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Cold hardy palms and cycads for SC Oklahoma 7b


Jerrrod

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Hi everyone, I'm new here and need help. I just moved here from southern California and really do miss my palms.😀 I'm about 75 miles north of Dallas (7b), have clay soil and keep getting conflicting information about palms, like cold hardiness, growth rate & max size.  I did try Bismarckia and date palms (Canary and regular), last year.  I had the seeds growing good in a baggie floating in my aquarium. By the time winter set in they ~2' and had about 3 leaves. I heard that they were cold hardy and planted all of them (10). Never heard of a polar vortex, but you know what happened. I want to try again but don't want to lose them again. I don't mind protecting them, as much as I can without going crazy. Also I want some that I can see in my lifetime, not going to take 40 or 50 years to grow.  Lastly, I don't know if this is the right forum, but I also like succulents and cycads. If anyone has any other suggestions. Thanks guys.

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For 7b a palm that can survive without protection is a trachycarpus (windmill palm). Although, we are talking about a mature one. You'll might need to protect it for the first 2-3 years until roots are properly settled in the soil.

There are some other options too although trachycarpus seems to be the safest one for a start in such climate. Sabal palmettos and needle palms might be fine too, but without hot and long summers they tend to be slow-growers.

If you are okay with protecting your palms during winters then the options grow. I have a Mediterranean fan palm in 6b, but I have a light bulb and a box to protect it during coldest days during winters.

Bismarckias and date palms will not be fine in 7b and protecting them would require an experience. 

Edited by ThePole
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@Jerrrod

Cold hardy is a relative term.  Phoenix canariensis and Bismarckia nobilis are going to eventually going to require an enclosure in that area.  @ThePolemade some great suggestions.  My suggestion is the various forms of Sabal minor:

  • Sabal minor 'McCurtain'.  This is Oklahoma's native palm.  As the variety name suggests, it hails from McCurtain county.  This is a bush palm, roughly 3-5 feet in height and diameter.
  • Sabal minor 'Arkansas': This variety is from southern Arkansas.  They are a good bit larger at maturity (~8ft) than the McCurtain variety.
  • Sabal minor 'Cherokee': This is the only known palm native to an official USDA zone 7b in Cherokee county Alabama near Weiss Lake.  These are moderately sized from what I've seen.
  • Sabal minor 'Emerald Isle': A very robust form with an almost blueish color.  Probably closer to 8ft at maturity.  @PalmatierMeg used to sell them.  I have a few of her seedlings in my garden.
  • Sabal minor 'Louisiana': These eventually get a short trunk and may turn out to be a hybrid.  Trunk will probably be in the neighborhood of 4-8 feet and look similar to a short Sabal palmetto.
  • Sabal minor 'Blountstown': A dwarf Dwarf palmetto.  I think these top out around 2ft x 2ft.  Very easy to protect for those Polar Vortex events.  Originally from Blountstown, FL.

If you want a tree to try and have a sheltered dry spot, give Washingtonia filifera a go.  There were a few that survived Palmageddon in Dallas.  You're from California where they are native, so might as well bring a little piece of it with you.  I have a few from Moapa Valley, NV in my yard.  @Collectorpalms was selling some seeds from his survivors.  You might want to hit him up.

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Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone (2012): 9b | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (1985, 1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a | 30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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You can certainly try a few arborescent palms but just keep in mind they won’t make it without help every few years. Sabal Palmetto, Sabal Mexicana, Trachycarpus Fortunei and Washington Filifera. They are hardy briefly to 5F once large and established. Planting Near buildings on the south side would be a must. 
Their longer term northern limit is really Denton and Collin County metro in Texas.

Not sure what cycads, but none would live without help, and what succulents you had in mind?

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Current Texas Gardening Zone 9a, Mean (1999-2024): 22F Low/104F High. Yearly Precipitation 39.17 inches.

Extremes: Low Min 4F 2021, 13.8F 2024. High Max 112F 2011/2023, Precipitation Max 58 inches 2015, Lowest 19 Inches 2011.

