Sabal Riverside

[palm tree man]

I forgot to ask has anyone looked at the three little sabal?

[Brad Mondel]

I did, but it's almost impossible to identify them when they're that young. I'm guessing they're sabal minor because of the short petioles but we'll have to wait and see.

Edited February 18, 2014 by ArchAngeL01

[palm tree man]

I think two of them are in that complex either brazoria or berminghamia but there is one the second pic if I recall that is pretty costalpalmate. It is more blue grey take a look if you get a chance. Therenis little to no minor in it. There could not be with that long mid rib.

Edited February 18, 2014 by palm tree man

[palm tree man]

All three look different on some level that is why I posted them. On a close inspection doez anyone notice a differerence between thw three. Thanks!

[palm tree man]

Sorry for the typos I was on my phone.

[ErikSJI]

I germinated a bunch of Sabal Riverside last year that were collected in California.

[palm tree man]

The riverside seed are larger like Sabal Mexicana. Thanks Erik, I wish I had that diagram seven years ago then I would not have bought the bad seed from Texas and California. Take a look at my three juvenile palms if you get a minute and tell me what you think, please. One is probably a minor hybrid. There is a mound of heavy wood chip mulch around each about 4 inches high so the petioles are longer than they appear. Hopefully one will turn out to be something different and not just another giant sabal minor.

[palm tree man]

It appears that I have some real odd ball sabals, the expert at the University of Texas has no idea what three of my four questionable specimens are. Phil from Jungle Music has personally told me that my larger palm is not a Sabal Minor thought it looks similar to one at first glance. He said that the leaves are huge and he is not sure what it is. It could be a hybrid he adds but one he as not seen yet, because it exhibits a defined, extended midrib on the leaves like a Brazoria but is still only mildly costapalmate. One juvenile has nearly palmate leaves and the University of Texas has never seen one that was palmate. I haven't either. Ours look like wimpy Sabal Palmetto seedlings really. They are diverse but how diverse can Sabal Minor really be before we start dividing it out into species. Butia Capitata is now being divided out. We once clumped them all together now matter how different they looked.

[Sabal Steve]

I germinated a bunch of Sabal Riverside last year that were collected in California.

I harvested a number of seeds from a large trunked sabal here in So. Cal. I suspected riverside - they look identical to the pic that you posted as a diagram. It had a thick trunk, but a relatively small crown in relation. Do domingensis or causarium have similarly sized/shaped seeds?

[palm tree man]

Steve to my knowledge they do. I have had seed for both in my possession that I got from RPS at least ten years ago. Some Taxonimist clump them together; I feel they are way too different on many levels to ever be considered the same. They looked identical for the most part seed wise; some were smaller and larger but in the realm of what i would say was normal diversification. Mexicana is larger "rounder" and so is Uresana. I don't really have experience with Yapa or Maur... They would probably make it here with some care but I didn't want to use them for care free foundation planting. My Causarium, Dom, and Bur.. have all been slow to set seed and they have been in the ground since somewhere around 2004 from an overgrown 2 gallon.

Edited February 21, 2014 by palm tree man

[palm tree man]

Steve the crazy thing is I made a mistake on a posting these two pics are the same palm in 2009-2010. There is allot of diversity in this one; I didn't realize it until I was disectin the pic and trying to look at the hastula and midrib on the leaves. I know they are the same tree because they are the same distance form the lake and have the same things in the back ground. It threw me for a loop really. My Burmudana is directly on the bank of the lake; I made a mistake in the post and didn't realize it until today. You can tell in the 2013 picture of the Sabal Bur... that this is true.

Edited February 21, 2014 by palm tree man

[Brad Mondel]

I don't know what to say. That sabal sure knows how to confuse everyone.

[palm tree man]

I know man it is nuts. I just thought it was a riverside with less than perfect leaves and wind exposure. We get allot of wind off of the lake. Honestly you and Axel have done a better job than the experts on trying to figure out what it really might turn out to be in the end. I really appreciate it guys. It might not be in the norm on the forum to say this buy you both have given me allot to think about and done a jam up job in helping me figure out what it might be in the end. Thank you both.

Edited February 21, 2014 by palm tree man

[palm tree man]

This is a palm that is exhibiting all sorts of genetic diversity and I am not sure if it is being caused by its environment or if it is genetic expression or adaptation. Something is going on and I can't really explain it either.

[palm tree man]

Since I am not sure what this is and allot of very well qualified people don't as well let us just call this palm Sabal "Reese" or Sable R. It is easier to describe than that palm at palm man's house or that crazy giant, minor looking palm for me anyway. Reese is my youngest daughters name and I will use this in my own mind to identify the diversity in whatever species this palm came from. I feel in possibly a few years it will grow and become more like one or the other identifiable species. Until then it has me pretty confused though.

