On developing a cold-tolerant Coconut palm

[Cubbie Boy]

This is my first post in this forum, and no, I haven't learned all the rules, so I hope this is OK to post here.

My main interest in joining this forum is to learn more about the development of cold-tolerant coconut palms. And I don't even know if there is such a development, though I think that there should be. I find it hard to accept that there will never be such a thing.

1. Why could there not be a cold-tolerant coconut, developed by natural selection? That is, growing the most successful, northern coconut palms, and propagating them, and bringing the progeny ever northward.

2. What is so different about Cocos nucifera, that it can never hybridize with a cold-tolerant species?

3. Could a relatively cold-tolerant lookalike species, such as Syagrus psuedococcos, be bred to have larger and larger fruits?

[PalmatierMeg]

I believe there have been a number of discussions on development of more more cold tolerant or even cool tolerant Cocos nucifera and even some attempts to breed or hybridize such palms. To my knowledge so far no one has had reliable, reproducible success and the coconut remains the holy grail of palm growers outside the tropics or near tropics. It makes no more sense for people outside the tropics to expect coconut palms to adapt to their climates via natural selection than for me to expect a Norway spruce to adapt to my sweltering climate in SWFL. People who really want to grow coconuts have to bite the bullet and move to a climate that favors them. I, on the other hand, have no desire to grow Norway spruce.

Welcome to PalmTalk. Hope to continue to contribute.

[Xerarch]

I think for the natural selection process to work you would have to have some kind of cold tolerance genes in there to begin with that you could select for.  They could be brought to the surface over many generations by exposing many of them to cold and then breeding the ones that survive etc. One has to question though, that if that would work, why didn’t that already happen in the wild in the higher latitude portions of their range? I suppose that (in my non-expert opinion) the answer is that this is a truly tropical species and just doesn’t have any cold tolerance genes to draw from or this would have happened forever ago naturally. 

As to why the coconut won’t hybridized with its closely related cocoids, I don’t have the expertise to give a detailed answer but I can assure you that many have tried to do just that and without confirmed success. 

Having said all that, there are several people in this forum, Mr. Coconut palm comes to mind first and foremost, that have spoken at length that there are some varieties of coconut that, while not exactly cold hardy, are at least more cool/cold tolerant than others. Specifically the Mexican tall and Indian tall varieties are said to tolerate cooler conditions better. 

I don’t know about trying get larger fruits off of a closely related palm, that is an interesting idea. I hope this has been of some use to you. Welcome to the forum!

[lahuasteca]

I'm not Mr. Coconut Palm, but live close by (Lower Rio Grande Valley of Texas) so have experience dealing with the same climate stress as he does.  Right now in Brownsville, TX, latitude 26⁰ N., is about 45⁰ F. and raining, expecting 35⁰ F., tonite - not really ideal conditions for growing coconut palms.  I hauled in 12 in containers from my yard to the garage, as I can't risk the root damage.  They are all Malayan dwarfs - very cold sensitive.  Having just said that - there are lots of tall hardy Mexican Talls, fruit bearing, growing around town, that have endured all sorts of winter cold spells.  One can buy sprouted nuts across the river in the market in Matamoros, Tamps., Mex.  But trying to bring one across the border you'll be right up there with Chapo Guzman and Pablo Escobar in terms of heinous crimes.  Or you can drive out to Boca Chica (southernmost beach in Texas) and collect the ones that wash onshore.

Another alternative is Beccariophoenix (sp.?) alfredii - looks almost identical to a coconut, about as hardy as a royal palm, and grows just about as talll.  In the LRGV the royals seem to grow quite well in Brownsville and McAllen without any special protection.  Where the coconut become unhappy at about 40⁰ F, I'd say the threshold for the royal and the beccariophoenix is 30⁰ F.  Others will quote lower temperatures but I'm erring on the side of being safe.

 

[Dypsisdean]

I think Xerarch has given a pretty good answer/explanation. And you could carry that on to any fruit/plant in cultivation. For example, an orange, or avocado that could tolerate another five degrees of cold would save countless orchards in present locations from periodic freeze damage, and allow cultivation into many more temperate areas of the U.S. and the world.

Such an advancement or discovery would be incredibly lucrative - and I'm sure there have been many farmers, scientists, and corporations that have wished they could make it happen. But the cold hardiness of oranges and avocados has remained much the same since they have been in cultivation.

