all it takes is a few cold days during a bad winder in Texas to kill all the queen palms other than ones in the mildest areas. The only area in the UK in recent years that has had hot summers (average highs in the 80s) some years is London. What axel has said about the queen palms growing on the south coast growing slow due to cool summers is probably true, but that being said the summers 10-12 years ago when most of those experiments were done were cooler than they are now on the south coast. I also wouldn't call it a run of hot summers and cooler summers will return since it's only supposed to get hotter and hotter in the UK. Also a palmaggedon type event here still wouldn't be as bad as it would be in Texas apart from maybe Brownsville and South padre Island and even then Ventnor on the isle of Wight has a record low of -3c/26f compared to South padre islands of 23f and there's no information on the record low for central London, the record low claiming to be London's wasn't taken in London. We may be closer to the arctic but you are forgetting we are an island whilst from Canada to Texas it's fairly flat ground so the cold is just able to come right down during bad freeze events. Europe is also much milder for its latitude than the Americas and we also have the gulf stream.  What you said about palms growing slower here than subtropical climates is true but what you said about the freezes is untrue. It's also worth mentioning the weather is very different in the UK within a short distance so when talking about queen's being hardy I'm referring to the milder microclimates. In my opinion cool winters and warm summers but not hot summers like Texas or Florida are not detrimental to a queen palms health like you are suggesting otherwise they wouldn't grow in Brookings, the bay area of San Francisco or the south island of New Zealand would they? Things such as Bismarckia and Beccariophoenix however whilst I left them outside and they have done very well, those are types of things I would say 100% aren't hardy. No where near enough data and the only place, especially Bismarckia, even stands a chance growing in is central London. The south coast is just too cool during the summer. What UK palms said about lots of more ideal microclimates in the UK never trying queen palms is true but what axel said about some failing is definitely also useful information. It's just a shame those growers axel is talking about didn't provide much info.

Here's my little Queen that I planted it lost all its fronds.  We had another artic winter in late December not as bad as Feb 21 but it surivived temperatures of 16,21,24,28 with very little protection , no heat tape or christmas lights just a thin bedsheet and a bucket over to protect it from high winds I can't remember how cold the windshield was but it was a lot colder.  Even we are outside of the growing season look how much it grew in a month.  Wait one or two more months those fronds will grow back in no time. I've planted this Queen in the end of May last year not really that much established either.  I don't know how old the Queens were before Palmaggedon but I would assume some of them were a few decades old and apparently a few survived. Because of our climate you can probably grow a 25ft Queen in 10 years in South Texas . I think people here can enjoy a Queen for a long time with only some winter protection, if necessary ,once in a while here. Even after Palmaggedon Texas has plenty of palms all over the place in SoCen , southeast and South Texas mostly Palmettos , Sabal mexicana,  Filiferas or hybrids , Pindos and the number is increasing on a daily basis.  A lot of palms are many decades old and do very well in our climate.  They all get the right amount of UV-A rays to grow fast and healthy.  

20230204_105826.jpg

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36 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

Here's my little Queen that I planted it lost all its fronds.  We had another artic winter in late December not as bad as Feb 21 but it surivived temperatures of 16,21,24,28 with very little protection , no heat tape or christmas lights just a thin bedsheet and a bucket over to protect it from high winds I can't remember how cold the windshield was but it was a lot colder.  Even we are outside of the growing season look how much it grew in a month.  Wait one or two more months those fronds will grow back in no time. I've planted this Queen in the end of May last year not really that much established either.  I don't know how old the Queens were before Palmaggedon but I would assume some of them were a few decades old and apparently a few survived. Because of our climate you can probably grow a 25ft Queen in 10 years in South Texas . I think people here can enjoy a Queen for a long time with only some winter protection, if necessary ,once in a while here. Even after Palmaggedon Texas has plenty of palms all over the place in SoCen , southeast and South Texas mostly Palmettos , Sabal mexicana,  Filiferas or hybrids , Pindos and the number is increasing on a daily basis.  A lot of palms are many decades old and do very well in our climate.  They all get the right amount of UV-A rays to grow fast and healthy.  

20230204_105826.jpg

I'm sure you're queen palm will grow a lot faster than mine you're UV levels are already a 5.8 compared to a 1.4 here and obviously the average annual temperature is much higher. Last year was the hottest on record and the average annual temperature was just over 14c in central London compared to 20.5c where you are. One positive is mine will never need to recover from cold damage though. During our freezes the wind speed is always 0mph under clear skies so cold wind isn't an issue. How many fronds per year do archontophoenix grow in Texas out of curiosity, since I found archontophoenix need no where near as much heat or sun to grow fast compared to queen palms? They continue growing throughout winter here.

