My first time ever having to move palms inside because it’s cold out

[NickJames]

3 hours ago, Kiplin said:

Well, here we go. 32 low on Friday. Going to try to figure out a way to put a canopy over the buccaneer (easier said than done when it's over 15 ft tall) and will be covering the coconut & plumerias as well!

I’m going to deploy The Ultimate Setup for this event I think. My neighbors will probably think I’m nuts, until they see their adonidia Merrilli a few days later

[Allen]

9 hours ago, NickJames said:

I’m going to deploy The Ultimate Setup for this event I think. My neighbors will probably think I’m nuts, until they see their adonidia Merrilli a few days later

Us cold hardy palm peeps are good at this if you need any ideas.  I'm just entertained when FL peeps are protecting their palms.

[Lou-StAugFL]

All I want for Christmas is for it to stay in the upper 30s not 31 like it is forecast right now. LOL

[NickJames]

5 hours ago, Allen said:

Us cold hardy palm peeps are good at this if you need any ideas.  I'm just entertained when FL peeps are protecting their palms.

It’s just so sad because it’s 74, full sun, with a southeast wind right now. 

[PalmatierMeg]

The palm obsession breaks your heart sometimes. Local new says 40F here Sat. morning. I'm not convinced. Still contemplating what to do with the uber tropicals.

[RedRabbit]

5 hours ago, Lou-StAugFL said:

All I want for Christmas is for it to stay in the upper 30s not 31 like it is forecast right now. LOL

Could be worse: 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CJJNu2KhqpV/?igshid=1l49uvjf838pi

[Lou-StAugFL]

I remember in 1977 it snowed probably almost an inch of snow.  We ran over to the old fort green since it was the only place with hills and slide down the hills with cardboard and cafeteria trays.   Lots of fun but it did tons of damage to the plants in town because it was so cold too.  Can't remember if it was that cold or the cold in the 1980s that killed many of the large washingtonia palms and australian pines.

[NickJames]

10 minutes ago, Lou-StAugFL said:

I remember in 1977 it snowed probably almost an inch of snow.  We ran over to the old fort green since it was the only place with hills and slide down the hills with cardboard and cafeteria trays.   Lots of fun but it did tons of damage to the plants in town because it was so cold too.  Can't remember if it was that cold or the cold in the 1980s that killed many of the large washingtonia palms and australian pines.

Is that also what happened to all the queen palms? I remember in the 90s you couldn’t easily find them in Jacksonville. 

[kinzyjr]

23 minutes ago, NickJames said:

Is that also what happened to all the queen palms? I remember in the 90s you couldn’t easily find them in Jacksonville. 

Could have been any number of freezes, but the ones in the 1980s take the cake since there were so many of them and they were so severe. 

1985 was awful: https://www.weather.gov/ilm/January1985cold

[JJPalmer]

7 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

The palm obsession breaks your heart sometimes. Local new says 40F here Sat. morning. I'm not convinced. Still contemplating what to do with the uber tropicals.

I’m curious - what tropical are you trying out down there?

[chad2468emr]

When the projected low is 32 degrees and you’re going out of town for two days, concessions must be made.... 

[NickJames]

1 hour ago, chad2468emr said:

When the projected low is 32 degrees and you’re going out of town for two days, concessions must be made.... 

I canceled all travel in January and February. Not even joking. Lol. 

[PalmatierMeg]

2 hours ago, chad2468emr said:

When the projected low is 32 degrees and you’re going out of town for two days, concessions must be made.... 

Been there, done that.

[PalmatierMeg]

On 12/23/2020 at 9:37 PM, JJPalmer said:

I’m curious - what tropical are you trying out down there?

Areca oxycarpa, macrocalyx, catechu dwarf x macrocalyx, Joey altifrons, Verschaffeltii splendida, various Heterospathe & Hydriastele

[Lou-StAugFL]

Got my Christmas gift, only got down to 34 degrees and no frost here in St. Augustine South.  Very happy about that!

[Merlyn]

Only 33F and medium frost here in the Sanford area.  My Acurite datalogger decided to stop logging, so it might have gotten a degree or two cooler at the "dip" at 3-5AM.  Their software is really flaky...