If the genes are not there to begin with, there is nothing to breed for. You would have to depend on random mutations and tens of millions of years - that is how normal natural selection works. And there may be other genes or traits present that could be at conflict with any such cold hardy chemistry - so it could never happen.

And another thought - Even if the cold hardiness puzzle was solved, there may be other pathogens present in colder climates that a coconut has no natural defenses against. So it could survive the cold, but succumb to a fungus/insect not present in tropical climates.

[kinzyjr]

Below is just my $0.02 on the matter.

I would have to think that the best you're going to get as a starting point are the progeny of coconuts that have been in south Florida since European settlers first discovered it, or the Jamaican Talls at Kopsick (St. Petersburg, FL), or some similar situation near where they reach their limits.  There were rumored to be some coconuts in Clearwater and Cocoa Beach that survived some really bad freezes, but I think they are in the mulch pile at this point.  If the coconuts that were brought to Florida during the Age of Exploration produced plants that survived events like the 1899 freeze, and then their great-great grandchildren survived the 198x freezes, that would give you as cold hardy a coconut as you're going to get without some one-in-ten-billion mutation mentioned by @Dypsisdean

I have four on my property.  My area is a little colder most times that St. Pete or even Tampa, so this weekend I will likely have to cover them to ensure they survive.  I have a Malayan, a Maypan, and two Jamaican Talls.  It's rumored that the Jamaican Talls are the most cold tolerant, but that hasn't been confirmed to my knowledge.  @Zeeth has way more experience and expertise, so if he wants to chime in...

It's like they say in bodybuilding in regard to genetics; sometimes you can't build a house because you don't have the raw materials... you may have to settle for a well-structured cabin.

[Xenon]

Genetically modified coconuts? 

[Brad Mondel]

Some have tried crossing Cocos with one of its closest relatives Butia which is extremenly cold hardy but I don’t believe it worked, there are no confirmed hybrids that I know of. 

[Zeeth]

10 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

Below is just my $0.02 on the matter.

I would have to think that the best you're going to get as a starting point are the progeny of coconuts that have been in south Florida since European settlers first discovered it, or the Jamaican Talls at Kopsick (St. Petersburg, FL), or some similar situation near where they reach their limits.  There were rumored to be some coconuts in Clearwater and Cocoa Beach that survived some really bad freezes, but I think they are in the mulch pile at this point.  If the coconuts that were brought to Florida during the Age of Exploration produced plants that survived events like the 1899 freeze, and then their great-great grandchildren survived the 198x freezes, that would give you as cold hardy a coconut as you're going to get without some one-in-ten-billion mutation mentioned by @Dypsisdean

I have four on my property.  My area is a little colder most times that St. Pete or even Tampa, so this weekend I will likely have to cover them to ensure they survive.  I have a Malayan, a Maypan, and two Jamaican Talls.  It's rumored that the Jamaican Talls are the most cold tolerant, but that hasn't been confirmed to my knowledge.  @Zeeth has way more experience and expertise, so if he wants to chime in...

It's like they say in bodybuilding in regard to genetics; sometimes you can't build a house because you don't have the raw materials... you may have to settle for a well-structured cabin.

I've got a bunch of coconuts that I'm trying in Palmetto, which usually has good coconut growing weather, but with random freezes like 2010 that are less than ideal. I've got Jamaican talls from all over - one from Kopsick, one from a very old one on Anna Maria Island (developers have since bulldozed the parent, but it predated the freezes of the 80's), a few from Big Pine Key and two from the Dominican Republic. I've also got two types of Hawaiian tall - the orange type with round coconuts that was domesticated for coconut water and the green type with long coconuts that was domesticated for fiber. I've got 2 offspring from some Maypans growing wild in the mangroves at Selby. The parent trees were likely the progeny from their main Maypans that were planted in the early 80's and survived the freezes of the 80's. I've got a Nawassi tall from the old one at Fairchild planted in the 1920's, as well as a Red Spicata dwarf from a tree at Fairchild planted in the 50's. I've also got a Panama Tall from Dave Romney. I also have two dwarf types: a Fiji Dwarf and a Tahiti Red Dwarf. 

