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New Florida Winter Outlook


gsytch

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Correction to my last post

Temperature around 5.p.m. dropped from 51.7 to 51.0 in 20 minutes

Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

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Walt - so those cocos are in a zone 10 microclimate then? From what you wrote sounds like it rarely freezes there, correct? Must be quite an effort to keep those tender plants and your coconut palm at your place..

Well only a day or two before the forecast for Orlando was calling for 40-41 then suddenly 39 and then finally during the afternoon or night they kept dropping the lows to the mid 30s. I think Friday or Saturday i saw a videocast where Saturday night/Sunday AM would be the coldest. But tonight, Sunday night it's already in the 30s at some weather stations, and in the low 40s at the airports and more urban spots. Could be bad for me if it drops below 32 (and I'm expecting it) as my large mango is full of small fruit and another smaller mango tree is competely uncovered. Tender palms are small and potted but I see many trees already leafed out and some plants were in growth mode.. yep sorry to be a downer but there could be some damage around this time.

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Three degrees from the freezing mark, eight hours to go. Not good. 28°F here we come! :indifferent:

Frank

 

Zone 9b pine flatlands

humid/hot summers; dry/cool winters

with yearly freezes

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39. Out where the broken station is probably 37-38 by now. Around 3AM is supposed to be the coldest time tonight, unlike the usual morning hours. Will begin warming up then.

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lol just when you thought you were out of the woods and even weathermen were celebrating the first freeze-free winter for our area in 9 years. Well.. nature has a funny way of evening things out after such a warm January. I had even trimmed my small mango tree last week .. oh oh

If we go below 32 this would be the latest freeze I can remember in many years. The one 5th of February 1996 was bad, but then again it was at the beginning of February.. not this late :bemused:

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I know that in early March of 2002 Orlando Int'l Airport reached 25F, the coldest March temp on record, so it can happen at least as late as mid-February. I recall (officially) in Orlando, we went a record of some 6 years without an official freeze at the major airports from late 2003 to late 2009. This, no doubt, was/is due to ever-increasing urbanization, as well as a fairly warm streak of winters and was mentioned by the local news each time a cold blast would hit. During this time, at my house, we had a few borderline light freezes and some fairly significant frosts, but definitely nothing below 30F whatsoever.

Tonight could surprise many, as it is already averaging in the mid 30s at area reporting stations, though still 41 near downtown as expected. This one could be the real deal for suburban and especially rural areas. On the other hand, it would not at all surprise me if temperatures in the area (except rural) leveled off around now and only dropped another couple degrees by sunrise. I have seen this happen on many freeze warned nights over the past 8 years here.

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When I pull up the Orlando International Airport table from WXunderground I get a low of 34 February 28, 2002 and a low of 37 March 5 and that's as low as it shows

Yes that's true, sometimes temps don't drop much more, not sure under what conditions that happens, perhaps a change in wind flow? but we have no wind tonight

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Officially 34.5F, since it has held steady for 1/2 hour and now went up to 35F. There is very light frost in open areas, fields, etc. When I woke up at 2am it was 38F. If this is the coldest we will see, then it is a freeze-free year! I also looked ahead and see Accuweather has a chill down in early March, showing 63/43 one day around the 3rd. According to most LRF it is upwards from here with a shift in the pattern to warmth. I did cover most everything with frost cloth (begonias dont like it under 32F and I have 900 sq ft under shadecloth of just them) but no worry on the yard. Palms, Heliconias, my Mango also in full fruit now (like little marbles). The Mango Tree is well over 30' tall so covering is not an option lol. Predicting 67F today and 75F tomorrow. Hurry up please! :rant:

Begonias are my thing. I've been growing and selling them for three decades, nearly two in Tampa Bay. NPR is an bhour N of St Pete, coast

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No freeze-free year for me but the first zone 10a winter! Lowest temperature held steady at 30.0°F for more than an hour. Considerable frost. So much for a green spring. My D. cabadae may lose its full crown, as it is meant to be. My royal still looks good but bananas and brugmansias are toast. My avocado tree is too big to cover but it looks good so far.

