Make your own zone map!

[Jimbean]

On 8/14/2021 at 1:56 PM, kinzyjr said:

Made this one using composite stations and a more refined zoning scheme:

What is this refined zoning scheme?

[kinzyjr]

14 minutes ago, Jimbean said:

What is this refined zoning scheme?

Each of the USDA zones were split into 5 different zones, rather than the typical 2 zones (ex. 9a, 9b).  The legend is at the top-right of the map and posted below individually for easier viewing.

[RedRabbit]

On 8/14/2021 at 4:56 PM, kinzyjr said:

Made this one using composite stations and a more refined zoning scheme:

Great work @kinzyjr!

I see a few places where it skips a zone, like in Pinellas it goes from 10a2 to 10b1 without crossing 10a-b. I think this cold be because Whitted is 10b and PIE is 10a, but there's no data stations in between to suggest there's an in between value so it's jumping from one zone to another. Is that right?

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by RedRabbit

[kinzyjr]

19 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

Great work @kinzyjr!

I see a few places where it skips a zone, like in Pinellas it goes from 10a2 to 10b1 without crossing 10a-b. I think this cold be because Whitted is 10b and PIE is 10a, but there's no data stations in between to suggest there's an in between value so it's jumping from one zone to another. Is that right?

Thank you.  It was a lot of planning to find the stations that were reasonably close to each other to close the gaps in the weather records and then merge everything together.  I see a few small oversights.  There should have been a tiny blue blob in the Winter Haven area that stretched from the airport to Cypress Gardens Blvd., and the skip-a-zones you mentioned are indeed because of a quick jump in the stations.  There probably should have been a thin band of transition zone added like I did with the light purple 9a-b band stretching from Spring Hill to the western side of Jacksonville.  There was a lot more room between the stations in that area, so it was easier to do in the very tightly zoned St. Pete and South Florida areas.  The area east of Lake Wales could have used a small sliver of 9b-2 around it as well.  the rural composites I put together actually put up zone 10a-1 numbers, so the inward bulge of 10a-1 toward the turnpike was hard to account for when considering how chilly some of the stations just to their west are with their avg. lows.

[Jimbean]

On 8/14/2021 at 1:56 PM, kinzyjr said:

Made this one using composite stations and a more refined zoning scheme:

After looking at it for a few minutes, I've realized that this map isn't right.  The detail is appealing, but it is not consistent with what grows where.

[JJPalmer]

15 hours ago, Jimbean said:

After looking at it for a few minutes, I've realized that this map isn't right.  The detail is appealing, but it is not consistent with what grows where.

I think it's important to separate what our perceptions vs. reality here.  It's neither about what does grow somewhere or what can grow somewhere.   Climate zones are based solely on average annual minimum lows; there are zone 11's in California that cannot grow coconuts.   Elevation, proximity to large bodies of water, urban heat islands, vegetation variation, etc. will all play a factor.

In general, I think this map is quite close. 

[Jimbean]

9 hours ago, JJPalmer said:

 It's neither about what does grow somewhere or what can grow somewhere.   Climate zones are based solely on average annual minimum lows;

Technically you are correct, however I think this approach is useless.

[Teegurr]

On 8/14/2021 at 3:56 PM, kinzyjr said:

Made this one using composite stations and a more refined zoning scheme:

Very nice map! What's that blip near Venus FL, west of Lake Okeechobee?

[kinzyjr]

12 hours ago, Teegurr said:

Very nice map! What's that blip near Venus FL, west of Lake Okeechobee?

That's Archbold Biological Station down in Venus, FL.  This is probably the coldest spot that far south on the peninsula by a large margin.  While there are bonafide zone 10 areas in Sebring and Lake Placid due to lake microclimates and elevation, this area drew the short straw with a record low of 13F.

[ruskinPalms]

I think maybe I’ve asked this before, but how accurate are those heat maps that I guess must be from satellite imagery? Are those supposed to be surface temps? And if they are accurate, would they be useful to help to make zone maps? Like, take the heat maps from the coldest nights for as long as the data exists and then overlay the maps/data somehow to make an average coldest night heat zone map. I really take a lot weather stations temp measurements with a huge grain of salt, especially personal weather stations because they are often mounted too high, to low, under canopy, on the back porch etc.  Even a lot of official stations are questionable in my opinion too… at any rate it is always best to see what is growing around. If you see ficus trees taking over Sabals in your area then it is a pretty safe bet you are in a zone 10+ area or at least an area that is probably good to try “zone 10” palms no matter what it’s official USDA zone may be. 

