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Cold hardy palms and cycads for SC Oklahoma 7b


Jerrrod

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3 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

Two ways. google NOWDATA ( Followed by Your National Weather Service office) , 

https://www.weather.gov/wrh/climate?wfo=RAH

Or go directly to your NWS homepage. https://www.weather.gov/rah/ then go to Climate and Past Weather, which is located above the Forecast map box with counties and warning and watches.

You can pick a location under the option, or you can "View Map" if you want see location near you.

To get several years of data, Click the City, Then click Monthly summarized data, The "year Range" some cities have 100 years of data, some cities stopped reporting, and some are newer stations with only the most recent year. "Variable" is going to be Min Temperature, and then "Summary" Daily Minimum.

Thanks for this, it's what I've been looking for and told by locals that I have to watch out for the really cold stuff every 20 years or so. Sort of like the creeper.

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Plant Trachycarpus fortunei, wagnerianusSabal minor, birmingham, louisiana and Rhaphidophyllum hystrix as your main palms and plant everything else mentioned except maybe filifera as a possible die palm unless you protect.

Edited by Allen
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YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@tntropics - 60+ In-ground 7A palms - (Sabal) minor(7 large + 27 seedling size, 3 dwarf),  brazoria(1) , birmingham(4), etonia (1) louisiana(5), palmetto (1), riverside (1),  (Trachycarpus) fortunei(7), wagnerianus(1),  Rhapidophyllum hystrix(7),  15' Mule-Butia x Syagrus(1),  Blue Butia capitata(1) +Tons of tropical plants.  Recent Yearly Lows -1F, 12F, 11F, 18F, 16F, 3F, 3F, 6F, 3F, 1F, 16F, 17F, 6F, 8F

 

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I guess being in a borderline 8a/b I've never needed to consider just how hardy Trachycarpus are.  I've been reviewing the cold hardiness master data spreadsheet from Kinzyjr, it looks like you start taking casualties in the low teens for immature and single digits for mature specimens, but there are lots of cases of them surviving well into the low single digits.  Even 0f and below.  

I wonder how the trunking Sabal hybrids compare - I think mexicana and brazoriensis (texana/texensis?) are the two most hardy, of the trunking sabals?  Someone correct me please? 

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58 minutes ago, Jesse PNW said:

I guess being in a borderline 8a/b I've never needed to consider just how hardy Trachycarpus are.  I've been reviewing the cold hardiness master data spreadsheet from Kinzyjr, it looks like you start taking casualties in the low teens for immature and single digits for mature specimens, but there are lots of cases of them surviving well into the low single digits.  Even 0f and below.  

I wonder how the trunking Sabal hybrids compare - I think mexicana and brazoriensis (texana/texensis?) are the two most hardy, of the trunking sabals?  Someone correct me please? 

Pretty much spot on.  The sabal hybrids I have start taking cold damage spots on fronds at about the same temp that Trachycarpus starts to at 12F.  They will both take substantial frond damage as temps go into the 5-10F range and defoliate completely somewhere under sustained 5-8F.  I have a youtube video on temps Trachycarpus can take and there is a video on the Sabals after 12F this past year.   I should have put Sabal brazoriensis on my list above.  

Edited by Allen
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YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@tntropics - 60+ In-ground 7A palms - (Sabal) minor(7 large + 27 seedling size, 3 dwarf),  brazoria(1) , birmingham(4), etonia (1) louisiana(5), palmetto (1), riverside (1),  (Trachycarpus) fortunei(7), wagnerianus(1),  Rhapidophyllum hystrix(7),  15' Mule-Butia x Syagrus(1),  Blue Butia capitata(1) +Tons of tropical plants.  Recent Yearly Lows -1F, 12F, 11F, 18F, 16F, 3F, 3F, 6F, 3F, 1F, 16F, 17F, 6F, 8F

 

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9 hours ago, Jesse PNW said:

I guess being in a borderline 8a/b I've never needed to consider just how hardy Trachycarpus are.  I've been reviewing the cold hardiness master data spreadsheet from Kinzyjr, it looks like you start taking casualties in the low teens for immature and single digits for mature specimens, but there are lots of cases of them surviving well into the low single digits.  Even 0f and below.  

I wonder how the trunking Sabal hybrids compare - I think mexicana and brazoriensis (texana/texensis?) are the two most hardy, of the trunking sabals?  Someone correct me please? 

Just my data from 2021  ( low of 4F, several consecutive days at or below 32F,  plus 6 inches of snow, and about an inch of ice, ( never cold enough in 22 years to damage any sabals before.)

Sabal Minors and Sabal Louisiana 2-4F: No Damage, Seeds Available now.

Sabal Birmingham 4F ( slow and small, too much shade) No Damage

Sabal Brazoriensis at 2F: Minor Damage (10-15% leaf burn), Limited Seeds Available.