Weather Station: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KTXCOLLE465

Ryan (Paleoclimatologist Since 4 billion Years ago, Meteorologist/Earth Scientist/Physicist Since 1995, Savy Horticulturist Since Birth.)

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I must echo kinzyjr; cold-hardy is a relative term. Most California growers don't have a realistic concept.

In CA, if something survives 28ºF, it's "cold-hardy" - like King Palms and Majesties. For the rest of the continental US, we consider minimum temperatures, USDA zone ratings, winter precipitation, frost, etc. 

If you have some afternoon shade, you can plant a it more, like Rhapidophyllum and Sabal minor.  Trachycarpus fortunei is the most cold-hardy trunking palm. It is rated z8 as it is reliable to 10º without worry. It will actually take to 5º, but zone ratings are based on statistics and so a reliable source will say z8a. 

My suggestion is you look at the entire area and draw out a rough plan. Consider broad-leafed evergreen (BLEs), winter canopy trees and palms. I am in Atlanta on hard red clay. The best digging is during the winter. Plan your project, dig while it's easy, then plant around April 1st.

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You can grow Sabal minor (this is Oklahoma’s only native palm as well) and Rhapidophyllum hystrix without protection. I would have said Trachycarpus fortunei would be safe as well but with the freeze that happened there two winters ago I’d say it may need occasional protection at times, but it is an arborescent palm. If you can get your hands on some you could try a Nannorrhops ritchiana, which is said to be quite hardy, and with Oklahoma being somewhat dry I’m sure it would like it there. There is also the Sabal palmetto and Sabal mexicana that you can try, both of which are arborescent palms. There is also Serenoa repens that I think would be a good one to try as well for southern Oklahoma. As for succulents, I would start off with hardy ones like Agave parryi first, that won’t die in a bad winter. There are also some native cacti in Oklahoma, I’m not to familiar with those ones, but we have a native cacti here in Virginia called Opuntia humifusa that is very hardy and I think it is native to Oklahoma as well. I’m pretty sure you have a few other Opuntia species there as well that you could look into. Oklahoma seems like a pretty interesting place for plants, it seems to get a good bit of heat, sometimes I look at it on the temperature map on my weather app and it can be quite warm even in the middle of the winter during the day so that probably helps. Keep us updated on what you get! 

Edited by PalmTreeDude
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PalmTreeDude

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Trunking palms your palms of choice will be Sabal Palmetto, Sabal Mexicana, Trachycarpus Fortunei, and Washingtonia Filifera. A few of these survived the polar vortex in Dallas in Feb 21. Most years these palms will be fine. May burn in winter but should live. I feel strongly that with protection when young, you can coax a lot of years out of Filifera and get it to a mid sized height in your area…maybe 25-30 feet. All of these palms will likely die in a 2021 type freeze, but the good news is that a freeze that severe is very infrequent (years apart). 
 

One other thing, do not plant Washingtonia Robusta under any circumstances. Be sure of your source for Filifera and that it’s not a hybrid with Robusta. Washingtonia Robusta will likely be killed most winters there unless you’re willing to do elaborate protection methods

Edited by NBTX11
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Thanks for the help guys, after talking to a few people here, I'm lead to believe that on average it only shows every 15-20 years and it starts to get in the 80's in March. It's just now getting into the high 70's. I really do like the Emerald Isle and I just order 10 Filifera, they said they're not hybrids. I prefer them over the Robusta and as for as the Sabals, don't they grow really slow? Would a Pindo or Armata work? As for succulents and yuccas go, I really like the blue agave and the Yucca Rostrata and Filifera.

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Another question just popped in my head, if I plant them with other plants close by, can that protect them from the cold?

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I find that Butia doesn't like any frozen precipitation in the bud. Brahea armata would be nice, but it's slow.

Too many plants competing for summer water is more a hindrance than help.