[NickJames]

I provided my data in the climate thread, but I briefly dipped below freezing hours before sunrise and then steadily rose until sunrise. It looks like possibly 30 mins total at or below freezing. Light frost. 
 

The wind saved me.  

[Merlyn]

1 hour ago, Merlyn said:

Only 33F and medium frost here in the Sanford area.  My Acurite datalogger decided to stop logging, so it might have gotten a degree or two cooler at the "dip" at 3-5AM.  Their software is really flaky...

Too late to edit this one, but the Acurite had switched itself to "USB MODE 2" and quit transmitting.  I switched to mode 3 and downloaded. 29F for about 1.5 hours and then 28F for 1.75 hours, then a sharp jump to 33F over about 10 minutes at 5AM.

[ck_in_fla]

Bottomed out at 31F this morning here in Winter Springs.  Light winds seem to have prevented any frost in my yard.  I did bring all of the orchids in Thursday afternoon.  But, everything else seems to be fine as the duration of time below 32F was minimal (an hour or two at most).

[redant]

Was better then expected overnight but my rare palms came in out of the cold anyway. 

[Merlyn]

Copy and paste from the Climate thread, just FYI in case people aren't looking over there:

Last night was officially the coldest night here since I started seriously building my tropical garden.  It may take a few days to see anything on most of it.  

The stuff that took obvious damage was: Allagoptera Caudescens (solid leaf with no canopy = frost spotting and burn; solid leaf with Butia & Alfredii canopy = no damage, pinnate 8' diameter with no canopy = ok), Arenga Pinnata some leaf curling and light bronzing, Zamia Furfuracea severe bronzing if exposed to frost, otherwise ok; Cannas and Heliconias burnt to a crisp, Oysters burnt if exposed to frost, otherwise ok; Cavendish type bananas all torched; Caryota Gigas 2' tall light bronzing; Ficus Elastica (rubber tree) and Benghalensis significant burn, but Lyrata mostly ok; big Flamethrower mostly burned brown from frost exposure, another smaller one semi-exposed and seems fine; Attalea Cohune x2 slight bronzing; Licuala v. Sumawongii small in ground ok, Licuala Grandis 4' tall in pot ok, Bambusa Lako x2 lots of burned leaves; Cocos yellow lots of bronzing but green one 6' away no obvious damage; lots of light bronzing on Bottle/Spindle palms all around the yard.

Stuff that surprised me with how good they look now, basically no visible damage: Bambusa Vulgaris Wamin "Buddha Belly"; Dictyosperma Album/Rubrum; Ptychosperma Macarthurii; Dypsis Pembana; Encephalartos Kisambo, Laurentianus, Whitelockii & Ituriensis; Sea grapes x4; Corypha (unknown type); Elaeis Guineensis; 4' and 12' tall Caryota Mitis.  The ones that really shocked me were about 25 Gaussia Princeps scattered around, mostly about 1 foot tall and pinnate but still tiny.  Zero apparent damage on any of them, even in high frost areas!

The palm that looks the worst right now is a Flamethrower that got torched.  Looking at the bronzing now makes me think it'll die before spring comes around.  It had just opened up the big vertical frond and it was red yesterday...now the smaller horizontal leaves are brown when they were deep green yesterday.  Three other Flamethrowers in a triple next to the house were perfectly fine...so far!

[chad2468emr]

Winter, man..... 

Just arrive back home after spending time in south Florida for two days, and I honestly have no idea how cold it got here in the boonies outside Kissimmee. From the sound of it, other posters that are nearby saw below freezing so I wouldn’t be surprised if I did as well. 

16 out of the 20 palm species in my container garden were brought inside, with just a washingtonia, mule, butia, and majesty left outside. The majesty was sheltered under my screened in porch, but the other three were left out in the open on a south facing wall and I’m not surprised that they made it through just fine given they’re the hardiest species I have.

As much as I’m excited to get a house I own where I can actually plant palms in-ground, these posts don’t make me envy those of you that couldn’t just take them inside for a bit and have seen some damage as a result. Was this a particularly bad cold snap for CFL? I know I’ve mentioned this about 8x in this thread, but being from south Florida, I really didn’t expect it to get THIS cold THIS often here, maybe 1 or 2 nights every 2-3 years or so, but this is something else... please tell me this year isn’t normal, haha. 