Sabal Palmetto 4F - the rest ( 20FT of Trunk) (20-25% Leaf Burn) - Various understory self seeded palms had pitted leaves. Seeds available in a month.

Sabal Palmetto XL Hybrid? 1980s Houston Survivor ( 25Ft of Trunk, 1/3 larger crown than the Palmetto above) ( 30% leaf burn) Various understory self seeded palms had pitted leaves. Seeds available in a month.

Sabal Mexicana XL Fast ( 15FT of trunk, 1/3 larger crown than the Mexicana below ) ( 80% leaf burn, petioles stayed green). Seeds available now.

Sabal Mexicana ( 10FT of trunk) ( 90% leaf burn). Seeds available now.

Sabal Bermudana (Smaller, not formed a trunk, grown in shade): ( 100% leaf burn), has now regrown full set of leaves.

Sabal Uresana (XL Coastal Blue Green Form): Largest initially had 85% burn, but had to be trunk cut. Two much small Sabal Uresana coastal form, 1 lived, and 1 died a year later ( only Sabal that died)

3 Sabals Unknown: Burned  70% and 90%, fully recovered, not set seed yet. 

NOT TESTED YET, But will next event.

Sabal Lisa, Sabal Miami, Sabal Etonia, Sabal Maritima, Sabal Causarium, Sabal Riverside, Sabal DeFuniak Springs. Will plant a couple Birminghams in full sun and with more water to speed them up. Only Sabals that grow in shade are slow, and rarely set seed except, minor Louisiana, Brazoria will set some seeds.

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Current Texas Gardening Zone 9a, Mean (1999-2024): 22F Low/104F High. Yearly Precipitation 39.17 inches.

Extremes: Low Min 4F 2021, 13.8F 2024. High Max 112F 2011/2023, Precipitation Max 58 inches 2015, Lowest 19 Inches 2011.

Weather Station: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KTXCOLLE465

Ryan (Paleoclimatologist Since 4 billion Years ago, Meteorologist/Earth Scientist/Physicist Since 1995, Savy Horticulturist Since Birth.)

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On 10/13/2022 at 7:32 PM, Jerrrod said:

Ok, now I'm hooked Pole, do they take long to germinate with heat?

Yeah, it's one of the slowest growers in the palm world

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Problem in OKC isn’t just the temp, it’s the extreme north winds and the ice. Whatever you plant there it will look beat after winter if not protected somewhat 

Edited by DreaminAboutPalms
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On 10/13/2022 at 7:31 PM, Jesse PNW said:

I guess being in a borderline 8a/b I've never needed to consider just how hardy Trachycarpus are.  I've been reviewing the cold hardiness master data spreadsheet from Kinzyjr, it looks like you start taking casualties in the low teens for immature and single digits for mature specimens, but there are lots of cases of them surviving well into the low single digits.  Even 0f and below.  

I wonder how the trunking Sabal hybrids compare - I think mexicana and brazoriensis (texana/texensis?) are the two most hardy, of the trunking sabals?  Someone correct me please? 

In the winter of 2018, we had a low of 4f here in Raleigh. I didn't see any trachies, sabal birminghams or braziorensis die. I think some of the brazies defoliated and bounced back when temps warmed up. But I didn't see any damage on the trachies or birminghams. 

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54 minutes ago, knikfar said:

In the winter of 2018, we had a low of 4f here in Raleigh. I didn't see any trachies, sabal birminghams or braziorensis die. I think some of the brazies defoliated and bounced back when temps warmed up. But I didn't see any damage on the trachies or birminghams. 

Huh? Maybe didn't die but took a load of damage

 

YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@tntropics - 60+ In-ground 7A palms - (Sabal) minor(7 large + 27 seedling size, 3 dwarf),  brazoria(1) , birmingham(4), etonia (1) louisiana(5), palmetto (1), riverside (1),  (Trachycarpus) fortunei(7), wagnerianus(1),  Rhapidophyllum hystrix(7),  15' Mule-Butia x Syagrus(1),  Blue Butia capitata(1) +Tons of tropical plants.  Recent Yearly Lows -1F, 12F, 11F, 18F, 16F, 3F, 3F, 6F, 3F, 1F, 16F, 17F, 6F, 8F

 

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2 hours ago, Allen said:

Huh? Maybe didn't die but took a load of damage

 

That's not Raleigh. That's just outside of New Bern and they got hit harder by that storm than we did. If you ask Gary Hollar, I think he'll tell you they dropped to 0 degrees or lower. Things are usually more mild the closer you get to the coast. But that year, they weren't. 

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Last two nights got me by surprise, good thing my seeds hadn't germinated yet. I think I'll try the aquarium or heat lamp again. Do you guys think the seeds are ok, one of them had a little root growing but no leaves. They're in gallon pots. Also, I plan to order some seedlings, should I get them now and keep them inside or early spring and just put them outside? They're windmills and pindos. Last question, for now😀, will plastic trash cans protect them from the cold until they get too big?