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I can't give you any data to be honest I don't see people growing them here in San Antonio.  I don't think this is a palm that would do well here maybe South Padre Island but I wasn't there yet.

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12 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

I can't give you any data to be honest I don't see people growing them here in San Antonio.  I don't think this is a palm that would do well here maybe South Padre Island but I wasn't there yet.

Hopefully someone in the zone 9b+ parts of Texas knows the answer to that. This archontophoenix cunninghamiana at lamorran gardens I think was planted 3 coming up to 4 years ago and it has definitely more than doubled in size. My archontophoenix cunninghamiana is from the same place they bought theirs so I know roughly what size it was planted as since they are from the same batch grown from seed. This one is also growing in Cornwall which doesn't get as hot as here. Mine hasn't been in the ground as long as theirs so it's slightly smaller but with the warmer summers here it should catch up. Archontophoenix Alexandrae loves heat but I found cunninghamiana during July it didn't grow as fast as it did during the spring and late summer/early fall maybe because it prefers cooler coniditons.

Screenshot_20230204-195806347 (1).jpg

Screenshot_20230204-195736499 (1).jpg

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That’s gorgeous. I remember my 2 bangalows grew so happy and fast in one of the wettest summers we had here, just 20C/22C and daily rain. 

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1 hour ago, gurugu said:

The same happens here. Many palms do like water more than previously thought. For example Bismarckia, and especially rainwater.

I´ve already posted some threads on palms growing here such as:

Tall washingtonias November 2022

Kentias at 43ºN March 2022

Fruiting archontophoenix farthest from the equator? February 2022

Chamaedoreas about to flower December 2022

Have a look at them, you´ll see some of these palmtrees.

Great I will check them out!

  

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18 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

Hopefully someone in the zone 9b+ parts of Texas knows the answer to that. This archontophoenix cunninghamiana at lamorran gardens I think was planted 3 coming up to 4 years ago and it has definitely more than doubled in size. My archontophoenix cunninghamiana is from the same place they bought theirs so I know roughly what size it was planted as since they are from the same batch grown from seed. This one is also growing in Cornwall which doesn't get as hot as here. Mine hasn't been in the ground as long as theirs so it's slightly smaller but with the warmer summers here it should catch up. Archontophoenix Alexandrae loves heat but I found cunninghamiana during July it didn't grow as fast as it did during the spring and late summer/early fall maybe because it prefers cooler coniditons.

Here is cunninghamia in Galveston (Houston's beach) a day before 2021 freeze. It was 4-5 feet tall in 2011 iirc. July and August average low temp is 26-27C (sweltering hot, one of highest combo of avg summer low and dew points in all of USA). 

20210213_083617.thumb.jpg.c4d3e1a8a495f6a56bc8626330d826ea.jpg.43d9788e4414e5cdc32b5fa03ac3560f.jpg

 

Cunninghamia seems to eventually decline in far southen Texas, maybe it's too hot? Alexandrae and some of the other tropical types do better (yes survived the freeze too). All of them are very rare. Royals and foxtails dominate as far as crownshaft stuff goes

Edited by Xenon
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Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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RIP, died in cold a few weeks after the after pic haha. Currently have some strap leaf seedlings planted last fall that should go pinnate soon. 

On 1/16/2022 at 11:06 AM, Xenon said:

Monster growth rate on this is well worth the 30 bux even if it dies next winter (or next month? Next decade?) 

March

received_454574552840621.jpeg.41bd25785c1fae40a44c586b75955cb5.jpeg

 

A few days ago

received_1008179239765129.jpeg.81aaedd1c4524783568875a578274588.jpeg

 

 

Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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2 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Here is cunninghamia in Galveston (Houston's beach) a day before 2021 freeze. It was 4-5 feet tall in 2011 iirc. July and August average low temp is 26-27C (sweltering hot, one of highest avg summer low and dew points in all of USA). 

20210213_083617.thumb.jpg.c4d3e1a8a495f6a56bc8626330d826ea.jpg.43d9788e4414e5cdc32b5fa03ac3560f.jpg

 

Cunninghamia seems to eventually decline in far southen Texas, maybe it's too hot? Alexandrae and some of the other tropical types do better (yes survived the freeze too). All of them are very rare. Royals and foxtails dominate as far as crownshaft stuff goes

The decline is probably due to very hot summers. Even here last summer when July and augusts average high was in the 80s and we had a good amount of nights in the 70s the cunninghamiana wasn't as happy as it was during cooler months. However Alexandrae, Myolensis and Maxima grew faster during July and August and the cunninghamiana var Illawarra was even less happy than the regular archontophoenix cunninghamiana during the hotter months. 