Edited September 1, 2021 by ruskinPalms

[kinzyjr]

4 hours ago, ruskinPalms said:

I think maybe I’ve asked this before, but how accurate are those heat maps that I guess must be from satellite imagery? Are those supposed to be surface temps? And if they are accurate, would they be useful to help to make zone maps? Like, take the heat maps from the coldest nights for as long as the data exists and then overlay the maps/data somehow to make an average coldest night heat zone map. I really take a lot weather stations temp measurements with a huge grain of salt, especially personal weather stations because they are often mounted too high, to low, under canopy, on the back porch etc.  Even a lot of official stations are questionable in my opinion too… at any rate it is always best to see what is growing around. If you see ficus trees taking over Sabals in your area then it is a pretty safe bet you are in a zone 10+ area or at least an area that is probably good to try “zone 10” palms no matter what it’s official USDA zone may be. 

Not a bad idea.  If anyone has the data, it would be an interesting product.  As far as Ficus aurea (Strangler Fig) goes, that would put all of Polk County in the "good to try" category since it is native here: https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/plant.aspx?id=2466

[ruskinPalms]

5 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

Not a bad idea.  If anyone has the data, it would be an interesting product.  As far as Ficus aurea (Strangler Fig) goes, that would put all of Polk County in the "good to try" category since it is native here: https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/plant.aspx?id=2466

I can’t vouch for Polk county but strangler fig is only native in the much warmer parts of manatee county. I haven’t seen it growing natively too far inland and there is no real elevation or big lakes in manatee county either. You certainly have shown a lot of interesting warm spots with nice palms in polk county that I did not know existed so I’m sure you can find strangler figs growing in those areas of pork county. Inland manatee county is an icebox! 

[RedRabbit]

9 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

Not a bad idea.  If anyone has the data, it would be an interesting product.  As far as Ficus aurea (Strangler Fig) goes, that would put all of Polk County in the "good to try" category since it is native here: https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/plant.aspx?id=2466

Have you seen them there? I’m curious where they’re at if there really are any. According to USF they’ve been found by Lake Arbuckle and Johnson Island. 

4 hours ago, ruskinPalms said:

I can’t vouch for Polk county but strangler fig is only native in the much warmer parts of manatee county. I haven’t seen it growing natively too far inland and there is no real elevation or big lakes in manatee county either. You certainly have shown a lot of interesting warm spots with nice palms in polk county that I did not know existed so I’m sure you can find strangler figs growing in those areas of pork county. Inland manatee county is an icebox! 

Strangler figs may be the best indicator of (what I consider) z10 in Florida. It’s been very interesting to see where they grow, and don’t grow, locally. Lack of strangler figs in Oldsmar, despite being right on Tampa Bay, is a big reason I don’t think it’s really z10. 

There have been a few surprises with them though. I’ve never seen one on Honeymoon Island, but they grow on the mainland in Dunedin/Palm Harbor. Honeymoon Island is clearly warmer so there must be factors other than temperature involved.

Edited September 1, 2021 by RedRabbit

[kinzyjr]

5 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

Have you seen them there? I’m curious where they’re at if there really are any. According to USF they’ve been found by Lake Arbuckle and Johnson Island. 

I think this is a Ficus aurea near Lake Howard in Winter Haven.  Please let me know if I've made a mistake.

[RedRabbit]

5 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

I think this is a Ficus aurea near Lake Howard in Winter Haven.  Please let me know if I've made a mistake.

Great find! It looks like a southern live oak with a ficus wrapped around it. It’s probably F aurea, but I’m not 100% sure. F aurea’s aerial roots are usually cleaner, but I’ve seen them like this too so that’s probably what it is. 

Edited September 1, 2021 by RedRabbit

[kinzyjr]

9 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

Great find! It looks like a southern live oak with a ficus, probably aurea, wrapped around it.

I came across this one coming back home from Winter Haven one afternoon.  I think that there are probably more that are not viewable from the road, but likely out around Lake Hancock somewhere.  They are usually spread by birds, so it would make sense for them to be in a nature preserve where there are more hosts.  I saw one at Myakka River State Park that was deceased because they chainsawed the host Sabal palmetto.  I captured the approximate location near the Myakka Outpost in the snip below:

[Jimbean]

4 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

I think this is a Ficus aurea near Lake Howard in Winter Haven.  Please let me know if I've made a mistake.

 

I can't tell for sure without looking at the leaves, but that could also be Indian Laurel fig (Ficus microcarpa).

[Jimbean]

9 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

Have you seen them there? I’m curious where they’re at if there really are any. According to USF they’ve been found by Lake Arbuckle and Johnson Island. 

