Copernicia alba

[annafl]

Eleven years ago I was even more clueless about palms, except after seeing a few photos I knew I wanted a Copernicia hospita.  Well, I bought this one in a three gallon container and it took more than a year to realize I had a Copernicia alba.  I've still loved the thing and it has responded accordingly.  This little palm is beautiful to my eye and the highlight of my garden in this little area.  Not rare, but it can be pretty and eye-catching too.  Please show yours too.  Thanks!

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

I'm a big fan of C.Alba myself. 

[Josh-O]

Great job on Growing that tree Anna. I would love to have a specimen that perfect in my garden.

[Palmə häl′ik]

Here's mine:

[annafl]

6 hours ago, Josh-O said:

Great job on Growing that tree Anna. I would love to have a specimen that perfect in my garden.

Thanks so much, Josh.  You've got quite a few different perfect specimens of your own!

[annafl]

5 hours ago, Palmə häl′ik said:

Here's mine:

A beautiful example, Ray!  You live an hour or so from me.  What a great little Palm for our area.  I don't know why we don't see more of these around.  There is a city street in Saraota that has about a dozen of them in a row, but they look awful.  Obviously not taken care of in the least.  Too bad, because they give this Palm a bad rep.  They are such pretty little things.

 

[Palmə häl′ik]

Thanks Anna.  I know of two local nurseries with C.Alba's around me...   I think we'll start seeing more and more in the near future...   I noticed that they're field growing them tho....   I wonder if that's a good idea?   I know how Copernicias's are somewhat root sensitive and all....

[smithgn]

14 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

I'm a big fan of C.Alba myself. 

Are they hardy where you are? I would contribute some pictures, as I have 2 C. Albas, but they're in pots. Not so cool. I had a dream that one day, once they're big enough, to put them in ground and see what they can take. Unfortunately, even 8B is optimistic. How cold tolerant are they compared to CIDP's?

[edbrown_III]

I have them in  9A 

[annafl]

13 hours ago, Palmə häl′ik said:

Thanks Anna.  I know of two local nurseries with C.Alba's around me...   I think we'll start seeing more and more in the near future...   I noticed that they're field growing them tho....   I wonder if that's a good idea?   I know how Copernicias's are somewhat root sensitive and all....

Wow, I've never seen them up our way, but that's encouraging.  I don't know how they transplant- mine was purchased in a pot and adapted quite easily without incident.

 

8 hours ago, smithgn said:

Are they hardy where you are? I would contribute some pictures, as I have 2 C. Albas, but they're in pots. Not so cool. I had a dream that one day, once they're big enough, to put them in ground and see what they can take. Unfortunately, even 8B is optimistic. How cold tolerant are they compared to CIDP's?

I think they can take to low 20's at best.  9a for sure, but it may be worth trying in 8b in a protected microclimate?  Not sure.

 

57 minutes ago, edbrown_III said:

I have them in  9A 

Wow, beautiful, Ed.  And in Jacksonville, 9a.  That's encouraging.  Definitely should be grown more, IMHO.  They are beautiful to my eye.

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

I have one that has 3' of trunk in the ground but i wrapped it this year. I tested a few small plants outdide though but I won't have results for a few months.  

[edbrown_III]

I actually think they look better when they are younger ----- the boots are on and it gives such a geometrica appeal to the trunk symmetry

 

 

[annafl]

5 hours ago, edbrown_III said:

I actually think they look better when they are younger ----- the boots are on and it gives such a geometrica appeal to the trunk symmetry

 

 

Yes, I really love the texture the boots give.

[Eric in Orlando]

I wish this palm would get used more in central and south FL. I see nurseries field growing them but they haven't made it out into plantings like Livistona decora and L. nitida. This is a great palm. Disney has used some in the Magic Kingdom in the landscape by The Little Mermaid ride.

 

 

[annafl]

4 hours ago, Eric in Orlando said:

I wish this palm would get used more in central and south FL. I see nurseries field growing them but they haven't made it out into plantings like Livistona decora and L. nitida. This is a great palm. Disney has used some in the Magic Kingdom in the landscape by The Little Mermaid ride.

 

 

I don't understand it either, Eric.  Could it be they're just more costly than alternatives?  It can't be that they're more difficult to grow.  Maybe they're not as available in bulk either?  I don't know.

[annafl]

22 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

I have one that has 3' of trunk in the ground but i wrapped it this year. I tested a few small plants outdide though but I won't have results for a few months.  

