On developing a cold-tolerant Coconut palm

December 12, 2017

2 hours ago, CLINODAVE said:

Someone mentioned north-central India coconuts as being particularly hardy. While I doubt that we have any such variants here in Hawaii, it sounds like these types might be a good candidate for higher-elevation sites on the Big Island and Maui. I Googled North India coconut growing yesterday and was amazed at the regions in India where these trees are commercially cultivated. They include many areas where the winter max/min temps are routinely in the 70s/50s and where low temp records are as low as the upper 30s. The pictures available on-line suggest that these coconuts aren't just surviving but appear thriving.

That is my "average" winter climate, i.e., Dec./Jan. predictions routinely 70s/50s with occasional forays to 60s/40s (like the past several days) and infrequent drops to low 40s or upper 30s. Winter is dry season, so no rain and daily sunshine even on chilly days. Cold fronts pass and everything goes swimmingly until another arctic front. Coconuts, esp. large ones, can deal with such interludes if those are short although they may suffer foliar burn as lows approach low 40s. At the upper 30s coconuts become very unhappy and express their misery with much greater foliar damage. But if the cold is short lived, maybe a couple hours around dawn, followed by a temp rebound after sunrise, they will still recover as long as the cold doesn't linger. When spring heat returns they quickly outgrow winter damage.

But occasionally a one off arctic front blasts the whole State (think 1989, 2010) and drops even SFL to freezing and below (I've seen 29F and 28.5F) and those freezing temps last for hours and hours. An unprotected coconut is almost surely doomed without protection and supplemental heat. It's happened before and will surely happen again. That's why mainland FL is considered subtropical, not truly tropical. So, are those Indian coconuts "exceptional"? Not really.

December 12, 2017

I think the Indian coconuts may not be subjected to the Florida subfreezing temps you mentioned, although climate info on their regions of cultivation suggests that it historically has gotten close to freezing in some areas. I haven't been to these areas but I imagined that their proximity to the Himalayas and colder continental air masses in general would mean they had to regularly tolerate some cool temps. OTOH, it appears that it warms dramatically during the day in these areas and that may keep them happy. For the original poster in Hawaii Ocean View Estates, it is unfortunate that the only coconuts here are probably lowland Pacific island types. I have always thought the state should try to increase the genetic diversity of our coconut population. If for no other reason than to have potential survivors in the event of lethal yellowing or similar disease arriving in the islands.

December 12, 2017

He may also have the problem that his mountain high location never gets truly warm enough for coconuts to thrive. They need loooooonnnnnngggg periods of high heat, also sun. Cool or tepid does not cut it with them. Cloud forest rain and fog for days on end does not cut it either. One hot, sunny day every week or two - forget it. Only when you beg for shade, a/c and ice water are they in palm heaven. A HI PTer once posted that coconuts in HI will not flower or set fruit above 1000' altitude. They may survive a bit higher but are as good as sterile. This is a most particular palm that cannot be "bred" or "trained" to bow to human will.

December 12, 2017

5 hours ago, CLINODAVE said:

I Googled North India coconut growing yesterday and was amazed at the regions in India where these trees are commercially cultivated. They include many areas where the winter max/min temps are routinely in the 70s/50s and where low temp records are as low as the upper 30s.

Dave - I was unaware of that. That is what my climate is at 2200 ft. elevation in Kona - except I rarely ever get into even the high 40s. I would love to get my hands on some of those coconuts. But I have no idea how to go about it.

December 12, 2017

1 hour ago, Dypsisdean said:

Dave - I was unaware of that. That is what my climate is at 2200 ft. elevation in Kona - except I rarely ever get into even the high 40s. I would love to get my hands on some of those coconuts. But I have no idea how to go about it.

From my not-too-intensive research, it does appear that commercial growers in India kinda push production as far north as they can. I agree with Meg that heat is essential; much of East HI is so mild that you don't have to get too much elevation b4 coconuts clearly look unhappy. I suppose that could change if the climate does indeed warm, altho the past week sure hasn't felt that way. I, too, would love to see trials of those Indian coconuts here. Our state strictly regulates the import of palm germplasm, but perhaps an entity like Floribunda Palms could shed more light on that.