My original plan was to find out if any of the easily accessible varieties of coconut were hardy enough to survive the occasional freeze like we had in 2010 with temps around 27˚. I had a couple of my coconuts in 2010 and the Jamaican tall and green Hawaiian tall survived the freeze without much damage, but they were protected from frost. Since I started planting all of the palms in the ground, my garden hasn't seen a bad freeze yet, so I can't say which variety is hardier than the others, but I feel that I'll get some good data once the next freeze does come. The idea of crossing the hardiest of the coconuts afterwards and seeing how the seedlings fare isn't absurd, but it would take a very long time to produce something as hardy as a Royal, for instance.

[Bill H2DB]

  How about using CRISPR  ?   

 

[Palm Tree Jim]

Some very well thought out comments above.

Perhaps in time, someone will figure something out.

 

[redant]

The one palm I have that I believe is a Jamaican tall survived 2010 no problem while most all the other coconuts around it died. This one is finally fruiting and have germinated many for future use.  I also have extra nuts if anyone want's to sprout one, local pickup only sorry.  They are huge coconuts.

As for B. alfredii, they are wonderful palms but soooooooooooooooooooooooooo much slower then coconuts. I'm sure the nursery industry in this area would have a hard time making money on this one. Takes years to get minimal trunk.

[Bill H2DB]

  This is some CRISPR info , which is way out of my pay grade , but ........

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0734975014001931

 

 

[lahuasteca]

1 hour ago, redant said:

As for B. alfredii, they are wonderful palms but soooooooooooooooooooooooooo much slower then coconuts. I'm sure the nursery industry in this area would have a hard time making money on this one. Takes years to get minimal trunk.

That's perfect for me here in Brownsville, Texas.  We had a dusting of snow this morning!  Yesterday I hauled in 12 Malayan dwarf coconuts that I had in containers, had planned to plant them in Feb.  But I may go with the alredii (have order some sprouted seeds from Calif.).  It will take a long time for the trunks to get too big to wrap in case of a freeze.

[topwater]

30 minutes ago, lahuasteca said:

That's perfect for me here in Brownsville, Texas.  We had a dusting of snow this morning!  Yesterday I hauled in 12 Malayan dwarf coconuts that I had in containers, had planned to plant them in Feb.  But I may go with the alredii (have order some sprouted seeds from Calif.).  It will take a long time for the trunks to get too big to wrap in case of a freeze.

I have a small herd of alfies in two quart pots that sailed thru 28F plus 30mph winds w/o a blemish last winter, I was so sick with the flu I didn’t even bother to move them out of the elements. I’m betting you will have zero colds issues with them in the RGV. 

[Zeeth]

2 hours ago, Bill H2DB said:

  This is some CRISPR info , which is way out of my pay grade , but ........

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0734975014001931

There is work being done with identifying the genes in Elaeis associated with cold tolerance of in China. Presumably CRISPR could be a useful tool in this regard, and the coconut is genetically similar enough to Elaeis (and they're both important crop plants in Asia) that there might be some cross-over with the current research. It's probably a few decades from any plants in collector hands, but it doesn't seem outside of the realm of possibility.

https://bmcplantbiol.biomedcentral.com/track/pdf/10.1186/s12870-014-0384-2?site=http://bmcplantbiol.biomedcentral.com

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0114482&type=printable

[Cubbie Boy]

Thanks to everyone for your responses. I believe people when they say that it is unlikely that Cocos nucifera has any cold-tolerant genes in it, but I hold out hope because as a newbie, I don't know what I don't know. I doubt that Luther Burbank ever worked on coconut palms, but other than using gene modification, I think that his techniques would be the most likely way to produce a cold-tolerant coconut.

And beyond merely trying to grow mass quantities of multiple, natural varieties of any given species in a given location, I think that a scientific approach to the internal chemistry of Cocos nucifera would be helpful too. I mean, what EXACTLY happens to a coconut palm when it gets too cold? If you could find out specific chemical or cellular changes brought on by cold, you could perhaps create a remedy for that specific problem. I did see a website that said that coconuts that receive proper fertilization are more cold-tolerant than those that  don't.

I'm not comfortable with gene modification, because I don't know what the long-term effects of playing God are. But yes, coconut palms have apparently already been modified. I read that they are doing that or trying to do it in The Philippines, not for cold-tolerance, but for some other effect.