Joseph are you in zone 8a or 8b?  Is it in a protected spot?  

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

The plant is in 8B(just barely although the USDA interactive site officially calls me 14.6F) and on the south side of a brick wall; basically the warmest spot that I have.  I recorded a low of 17 this year and 14 in 2011 on the weather station 150' away from this spot in the middle of the back yard.  All of the other years we briefly hit 18-19 for an hour in the morning but last year our winter low was 28.  I'm almost positive the area where the Alba is located never dropped below 16-17 degrees in 2011 or much below 20 any other year.

[Eric in Orlando]

19 hours ago, annafl said:

I don't understand it either, Eric.  Could it be they're just more costly than alternatives?  It can't be that they're more difficult to grow.  Maybe they're not as available in bulk either?  I don't know.

 

I just looked in Plantfinder. They are more expensive than Washingtonia robusta. But cheaper they than Phoenix sylvestris which is getting used everywhere now. I think most landscape architects and designers are super lazy or unknowledgeable about plant diversity and use they exact same thing as everyone else.

 

 

[Mike Evans]

On 1/4/2017, 1:31:49, annafl said:

I don't understand it either, Eric.  Could it be they're just more costly than alternatives?  It can't be that they're more difficult to grow.  Maybe they're not as available in bulk either?  I don't know.

I can tell you a few reasons why you do not see them more.  First, Harry Homeowner sees the armed petioles and immediately starts complaining that their Kid and the Dog will get hurt.  I do not want that one!  Second, Eric is correct,  the so called Landscape architects.  I work with a few architect firms in the Tampa Bay area and they send their drivers out to pick comom things up.  I show them all the other tropical palms they could be using and they try to tell the guys back in the office to come out and look so they know what is out there different to use.  The guys in the office do not seem to want to leave the cozy AC surroundings, therefore keep designing with the common things they used before.  Therefore most growers do not grow them.

Here are a few in the garden that never get supplemental watering, only fert.  Note the one on the right bending out to get more Sun.  Tough, cold hardy, drought tolerant palm that is under utilized IMO. 

[Palmə häl′ik]

Could it be that they're so slow that juvenile palms may have never been introduced to the "common market"...   The "instant gratification" on these probably have just come around.....    Landscapers would want sizable material right off the getgo.  C.Alba's of decent size were probably not around until recently.  

 

 

[Alan_Tampa]

They've been around plenty long. There is one on Hillsborough Ave near town and country (tampa area) that's been there for many years. Planted at entrance at subway division. 

 

They don't seem all that slow to me. Seen them double in 2 years. 

[Palmə häl′ik]

So your telling me pretty much every nursery you'd goto 15 years ago had LARGE C.Alba's Alan?  

If you say yes, I still wouldn't believe you.

And if you don't think they're slow, you obviously haven't grown from seed.

[annafl]

On 1/4/2017, 10:08:21, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

The plant is in 8B(just barely although the USDA interactive site officially calls me 14.6F) and on the south side of a brick wall; basically the warmest spot that I have.  I recorded a low of 17 this year and 14 in 2011 on the weather station 150' away from this spot in the middle of the back yard.  All of the other years we briefly hit 18-19 for an hour in the morning but last year our winter low was 28.  I'm almost positive the area where the Alba is located never dropped below 16-17 degrees in 2011 or much below 20 any other year.

It will be interesting to see how it does over the next couple of winters.  Let us know.

[Alan_Tampa]

You are right about slow from seed, but after the first couple years, not that slow.

 

I should say that I saw them at nurseries with some frequency,  not every one, of course, but enough that with some promotion we should be seeing more bigger ones today. 

Didn't mean to seem that argumentative,  that's what I get for posting before nap time!

 

[Tampa Scott]

2002...

2017 has cleared roof of my second floor...

 

 

[Palmə häl′ik]

I honestly would've considered C.Alba to be a "rare" palm in the 70s,80s and prolly even into the 90s....   But I guess that's just me.

 

[annafl]

On 1/4/2017, 10:08:21, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

On 1/6/2017, 7:37:35, Tampa Scott said:

2002...

2017 has cleared roof of my second floor...

 

 

Yes, I don't find these to be slow at all either, Scott.  Nice one!

[Really full garden]

This is mine from the beach garden. 14 years from seed .It has about 6 feet of trunk. It is slow, but speeding up.