December 13, 2017

I would have not imagined Hawaii coconuts would not fruit above 1000 ft (300 m). It seems weird that I have witnessed mature coconuts on Madeira island and although this particular zone 12 is very warm (for Madeira Standards anyway), probably around 21 C (70 F) high and 14.5 C (58 F) low during the coldest month, I am sure it is cooler than Hawaii at 1000 ft(300 m). I also know of a coconut there growing just fine at 200 m (656 f). Could there be something else here affecting their ability to flower other than temperatures?

December 13, 2017

9 hours ago, Cluster said:

I would have not imagined Hawaii coconuts would not fruit above 1000 ft (300 m). It seems weird that I have witnessed mature coconuts on Madeira island and although this particular zone 12 is very warm (for Madeira Standards anyway), probably around 21 C (70 F) high and 14.5 C (58 F) low during the coldest month, I am sure it is cooler than Hawaii at 1000 ft(300 m). I also know of a coconut there growing just fine at 200 m (656 f). Could there be something else here affecting their ability to flower other than temperatures?

Cluster - to be clear - you said "mature coconuts" - does this mean fruiting??? Also, I can't say for sure (I'll have to pay closer attention), but I think I have seen fruiting cocos, here on the Kona side of the Big Island, closer to 1500 ft. Certainly I have seen mature trunking cocos near 1500ft.

And to note: I can (at 2200ft) "grow" a coconut. But it is slow, and would never fruit. But why? It would be like growing a Washingtonia in California - they are everywhere. And there are thousands of other exceptional choices that are right at home.

December 13, 2017

Coconuts can be seen growing just below the Himalayas in the lower elevations of Nepal.

December 14, 2017

14 hours ago, Dypsisdean said:

Cluster - to be clear - you said "mature coconuts" - does this mean fruiting??? Also, I can't say for sure (I'll have to pay closer attention), but I think I have seen fruiting cocos, here on the Kona side of the Big Island, closer to 1500 ft. Certainly I have seen mature trunking cocos near 1500ft.

And to note: I can (at 2200ft) "grow" a coconut. But it is slow, and would never fruit. But why? It would be like growing a Washingtonia in California - they are everywhere. And there are thousands of other exceptional choices that are right at home.

Hello Dean,

For some reason I mistook 2000 ft for 1000 ft:( Anyway the coco I know that has mature coconut fruits is around 100 ft (30 m), the one growing at 656 ft (200 m) is a healthy young coco, I am not sure if will fruit or not regardless of the elevation since it might be a tall and there are no cocos around it.

How are the temperatures at 2200ft in Hawaii in the coldest month? I think I would always have a coconut in my garden if I could (my favorite palm and I love coconut water/fruit), would plant rare palms as well:) but that is besides the point.

December 14, 2017

Coconuts grow everywhere here. However those nestled on little rock islands and coral ground do not produce good nuts and those at higher elevations do not fruit at all.

Why push the window to only achieve a poor quality result. They are what they are.

January 20, 2018

I won't be able to physically make it to my garden until February 3rd, but from pics that I've gotten from my family since the 30˚ cold snap, it seems like there are some winners and losers as far as hardiness goes. Nothing is dead from the cold snap (I would need temps colder than 27-28˚ to really get some good data), but I'll write up a cold damage report when I make it back to the garden in a few weeks.

January 27, 2018

After letting things settle a bit for the damage to show, it looks like I have some interesting findings. The Weather Underground station near my house had 3.5 hours below freezing with an absolute low of 28.7˚ F. I initially thought it was 30˚ F, but the data seems to show that it was colder than I thought. Before posting pics I'll say my findings (which are easier to see in person): The Jamaican tall coconut I got from Kopsick showed the least damage. Jamaican tall types from more tropical areas (Big Pine Key and Dominican Republic) didn't do any better.

Red Spicata dwarf:

Panama tall:

F₃ Maypan from Selby Gardens:

Orange Hawaiian tall:

Kopsick Jamaican tall:

Green Hawaiian Tall:

Fiji dwarf:

Criollo Tall:

Jamaican tall from Big Pine Key:

Tahiti Red Dwarf:

Overall view (kind of a sad sight to see):

January 27, 2018

@Zeeth, thanks for posting those! Looks like the next Jamaican Tall I get will have to be from Kopsick.