Where I live, coconut palms are a no go. Sure, I live in Hawaii, but at 3,000 feet, and the nearest fruiting coconut tree is 1,500 to 2,000 feet below. There are just a few, yellowy, ragged strugglers, in my area that will amount to nothing. It was 48 degrees farenheit at 4a.m. at my house this morning.

In my yard, I have a date palm seedling that is about a year old, and is struggling, despite rich soil and regular water. Maybe it's because I let the tomatoes grow around and over it.

[PalmatierMeg]

I'm not being sarcastic but you'll have more reliable and timely success with coconut palms if you moved to a lower elevation or you bought a second property at a lower elevation to set up as your personal coconut grove. As you are already in HI you have that option that people in other coconut-hostile climates do not.

[kinzyjr]

@Cubbie Boy Regarding coconut palms and fertilization, any plant that is in good health will be more resilient to hostile conditions than one in poor health.  That being said, the fertilizer thing can work against you if you're not careful.  In your climate, I doubt you hit freezing.  In my case, we may hit freezing tomorrow night.  If I had fertilized my palms during the warm stretch leading up to this cold burst, it might cause my plants to accelerate into active growth, making them more susceptible to cold rather than less.

For your date palm, it definitely wants more sun and potentially better drainage from the sounds of it.  I have a bunch that I grew from Medjool seed.  You can check them out here:

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/52296-palms-and-others-of-interest/

Give it some space and it will take off when the roots hit groundwater.

 

[topwater]

On 12/7/2017, 4:27:08, PalmatierMeg said:

It makes no more sense for people outside the tropics to expect coconut palms to adapt to their climates via natural selection than for me to expect a Norway spruce to adapt to my sweltering climate in SWFL. 

2 hours ago, Cubbie Boy said:

Thanks to everyone for your responses. I believe people when they say that it is unlikely that Cocos nucifera has any cold-tolerant genes in it. 

 

Evolution isn’t the unmasking of pre-existing genes, it’s the spontaneous mutation of the genome into a phenotype that differs from the parent, in this case Cocos undergoing mutations that would allow it to survive cooler temps.  Like Meg said, it’s just as likely for Norcal Redwoods to adapt and take over San Diego as it would be for coconuts to march into New York City from Florida.  Not that it will never happen, but without man made intervention in terms of selective breeding or genetic engineering, we won’t see it.  

[Dave-Vero]

A good deal is now known about the origin and genetic diversity of coconut palms.  They're strictly tropical.  I doubt that I see any near relatives to make hardier hybrids.  Maybe Beccariophoenix?  

 

[Yunder Wækraus]

15 hours ago, topwater said:

Evolution isn’t the unmasking of pre-existing genes, it’s the spontaneous mutation of the genome into a phenotype that differs from the parent, in this case Cocos undergoing mutations that would allow it to survive cooler temps.  Like Meg said, it’s just as likely for Norcal Redwoods to adapt and take over San Diego as it would be for coconuts to march into New York City from Florida.  Not that it will never happen, but without man made intervention in terms of selective breeding or genetic engineering, we won’t see it.  

It's both, actually, and much more! Great swathes of time combined with geographic isolation of populations my produce cold-hardy variants, but, as has been said, there is no reason to assume this will happen. We know this because only a tiny fraction of the tropical plant and animal genera of this earth have cold-hardy representatives. Indeed, changes in climate in the direction of more cold generally just kill everything off (hence the complete lack of tropical flora and fauna in modern Wyoming). I'm sure someone could quantify what percentage of generally tropical life forms successfully produce cold-hardy representatives, but my guesstimate is 1-5% MAX! Let's look at the American South for a good example of a largely mild climate that has just enough terrible freezes to make it very hard for tropical species to survive long term. Of all the tropical genera which typify the adjacent Neotropical realm, some only have single representatives north of Southern Florida. Examples include the green anole (compare the single native anole species found across the South to the multiple anole species which often share small islands in the tropics), the coral bean (a tiny representative of the Coral trees found throughout the tropics), the Carolina parakeet (now extinct), the sabal palm, and the manatee. If we look at these examples, we can discern a trend: such species are often slow growing, less able to compete with other species or change, or marginal in their habitat. After millions of years, the Florida population of manatees still cannot survive without springs with 70F+ water. If springs were 69F, all manatees in Florida would die. Green anoles show amazing cold-hardy abilities for what is fundamentally a tropical lizard family, but they really don't thrive outside of the mildest parts of the South, and when confronted with similarly sized anoles from the tropics (e.g. the brown anole), they cannot compete. The coral bean can handle brutal cold, but it is tiny--the Southern US has no native coral tree that even approaches the title of "tree"! And it's a slow grower. The famous sabal palm of Florida and adjacent coasts is incredibly tolerant of cold for a larger palm, but even it is virtually absent from inland locations at latitudes lower than San Diego. And it grows SLOW.