Frank

 

Zone 9b pine flatlands

humid/hot summers; dry/cool winters

with yearly freezes

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Looks like 37.2F low in Palm Harbor on my weather station and something around 40F on Pine Island (as all I have here is a cheap remote thermometer on my back patio). I saw some light patchy frost on the lowest areas of my lawn (in the drainage swale by the street) on Pine Island when I went out just before sunup.

It's warming up fast now though.

Edited by spockvr6

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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When I pull up the Orlando International Airport table from WXunderground I get a low of 34 February 28, 2002 and a low of 37 March 5 and that's as low as it shows

Yes that's true, sometimes temps don't drop much more, not sure under what conditions that happens, perhaps a change in wind flow? but we have no wind tonight

March 2-3-4th of 1980 were very cold mornings in Central Fla , with Mar 3rd being 26 in Daytona Beach ( all time March low).

Sebring recorded 23 the same day . A spit of snow as the front came through Daytona , according to my notes. The temps were the

official reported , and not my personal .

I think that the WU info is incomplete , maybe because of a change in the official reporting station , as the new airport etc were built.

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My mistake, I was thinking 2002 was the year it hit 25F in March. This morning, Sanford officially hit 32F this morning, Orlando Int'l (I feel this station best represents suburban Orlando temps) dropped to and leveled off at 35F for several hours and the Executive Airport only managed 37.9F (again). I am tempted to move right downtown and plant some Cocos. It RARELY gets below freezing there anymore.

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Nothing bad here, 38F on Sat. night/Sun. morning and just 40F this morning (Sun/night/Mon morning)

38F is the lowest this winter so far. Still an awesome winter for metro Orlando.

It was 34F at my girlfriends in Altamonte Springs (about 12 miles NW of downtownOrlando) and light frost.

Eric

Orlando, FL

zone 9b/10a

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When I pull up the Orlando International Airport table from WXunderground I get a low of 34 February 28, 2002 and a low of 37 March 5 and that's as low as it shows

Yes that's true, sometimes temps don't drop much more, not sure under what conditions that happens, perhaps a change in wind flow? but we have no wind tonight

March 2-3-4th of 1980 were very cold mornings in Central Fla , with Mar 3rd being 26 in Daytona Beach ( all time March low).

Sebring recorded 23 the same day . A spit of snow as the front came through Daytona , according to my notes. The temps were the

official reported , and not my personal .

I think that the WU info is incomplete , maybe because of a change in the official reporting station , as the new airport etc were built.

I remember the March 1980 freeze, it was about 26F in Orlando.

Eric

Orlando, FL

zone 9b/10a

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Actual overnight low: 41.5F Weather Underground nailed it with their prediction of 41F.

Current temp is 59.0. Wind has turned from NW/N to E. We're also gaining about 2 minutes of daylight per day.

I didn't go out at all yesterday so I'm looking forward to seeing how all the plants fared.

Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

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north by northeast winds @15MPH drove it down to 35.6F, then stalled and became still, minimizing the coastal influence (according to local weather station 1 mile away). Our area does much better with NW wind(off water). No obvious frost... fingers crossed that winter is over... I cant complain as I have quite a few recent plantings that have benefited from 2 mild winters and after this summer should be pretty much rooted... What was a bare yard in spring 2010 is now growing in quickly...

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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interestingly all around st petersburg on the pinellas peninsula lows varied widely from 35.5-47F according to various weather underground stations. The warm late season tampa bay water seemed to keep things quite a bit warmer on the east coast of pinellas with the cold winds coming from the N NE. West parts of the peninsula(pasadena/mango ave) hit 35.5-37F and water proximity didnt seem to be so important as campbell park(45F) a couple miles off the east coast. Right on the water st pete municiplal marina was 46.6F

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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interestingly all around st petersburg on the pinellas peninsula lows varied widely from 35.5-47F according to various weather underground stations. The warm late season tampa bay water seemed to keep things quite a bit warmer on the east coast of pinellas with the cold winds coming from the N NE. West parts of the peninsula(pasadena/mango ave) hit 35.5-37F and water proximity didnt seem to be so important as campbell park(45F) a couple miles off the east coast. Right on the water st pete municiplal marina was 46.6F