January 27, 2018

Thanks Keith, sorry to see all that damage. Based on the pictures it doesn't look like there's really much difference. I was hoping there would be at least one variation with an edge, but even the Kopsick coconut looks pretty rough.

January 27, 2018

1 hour ago, RedRabbit said:

Thanks Keith, sorry to see all that damage. Based on the pictures it doesn't look like there's really much difference. I was hoping there would be at least one variation with an edge, but even the Kopsick coconut looks pretty rough.

I consider my coconut palms to be an experiment on cold tolerances, so any damage is a learning opportunity rather than a sad day. I knew when planting the coconuts that they were temporary (it's at my parents house and I had no say in where they moved), so I'm not too worried. It's a bit hard to see in the pics, but there are notable differences if you look closely. The Kopsick coconut is about 70% damaged (with green leaves in the center), whereas the Criollo tall is closer to 90% damaged. If you look at my post on Beccariophoenix fenestralis on the freeze damage subforum, you can see that it has about the same extent of damage as my Kopsick coconut.

None of the coconuts are damaged to the extent that I wouldn't expect them to survive, so they should continue to give me good data on variance in cold tolerance, especially when we have an even colder freeze in the future. So far though, from what I've seen, I'll grow mainly Jamaican talls from sourced Kopsick or Anna Maria Island when starting a new garden. I've also learned that I definitely want a few B. alfredii in any future garden as well, because all of mine were completely unharmed this winter.

January 27, 2018

50 minutes ago, Zeeth said:

I consider my coconut palms to be an experiment on cold tolerances, so any damage is a learning opportunity rather than a sad day. I knew when planting the coconuts that they were temporary (it's at my parents house and I had no say in where they moved), so I'm not too worried. It's a bit hard to see in the pics, but there are notable differences if you look closely. The Kopsick coconut is about 70% damaged (with green leaves in the center), whereas the Criollo tall is closer to 90% damaged. If you look at my post on Beccariophoenix fenestralis on the freeze damage subforum, you can see that it has about the same extent of damage as my Kopsick coconut.

None of the coconuts are damaged to the extent that I wouldn't expect them to survive, so they should continue to give me good data on variance in cold tolerance, especially when we have an even colder freeze in the future. So far though, from what I've seen, I'll grow mainly Jamaican talls from sourced Kopsick or Anna Maria Island when starting a new garden. I've also learned that I definitely want a few B. alfredii in any future garden as well, because all of mine were completely unharmed this winter.

Wow Keith, reminds me when I lived in St Pete. I had a low of 32 and had damage but nothing like you had. Most of my coconuts have a bit of damage but most are 90%-98% green still. My maypans did the best with very little damage. My red spicatas also have very little damage. Believe it or not some of my green Malayans show the most damage. My D. lutescens showed more damage than anything else. But this is the first time since I moved to Cape Coral (2014) that I have seen damage in my garden due to a freeze. And no surprise my P. pacifica's really got burnt. The last couple weeks my Veitchia winin is really showing damage to 50% of its fronds.

Maypan

Yellow Mayalan and red spicata

Green malayan

Red spicata

Edited January 27, 2018 by Palmaceae

January 27, 2018

And my Fiji dwarf have just minor damage.

January 27, 2018

43 minutes ago, Palmaceae said:

And my Fiji dwarf have just minor damage.

I had heard reports on PT about Fiji dwarf being particularly cold sensitive, which is something that I did not notice during this freeze. I'm donating mine to Kopsick this Spring to see how it'll grow over there (along with one or two from Chapman field once I get them to 7 gallons), but I feel like it wouldn't be a bad variety to grow in Central Florida due to the ability to protect it long-term due to it's short stature.

January 27, 2018

1 hour ago, Zeeth said:

I consider my coconut palms to be an experiment on cold tolerances, so any damage is a learning opportunity rather than a sad day. I knew when planting the coconuts that they were temporary (it's at my parents house and I had no say in where they moved), so I'm not too worried. It's a bit hard to see in the pics, but there are notable differences if you look closely. The Kopsick coconut is about 70% damaged (with green leaves in the center), whereas the Criollo tall is closer to 90% damaged. If you look at my post on Beccariophoenix fenestralis on the freeze damage subforum, you can see that it has about the same extent of damage as my Kopsick coconut.