So, yes, a coconut *could* randomly mutate a cold-tolerant gene, but this is not guaranteed and there is no reason to think it will ever happen. One could subject hundreds of thousands of coconuts to random freezes in a controlled environment in the hopes of producing a truly cold-hardy variety, but I suspect the result would be 100% mortality trial after trial. Now, it's also commonly the case that species retain genes from more ancient periods of different selective pressures. These are ancient mutations, and if they are still distributed in the population, the above hypothetical cold testing would likely bring that gene or genes to the fore. And that is how evolution works: living things reproduce or they don't; those that do pass on their DNA; those that don't reproduce don't pass on their DNA. Mutations must not negatively select for reproduction--they needn't make a positive contribution! (This is why humans--uniquely--cannot make their own vitamin C.) If a mutation does give an advantage, it will be passed on. But, again, even mutations which don't (or no longer) give an advantage will be passed on so long as they cause no disadvantage.

[kurt decker]

Depends what you mean by cold hardy. There are genetic differences in coconut for sure. In 2010 I had about 200 coconuts from Jamaica, both maypan and green malayan planted in my fields and about 200 green malayans from Costa Rica. Back to back tough winters that year killed 95% of the Costa Rican plants, and badly injured the others, while the Jamaican plants had basically no damage at all. 

[Anamurlu]

nice

[Zeeth]

19 hours ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

It's both, actually, and much more! Great swathes of time combined with geographic isolation of populations my produce cold-hardy variants, but, as has been said, there is no reason to assume this will happen. We know this because only a tiny fraction of the tropical plant and animal genera of this earth have cold-hardy representatives. Indeed, changes in climate in the direction of more cold generally just kill everything off (hence the complete lack of tropical flora and fauna in modern Wyoming). I'm sure someone could quantify what percentage of generally tropical life forms successfully produce cold-hardy representatives, but my guesstimate is 1-5% MAX! Let's look at the American South for a good example of a largely mild climate that has just enough terrible freezes to make it very hard for tropical species to survive long term. Of all the tropical genera which typify the adjacent Neotropical realm, some only have single representatives north of Southern Florida. Examples include the green anole (compare the single native anole species found across the South to the multiple anole species which often share small islands in the tropics), the coral bean (a tiny representative of the Coral trees found throughout the tropics), the Carolina parakeet (now extinct), the sabal palm, and the manatee. If we look at these examples, we can discern a trend: such species are often slow growing, less able to compete with other species or change, or marginal in their habitat. After millions of years, the Florida population of manatees still cannot survive without springs with 70F+ water. If springs were 69F, all manatees in Florida would die. Green anoles show amazing cold-hardy abilities for what is fundamentally a tropical lizard family, but they really don't thrive outside of the mildest parts of the South, and when confronted with similarly sized anoles from the tropics (e.g. the brown anole), they cannot compete. The coral bean can handle brutal cold, but it is tiny--the Southern US has no native coral tree that even approaches the title of "tree"! And it's a slow grower. The famous sabal palm of Florida and adjacent coasts is incredibly tolerant of cold for a larger palm, but even it is virtually absent from inland locations at latitudes lower than San Diego. And it grows SLOW.