Strangler figs may be the best indicator of (what I consider) z10 in Florida. It’s been very interesting to see where they grow, and don’t grow, locally. Lack of strangler figs in Oldsmar, despite being right on Tampa Bay, is a big reason I don’t think it’s really z10. 

There have been a few surprises with them though. I’ve never seen one on Honeymoon Island, but they grow on the mainland in Dunedin/Palm Harbor. Honeymoon Island is clearly warmer so there must be factors other than temperature involved.

Imo, Ficus aurea is an indicator of warm zone 9B.  They can be seen growing west of I-95 in Brevard, as far north as Cocoa. 

[kinzyjr]

4 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

Great find! It looks like a southern live oak with a ficus wrapped around it. It’s probably F aurea, but I’m not 100% sure. F aurea’s aerial roots are usually cleaner, but I’ve seen them like this too so that’s probably what it is. 

 

15 minutes ago, Jimbean said:

I can't tell for sure without looking at the leaves, but that could also be Indian Laurel fig (Ficus microcarpa).

I'm not sure if this photo will help or not:

I'm also not sure about this one in the same area:

[RedRabbit]

3 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

 

I'm not sure if this photo will help or not:

I'm also not sure about this one in the same area:

The second one definitely looks like F aurea. The first one I'm still not sure. I think it's F aurea, but it looks like whatever this ficus is growing in Tampa Heights due to the messy aerial roots. I'm guessing it's just F aurea that looks weird due to it growing on an oak tree.

That's awesome you found these. I've been wondering for a long time where they actually live in interior Central Florida. Now I've finally seen some real examples of them.  

Edited September 2, 2021 by RedRabbit

[RedRabbit]

3 hours ago, Jimbean said:

Imo, Ficus aurea is an indicator of warm zone 9B.  They can be seen growing west of I-95 in Brevard, as far north as Cocoa. 

Maybe it's different on the east coast. Here F aurea's range is broadly consistent with where coconuts survived the 2010 freeze.  They're much more cold tolerant so I've seen a few growing in colder areas like inland St. Pete and even a couple in Seminole Heights, but generally speaking they're staying in area's that are clearly z10.  

Edited September 2, 2021 by RedRabbit

[Jimbean]

11 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

 

I'm not sure if this photo will help or not:

I'm also not sure about this one in the same area:

Ficus microcarpa

They are roughly the same cold hardiness as aurea though.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Jimbean

[Jimbean]

8 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

Maybe it's different on the east coast. Here F aurea's range is broadly consistent with where coconuts survived the 2010 freeze.  They're much more cold tolerant so I've seen a few growing in colder areas like inland St. Pete and even a couple in Seminole Heights, but generally speaking they're staying in area's that are clearly z10.  

hmmmm

I've noticed that tropical hardwoods are more common on the east coast than the west coast.  Why is that?

For example if you look at ranges of each species you will see them go up along the east coast typically to Cape Canaveral, but on the west coast the ranges tend to be patchy.

[kinzyjr]

Thank you, @Jimbean + @RedRabbit for weighing in on those photos.  I can't tell the difference between those Ficus spp.  I have an eye for numbers, but not much of one for botany.  I believe the east coast has a few advantages in most cases:

• Closer to the generally milder waters of the Gulf Stream
• Further away from continental air masses given the general trajectory of cold fronts from the north and north west

This plays itself out heavily in all of our maps.

Switching back to the topic of the thread:

On 10/26/2019 at 12:22 PM, kinzyjr said:

Map-by-map comparison showing effects of topography on climate during freezes: compare the map I made above of the hot(red), mild(orange), moderate(yellow), and cold(green) zone 9b/10a areas to the topographical map below (From: https://en-us.topographic-map.com/maps/k64/Lakeland/).  Note where the mild spots tend to be:

[RedRabbit]

On 9/1/2021 at 9:16 PM, kinzyjr said:

 

I'm not sure if this photo will help or not:

I'm also not sure about this one in the same area:

@Eric in Orlando would you mind giving us an ID for these?

I think these are Ficus aurea, and @Jimbean thinks they’re F microcarpa.

13 hours ago, Jimbean said:

hmmmm

I've noticed that tropical hardwoods are more common on the east coast than the west coast.  Why is that?

For example if you look at ranges of each species you will see them go up along the east coast typically to Cape Canaveral, but on the west coast the ranges tend to be patchy.

I think there are a couple factors with why tropicals appear to more or less drop off at Cape Canaveral. 
1. It is a particularly good microclimate since it’s way out in the Atlantic.