None of the coconuts are damaged to the extent that I wouldn't expect them to survive, so they should continue to give me good data on variance in cold tolerance, especially when we have an even colder freeze in the future. So far though, from what I've seen, I'll grow mainly Jamaican talls from sourced Kopsick or Anna Maria Island when starting a new garden. I've also learned that I definitely want a few B. alfredii in any future garden as well, because all of mine were completely unharmed this winter.

Thanks for conducting these experiments. I'm with you on B. alfredii, mine barely had any damage at all. I've got to say it is my favorite palm I own at this point.

January 27, 2018

Keith, keep us posted on how those coconuts do in the coming months. I hope they all survive but I've had delayed cold damage show up weeks or months later. Nothing is so maddening than to have a cold-damaged palm resume growing only to drop dead 6 months after.

January 28, 2018

5 minutes ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Keith, keep us posted on how those coconuts do in the coming months. I hope they all survive but I've had delayed cold damage show up weeks or months later. Nothing is so maddening than to have a cold-damaged palm resume growing only to drop dead 6 months after.

Will do! Hopefully they all survive, but any deaths will be reported for cold tolerance info.

January 31, 2018

To answer the question about the most cold hardy variety, I think it would be a toss up between the Indian Tall from Northern India and the Nepal area and the tall variety from South Central Coastal China, with the Indian Tall probably being slightly more cold hardy. I seen to recall reading somewhere years ago that the Indian Tall from Northern India and Nepal that grows in the foothills of the Himilayas is exposed to periodic temps in the 26F to 28F range, which is why I think healthy well established ones with some size to them would be hardy down to 25F and would probably be able to take extended chilly and damp conditions better than most other varieties.

The next variety for cold hardiness would probably be the pure Mexican Tall from the Matamoros area southward along the Gulf Coast of Mexico. I estimate the cold hardiness of these when they are healthy and well established to be approximately 26F, as there are some nice healthy mature ones in Brownsville that are about 40ft. to 45ft. tall in overall height with nuts on them that have made it through some pretty bad winters over the last 15 + years, including snow twice over that time frame. The next variety would probably be toss up between the Jamaican Tall and the Green Variety of Hawaiian Tall, with the Jamaican Tall being slightly more cold hardy, probably hardy down to 27F for a healthy well established one. The Green Variety of Hawaiian Tall may have a pretty good degree of chill tolerance too, as I think it can be grown successfully at higher chillier elevations in Hawaii than can the Golden or Orange Variety of Hawaiian Tall. Speaking of successfully growing Coconut Palms to maturity with even some nuts on them, I have a friend that used to live near Guadalajara, Mexico for a while, which is at a fairly high elevation and routinely gets down into the 40'sF, maybe even into the upper 30'sF several times each winter, and he said he saw mature Coconut Palms with small to medium sized nuts on them at an elevation, as I recall of 4,000ft. to 5,000ft.! They are probably Pacific Talls. The next variety for cold hardiness would probably be the Panama Tall or Maypan hybrid.

As far as the Malayan Dwarfs are concerned, the Green Malayan Dwarf is the most cold hardy variety. I have a trunking one with 1.5ft. of woody trunk that has survived a total of 8 freezes over that last year (2 freezes of 27.1F and 28.5F last Jan. and 31.9F, 32.3F, 29.9F, 28.1F, 29.9F, 29.9F this winter). If I had to guess, I have probably had a total of about 24 to 30 hours below freezing this winter in my yard, and numerous nights in the mid to upper 30'SF and low 40'sF, and yet mine is still alive an growing, though seriously injured. I even have a small Green Malayan about 4ft. tall in overall height that is still alive and has a new spear opening, though this palm is injured too. I also have a 4.5ft. tall in overall height in ground Golden Malayan Dwarf that is amazingly about 50% Green with a pretty healthy new spear still growing. All of these were only protected with old towels wrapped around the trunks, and my big Green Malayan I wrapped it with small incandescent Christmas lights this winter with the help of my wife and then wrapped a couple of old sheets around the trunk and lower crown over the Christmas lights. These lights are so small though, that they barely gave off any heat, but may have helped a little. I also have a Maymex hybrid in ground in my backyard that is about 5.5ft tall in overall height that is my most injured of all my in ground Coconut Palms, and I also wrapped the trunk of it with old towels too. It is about 95% freeze injured, but even it has a little green left on the lower parts of the petioles, so it may have about a 25% to 30% chance of survival. Anyway, the cold hardiness for Malayans is: Green (most), Golden (next), and Yellow (least), with the Green being hardy down to between 27F and 28F, the Golden being hardy down to about 28F, and the Yellow being hardy down to about 29F all of course for ones that are healthy and well established. I have a small Fiji Dwarf in a 10 gal. pot that I will try to find a place for it when it is bigger (probably plant it when it is about 7ft. or 8ft. tall in overall height). I have heard conflicting things about them. I have heard that they are the least cold hardy of all Coconut Palms (but 100% resistant to Lethal Yellowing in preliminary trials in Florida). But based on what I have heard from about 3 sources in Central and South Florida, it may be more cold hardy than originally thought. I received mine from someone who lives around Pine Island in Southwest Florida, and he said his and the others in his area came through the 2010 freezes better than a lot of other varieties. So, we will see. I will try to post some photos of my in ground ones later today.