Everything seems to have done relatively okay inside even with the minimal natural light. All my larger stuff was in my foyer and had to share the low light conditions there, but anything in a 7 gal pot or smaller were in my living room with 10 grow bulbs to help keep some version of stasis until I put them back out tomorrow. 

That is, everything but my Malayan coconut. (Why do I not find this surprising? Hahaha) It’s growth has slowed to a complete halt and in recent days I’d noticed it starting to get a little yellow which I also expected during winter, even with my bringing it in at night if the temps are set to fall below 45 degrees. However, what’s alarming to me are these new brown spots in the middle of its newest frond that’s only half emerged. (The first pic below) The forecast is set to have lows above 50 degrees for the next 7 days so I’m hoping it bounces back and whatever this is slows after the good, through watering I’m going to give it tomorrow once it’s outside again. 

Edited December 27, 2020 by chad2468emr

[James B]

3 hours ago, Merlyn said:

Copy and paste from the Climate thread, just FYI in case people aren't looking over there:

Last night was officially the coldest night here since I started seriously building my tropical garden.  It may take a few days to see anything on most of it.  

The stuff that took obvious damage was: Allagoptera Caudescens (solid leaf with no canopy = frost spotting and burn; solid leaf with Butia & Alfredii canopy = no damage, pinnate 8' diameter with no canopy = ok), Arenga Pinnata some leaf curling and light bronzing, Zamia Furfuracea severe bronzing if exposed to frost, otherwise ok; Cannas and Heliconias burnt to a crisp, Oysters burnt if exposed to frost, otherwise ok; Cavendish type bananas all torched; Caryota Gigas 2' tall light bronzing; Ficus Elastica (rubber tree) and Benghalensis significant burn, but Lyrata mostly ok; big Flamethrower mostly burned brown from frost exposure, another smaller one semi-exposed and seems fine; Attalea Cohune x2 slight bronzing; Licuala v. Sumawongii small in ground ok, Licuala Grandis 4' tall in pot ok, Bambusa Lako x2 lots of burned leaves; Cocos yellow lots of bronzing but green one 6' away no obvious damage; lots of light bronzing on Bottle/Spindle palms all around the yard.

Stuff that surprised me with how good they look now, basically no visible damage: Bambusa Vulgaris Wamin "Buddha Belly"; Dictyosperma Album/Rubrum; Ptychosperma Macarthurii; Dypsis Pembana; Encephalartos Kisambo, Laurentianus, Whitelockii & Ituriensis; Sea grapes x4; Corypha (unknown type); Elaeis Guineensis; 4' and 12' tall Caryota Mitis.  The ones that really shocked me were about 25 Gaussia Princeps scattered around, mostly about 1 foot tall and pinnate but still tiny.  Zero apparent damage on any of them, even in high frost areas!

The palm that looks the worst right now is a Flamethrower that got torched.  Looking at the bronzing now makes me think it'll die before spring comes around.  It had just opened up the big vertical frond and it was red yesterday...now the smaller horizontal leaves are brown when they were deep green yesterday.  Three other Flamethrowers in a triple next to the house were perfectly fine...so far!

Wow all that damage from only 28 degrees?!?. Yikes and Macrocarpa is supposed to be Hardy to 28. Mine have not seen below 29 at the absolute low in my yard in the winter of 2018. Last two winters have been very mild for me. Never saw below 34 last year and so far have not seen below 36 or 37 this year. Minimal burn. I think the cold in Florida is more brutal than it is at similar temps here in SoCal. Strange how geography works sometimes.

[chad2468emr]

33 minutes ago, James B said:

Wow all that damage from only 28 degrees?!?. Yikes and Macrocarpa is supposed to be Hardy to 28. Mine have not seen below 29 at the absolute low in my yard in the winter of 2018. Last two winters have been very mild for me. Never saw below 34 last year and so far have not seen below 36 or 37 this year. Minimal burn. I think the cold in Florida is more brutal than it is at similar temps here in SoCal. Strange how geography works sometimes.

