Does Anyone Know What Variety of Mediterranean Fan Pamm This Is?

[PalmTreeDude]

Does anyone know what variety of Mediterranean Fan Palm this is? Does it have a certine variety or are only certain ones recognized as a certain variety? Does anyone know where mine may have ancestors from (Like West/East Mediterranean etc.)? I know I need to weed around it again (center trunk has always been dead and I have not protected this last winter at all expecting it to die, but it survived, I was going to replace it with something else) and I will mulch.  

[PalmTreeDude]

Oops, typo in the title... I was using my phone and did not notice it. 

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

The regular green kind. 

[mdsonofthesouth]

On 10/13/2018, 3:49:35, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

The regular green kind. 

 

This.

 

Mine saw 15f its first winter and sub 15f its second winter but didnt 90% defoliate til it went below 10f where it almost mimics livostona chinensis with trunk/bud hardiness. In our climate they will fill out by mid to late summer if they fully or near fully defoliate.

[Laaz]

On 10/13/2018, 3:49:35, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

The regular green kind. 

[Pal Meir]

Most likely it will be the clustering type:

But if you are lucky it could be the (almost) non-clustering arborescent var.:

[Cikas]

That is a regular green form from Southern Europe. 

[Advective]

On 10/15/2018, 2:55:56, Pal Meir said:

Most likely it will be the clustering type:

But if you are lucky it could be the (almost) non-clustering arborescent var.:

Does the single stem form come true from seed or is it completely random?

[Cikas]

34 minutes ago, Advective said:

Does the single stem form come true from seed or is it completely random?

If both parents are single form, yes. 

[mdsonofthesouth]

Never knew there was a non succor form of chamaerops humilis. Mine has put off 3 or 4 succors in the 2 years I have had it in the ground.

[Pal Meir]

My Chamaerops hum. var. arborescens had only one tiny sucker (I didn’t remove any suckers; both palms above were grown up from seed by myself):

[mdsonofthesouth]

Is there a hardiness difference between the "standard" chamaerops humilis and the single trunking variation?

[Laaz]

You can keep them single by removing the suckers. After a while they rarely produce any more suckers.

[Pal Meir]

19 minutes ago, mdsonofthesouth said:

Is there a hardiness difference between the "standard" chamaerops humilis and the single trunking variation?

I don’t think so, but I don’t know. The single stem var. arborescens was also used as streetside tree in Rome (at least up to the 1980s).

Here a test of its cold hardiness when it was 25 years old:

[Cikas]

2 hours ago, mdsonofthesouth said:

Is there a hardiness difference between the "standard" chamaerops humilis and the single trunking variation?

Hardiness is the same, I think. 

[mdsonofthesouth]

Might have to look into one for my new section of garden now!

[Laaz]

If your lows are correct " LOWS 16/17 12F, 17/18 3F  " it won't survive.

[mdsonofthesouth]

16 hours ago, Laaz said:

If your lows are correct " LOWS 16/17 12F, 17/18 3F  " it won't survive.

 

My current chamaerops humilis saw single digits for extended periods (8 to 9f for several hours) this past winter and was rough but bounced back. I have hope!

Edited October 18, 2018 by mdsonofthesouth

[jimmyt]

I have had a standard single trunk green form in the ground for nearly 10 years.  It saw low of 8 F for extended period last winter with only leaf burn.  No protection.  It took a lickin' and has kept on tickin'.  Close to 4 ft tall trunk crown now.

jimmyt

[mdsonofthesouth]

2 hours ago, jimmyt said:

I have had a standard single trunk green form in the ground for nearly 10 years.  It saw low of 8 F for extended period last winter with only leaf burn.  No protection.  It took a lickin' and has kept on tickin'.  Close to 4 ft tall trunk crown now.

jimmyt

 

Here is mine after probably a longer episode (being in the DMV and all) of those temps. I cut about 1/2 to 1 inch off the trunks and they pushed out inflorecense and new growth, but almost completely defoliated and 2 trunks spear pulled. All in all an exceptionally cold and record setting winter for us so if it can take that I dont fear for this palm during normal winters and will just be careful every 10+ years we get a super cold spell like 2017/18. 