That microclimate is amazing. Pinellas was the only county on the West Coast north of Lee without a Freeze Warning last night

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Im starting to appreciate wind direction in cold events around my area. when the wind comes from the east/NE the eastern pinellas shoreline is going to be warmer and the rest of us west coasters with a west facing waterline will be a bit colder as the weather will be coming off land. When the wind comes from the west/northwest as may front do, being close the the west coast really helps... In 2010 the Dec 15 cold event the wind came from the NW and the west side of st pete(especially SW side) was 5 degrees warmer than the east coast of pinellas... Yes it is an unusual microclimate, for those on that small peninsula in a cold event...

Edited by sonoranfans

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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41F here Saturday morning and 38F here this morning with no frost so it could have been much worse. That said, it's dissapointing that the mercury dropped below 40F for the first time this winter. 1997 continues uncontested as the only winter in recent history where the mercury never dipped below 40F for me.

Tampa, Interbay Peninsula, Florida, USA

subtropical USDA Zone 10A

Bokeelia, Pine Island, Florida, USA

subtropical USDA Zone 10B

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Had mid-40's by 8:30 PM Sunday. Put the weather station in the middle of open yard. Surprised to find that we purportedly only bottomed-out at 35F - with a pretty decent frost.

I would like to thank Mother Nature for at least having this undesirable weather on a weekend, when I could put an earnest effort at "Walt'ing" my yard. I covered as much tender stuff as I could - but still noted some pretty good burn on Roystonea, Archonotophoenix and Caryota. Makes me think it was a good bit cooler than 35 - but with decent frost - you never know.

Best everyone

~ Rich

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Walt - so those cocos are in a zone 10 microclimate then? From what you wrote sounds like it rarely freezes there, correct? Must be quite an effort to keep those tender plants and your coconut palm at your place..

Well only a day or two before the forecast for Orlando was calling for 40-41 then suddenly 39 and then finally during the afternoon or night they kept dropping the lows to the mid 30s. I think Friday or Saturday i saw a videocast where Saturday night/Sunday AM would be the coldest. But tonight, Sunday night it's already in the 30s at some weather stations, and in the low 40s at the airports and more urban spots. Could be bad for me if it drops below 32 (and I'm expecting it) as my large mango is full of small fruit and another smaller mango tree is competely uncovered. Tender palms are small and potted but I see many trees already leafed out and some plants were in growth mode.. yep sorry to be a downer but there could be some damage around this time.

IMO, based on what I've personally seen over the past 15 winters, the incorporated town part of Lake Placid is a very solid zone 10. I would say 10b most winters. This is strickly due to elevation, plus the fact that the town is surrounded by lakes 360 degrees.

Whenever I have a devastating radiational freeze I always drive up into town to inspect for damage -- and I never find it!

In the past 15 winters I've had two catastrophic radiational freezes, the first one was January 5, 2001 when my low temperature was 22 degrees, and that was up by my house. I'm sure it was several degrees colder farther out on a lower part of my property. The second catastrophic radiational freeze was in December of 2010 when my low was 20.8 degrees, plus I had two other nights below 25 degrees and several nights in the upper 20s. My garden was wrecked. Yet, I go up into town and papayas and bananas aren't hurt.

I've never had a bad advective freeze. However, I think it was in January of 2003 we had a cold advective event. The two coconut palms up in town (that other one wasn't there yet) were badly dessicated and wind burned. And the only other times the coconut palms were hurt was in both January and December of 2010, but that, IMO, was from night after night and day after day of prolonged cold weather, not freezing weather (up in town only).

Yes, it's a real chore to keep many of my palms from being killed during most winters. When they were smaller I could give them full protection (bundling, wrapping insulation and providing supplemental heat). But now most are too tall, so I limit my protection to the trunk and meristem by installing either thermostatically controlled heating cables or string lights plus insulation. The fronds may be mostly killed but the trunk and meristem live to regrow a new crown.