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Sabal "Birmingham " should be golden, although it's gonna be slow.  You should reach out to Alligator Alley in OKC. They have a lot of stuff for Oklahoma, probably even some seedling/ potted specimens.  However I haven't heard much from people on the forums about them recently.  As for cycads try some sagos,they are pretty tough,cheap, and very available 👍 I've heard Cycas panzhuiensis is even tougher, just harder to source and more expensive.  I'm not sure either is going to be surefire in your location but give it a shot 

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20 hours ago, Jerrrod said:

I'm about 75 miles north of Dallas (7b

Hope you like strong thunderstorms! I spent 2 years about 60 miles NE of Dallas on the TX side of the OK border. It hit 3 both winters and that was the first and last time I saw ice on a body of water. 

Sabal minor will grow in the ground no protection no water no problem. No canopy required. A sizable potted needle palm set seeds for me. That one had the most the most lush green leaves of any my plants! 

Look, any palms that will make it long term there are going to be tremendously slow. My suggestion? Plant them, leave them be, but also include some faster/prettier palms which you can enjoy short term.

Now I don’t know what the polar vortex did, but you may be surprised to hear of cycas revoluta growing up there in more than a few yards. Were they always under trees? I can’t recall. But they’re present. 

These non-palms worked for me:

* Paulownia is a tree that grows incredibly fast and has monster sized leaves.

* Yucca recurvifolia 
* Yucca ..filamentosa? That little yellow & green striped one which turns kinda pink in freezing weather.

* Sweet gum - You get to have actual fall color! I once came home to find my neighbors in my yard taking photos of their grandkids under my very colorful sweet gum tree. They’re gorgeous. 

The OKC zoo landscaping might be a good place to scout for plants that will work and if you’re a reader you may find sections of the book Palms Won’t Grow Here and Other Myths helpful.

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 Thanks, I did look at Alligator Alley and can't wait to get up there. In a couple of weeks I'm getting some bamboo from Frank Buck's in Gainesville. Should I start my Filiferia in the ground now, put them in pots or germinate them in my aquarium like last time, it's around 82 degrees constantly. @555 @5am I do have black tupelo seeds that I plan on planting and I just ordered some Paulownia seeds also.

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4 hours ago, Jerrrod said:

 Thanks, I did look at Alligator Alley and can't wait to get up there. In a couple of weeks I'm getting some bamboo from Frank Buck's in Gainesville. Should I start my Filiferia in the ground now, put them in pots or germinate them in my aquarium like last time, it's around 82 degrees constantly. @555 @5am I do have black tupelo seeds that I plan on planting and I just ordered some Paulownia seeds also.

Black Tupelo or black gum as some folks call it has fantastic red fall color. It rivals sugar maple for those that are familiar north east fall colors. It’s deep red around here. I have several large trees on my property. They’re also one of the first trees to change. Sweet gum isn’t the same tree, they turn yellow ,  but beware they drop hundreds of spikey seed pods that hurt the feet and are a mess to clean up. 
 

beware the Paulownia tree is considered invasive in many places. 

Edited by RJ
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7 hours ago, Jerrrod said:

Are there any other blue palms that I can try?

Chamaerops humilis ‘cerifera’ is listed as a 7b by one larger online palm nursery and as @PalmTreeDude said Nannorhops richiana is worth a try. I don’t have experience with them but I think they’ll want a location that stays on the dry side all winter.
 

7 hours ago, Jerrrod said:

Should I start my Filiferia in the ground now

Filifera germinate easily but if they sprout now will their tiny roots withstand a few hard freezes? I don’t know so I’d opt for a warm window or under a light through the cold stuff. 

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7 hours ago, Jerrrod said:

Are there any other blue palms that I can try?

Chamareops humilis cerifera. It is the blue variation of the Mediterranean fan palm. It might need protection during some winters, but probably not every year.

I would also think about blue variations of yucca rostrata. Of course, they are not palms, but can be really stunning. They are very cold hardy but might need protection against heavy rains, as they not like water too much.

Edited by ThePole
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I'm in Raleigh NC, also zone 7b. I'm growing the following with or without protection: 

Trachycarpus - multiple varities - no protection

Butia Odorata - I cover with frost cloth when frozen precipitation is forecast and also wrap with incandescent lights when temps are forecast to fall below 15f. We haven't had temps that low since 2018 but we've had a nice long warm stretch of winters. 