 

I dont want to say its hardier than folks claim, but I feel as thouhgg its one tough little plant! and I feel as though its everybit of a 7b/8a with good sitting and good genetics if cared for. Mine has TERRIBLE sitting but gets lots of TLC and protection on record events, but saw COLD temps its first and second winters and came through. First winter it was nearly unscathed despite seeing 15F only a few months after being planted in late August/early September. One of my favorite plants for sure!

Edited October 18, 2018 by mdsonofthesouth

[Flow]

Here is mine. It is green but it has red flower pouches which is normally a trait of var. argentea (cerifera), so there could be some mingling of genes. It is a strong grower and currently around 2m tall.

Our absolute lows are not dangerous but the long-lasting subzero temperatures are.  I left the two small suckers unprotected and they defoliated completely. The absolute low was only -11C but we saw many days in a row with negative temps.

Edited October 20, 2018 by Flow

[mdsonofthesouth]

1 hour ago, Flow said:

Here is mine. It is green but it has red flower pouches which is normally a trait of var. argentea (cerifera), so there could be some mingling of genes. It is a strong grower and currently around 2m tall.

Our absolute lows are not dangerous but the long-lasting subzero temperatures are.  I left the two small suckers unprotected and they defoliated completely. The absolute low was only -11C but we saw many days in a row with negative temps.

 

Funny you say that as my smallest succors were what survived the winter event. When I'm back home I'll show the current state as they bounce back nicely!

[mdsonofthesouth]

Here is mine after like 90 to 95% defoliation and some spear pull last winter. Dont mind the weeds they spring up so fast and often I can never get ahead of them...

[Flow]

On 2018-10-20 22:53:04, mdsonofthesouth said:

 

Funny you say that as my smallest succors were what survived the winter event. When I'm back home I'll show the current state as they bounce back nicely!

They do bounce back well but perhaps more so where you live. I protect the main trunk because our summers are often too short and too cool to ensure proper recovery.

[NC_Palms]

On 10/21/2018, 4:52:30, mdsonofthesouth said:

Here is mine after like 90 to 95% defoliation and some spear pull last winter. Dont mind the weeds they spring up so fast and often I can never get ahead of them...

1

Your garden looks very subtropical. I love that Livistona!

[mdsonofthesouth]

18 hours ago, Flow said:

They do bounce back well but perhaps more so where you live. I protect the main trunk because our summers are often too short and too cool to ensure proper recovery.

 

Ahh yeah we have a decently long growing season with more heat than we know what to do with.

 

 

Edited October 23, 2018 by mdsonofthesouth

[mdsonofthesouth]

1 minute ago, NC_Palms said:

Your garden looks very subtropical. I love that Livistona!

 

Thanks! The livistona is a perennial for all intents and purposes, but is too slow for my liking. 

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Volcano are less hardy than the green form.  The actual real Moroccan silver meds are by far the hardiest.  Most of the silver meds sold in the US appear to be silver versions of the European med, not the Atlas mountain form. It took a while for me to realize the difference and now it is very noticeable; especially during cold winters.  The Atlas mountain form never burned at 8F this year while everything else defoliated.

[mdsonofthesouth]

32 minutes ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Volcano are less hardy than the green form.  The actual real Moroccan silver meds are by far the hardiest.  Most of the silver meds sold in the US appear to be silver versions of the European med, not the Atlas mountain form. It took a while for me to realize the difference and now it is very noticeable; especially during cold winters.  The Atlas mountain form never burned at 8F this year while everything else defoliated.

 

Do you sell the Atlas or Euro version? Just wondering what to plan for this up coming winter for the one I got from you. 

Edited October 27, 2018 by mdsonofthesouth

[Flow]

3 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Volcano are less hardy than the green form.  The actual real Moroccan silver meds are by far the hardiest.  Most of the silver meds sold in the US appear to be silver versions of the European med, not the Atlas mountain form. It took a while for me to realize the difference and now it is very noticeable; especially during cold winters.  The Atlas mountain form never burned at 8F this year while everything else defoliated.

Do you have any pictures of that European silver version? I have never heard of it. But I agree, var. argentea (cerifera) is the most coldhardy form.

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

I only sell atlas ones now. i have sold the other silver meds in the past. 

[Henoh]

22 hours ago, Flow said:

Do you have any pictures of that European silver version? I have never heard of it. But I agree, var. argentea (cerifera) is the most coldhardy form.