Mad about palms

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I got off relatively easy last night/this morning. Once the sun went down the temperature here dropped faster than a lead ballon. It was alreadly in the upper 30s before 9 o'clock P.M. I said to myself I will probably see mid 20s by morning. However, around 2-3 A.M. the temperatures started to rise slightly and level off. Hours later they started to drop again. I had two hi-lo thermometers out and my lowest one read 31 degrees, the other 33 degrees. I walked all around my property just as it was starting to get first light. I had my pocket digital thermometer that registers in tenths of a degree. The lowest I could get with that was 32 degrees on the lowermost part of my property.

My garden incurred slightly less damage this morning than it did back on December 23rd when my low was exactly 32 degrees. The only things I could find cold/frost damage was bananas in the open, one Tibouchina heteromalla, and a Thumbergia blue sky vine growing on an arbor in the center of the open yard. My other sky vines in more sheltered areas weren't hurt. None of my palms were hurt. I did train a 30K BTU forced air propane heater on my small coconut palm starting at 2 A.M. until about 7:30 A.M.

My wife left for work at 6:25 A.M. I wanted her to give me a report of the temperatures in our yard and what the temperature was once she got up on US 27 on the Lake Wales Ridge. She was on her cell phone and I on the house phone. As she pulled out of our driveway she said the car outside thermometer read 33 degrees. As she started up the hill to US 27 she said the it's now 34, 35, 36... and when she got onto US 27 in front of Florida Hospital the temperature was 39 degrees -- a testament to the value of elevation in my area of Florida (low areas suck big time).

If today is the last of the below 32 degrees cold, this will be about my third zone 10a winter in 15 years (the '97-'98 winter being my first one). I think I've have about three 9a winters, the rest 9b (on the low side). I now look forward to seeing many of my palms (and my travelers palm) regrow full canopies again.

Mad about palms

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Thanks for the details Walt. perhaps once your Coconut palm is tall the crown will be high enough to be a degree or two warmer than at soil level. If it wasn't because the SE side of the house needs to stay clear I'd plant a Coconut right there. Here Coconuts would probably thrive in downtown Orlando especially on the south side of those newer condos. Unfortunately they have planted ugly native palms (sorry) and even uglier oaks - whatever kind those are - that are planted everywhere. Must be to keep it native :indifferent: . On South Street there's a nice Poinciana tree B) that's getting tall, next to a parking garage. The only nice, crowshafted palm I've noted nearby is some kind of Archontophoenix? that's still small, on the other side of that garage.

Here where I am in Orlando it was around 35 (always forget to buy a thermometer) with frost in the more open areas of the yard and cars. Noted a few leaves on my small Mango had a slight yellowing and a couple of banana leaves had damage. Had to look hard, but noted my Turk's Cap hibiscus had a few fried leaves despite being on the SE side of the house, I'm guessing due to frost. No overhang from the roof there so no roof protection. Three feet away, a freeze-sensitive Carambola 'Kary' variety that's now too tall to cover properly and can get whacked pretty bad (even some leaves were burned on that one single weak freeze event we had last winter) shows no apparent damage.

Some stations on WxUnderground were reporting a bit below freezing however. I saw some upper 20s NE and SE of town. Noticed one extreme: Sanford Aero Modelers wx station NE of Lake Jessup - reported low 20s... :violin: Hopefully this is the last episode this winter meaning two Zone 10 winters in a row for Orlando :rolleyes:

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Officially heavy frost in open yards and fields, but only 34F as a low, meaning for me, the first freeze-free winter since 2009. Last year we had one dip to 30.9F, and the prior two years were miserable. That said, any plants damage is limited to open area banana, heliconia. Even my Brugs are fine. The frost was only in open areas. None noted anywhere else. A zone 10 winter for the second straight year! :yay:

Begonias are my thing. I've been growing and selling them for three decades, nearly two in Tampa Bay. NPR is an bhour N of St Pete, coast

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Thanks for the details Walt. perhaps once your Coconut palm is tall the crown will be high enough to be a degree or two warmer than at soil level. If it wasn't because the SE side of the house needs to stay clear I'd plant a Coconut right there. Here Coconuts would probably thrive in downtown Orlando especially on the south side of those newer condos. Unfortunately they have planted ugly native palms (sorry) and even uglier oaks - whatever kind those are - that are planted everywhere. Must be to keep it native :indifferent: . On South Street there's a nice Poinciana tree B) that's getting tall, next to a parking garage. The only nice, crowshafted palm I've noted nearby is some kind of Archontophoenix? that's still small, on the other side of that garage.