2. The transition zone on the east coast is less observable than the west coast. There’s a big difference between the climate in NSB and Cocoa Beach. It looks overly abrupt because the transition zone is around NASA so we can’t really observe it. On the west coast you can see the changes more gradually since the land is privately owned. On the west coast Clearwater Beach is about like Cocoa Beach and New Port Richey is roughly the same as NSB. Communities in between, like Dunedin, don’t really have an east coast equivalent for their climate. 
For what it’s worth, I’ve read the Turtlemound area of NSB is where tropicals really stop growing. I’ve never been that far south in Volusia County, but it seems pretty believable.

Edited September 3, 2021 by RedRabbit

[Eric in Orlando]

9 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

@Eric in Orlando would you mind giving us an ID for these?

I think these are Ficus aurea, and @Jimbean thinks they’re F microcarpa.

I think there are a couple factors with why tropicals appear to more or less drop off at Cape Canaveral. 
1. It is a particularly good microclimate since it’s way out in the Atlantic.

2. The transition zone on the east coast is less observable than the west coast. There’s a big difference between the climate in NSB and Cocoa Beach. It looks overly abrupt because the transition zone is around NASA so we can’t really observe it. On the west coast you can see the changes more gradually since the land is privately owned. On the west coast Clearwater Beach is about like Cocoa Beach and New Port Richey is roughly the same as NSB. Communities in between, like Dunedin, don’t really have an east coast equivalent for their climate. 
For what it’s worth, I’ve read the Turtlemound area of NSB is where tropicals really stop growing. I’ve never been that far south in Volusia County, but it seems pretty believable.

 

 

They are both Ficus microcarpa, Laurel Fig.

 

 

[RedRabbit]

14 minutes ago, Eric in Orlando said:

 

 

They are both Ficus microcarpa, Laurel Fig.

 

 

Well shoot, that’s a little disappointing. I was hoping F aurea was growing wild there rather than an invasive species. Good call @Jimbean.

Thanks for the IDs Eric! 

[Eric in Orlando]

Theres probably Ficus aurea around. I have been finding a few F. aurea sproutung in trees here at Leu Gardens. But lots of F. microcarpa too.

[palmsOrl]

Eric, I was actually just going to ask you if you knew how to contact whoever is in charge of maintaining and updating the Atlas of FL Vascular Plants, as my neighborhood has a long-standing reproductive population of Ficus aurea, including a very large pre-1989 specimen and at least 50 small plants growing epiphytically in the local Sabal palmettos that were planted.  I have also noted an individual growing in the dividing point of a large Quercus Virginia, the only time I have ever noted the former species growing in the latter.

Therefore, I feel the map should be updated to reflect this species' presence in both Orange and Seminole Counties, as the location in question straddles the two Counties.  The name of the apartment complex is Cambridge Commons.

-Michael

[Zoltan]

Yes that map is like heaven . I love it 

Im sure im in 9b ish insted of 9a 

[Jimbean]

I've noticed that people get emotionally invested in what they think their usda zone is lol

 

It's like emotional grandeur applied to climate

[palmsOrl]

On 9/4/2021 at 6:58 AM, palmsOrl said:

Eric, I was actually just going to ask you if you knew how to contact whoever is in charge of maintaining and updating the Atlas of FL Vascular Plants, as my neighborhood has a long-standing reproductive population of Ficus aurea, including a very large pre-1989 specimen and at least 50 small plants growing epiphytically in the local Sabal palmettos that were planted.  I have also noted an individual growing in the dividing point of a large Quercus Virginia, the only time I have ever noted the former species growing in the latter.

Therefore, I feel the map should be updated to reflect this species' presence in both Orange and Seminole Counties, as the location in question straddles the two Counties.  The name of the apartment complex is Cambridge Commons.

-Michael

Here is a photo of the large Ficus aurea in my apartment complex, Carrington Park (Cambridge Commons is where I lived previously and I always get them mixed up).

 

[Jimbean]

21 hours ago, palmsOrl said:

Here is a photo of the large Ficus aurea in my apartment complex, Carrington Park (Cambridge Commons is where I lived previously and I always get them mixed up).

 

That's actually quite impressive for the Orlando area.  It would be rare to see a Ficus aurea that size west of I-95 north of Fort Peirce.  IMO it is a good indicator of warm 9B

[ruskinPalms]

On 9/16/2021 at 9:31 PM, Jimbean said:

I've noticed that people get emotionally invested in what they think their usda zone is lol

 

It's like emotional grandeur applied to climate

Yes. For sure I used to get more wrapped up in this. Now I just look around and see what is growing and growing well. Really the proof is in the pudding so the saying goes.  You’re not going to see a lot of healthy crownshafted palms or larger ficus trees in 9B. If you’re truly averaging somewhere around 27F each year, some years warmer, some years cooler, you just aren’t going to see many, if any crownshafted palms at large size, fruiting or not looking like crap. Sure, some can take 27F even 26F every few years or so, but most years better not see those temps. Even a 9B area averaging 29F is going to be questionable. That means temps frequently below 29F occur which is going to be too damaging for long term crownshafted palms in my opinion. It hasn’t frozen in my area since Jan 2018 and had not for at least 3 prior years prior to that which is when I moved here. Most years have averaged comfortably above 32F. I’ll just stick to what I have said a couple times. If you see ficus trees growing naturally near you, then you can try out zone 10A rated palms. 