Edited by Jerrrod
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On 10/19/2022 at 4:07 PM, Jerrrod said:

Last two nights got me by surprise, good thing my seeds hadn't germinated yet. I think I'll try the aquarium or heat lamp again. Do you guys think the seeds are ok, one of them had a little root growing but no leaves. They're in gallon pots. Also, I plan to order some seedlings, should I get them now and keep them inside or early spring and just put them outside? They're windmills and pindos. Last question, for now😀, will plastic trash cans protect them from the cold until they get too big?

I am all the way in Okc metro and we have a few sabal mexicana and windmills planted. With the sabal mexicana we only protect from jan-march; but have backed off the extreme protection that we did during vortex. We also have a site and are a small licensed tropical/palm nursery. www.okpalms.com

Youtube - Okpalms 

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On 10/9/2022 at 6:41 PM, Jerrrod said:

Thanks for the help guys, after talking to a few people here, I'm lead to believe that on average it only shows every 15-20 years and it starts to get in the 80's in March. It's just now getting into the high 70's. I really do like the Emerald Isle and I just order 10 Filifera, they said they're not hybrids. I prefer them over the Robusta and as for as the Sabals, don't they grow really slow? Would a Pindo or Armata work? As for succulents and yuccas go, I really like the blue agave and the Yucca Rostrata and Filifera.

How cold was this past winter? My place saw 5°, coldest in almost 30 years. No freezing precip but even T.fortunei is 50% burnt. Chamaerhops and Butias 100% toast. Potted Sabal minors may not recover either.

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This past winter wasn't bad at all, I'm from KC originally. I think the coldest was a few hours in the 20's.

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17 hours ago, Jerrrod said:

This past winter wasn't bad at all, I'm from KC originally. I think the coldest was a few hours in the 20's.

I doubt it, It got 19 in houston

North OKC got -11 windchill

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Lucas

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True but our coldest was in December and even with lows of 7-8 we had highs in the 40s-high 50s. It didn't really stay cold that long and OKC is quite a bit colder than we are. Can't say about Houston, never been there except once and their weather is very different be so close to the ocean.

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True but our coldest was in December and even with lows of 7-8 we had highs in the 40s-high 50s. It didn't really stay cold that long and OKC is quite a bit colder than we are. Can't say about Houston, never been there except once and their weather is very different be so close to the ocean. Also according to our local extension office wind chill doesn't affect plants.

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On 3/27/2023 at 9:52 AM, Jerrrod said:

@WattsZ I just went to your website and will definitely be getting some. Do you have the blue Mediterranean palms?

Thanks for checking us out! I do not currently have the blue mediterranean palms 

Youtube - Okpalms 

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@Little Tex You do have more knowledge about growing palms in cold areas, I moved from 10b to 8b to 7b. How old should the palms be before I put them in the ground? I was thinking asap for better growth.

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34 minutes ago, Jerrrod said:

@Little Tex You do have more knowledge about growing palms in cold areas, I moved from 10b to 8b to 7b. How old should the palms be before I put them in the ground? I was thinking asap for better growth.

It depends, Put them in spring, If its a good size, then yeah go ahead, just remember to set up the protection, as long its not a little strap leaf it should be fine

Lucas

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Thanks Tex, what exactly is a strap leaf, I keep hearing the term. I see some online that are about a six months old all the way to three years old. Needless to say I get more for the same price if I get the younger ones.

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Just now, Jerrrod said:

Thanks Tex, what exactly is a strap leaf, I keep hearing the term. I see some online that are about a six months old all the way to three years old. Needless to say I get more for the same price if I get the younger ones.

strap leaf means the leaf isnt palmate/pinnate, so the leaf is just an oval shaped leaf with parallel venation

image.jpeg.3d991f7722fae533340fbdadc06f5d20.jpeg

not my photo but you get the idea

Lucas

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Oh ok, thanks. That's how my Bismarkias were, just longer.

Edited by Jerrrod
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10 minutes ago, Jerrrod said:

Oh ok, thanks. That's how my Bismarkias were, just longer.

yeah, I wouldnt recommend them again they're really 9a/9b palms

Lucas

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On 3/28/2023 at 9:07 PM, Jerrrod said:

Also according to our local extension office wind chill doesn't affect plants.

Technically probably so.  Severe wind chill conditions can still kill plants - Not through cold but through desiccation.  Cold air cannot contain nearly as much moisture as warm air.  So windy cold dry air can easily kill a plant by sucking out all the moisture.   Maybe not so much an issue in your area as in the north though.

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1 hour ago, Jerrrod said:

Wouldn't dessication spray prevent this?

It should.  Guys to our west recommend using it on agaves in their landscapes for the first couple winters after planting.

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