Yeah... this made me nervous. Everything’s in pots at the moment, but I’m choc full of supposed zone 9b palms that are hardy down to 25 degrees (or close) in preparation of my future home: oliviformis, archontos, (cunninghamiana, purpurea, alexandrae) marcocarpa, teddies.... more that I’m just not thinking of right now. And I keep seeing people post pics of devastated palms from this freeze while all mine are hunkering down inside. I’m terrified for when I finally make the leap and I’ve got them planted in-ground. I’m pretty neurotic as-is and that’s gonna get a whole lot worse.

Then I’m sure I’ll run errands in downtown Orlando tomorrow just 25 miles away and see coconuts completely unscathed barring a few yellow tips thanks to that whole great “urban heat island” that I get nothing but taunted by... 

Edited December 27, 2020 by chad2468emr

[James B]

7 minutes ago, chad2468emr said:

Yeah... this made me nervous. Everything’s in pots at the moment, but I’m choc full of supposed zone 9b palms that are hardy down to 25 degrees (or close) in preparation of my future home: oliviformis, archontos, (cunninghamiana, purpurea, alexandrae) marcocarpa, teddies.... more that I’m just not thinking of right now. And I keep seeing people post pics of devastated palms from this freeze while all mine are hunkering down inside. I’m terrified for when I finally make the leap and I’ve got them planted in-ground. I’m pretty neurotic as-is and that’s gonna get a whole lot worse.

Then I’m sure I’ll run errands in downtown Orlando tomorrow just 25 miles away and see coconuts completely unscathed barring a few yellow tips thanks to that whole great “urban heat island” that I get nothing but taunted by... 

There really are so many factors for sure. Not to mention individual plants genetics. Learned that in person after planting over 30 Archontophoenix. The range of size, speed, and hardiness even among specimens of the same subspecies shows lots of variation.

[Kiplin]

I think for many of these, they build up hardiness as they grow. They might be more tender when they're small. I've got a yard full of mature Macrocarpas, d. Pembanas, olivformis that have no protection. They all were brought in from south FL this last May but I have full expectation that they will be fine in our climate here. Now I will say that I'm in a fortunate microclimate where we are 3-4 degrees warmer than a few miles in about any direction (higher elevation, close to a huge lake) so I don't expect to have many nights in the 20s. If we do, though, I'll do what I can to protect them since they were expensive and the work of protection is easier than the work of replacement!!

[Merlyn]

11 hours ago, James B said:

Wow all that damage from only 28 degrees?!?. Yikes and Macrocarpa is supposed to be Hardy to 28.

Mine had no problem with frost and 35F, and the ones near my house are fine today.  My reading of KinzyJR's hardiness spreadsheet showed variable damage.  A couple were defoliated at 27F in LA, dead at 26F in Oceanside, no damage at 27F with canopy in CA, 50% damage at 29F except for 1 with 0% damage under canopy, 27F dead in San Marcos, 28F 80% burn Vista CA.

I'd say Macrocarpa isn't hardy to 28F, most likely variably dead under 30F.  On reading the descriptions it seems like ones under canopy survived dramatically better, which is what happened in my yard.  The burned one was fully exposed to the sky and frost.  My others are in the "nursery area" near the house and are under Queen canopy with radiant house warmth.  The largest below is about 1 leaf behind the burned one in the previous photo, I got them from MB Palms in late 2018 as 3 gallons.  The other two are only about a foot tall each and hidden by the other seedlings in pots.

[James B]

44 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

Mine had no problem with frost and 35F, and the ones near my house are fine today.  My reading of KinzyJR's hardiness spreadsheet showed variable damage.  A couple were defoliated at 27F in LA, dead at 26F in Oceanside, no damage at 27F with canopy in CA, 50% damage at 29F except for 1 with 0% damage under canopy, 27F dead in San Marcos, 28F 80% burn Vista CA.

I'd say Macrocarpa isn't hardy to 28F, most likely variably dead under 30F.  On reading the descriptions it seems like ones under canopy survived dramatically better, which is what happened in my yard.  The burned one was fully exposed to the sky and frost.  My others are in the "nursery area" near the house and are under Queen canopy with radiant house warmth.  The largest below is about 1 leaf behind the burned one in the previous photo, I got them from MB Palms in late 2018 as 3 gallons.  The other two are only about a foot tall each and hidden by the other seedlings in pots.