Washingtonia Filibusta - I'll cover with frost cloth this winter since its their first winter in the ground. After that, I might wrap with Christmas lights but we'll see. 

Washingtonia Filifera - first year in the ground. I'll protect it by covering it with a bucket when frozen precipitation is forecast but only this year. Next year, no protection. 

Sabal Palmetto - no protection

Sabal Birmingham - no protection

Sabal Braziorensis - no protection

Sabal Minor - no protection

All of these sabal varieties came through our low temp of 4f in 2018 with little or no damage.

European Fan Palm - first year in the ground was last year. I didn't protect it at all. We had three frozen precipitation events last January. A dusting of snow, then 3" of snow and then an ice storm. One event per week for three weeks straight. One of the smaller shoots had spear pull but quickly pushed out a new spear in the spring. The other shoots showed no damage at all. 

Also growing the following cycads

Cycas Revoluta - I covered during their first winter in the ground but haven't done so since. They do well when the fronds are kept dry. But their fronds usually burn when there is snow or ice. But I just clip those off in the spring and they push out a fresh batch of fronds. 

Cycas Taitungensis - this variety is hardier than Revoluta and should be a solid performer for you. It's a larger variety and kind of ends up looking like a small canariensis to me. Its fronds will burn during some winters but it will always push out a new flush when the weather warms up.  

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Plant Delights Nursery ( PDN ) might  have some hardy Agaves that might do well   (   https://www.plantdelights.com  )   . They will have a lot of other  interesting plants as well . Sabal Birminghams are hardier than Palmettos too . 

I protect my Washy (  trunk only ) some winters when it's forecast to get  below 15F .

Washy below :

52417528662_73196bb53a_b.jpg

Will

Edited by Will Simpson
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20 hours ago, Jerrrod said:

Thanks for the help guys, after talking to a few people here, I'm lead to believe that on average it only shows every 15-20 years and it starts to get in the 80's in March. It's just now getting into the high 70's. I really do like the Emerald Isle and I just order 10 Filifera, they said they're not hybrids. I prefer them over the Robusta and as for as the Sabals, don't they grow really slow? Would a Pindo or Armata work? As for succulents and yuccas go, I really like the blue agave and the Yucca Rostrata and Filifera.

Filifera is going to be your fastest growing palm, when you consider both cold hardiness and growth rate.  I've had one get quite tall in 18 years.  See my thread on Filifera seeds for what it currently looks like.  I don't know the exact height but maybe 25-30 feet tall.  Not as fast as Robusta, I had a Robusta get to over 40 feet tall in the same time period, but it was killed in the Feb 21 freeze.    

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15 hours ago, Jerrrod said:

 Thanks, I did look at Alligator Alley and can't wait to get up there. In a couple of weeks I'm getting some bamboo from Frank Buck's in Gainesville. Should I start my Filiferia in the ground now, put them in pots or germinate them in my aquarium like last time, it's around 82 degrees constantly. @555 @5am I do have black tupelo seeds that I plan on planting and I just ordered some Paulownia seeds also.

I wouldn't plant a Filifera in the ground now.  They are significantly less hardy when small.  Wait until spring and get a solid growing season under it's belt before it sees cold.  Once it gets established and at least a decent size, they can take down to about 14 degrees undamaged.  And at least 10 degrees with heavy frond damage (and in many cases a lot lower). 

My two cents. 

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21 hours ago, Jerrrod said:

Thanks for the help guys, after talking to a few people here, I'm lead to believe that on average it only shows every 15-20 years and it starts to get in the 80's in March. It's just now getting into the high 70's. I really do like the Emerald Isle and I just order 10 Filifera, they said they're not hybrids. I prefer them over the Robusta and as for as the Sabals, don't they grow really slow? Would a Pindo or Armata work? As for succulents and yuccas go, I really like the blue agave and the Yucca Rostrata and Filifera.