John

January 31, 2018

Well said John!

Even though I only hit 31-32 this past freeze for a very short time, it was a weird freeze. I always knew the Green Malayan is one of the hardiest Malayans, but the couple I have in the most protected areas had more damage than my Yellow Malayan and they are only a few feet from each other. My palms did not have much damage but it is there, but I was surprised how well my Yellow Malayan as it has very little damage compared to the 2 Green Malayans next to it. I had a Yellow Malayan when I lived in St Pete in the 80's and it always got hit harder than my other coconut species and I eventually lost it, along with my other coconut palms .And I as mentioned before my Fiji Dwarf did great, almost no damage! Even my 2 Jamaican Talls had more damage then my Yellow Malayan, and one is right next to it. My Red Spicata's did great also, very little damage.

February 2, 2018

On ‎1‎/‎31‎/‎2018‎ ‎9‎:‎16‎:‎34‎, Palmaceae said:

Well said John!

Even though I only hit 31-32 this past freeze for a very short time, it was a weird freeze. I always knew the Green Malayan is one of the hardiest Malayans, but the couple I have in the most protected areas had more damage than my Yellow Malayan and they are only a few feet from each other. My palms did not have much damage but it is there, but I was surprised how well my Yellow Malayan as it has very little damage compared to the 2 Green Malayans next to it. I had a Yellow Malayan when I lived in St Pete in the 80's and it always got hit harder than my other coconut species and I eventually lost it, along with my other coconut palms .And I as mentioned before my Fiji Dwarf did great, almost no damage! Even my 2 Jamaican Talls had more damage then my Yellow Malayan, and one is right next to it. My Red Spicata's did great also, very little damage.

Hey Randy,

Interesting how normally less cold hardy Malayans faired a little better this winter. I am still shocked at how well my little Golden Malayan did compared to a slightly bigger and slightly older Maymex hybrid I have that I sprouted from a beach nut did (it is almost totally fried)! It also did a little better than a little Green Malayan I have that is about the same age and size. I will be posting photos of mine shortly. I really wish I could successfully grow the Yellow Malayan here. I think it is a strikingly beautiful variety with its bright yellow petioles and nuts, but the only part of Texas, where I think they could be successfully grown and produce nuts would be in Port Isabel and South Padre Island (normally borderline 10B Climate), as opposed to my very low end 10A Climate (by the skin of my teeth), and the normally 10A Climate of most of the RGV to my south.

John

February 2, 2018

Here are some photo updates of the current condition of my in ground Coconut Palms after experiencing a 3" snowstorm and 6 freezes this winter, with the lowest low being 28.1F, and a total of probably about 30 - 35 hours below freezing, along with numerous nights in the 30'sF and low 40'sF. The only protection my palms had was their trunks being wrapped with old towels (only on freezing and near freezing nights), and in the case of my big Green Malayan Dwarf, the trunk being wrapped in small incandescent Christmas lights, then wrapped with a couple of old sheets over the lights. Full extent of freeze injury in the more cold sensitive tropical palms can take weeks or even months to show up, usually with the onset of continual warmer weather. These photos were taken the last couple of days of Jan. 2018.

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February 2, 2018

Image may contain: plant, tree, sky, outdoor and nature

February 2, 2018