Here where I am in Orlando it was around 35 (always forget to buy a thermometer) with frost in the more open areas of the yard and cars. Noted a few leaves on my small Mango had a slight yellowing and a couple of banana leaves had damage. Had to look hard, but noted my Turk's Cap hibiscus had a few fried leaves despite being on the SE side of the house, I'm guessing due to frost. No overhang from the roof there so no roof protection. Three feet away, a freeze-sensitive Carambola 'Kary' variety that's now too tall to cover properly and can get whacked pretty bad (even some leaves were burned on that one single weak freeze event we had last winter) shows no apparent damage.

Some stations on WxUnderground were reporting a bit below freezing however. I saw some upper 20s NE and SE of town. Noticed one extreme: Sanford Aero Modelers wx station NE of Lake Jessup - reported low 20s... :violin: Hopefully this is the last episode this winter meaning two Zone 10 winters in a row for Orlando :rolleyes:

There were coconut palms around metro Orlando but they are perished after the 2009-10 winter. It wasn't the overall low (about 29F) that winter but the continued coolness that killed them. Most looked decent with only light burn in spring but slowly declined and were dead by summer. We had several here at Leu Gardens including one that been growing for over 10 years.

Look next time at that parking garage, there are 2 good sized Roystonea borinquena near the Royal Poinciana. I grew these from seed and they were originally planted at the 1st Medodist Church on the next block but moved to the garage a few years ago when the church rebuilt their large building. They also have a row of nice Dypsis decaryi as street trees on the other side.

There are more crownshafted palms being planted around downtown. The courtyard of the DuPont building has a bunch of large Wodyetia. In front of the Suntrust building are 2 big Hyophorbe verschaffeltii. City Hall has quite a few Archontophoenix cunninghamiana. In the park next to the History Center are some Hyophorbe lagenicaulis that survived the 2009-10 winter along with a couple Licuala grandis, that is amazing. Someone who is in charge of downtown plantings contacted me and asking about using Royal Palms downtown. I told them they should grow well as the downtown area is extremely warm. Hopefully some will be planted.

Eric

Orlando, FL

zone 9b/10a

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Thanks for the details Walt. perhaps once your Coconut palm is tall the crown will be high enough to be a degree or two warmer than at soil level. If it wasn't because the SE side of the house needs to stay clear I'd plant a Coconut right there. Here Coconuts would probably thrive in downtown Orlando especially on the south side of those newer condos. Unfortunately they have planted ugly native palms (sorry) and even uglier oaks - whatever kind those are - that are planted everywhere. Must be to keep it native :indifferent: . On South Street there's a nice Poinciana tree B) that's getting tall, next to a parking garage. The only nice, crowshafted palm I've noted nearby is some kind of Archontophoenix? that's still small, on the other side of that garage.

Here where I am in Orlando it was around 35 (always forget to buy a thermometer) with frost in the more open areas of the yard and cars. Noted a few leaves on my small Mango had a slight yellowing and a couple of banana leaves had damage. Had to look hard, but noted my Turk's Cap hibiscus had a few fried leaves despite being on the SE side of the house, I'm guessing due to frost. No overhang from the roof there so no roof protection. Three feet away, a freeze-sensitive Carambola 'Kary' variety that's now too tall to cover properly and can get whacked pretty bad (even some leaves were burned on that one single weak freeze event we had last winter) shows no apparent damage.