If you're going to start some filifera or mutts from seed,I'd  reach out to @Collectorpalms. He has seeds from survivors of the 2021 polar event that saw  -2. They are posted in the for sale section.  I'd start that type in a marginal climate, my 2cents

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Thanks guys, I can't wait to get started. Great looking Tachy you got there Will. I'm trying to find a blue silver Princeps, but can't find one anywhere in the States. I didn't know that Rostrata came in blue, I am definitely getting those and the Emerald Island, if I can find them. The Emperor Sago is a go. BTW is there a way for me to tell by looking at the seeds if I definitely have Filiferia?

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4 hours ago, Jerrrod said:

Thanks guys, I can't wait to get started. Great looking Tachy you got there Will. I'm trying to find a blue silver Princeps, but can't find one anywhere in the States. I didn't know that Rostrata came in blue, I am definitely getting those and the Emerald Island, if I can find them. The Emperor Sago is a go. BTW is there a way for me to tell by looking at the seeds if I definitely have Filiferia?

No.  Filifera and Robusta seeds look virtually identical.  The only way to know is to know the tree it came from.

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23 hours ago, Jerrrod said:

Is Jubaea worth it or should I just stick with the others?

With these, I'd keep it in a pot.  You'll probably have a decade until it starts getting a large crown and hard to protect.

Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone (2012): 9b | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (1985, 1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a | 30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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On 10/11/2022 at 2:27 AM, Jerrrod said:

Is Jubaea worth it or should I just stick with the others?

Some people have them here in Poland. They withstand temperatures of -12C. In my opinion, they are the prettiest cold hardy palms, but they grow really slowly. They are not that hard to protect. You should tape or wire all the leaves together and put a solid bucket on the whole plant (when it's still small, so for the next 40 years). I would add a light bulb inside or Christmas lights and it should be fine.

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On 10/9/2022 at 11:56 PM, Jerrrod said:

Are there any other blue palms that I can try?

As others have stated the blue gray form of Mediterranean fan palm is a pretty good candidate for you. I have grown one in the ground several years here in OK (in zone 7a). You will want to keep freezing precipitation off of them as much as possible.

I have had good results getting trachycarpus, washingtonia, and chamaerops through Oklahoma winters with just good coverings during cold events. I got two trachycarpus through -14F in 2021 without any external heating, just good covering. I don't recommend -14F though. It was pretty terrible.

If you like the blue color, you may look into yucca rostrata. It will grow larger in Oklahoma than any blue palms without needing protection. We aren't a great palm state, but there are some nice yuccas around if you know where to look.

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Great, thanks Ben. I did order some Rigida seeds yesterday and will be starting my Washingtonias soon, indoors of course. Pole, I do love the massiveness of Jubaea, but probably don't have that long to wait for it though. 

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4 hours ago, Jerrrod said:

Pole, I do love the massiveness of Jubaea, but probably don't have that long to wait for it though. 

They ain't bad when they're little too ;)

download.jpeg

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On 10/9/2022 at 2:34 AM, Jerrrod said:

Hi everyone, I'm new here and need help. I just moved here from southern California and really do miss my palms.😀 I'm about 75 miles north of Dallas (7b), have clay soil and keep getting conflicting information about palms, like cold hardiness, growth rate & max size.  I did try Bismarckia and date palms (Canary and regular), last year.  I had the seeds growing good in a baggie floating in my aquarium. By the time winter set in they ~2' and had about 3 leaves. I heard that they were cold hardy and planted all of them (10). Never heard of a polar vortex, but you know what happened. I want to try again but don't want to lose them again. I don't mind protecting them, as much as I can without going crazy. Also I want some that I can see in my lifetime, not going to take 40 or 50 years to grow.  Lastly, I don't know if this is the right forum, but I also like succulents and cycads. If anyone has any other suggestions. Thanks guys.

A good rule of thump is to plant things that are 75% fool proof ( Yucca Rostrata, Needles. Sabal Minors. Sabal Brazoria. Sabal Louisiana.  The other 25% I dived up to ones that are leaf hardy to your zone low average, so yo will not be covering them every year, then just a handful on palms that you know will need to be covered every year.