[Palmə häl′ik]

I agree once these trunk they speed up, but I know for a fact that these along with other Copernicas are slow as juveniles.

[annafl]

6 hours ago, scottgt said:

This is mine from the beach garden. 14 years from seed .It has about 6 feet of trunk. It is slow, but speeding up.

It's a beauty, Scott!  I love how you've trimmed up the boots- it gives it such a nice, textural look.

[Jonathan]

Bump.

Old thread, but didn’t think it's worth starting a new one to ask this question: why can't I grow this species? 

It should grow here, solid 9b climate, no real cold, but no real heat either. Livistona's are happy here, Butia a breeze...this species comes from similar climates but something seems to be missing. 

Has anyone had any luck with them in the bay area or NZ? Maybe they just need proper summer heat to get cranking.

Thoughts??

[tim_brissy_13]

13 hours ago, Jonathan said:

Bump.

Old thread, but didn’t think it's worth starting a new one to ask this question: why can't I grow this species? 

It should grow here, solid 9b climate, no real cold, but no real heat either. Livistona's are happy here, Butia a breeze...this species comes from similar climates but something seems to be missing. 

Has anyone had any luck with them in the bay area or NZ? Maybe they just need proper summer heat to get cranking.

Thoughts??

There are a couple growing ok at a collector’s garden here in Melb last I checked but as you know we’ve got a bit more summer heat here. I’ve never tried myself but might be getting some sprouts soon to trial. I did germinate a batch of C prunifera a couple of years ago. Silly me didn’t prop the seed up and bring a remote germinator the growth points were stuck way under soil level. I then also left them out unprotected over winter and within a week or so they all quickly rotted out. 
 

In future I’d treat these like the Livistona that require heat (eg alfredii). High ratio of perlite of something in the mix and protect from winter rain while young. 

[sonoranfans]

I have an alba, its an easy grow for me.  It gets water and occasional fertilizer but its not nearly as nutrient sensitive as the cuban copernicias.  No they are not fast, medium grower at best.  This one has been in the ground 14 years.  It arrived in bad shape, 2' trunk shrunken crown 4' wide with 6 leaves.  I am not surprised it is doing very well as its a Caribbean native and well that is very close to my climate.  It has been fruiting for 6-7 years.  It tends to be a pale green coming out of winter due I expect to low wax from the cool season.  It tints a bit more powder blue in the summer wet season.  

[Fusca]

It's good that you bumped this thread @Jonathan.  I was just talking with Tad Dyer yesterday about how underutilized this palm is.  Tad is a local grower who used to post here many years ago.  I'm growing both the green and blue form here (along with blue Copernicia prunifera) and grew the blue alba in zone 9a San Antonio.  Great palms!

[Jonathan]

13 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

I have an alba, its an easy grow for me.  It gets water and occasional fertilizer but its not nearly as nutrient sensitive as the cuban copernicias.  No they are not fast, medium grower at best.  This one has been in the ground 14 years.  It arrived in bad shape, 2' trunk shrunken crown 4' wide with 6 leaves.  I am not surprised it is doing very well as its a Caribbean native and well that is very close to my climate.  It has been fruiting for 6-7 years.  It tends to be a pale green coming out of winter due I expect to low wax from the cool season.  It tints a bit more powder blue in the summer wet season.  

That's a beauty!

They're actually one of the few non-Caribbean Copernicia species though....C alba is from the Chaco region of Southern Brazil/Paraguay/Northern Argentina. Similar area to a lot of Butias, hence my interest in it. I'm sure I read about or saw pics years ago of this species growing with or nearby B yatay but I haven't been able to find it again, might be dreaming maybe.

[Jonathan]

13 hours ago, tim_brissy_13 said:

There are a couple growing ok at a collector’s garden here in Melb last I checked but as you know we’ve got a bit more summer heat here. I’ve never tried myself but might be getting some sprouts soon to trial. I did germinate a batch of C prunifera a couple of years ago. Silly me didn’t prop the seed up and bring a remote germinator the growth points were stuck way under soil level. I then also left them out unprotected over winter and within a week or so they all quickly rotted out. 
 

In future I’d treat these like the Livistona that require heat (eg alfredii). High ratio of perlite of something in the mix and protect from winter rain while young. 

Tim, I germinated maybe half a dozen several years ago. I planted 3 out of which two are now no longer and one is clinging on for dear life. The reason for the bump is to help me decide the fate of the remaining three...do I grow them into much bigger plants in the greenhouse and then plant them out, or do I send a couple to some guy in Melbourne?