Yes I’ve found exposed vs canopy can make a world of difference especially if it’s a dense canopy of taller palms. 
I also think where a palm was purchased from also makes a difference as well. I am more confident purchasing from a nursery in Riverside which keeps their palms outside in a similar climate to me than I am purchasing from Jungle Music where they protect their palms in a green house only a couple miles from the beach. I’ve been out of Florida for 16 years but I’d bet palms from nurseries in south Florida are more delicate than palms raised in central florida. Not sure where your Chambeyronia were purchased though but could be a factor possibly. Either way I’m sorry to see your Chambeyronia take such a hit. It may still recover.

[redant]

It takes months the see what's going to make it and what's going to croak, even dead palms seem to push a spear sometimes before dropping dead. Others that look dead quickly sometimes pull on through.  What I see by my many years of palming, CA cold and FL cold are two different things. Maybe it's humidity or something but when I see CA palmers talking about cold damage I'm like that would have clearly killed that in FL.

Edited December 27, 2020 by redant

[James B]

6 minutes ago, redant said:

It takes months the see what's going to make it and what's going to croak, even dead palms seem to push a spear sometimes before dropping dead. Others that look dead quickly sometimes pull on through.  What I see by my many years of palming, CA cold and FL cold are two different things. Maybe it's humidity or something but when I see CA palmers talking about cold damage I'm like that would have clearly killed that in FL.

I’ve noticed that from reading cold damage posts on PT as well. Perhaps someone on here who is more knowledgeable than myself can explain it. 

[chad2468emr]

43 minutes ago, James B said:

Yes I’ve found exposed vs canopy can make a world of difference especially if it’s a dense canopy of taller palms. 
I also think where a palm was purchased from also makes a difference as well. I am more confident purchasing from a nursery in Riverside which keeps their palms outside in a similar climate to me than I am purchasing from Jungle Music where they protect their palms in a green house only a couple miles from the beach. I’ve been out of Florida for 16 years but I’d bet palms from nurseries in south Florida are more delicate than palms raised in central florida. Not sure where your Chambeyronia were purchased though but could be a factor possibly. Either way I’m sorry to see your Chambeyronia take such a hit. It may still recover.

Good to know that there’s hope! I’ve decided that once I have the chance to plant some stuff in-ground, anything that sketches me out at 32 or below is staying in a pot until I have some sort of canopy in place. And then, they’re getting put in the ground as crowded as a one of our Floridian bars as once the COVID restrictions were lifted. 

[John hovancsek]

17 hours ago, redant said:

Was better then expected overnight but my rare palms came in out of the cold anyway. 

I can’t tell you how many times my garage looked like this when I lived in Naples fl.. I’m so glad I made the move to Hawaii but I still feel for all you that need to do this because of the love for palms. I can’t tell you how many times I lost expensive palms...don’t let losses stop you

[Merlyn]

Mine were grown locally on the South side of Orlando at MB Palms.  It'll probably take a few days to see what damage is permanent or latent, especially since I had about 11 hours of 31-33F last night too.  I can see a bit of bronzing on the upper leaves on a Dypsis Pembana, but the lower leaves look pretty ok.  A pair of Bottles next to the Macrocarpa look pretty bad right now too.  At the moment I'd rate Macrocarpa as about the same as a Spindle, slightly hardier than a Bottle...but not by much.

 

[Merlyn]

Here's my temperature chart for the last 3 nights.  11 hours of 31-33F last night probably did NOT help things...

[James B]

36 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

Mine were grown locally on the South side of Orlando at MB Palms.  It'll probably take a few days to see what damage is permanent or latent, especially since I had about 11 hours of 31-33F last night too.  I can see a bit of bronzing on the upper leaves on a Dypsis Pembana, but the lower leaves look pretty ok.  A pair of Bottles next to the Macrocarpa look pretty bad right now too.  At the moment I'd rate Macrocarpa as about the same as a Spindle, slightly hardier than a Bottle...but not by much.