So, yes, a coconut *could* randomly mutate a cold-tolerant gene, but this is not guaranteed and there is no reason to think it will ever happen. One could subject hundreds of thousands of coconuts to random freezes in a controlled environment in the hopes of producing a truly cold-hardy variety, but I suspect the result would be 100% mortality trial after trial. Now, it's also commonly the case that species retain genes from more ancient periods of different selective pressures. These are ancient mutations, and if they are still distributed in the population, the above hypothetical cold testing would likely bring that gene or genes to the fore. And that is how evolution works: living things reproduce or they don't; those that do pass on their DNA; those that don't reproduce don't pass on their DNA. Mutations must not negatively select for reproduction--they needn't make a positive contribution! (This is why humans--uniquely--cannot make their own vitamin C.) If a mutation does give an advantage, it will be passed on. But, again, even mutations which don't (or no longer) give an advantage will be passed on so long as they cause no disadvantage.

Interesting discussion! Some other tropical groups to add to that list:

Asimina triloba, a fruit in the tropical Annonaceae family found throughout the eastern US. This one is interesting because it actually does better in cold environments than tropical ones.

Epidendrum magnoliae, an orchid native to the southeast which might be one of the hardiest epiphytic orchid species out there.

Encyclia tampensis, another epiphytic orchid found in Florida that is cold hardy and actually looks good.

The American, which is found in much colder environments than the American crocodile. 

 

A similar thing seen in the US with these tropical species can be found in China as well. Interestingly, the coconut has existed in southern China for a while (Hainan Island, for example), but the species never really made it north of the tropical belt over there on it's own either.

[lahuasteca]

13 hours ago, kurt decker said:

Depends what you mean by cold hardy. There are genetic differences in coconut for sure. In 2010 I had about 200 coconuts from Jamaica, both maypan and green malayan planted in my fields and about 200 green malayans from Costa Rica. Back to back tough winters that year killed 95% of the Costa Rican plants, and badly injured the others, while the Jamaican plants had basically no damage at all. 

Interesting.  So which coconuts do I plant in terms of cold tolerance?  I'm in Brownsville, Texas, same latitude as Ft. Myers.  This week we had a light dusting of snow - temps. bottomed out at 34⁰ F.  So far, my bananas, some of them fruiting, show no burn marks or yellowing.  Here's my coconut inventory - 2 in 5 gallon containers - green Malayans, certified from Puerto Rico origin, certified by FL Dept. of Ag.   I also have 10 Malayans, gold, green, and yellow, undetermined origin from Florida seed nuts (a fruit stand in Miami).  Two are quite large now, I have them in 7 gallon containers.  Some were sprouted when they arrived, others I sprouted.

Obviously my my concern is cold tolerance.  Need your advice.  Long-term, I have some Beccariophoenix  alfredii sprouted seeds on order.  They seem to be as hardy as the Royals which grow well here unprotected - that's my long term solution for the front yard.

Edited December 10, 2017 by lahuasteca

[kinzyjr]

@lahuasteca 2 types you could try are Jamaican Tall and Panama Tall.  I have a green Malayan, but can't attest much to its cold hardiness since the lowest it has seen unprotected is 37F.

[Yunder Wækraus]

3 hours ago, Zeeth said:

Interesting discussion! Some other tropical groups to add to that list:

Asimina triloba, a fruit in the tropical Annonaceae family found throughout the eastern US. This one is interesting because it actually does better in cold environments than tropical ones.

Epidendrum magnoliae, an orchid native to the southeast which might be one of the hardiest epiphytic orchid species out there.

Encyclia tampensis, another epiphytic orchid found in Florida that is cold hardy and actually looks good.

The American, which is found in much colder environments than the American crocodile. 

 

A similar thing seen in the US with these tropical species can be found in China as well. Interestingly, the coconut has existed in southern China for a while (Hainan Island, for example), but the species never really made it north of the tropical belt over there on it's own either.

Alligators (two species: American and Chinese) are actually the opposite of tropical recruits: they are relictual megafauna from the ancient subtropics (along with giant salamanders, cypress trees, etc.). They were never tropical. Indeed, the tropics are the ancient and modern barrier in Alligator distributions. (There's a reason why gators in the Everglades look sickly compared to those in Central FL, where many of the largest specimens have been found.) But I agree with your examples: the exceptions prove the rule, and tropical flora and fauna genera very rarely ever evolve a freeze-hardy species. (The case of crocodiles and caiman is damning: more than 50 million years to evolve a competitor to subtropical alligators and not one species of croc or caiman can survive north of Miami!) I agree, freeze-hardy coconuts would have evolved in the old world were that to have been in the cards.