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Just now, Foxpalms said:

The decline is probably due to very hot summers. Even here last summer when July and augusts average high was in the 80s and we had a good amount of nights in the 70s the cunninghamiana wasn't as happy as it was during cooler months. However Alexandrae, Myolensis and Maxima grew faster during July and August and the cunninghamiana var Illawarra was even less happy than the regular archontophoenix cunninghamiana during the hotter months. 

But like I said, the location where that cunninghamia is growing has extremely warm nights, average low is above 70F from May-Septermber and 80F in July and August. 

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Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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1 hour ago, MarcusH said:

Here's my little Queen that I planted it lost all its fronds.  We had another artic winter in late December not as bad as Feb 21 but it surivived temperatures of 16,21,24,28 with very little protection , no heat tape or christmas lights just a thin bedsheet and a bucket over to protect it from high winds I can't remember how cold the windshield was but it was a lot colder.  Even we are outside of the growing season look how much it grew in a month.  Wait one or two more months those fronds will grow back in no time. I've planted this Queen in the end of May last year not really that much established either.  I don't know how old the Queens were before Palmaggedon but I would assume some of them were a few decades old and apparently a few survived. Because of our climate you can probably grow a 25ft Queen in 10 years in South Texas .

 

Drive 4 hours south if you want to see millions of queen palms hiding between the billions of Washingtonia 😆

for something closer, lots of queen palms in Laredo too

Edited by Xenon
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Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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8 minutes ago, Xenon said:

But like I said, the location where that cunninghamia is growing has extremely warm nights, average low is above 70F from May-Septermber and 80F in July and August. 

Yes, they can take the heat no problem. Dry air and dry soil may slow them down more. 

An interesting climate for archontophoenix is Bogota Colombia where the whole year is like a rainy cloudy 20C summer in Amsterdam. They do very well there, i have never seen a queen in Bogota. 

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40 minutes ago, Xenon said:

But like I said, the location where that cunninghamia is growing has extremely warm nights, average low is above 70F from May-Septermber and 80F in July and August. 

Are south padre islands winter averages significantly warmer than Galveston's? Maybe cunninghamiana likes a cool period, the ones in California seem to do better than the ones in Florida and Texas even though it's drier and less humid.

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I am not huge fan of queen palms to be honest and the queen palms I see on the photo's with only a couple of leaves don't look pretty in view. 

Better to plant something that is better suited for your climate. For my climate Trachycarpus and Chamaerops look fine so I will stick
to that.  Also no stress during colder winters either. 

I almost sense that it has become a match to plant palms that can barely survive to show how mild your climate is. I think
if you like gardening you want to have a nice looking garden with healthy plants not plants which have to cling on to life in order
to proof something. 

 

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36 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Yes, they can take the heat no problem. Dry air and dry soil may slow them down more. 

An interesting climate for archontophoenix is Bogota Colombia where the whole year is like a rainy cloudy 20C summer in Amsterdam. They do very well there, i have never seen a queen in Bogota. 

I didn't know they were growing there. But I think that they can get some very cold temperatures every once in a while. I also would compare their climate even more with a autmn type of weather from what I've seen. Medellin has an amazing climate though!

  

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2 minutes ago, Marco67 said:

I am not huge fan of queen palms to be honest and the queen palms I see on the photo's with only a couple of leaves don't look pretty in view. 

Better to plant something that is better suited for your climate. For my climate Trachycarpus and Chamaerops look fine so I will stick
to that.  Also no stress during colder winters either. 

I almost sense that it has become a match to plant palms that can barely survive to show how mild your climate is. I think
if you like gardening you want to have a nice looking garden with healthy plants not plants which have to cling on to life in order
to proof something. 

 

I don't how much you've read of the past couple of sites in this thread but your mentality (partially) is exactly what I've critisised about European palm growing culture. I say partially because I'm with you when it comes to planting stuff that is barely surviving and also showing off. I'm not sure about everbody's intentions but I think experimenting is definitely not wrong. I've tried several species (also other than palms) that when I would have listened to others I wouldn't have tried. And I had my succsesses several times. As the climate is also changeing in a really rapid pace now in Europe it's also a different game when it comes to (re-)experimenting. Trachys and Chamaerops are fine but as I've discussed with @guruguthere is so much potential in Europe that hasn't been used. Not even Butias are widely planted in areas where they have long term potential. And if people plant Trachys they all stick to fortunei while there is so much variety available here Americans wish to have access to...

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13 minutes ago, Hortulanus said:

I didn't know they were growing there. But I think that they can get some very cold temperatures every once in a while. I also would compare their climate even more with a autmn type of weather from what I've seen. Medellin has an amazing climate though!

Yes correct, its more eternal autumn. I dont think they ever see frost though, but i am not  completely sure.

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