 

On the bright side for some reason you can plant bottle palms in FL. Here in Socal you plant them in ground they’ll be dead in a year. Some people have success with pots but they do not do well here overall: Home Depot sells them year round though and makes a killing off them.

[redant]

2 hours ago, John hovancsek said:

I can’t tell you how many times my garage looked like this when I lived in Naples fl.. I’m so glad I made the move to Hawaii but I still feel for all you that need to do this because of the love for palms. I can’t tell you how many times I lost expensive palms...don’t let losses stop you

While I'm always super envious when I see HI palm pictures it's just not gonna happen for me. All my family is around me here so have to just make the best garden I can with what we are dealt.  My outlook over the years has changed a lot. I buy my palms small and cheap, mostly from Jeff Marcus, then get them to a reasonable size in pots and enjoy them. When they get to big for that they are released into the garden. We seem to be getting longer stretches' without the nasty cold fronts letting me get away with things for many years before mother nature crushes my tropical dreams.

[chad2468emr]

3 hours ago, Merlyn said:

Mine were grown locally on the South side of Orlando at MB Palms. 

A little off-topic, but how do you find your MB palms specimens perform both in cold and overall? I feel a few of the palms I got last August were stunted somehow and have shown signs of nutritional deficiencies like yellowing and shrinking fronds, but maybe that’s just because I didn’t fertilize enough at the end of the growing season. That being said, I treated them the same as my other palms but the only ones I’ve had issue with are a cunninghamiana, oliviformis, and pembana that I got from him.  All have put out just a single frond since August and they were all SIGNIFICANTLY smaller than their last. Meanwhile I have other archontos (purpurea / alexandrae) from other sources that keep growing like weeds, even in this weather, and are supposedly more cold-sensitive. He was a great dude and cut me a hell of a deal on a dozen or so palms, most of which are doing great, so I’m not speaking I’ll of him. Just hard not to notice that suggestion of a pattern. 

[Merlyn]

3 hours ago, chad2468emr said:

A little off-topic, but how do you find your MB palms specimens perform both in cold and overall?

I bought 5x B. Alfredii, Arenga Engleri, Copernicia Fallaensis & Baileyana, 2x Chambeyronia, Dypsis Pembana, and Kerriodoxa Elegans from him.  The Alfies were in the summer and the rest were in December, and I did notice some nutritional deficiencies in the Copernicias.  Everything has grown really well, though, so I'd attribute the mild potassium deficiency to the cold snap that happened about a week before I bought them.  That, and Copernicia like to grow a huge root structure before growing too much above ground.

[chad2468emr]

1 hour ago, Merlyn said:

I bought 5x B. Alfredii, Arenga Engleri, Copernicia Fallaensis & Baileyana, 2x Chambeyronia, Dypsis Pembana, and Kerriodoxa Elegans from him.  The Alfies were in the summer and the rest were in December, and I did notice some nutritional deficiencies in the Copernicias.  Everything has grown really well, though, so I'd attribute the mild potassium deficiency to the cold snap that happened about a week before I bought them.  That, and Copernicia like to grow a huge root structure before growing too much above ground.

Sounds about right! I got most of those as well minus the kerriodoxa and arenga. His massive selection of alfies at so many different sizes was amazing. Saw the only full grown alfie I’ve ever seen there. The copernicia I got is really growing one massive root system as well so I get what you mean there! I had to pot it up in November because it was reaching through the holes of its previous container. Like I said he was a cool guy and a pleasure to do business with, I was just curious. 

I have found myself wondering what on earth he’s doing with all those licualas, copernicias, (he had some huge ones I was drooling over) lipstick palms, etc in this weather. I wonder if he makes sure to sell them all before November or something. 

[Johnny Palmseed]

10 hours ago, redant said:

It takes months the see what's going to make it and what's going to croak, even dead palms seem to push a spear sometimes before dropping dead. Others that look dead quickly sometimes pull on through.

I agree 100%. I kind of laugh a bit when people heave a sigh of relief when it warms slightly after a cold front. Until March, you just don't know. This year seems pretty cold and I don't know anything, but I think there will be quite a bit of dead "zone pushed" palms by spring/summer time.