Statically every 20 years ( so 5% ever winter.) you will may have temperatures than can damage or kill everything above ground. ( 2021, 1989, 1983 for example).

Current Texas Gardening Zone 9a, Mean (1999-2024): 22F Low/104F High. Yearly Precipitation 39.17 inches.

Extremes: Low Min 4F 2021, 13.8F 2024. High Max 112F 2011/2023, Precipitation Max 58 inches 2015, Lowest 19 Inches 2011.

Weather Station: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KTXCOLLE465

Ryan (Paleoclimatologist Since 4 billion Years ago, Meteorologist/Earth Scientist/Physicist Since 1995, Savy Horticulturist Since Birth.)

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Here is weather data for Gainesville, TX about 70 miles north of Dallas. on the state line of TX/OK. Those temperatures are not as nearly friendly to long term palms for Dallas metro. 
 

 

621B88F1-CC21-426E-AC3A-84C0CB981C31.jpeg

DF9713E2-ADF2-4274-9743-BD2D33ACFDF2.jpeg

Current Texas Gardening Zone 9a, Mean (1999-2024): 22F Low/104F High. Yearly Precipitation 39.17 inches.

Extremes: Low Min 4F 2021, 13.8F 2024. High Max 112F 2011/2023, Precipitation Max 58 inches 2015, Lowest 19 Inches 2011.

Weather Station: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KTXCOLLE465

Ryan (Paleoclimatologist Since 4 billion Years ago, Meteorologist/Earth Scientist/Physicist Since 1995, Savy Horticulturist Since Birth.)

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More weather long term data for South central OKlahoma 

3F30B7EF-60FC-4A03-97DC-A71DB2020284.jpeg

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Current Texas Gardening Zone 9a, Mean (1999-2024): 22F Low/104F High. Yearly Precipitation 39.17 inches.

Extremes: Low Min 4F 2021, 13.8F 2024. High Max 112F 2011/2023, Precipitation Max 58 inches 2015, Lowest 19 Inches 2011.

Weather Station: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KTXCOLLE465

Ryan (Paleoclimatologist Since 4 billion Years ago, Meteorologist/Earth Scientist/Physicist Since 1995, Savy Horticulturist Since Birth.)

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2 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

More weather long term data for South central OKlahoma 

3F30B7EF-60FC-4A03-97DC-A71DB2020284.jpeg

Excellent data. Where did you pull this from? I'd love to get this for Raleigh, NC. 

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Two ways. google NOWDATA ( Followed by Your National Weather Service office) , 

https://www.weather.gov/wrh/climate?wfo=RAH

Or go directly to your NWS homepage. https://www.weather.gov/rah/ then go to Climate and Past Weather, which is located above the Forecast map box with counties and warning and watches.

You can pick a location under the option, or you can "View Map" if you want see location near you.

To get several years of data, Click the City, Then click Monthly summarized data, The "year Range" some cities have 100 years of data, some cities stopped reporting, and some are newer stations with only the most recent year. "Variable" is going to be Min Temperature, and then "Summary" Daily Minimum.

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Current Texas Gardening Zone 9a, Mean (1999-2024): 22F Low/104F High. Yearly Precipitation 39.17 inches.

Extremes: Low Min 4F 2021, 13.8F 2024. High Max 112F 2011/2023, Precipitation Max 58 inches 2015, Lowest 19 Inches 2011.

Weather Station: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KTXCOLLE465

Ryan (Paleoclimatologist Since 4 billion Years ago, Meteorologist/Earth Scientist/Physicist Since 1995, Savy Horticulturist Since Birth.)

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Thanks for sharing that, Ryan.  I hadn't seen that site.  My nearest data point (Olympia) is 9 degrees colder for this year than what I measured.  I assume a lot of places will have similar results. 

I like this 

https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/IPS/cd/cd.html?_page=0&state=WA&_target1=Next+

You can pull reports from specific weather stations and probably find something a little more specific to your area. 

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9 hours ago, ThePole said:

They ain't bad when they're little too ;)

download.jpeg

Ok, now I'm hooked Pole, do they take long to germinate with heat?

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