Basically trying to figure out if it's a climate limitation or a growing issue on my behalf. Either way, they're snails, but still great looking palms.

[Jonathan]

11 hours ago, Fusca said:

It's good that you bumped this thread @Jonathan.  I was just talking with Tad Dyer yesterday about how underutilized this palm is.  Tad is a local grower who used to post here many years ago.  I'm growing both the green and blue form here (along with blue Copernicia prunifera) and grew the blue alba in zone 9a San Antonio.  Great palms!

Totally agree! Hardly ever mentioned unfortunately. 

USDA zones are so frustrating to work around. My 9b is Howea country but I can't grow things like Bismarkia which love heat and can take a short freeze but not prolonged cool winters. Guess I'm trying to figure out which camp C alba falls into? I suspect it's the bizzy camp...

[sonoranfans]

8 hours ago, Jonathan said:

That's a beauty!

They're actually one of the few non-Caribbean Copernicia species though....C alba is from the Chaco region of Southern Brazil/Paraguay/Northern Argentina. Similar area to a lot of Butias, hence my interest in it. I'm sure I read about or saw pics years ago of this species growing with or nearby B yatay but I haven't been able to find it again, might be dreaming maybe.

My bad, I knew in the past the prunifera and alba were south american, just getting old I guess.  Mine is planted in high drainage sandy soil with some clay under at 2'.  This and perhaps bismarckia and sabal uresana are my most ignored palms, carewise.  They get little fertilizer, sometimes none, but I do have auto sprinkler heads that water 2-3x a week.  No manual watering or watering outside the irrigation system like most of my other palms.  We are right now in a severe drought since september, worst in 30 years, and I may break down and ensure it gets some water, as it is looking dried out to my eyes.  That is surely part of the reason for wax loss this year, which seems extreme in my memory.  The pop up spinklers are blocked the past few years due to big growth from my serenoa repens which are 12' tall in some places and plenty thick.  I was wondering why this palm appeared less glaucous than I remember.  Now I may have a clue.  FYI I will correct in augtust 2011 it was a freshly planted palm with about 3' trunk and not happy.  Here it is freshly planted in visibly sandy soil with some mulch on top

[Jonathan]

7 minutes ago, sonoranfans said:

My bad, I knew in the past the prunifera and alba were south american, just getting old I guess.  Mine is planted in high drainage sandy soil with some clay under at 2'.  This and perhaps bismarckia and sabal uresana are my most ignored palms, carewise.  They get little fertilizer, sometimes none, but I do have auto sprinkler heads that water 2-3x a week.  No manual watering or watering outside the irrigation system like most of my other palms.  We are right now in a severe drought since september, worst in 30 years, and I may break down and ensure it gets some water, as it is looking dried out to my eyes.  That is surely part of the reason for wax loss this year, which seems extreme in my memory.  The pop up spinklers are blocked the past few years due to big growth from my serenoa repens which are 12' tall in some places and plenty thick.  I was wondering why this palm appeared less glaucous than I remember.  Now I may have a clue.

Haha, yep it doesn't get any easier to remember the millions of things we forget everyday! 

I was just reading Eric in Orlando's freeze thread, sounds like C alba breezed through unscathed, so clearly absolute low temps are not the problem for me.

Still curious if there are any in San Francisco...anyone?

 

[tim_brissy_13]

9 hours ago, Jonathan said:

Tim, I germinated maybe half a dozen several years ago. I planted 3 out of which two are now no longer and one is clinging on for dear life. The reason for the bump is to help me decide the fate of the remaining three...do I grow them into much bigger plants in the greenhouse and then plant them out, or do I send a couple to some guy in Melbourne?

Basically trying to figure out if it's a climate limitation or a growing issue on my behalf. Either way, they're snails, but still great looking palms.

Yeah that’s the question. My gut feel is that they’re more like Bismarckia, Schippia etc where they need significant heat even though they are capable of withstanding freezes. Unfortunately as you know the USDA zones are close to useless for us, I basically ignore them. 
 

That being said, I’d recommend keeping them and giving them a go. In general for species that aren’t super rare, I think there’s more to be gained by pushing the limits than sending a few up here where they may not even thrive anyway. I also suspect they’ll be the type of palm that is hardier when it gets a bit of size as opposed to when they’re small seedlings. Coccothrinax and Schippia seem to be a bit like this for me.