Hi Florian, it’s natural variation of Chamaerops humilis var. humilis population. Photos is from location near Cartagena in Spain. Photo credit go to forum member on Spanish forum https://repoblacionautoctona.mforos.mobi/1970525/11280009-palmito-chamaerops-humilis/?pag=3 Tetraclinis_CT. Also, in North Africa exist transitional form between var. argentea (mostly inland mountain habitats) and var. humilis (mostly costal habitats) where both varietis is native. 

Edited October 28, 2018 by Henoh

[Henoh]

In cultivation. First two photos are from Paris botanical gardens. Photo credit to Igor Juran member of Croatian palm forum Palmapedia. 

[Henoh]

Another two photos are from Poreč. Photo credit to Igor Hoegler, also member of Croatian palm forum Palmapedia.

Edited October 28, 2018 by Henoh

[Henoh]

@Phoenikakias have this variety of Chamaerops humilis var. humilis in his garden. He donated seeds from his specimen to European palm society under the name “glauca form”.

[Phoenikakias]

11 hours ago, Henoh said:

@Phoenikakias have this variety of Chamaerops humilis var. humilis in his garden. He donated seeds from his specimen to European palm society under the name “glauca form”.

Also in PalmTalk. It's a cracker, maybe the most beautiful form, second only to some 'lisa' forms. I will post current pictures tonight. It gets attacked unfortunately by Paysandisia, while the real cerifera shows up to now some sort of immunity. Maybe it is because of the low size of latter which deters the moth from laying eggs on its fronds. I do not know if cerifera will remain clean, when (and if ever) it will reach the size of glauca. 

There is certainly much confusion about the identity of the silver formS available in the market. Some growers testify that their 'cerifera' is prone to bud rot in cool and moist conditions, others demonstrate  'cerifera' specimens growing tall at an incredible speed, while some specimens have a tendency to remain solitary. Anyway mine is desperately slow with deeply bilobed leaf segments and produces offshoots like crazy, it serves obviously in its habitat as a very low lying shrub. 

And last but not least, a guy has posted in this forum a video from the natural habitat(s?) of cerifera, where there were clearly visible several variations. I think I have noticed also a tall specimen with YELLOW spines.

[Phoenikakias]

13 hours ago, Henoh said:

Hi Florian, it’s natural variation of Chamaerops humilis var. humilis population. Photos is from location near Cartagena in Spain. Photo credit go to forum member on Spanish forum https://repoblacionautoctona.mforos.mobi/1970525/11280009-palmito-chamaerops-humilis/?pag=3 Tetraclinis_CT. Also, in North Africa exist transitional form between var. argentea (mostly inland mountain habitats) and var. humilis (mostly costal habitats) where both varietis is native. 

 

 

 

Very interestingly, I think I have observed in the suggested link two variations of the spanish bluish Chamaerops. The one in mainland is called by the author "cerasifera" (if this term can have any meaning) and the other in Mallorca (a single specimen?) is called by the same just "palmito azulado". Mine is very similar to latter, while I can not oversee some similarity in the leaf architecture between the former and the african cerifera.

[Flow]

15 hours ago, Henoh said:

Another two photos are from Poreč. Photo credit to Igor Hoegler, also member of Croatian palm forum Palmapedia.

Thanks so much for the photos, Henoh!

[Phoenikakias]

6 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

Also in PalmTalk. It's a cracker, maybe the most beautiful form, second only to some 'lisa' forms. I will post current pictures tonight. It gets attacked unfortunately by Paysandisia, while the real cerifera shows up to now some sort of immunity. Maybe it is because of the low size of latter which deters the moth from laying eggs on its fronds. I do not know if cerifera will remain clean, when (and if ever) it will reach the size of glauca. 

There is certainly much confusion about the identity of the silver formS available in the market. Some growers testify that their 'cerifera' is prone to bud rot in cool and moist conditions, others demonstrate  'cerifera' specimens growing tall at an incredible speed, while some specimens have a tendency to remain solitary. Anyway mine is desperately slow with deeply bilobed leaf segments and produces offshoots like crazy, it serves obviously in its habitat as a very low lying shrub. 

And last but not least, a guy has posted in this forum a video from the natural habitat(s?) of cerifera, where there were clearly visible several variations. I think I have noticed also a tall specimen with YELLOW spines.

Here's mine. 

Edited October 29, 2018 by Phoenikakias

[Henoh]

It’s very nice form. I have offsprings from your specimen but they are still very small.