[Brad Mondel]

Definitely keep us updated on S.Reese. I'd like to see the flowers when it blooms and a shot of the trunk sometime. Sabal minor seems to be variable depending on the location it comes from. Here the sabal minors are pretty small, but most of them are being destroyed by habitat loss/developments.

Here is a nice page on S.Minor: http://www.garysnursery.com/BigMinors.html

[palm tree man]

I might have picture of the blooms somewhere I will have to look. I have taken allot of pictures this year; was managing websites for a couple of sales oriented businesses and all my pics got mixed together. Thanks for the link that is very interesting and I see leaf structure similarities as well. The trunk on their minors is prettier than some I have seen almost more palmetto like. They might have a hybrid there. Palmetto might hybridize more easily than we all once thought.

[Sabal Steve]

Steve to my knowledge they do. I have had seed for both in my possession that I got from RPS at least ten years ago. Some Taxonimist clump them together; I feel they are way too different on many levels to ever be considered the same. They looked identical for the most part seed wise; some were smaller and larger but in the realm of what i would say was normal diversification. Mexicana is larger "rounder" and so is Uresana. I don't really have experience with Yapa or Maur... They would probably make it here with some care but I didn't want to use them for care free foundation planting. My Causarium, Dom, and Bur.. have all been slow to set seed and they have been in the ground since somewhere around 2004 from an overgrown 2 gallon.

I'll try to get to the location that I obtained these some day and get a pic of the mother plant. Definitely not Yapa or Mauritiformis or Uresana. From what I've heard, S. mexicana is similar to a S. palmetto - but larger. I don't know how prevalent S. mexicana is in these parts - I'm leaning toward S. riverside, S. domingensis, or S. causarium.

[palm tree man]

It looks alike like a robust palmetto and often retains its leaf boots for much longer. Most have to have them mechanically removed. There are other slight differences as well, but those are some of the major ones. They are really nice palms; I tend to be a fan of sabal though.

[Sabal Steve]

Thos one had all of it's boots on about 10 ft of trunk. But, I remember the crown being fairly compact for its size. I think there were fewer leaves than palmetto.

[palm tree man]

Sabal leaf crowns can change with environment. In the shade the leaves are longer and larger in general and the petiole are longer too. My palmetto grown in full, hot, open sun and shade look noticeably different. Infact I saved four from a church parking lot and when I replanted them in full sun the crown has been more compact and stems have been shorter. It is one of the sabal you mentioned for sure. I am leaning towards Dom or Riverside possibly. What do you think Steve?

[Sabal Steve]

Sabal leaf crowns can change with environment. In the shade the leaves are longer and larger in general and the petiole are longer too. My palmetto grown in full, hot, open sun and shade look noticeably different. Infact I saved four from a church parking lot and when I replanted them in full sun the crown has been more compact and stems have been shorter. It is one of the sabal you mentioned for sure. I am leaning towards Dom or Riverside possibly. What do you think Steve?

Funny thing is that i remember the crown being fairly compact even though it was shade grown... If I had to guess I would say S. riverside based on the retained boots. S. domingensis is self cleaning along with S. casuarium right? I should probably revisit the site and take a picture before I speculate further, as I am just going off of memory.

[palm tree man]

The boot-jacks on your average Sabal Domingensis do tend to be more persistent much like Sabal Palmetto, but do eventually fall off and can be removed mechanically. Habitat can play a big role on when and the trunk does usually show some scaring. Sabal Causiarum has a much smoother trunk like a large concrete pole. Riverside is allot like Domingensis from what I know of it. There is allot of mystery surrounding it however and I also thought that the crown was suppose to be more compact. I could be wrong though; I have been before.

[SoulofthePlace]

I just bought seed of Sabal palmetto "Riverside" that grows in Franklin, Louisiana. The seller assured me it is "Riverside" and the seeds after I cleaned them seem much bigger than regular Florida Sabal palmetto. I hope they are hardy to my zone 8A in central SC.

[palm tree man]

They should be leaf hardy to 15 degrees or slightly lower. It seems they are very similar to sabal palmetto in cold tolerance. The seeds are no freeze hardy from what I have read and should be harvested before below freezing weather for best germinatioñ.

[palm tree man]

You should not have a problem they have been grown in Augusta, Ga. which is very similar to the Columbia area.

[Sabal Steve]

I just bought seed of Sabal palmetto "Riverside" that grows in Franklin, Louisiana. The seller assured me it is "Riverside" and the seeds after I cleaned them seem much bigger than regular Florida Sabal palmetto. I hope they are hardy to my zone 8A in central SC.

Have you looked into S. birmingham? In my opinion it's the most attractive cold hardy trunking Sabal, and likely the cold hardiest next to S. minor.