[PalmTreeDude]

If someone genetically modified coconuts to be cold hardy they would probably end up being commercially grown in places like South Carolina and Georgia. 

Edited December 11, 2017 by PalmTreeDude

[CroToni]

12 hours ago, lahuasteca said:

Interesting.  So which coconuts do I plant in terms of cold tolerance?  I'm in Brownsville, Texas, same latitude as Ft. Myers.  This week we had a light dusting of snow - temps. bottomed out at 34⁰ F.  So far, my bananas, some of them fruiting, show no burn marks or yellowing.  Here's my coconut inventory - 2 in 5 gallon containers - green Malayans, certified from Puerto Rico origin, certified by FL Dept. of Ag.   I also have 10 Malayans, gold, green, and yellow, undetermined origin from Florida seed nuts (a fruit stand in Miami).  Two are quite large now, I have them in 7 gallon containers.  Some were sprouted when they arrived, others I sprouted.

Obviously my my concern is cold tolerance.  Need your advice.  Long-term, I have some Beccariophoenix  alfredii sprouted seeds on order.  They seem to be as hardy as the Royals which grow well here unprotected - that's my long term solution for the front yard.

As far as I know as long as you are worrying about frost in december you can not really grow cocos,but give it a try plant against a south wall,close to a pool if u have one,protect it heavily.Good luck.

[Bill H2DB]

Hope springs eternal .

Apparently , you can indeed  " make a silk purse out of a sows ear " .

https://www.reference.com/beauty-fashion/saying-can-t-make-silk-purse-out-sow-s-ear-mean-39fd36dd0d17b000

 

 

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

7 hours ago, CroToni said:

As far as I know as long as you are worrying about frost in december you can not really grow cocos,but give it a try plant against a south wall,close to a pool if u have one,protect it heavily.Good luck.

This was a very rare event and only the third time in recorded history that measurable snow fall was recorded in his area. (1899, 2004). 

[Dypsisdean]

And to throw a damp towel on the hopes/dreams of gene modification/splicing after simply locating a plant's "hardy gene(s)" - the rice plant has close to 45,000 genes. Why some plants tolerate cold and even snow, while some plants can't even tolerate cool weather, is a complex study. So it is possible (and I'm guessing probable) that it is the combination of hundreds if not thousand of these genes interacting with one another - determining cellular biochemistry and cell structure - that determines the tolerance of a plant to cool/cold/frost/sub-zero.

Think of a recipe with 45,000 ingredients. And just a little too much salt or chili pepper could ruin the whole dish.

[CroToni]

16 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

This was a very rare event and only the third time in recorded history that measurable snow fall was recorded in his area. (1899, 2004). 

ohh,that is another story.I tought he got snow this year.

[CroToni]

I just wanted to say that I saw a coconut seedling in Palermo,Sicily.They planted it in the ground between a south wall and the pool.It survived the winter,but when I came next summer it was just a stick with a green spear and they pulled it out because it looked bad.Very sad I know.The lowest low that winter was 6 degrees(celsius),highest high was 26 degrees(celsius).

[Cluster]

If it was a coco it would definitely die in Palermo.  

[CroToni]

36 minutes ago, Cluster said:

If it was a coco it would definitely die in Palermo.  

On most winters,but Palermo is often warmer than Los Angeles.Also there are reports of them growing on the south side of the island and on lampedusa(with minimal success,obviously).

[Cluster]

Without proof of long term success I am septic. I am not saying they can't survive some warm winters but long term? Lampedusa is quite warmer than Palermo, I still doubt it long term in Lampedusa without any protection. It is just too cold, 2 months below 16 C (max) and and 3 below 17, just does not seem to have it, not to mention an unusual cold winter. 

Edited December 12, 2017 by Cluster

[Xerarch]

Eeeewww

[CLINODAVE]

Someone mentioned north-central India coconuts as being particularly hardy.  While I doubt that we have any such variants here in Hawaii, it sounds like these types might be a good candidate for higher-elevation sites on the Big Island and Maui.  I Googled North India coconut growing yesterday and was amazed at the regions in India where these trees are commercially cultivated.  They include many areas where the winter max/min temps are routinely in the 70s/50s and where low temp records are as low as the upper 30s.  The pictures available on-line suggest that these coconuts aren't just surviving but appear thriving.