[ruskinPalms]

Maybe we could use indicator plants instead of weather stations to make a map? Not sure how to do that though, maybe a group effort for data collection in our local areas. My kids broke my weather station recently and I’m happy not to replace it. Too much stressing about temps over the years. Nice to just let it go and see what makes it long term and go from there. I do still look at temps online and stuff and I am very interested in the weather, but, for me at least, it has been better to just let it go as far as my little yard goes 

[ruskinPalms]

I think drawing the “ficus line” would be pretty easy to do for the most part. Then maybe the next warmer line could be the “trunking, fruiting, 15 year old plus coconut line”. Thoughts?

[Jimbean]

15 hours ago, ruskinPalms said:

Yes. For sure I used to get more wrapped up in this. Now I just look around and see what is growing and growing well. Really the proof is in the pudding so the saying goes.  You’re not going to see a lot of healthy crownshafted palms or larger ficus trees in 9B. If you’re truly averaging somewhere around 27F each year, some years warmer, some years cooler, you just aren’t going to see many, if any crownshafted palms at large size, fruiting or not looking like crap. Sure, some can take 27F even 26F every few years or so, but most years better not see those temps. Even a 9B area averaging 29F is going to be questionable. That means temps frequently below 29F occur which is going to be too damaging for long term crownshafted palms in my opinion. It hasn’t frozen in my area since Jan 2018 and had not for at least 3 prior years prior to that which is when I moved here. Most years have averaged comfortably above 32F. I’ll just stick to what I have said a couple times. If you see ficus trees growing naturally near you, then you can try out zone 10A rated palms. 

Well I define zones differently but what I deem zone 9B in Brevard you'll see fruiting coconuts, large ficus threes (and I mean larger than live oaks) and tons of mature crownshaft palms.

[palmsOrl]

On 9/19/2021 at 1:00 PM, palmsOrl said:

Here is a photo of the large Ficus aurea in my apartment complex, Carrington Park (Cambridge Commons is where I lived previously and I always get them mixed up).

 

A photo of the whole tree.  I may have mentioned this before, but an interesting little factoid about this tree (species).  It went briefly deciduous in late winter and we didn't have a freeze here, so the leaves didn't freeze off or anything.

[palmsOrl]

One of the many palms in the neighborhood with Ficus aurea growing on them.  There is even a live oak with one growing in it.  Seminole and Orange Counties have Ficus aurea native and the species should by vouchered as being present in these Counties.

-Loke

[RedRabbit]

On 9/21/2021 at 6:39 PM, ruskinPalms said:

Maybe we could use indicator plants instead of weather stations to make a map? Not sure how to do that though, maybe a group effort for data collection in our local areas. My kids broke my weather station recently and I’m happy not to replace it. Too much stressing about temps over the years. Nice to just let it go and see what makes it long term and go from there. I do still look at temps online and stuff and I am very interested in the weather, but, for me at least, it has been better to just let it go as far as my little yard goes 

On 9/21/2021 at 6:49 PM, ruskinPalms said:

I think drawing the “ficus line” would be pretty easy to do for the most part. Then maybe the next warmer line could be the “trunking, fruiting, 15 year old plus coconut line”. Thoughts?

I like this idea for a number of reasons. Horticultural barometers I go off of are ficus aurea (or microcarpa since I proved here I can’t tell them apart), pre-2010 royals, pre-2010 coconuts, pre-1980s royals, and pre-1980s coconuts. If I lived further north I might include queens or Washingtonia… The only way to draw this map is first-hand knowledge of the area though so I could do on for Tampa Bay pretty easy, but there may be some important nuances in places like New Smyrna Beach that I won’t be knowledgeable of.

On 9/22/2021 at 9:18 AM, palmsOrl said:

A photo of the whole tree.  I may have mentioned this before, but an interesting little factoid about this tree (species).  It went briefly deciduous in late winter and we didn't have a freeze here, so the leaves didn't freeze off or anything.

I’ve been skeptical Orlando is really 10a, but you’re starting to persuade me!

Edited September 24, 2021 by RedRabbit