[Sabal Steve]

S. birmingham is a snail though...

[Sabal Steve]

Seeds from S. riverside?

[palm tree man]

That seed looks legit to me Steve from what I have seen and what has been posted on this thread. It is definitely not palmetto, I can tell you that for sure. Sabal birmingham is tough; this was something interesting that I found out. Some believe it is a variant of Sabal Riverside, because one source says the orignal plant came from a source or seed in California. There are a few academic boards shortly discussing this possibility. Then some believe it is a brazoria but then you have those that believe it is a big trunking minor variety. They are beautiful to me though.

[palm tree man]

Any luck yet germinating your riverside seed Steve? I am starting another batch of sabal seed this weekend when I get a few hours. Keep me posted on them buddy.

[Sabal Steve]

I'm still working on germinating them. Now that it is heating up outside my germination area is getting pretty warm. Should sprout soon.

Surprisingly, I got one of my mutant Sabal seeds to sprout.

There's some pics of it in this thread (post 18) - http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/37973-sabal-id/

Also, I took some pics of the palm in question today. I'll upload them soon.

[Sabal Steve]

I think that it's been a little over a month now. I have faith in them.

[palm tree man]

Cool let me know. Sabal always germinate pretty easily for me with a little heat. They are the fastest but they are far from the slowest to germinate. Thanks for the pic, I am going to check it out man.

[Sabal Steve]

It's really crowded in the pic. A bit wider in the crown than I remembered.

[Sabal Steve]

I'd put the crown at around 20 feet, with a little under 10 feet of trunk.

[palm tree man]

The trunk appears to be around 2 feet give or take and it is retaining its boots as well. It also has large leaves on a fairly compact crown. My best educated guess would be Riverside. If it isn't and I am wrong, it will still be a nice, large, attractive sabal. I would love to grow some of those myself. Thanks for sharing your pics bud. The parent tree is really nice.

[Sandy Loam]

Wow - what a nice trunk. I'm not going to guess what kind of sabal that is, but one thing is for sure: it is not sabal palmetto.

....and now I'm going to digress a bit because we are engaged in this discussion about sabals.

For those of us who live near several different wild Sabal Palmetto forests, am I the only one who has noticed that there is more than one type of Sabal Palmetto? Obviously, the ones growing in shade have huge, long petioles that droop and make each fan look very separate from the others. Yet that is not the difference I am thinking of. What I mean is that there are forests where you see a whole bunch of short, stout and very wide-trunked Sabal Palmettos with all of their boots/leaf bases in tact (despite age -- the trees could be 200 years old). Yet in other locations, one finds Sabal Palmetto forests where the trunks are all long, tall, slender and all have naturally lost their boots/leaf bases. This seems to occur even in locations where there is no need to grow especially tall because there aren't other trees around.

There seems to be no rhyme or reason to this pattern, except that I often see consistent groups together in the same location-- that is, either the stout type (often with longer petioles) are grouped together, or else the tall slender type are grouped together. The tall, slender type often have very short petioles, but not necessarily.

To those who are not familiar with Sabals, one could easily assume that they are two different species. I keep wondering if they aren't!

Sorry, I had to digress because this thread was beginning to exhaust its Sabal Riverside content.

[palm tree man]

I agree. I have seen more variation than that even. The Palmettos on the direct coast of Georgia are different than those inland as well. There is a great deal of diversity in the species.

[Sabal Steve]

Wow - what a nice trunk. I'm not going to guess what kind of sabal that is, but one thing is for sure: it is not sabal palmetto.....and now I'm going to digress a bit because we are engaged in this discussion about sabals.For those of us who live near several different wild Sabal Palmetto forests, am I the only one who has noticed that there is more than one type of Sabal Palmetto? Obviously, the ones growing in shade have huge, long petioles that droop and make each fan look very separate from the others. Yet that is not the difference I am thinking of. What I mean is that there are forests where you see a whole bunch of short, stout and very wide-trunked Sabal Palmettos with all of their boots/leaf bases in tact (despite age -- the trees could be 200 years old). Yet in other locations, one finds Sabal Palmetto forests where the trunks are all long, tall, slender and all have naturally lost their boots/leaf bases. This seems to occur even in locations where there is no need to grow especially tall because there aren't other trees around.There seems to be no rhyme or reason to this pattern, except that I often see consistent groups together in the same location-- that is, either the stout type (often with longer petioles) are grouped together, or else the tall slender type are grouped together. The tall, slender type often have very short petioles, but not necessarily.To those who are not familiar with Sabals, one could easily assume that they are two different species. I keep wondering if they aren't!Sorry, I had to digress because this thread was beginning to exhaust its Sabal Riverside content.

There are cold hardy forums that cover S. palmetto.