Some stations on WxUnderground were reporting a bit below freezing however. I saw some upper 20s NE and SE of town. Noticed one extreme: Sanford Aero Modelers wx station NE of Lake Jessup - reported low 20s... :violin: Hopefully this is the last episode this winter meaning two Zone 10 winters in a row for Orlando :rolleyes:

I was just commenting to my wife this morning that in spite of almost similar low temperatures (Dec. 23dr vs. Feb. 18th), there was less foliage damage to plants yesterday than on Dec. 22rd. I can safely assume it was due to having far less frost yesterday than back on Dec. 23rd. I had heavy frost that morning, whereas yesterday it was very light and scattered. It makes sense, as the dew point (frost point) was 27 degrees yesterday, whereas it was much higher on Dec. 23rd.

Yes, as palm canopies grow higher and higher above the ground they should become a little less prone to frost damage due to being in slightly warmer air as compared to being lower to the ground.

Mad about palms

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It has been a mild winter in Houston again this year. This winter and last I only registered a low of 33 at my place in SE Houston. Most of the city has stayed above freezing with the suburbs in the upper 20s for the season low. However, in the two winters before that it was 22 and 23 here in SE Houston.

So far this month the the average high has been around 70 and the average low in the low 50s. No cold weather is froecast for the next 10 days according to the WU so it is likely it will be above freezing for two winters in a row.

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/productview.php?pil=HGXCF6HOU

Ed in Houston

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Someone who is in charge of downtown plantings contacted me and asking about using Royal Palms downtown. I told them they should grow well as the downtown area is extremely warm. Hopefully some will be planted.

The price on them is definitely right these days! On PI and in Homestead last I checked $50-75 gets a towering Royal. It will cost far more to install them than the actual palms.

But, IMO, municipalities should not be installing marginal palms as the eventual removal/replacement costs get too high.

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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Interesting discussion. I don't think royals (Roystonea regia) are marginal for downtown Orlando anymore (Cocos, yes, would be very irresponsible to landscape with those downtown). Royals planted downtown may be partially defoliated once a decade or so (maybe less) but I do not think it can get cold enough in urban Orlando to kill a mature, healthy Royal. The low yesterday morning was 37.9F.

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Interesting discussion. I don't think royals (Roystonea regia) are marginal for downtown Orlando anymore (Cocos, yes, would be very irresponsible to landscape with those downtown). Royals planted downtown may be partially defoliated once a decade or so (maybe less) but I do not think it can get cold enough in urban Orlando to kill a mature, healthy Royal. The low yesterday morning was 37.9F.

Oh man! That just jinxed us!

LOL.

Pandoras box being opened!!!!!

My new theory on this is more conservative than it used to be. BAH HUMBUG!

Basically, I now subscribe to the idea that if a given plant, that has been widely available for decades, can reliably survive in a given area, there will be many of them present.

I say this after just observing what is around in different parts of FL. Also, having both a small joint down on PI and living mainly here in Palm Harbor, when I compare the differences in actual low temps in both locations, many (most) times its only a few degrees. But, the area landscapes appear vastly different. I mean vastly different. It cannot be solely because people in Palm Harbor dislike the look of Royal and Coconut palms, have never seen them before, etc. It has to be because Mother Nature hasnt allowed them to stay.

There is no part of West Central FL (outside of the immediate downtown St. Pete area) that looks even remotely like that of areas further south. There are some examples of similar plants, but they are limited in number such that they are "notable", rather than being the norm.

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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Interesting discussion. I don't think royals (Roystonea regia) are marginal for downtown Orlando anymore (Cocos, yes, would be very irresponsible to landscape with those downtown). Royals planted downtown may be partially defoliated once a decade or so (maybe less) but I do not think it can get cold enough in urban Orlando to kill a mature, healthy Royal. The low yesterday morning was 37.9F.

Oh man! That just jinxed us!

LOL.

Pandoras box being opened!!!!!

My new theory on this is more conservative than it used to be. BAH HUMBUG!

Basically, I now subscribe to the idea that if a given plant, that has been widely available for decades, can reliably survive in a given area, there will be many of them present.

I say this after just observing what is around in different parts of FL. Also, having both a small joint down on PI and living mainly here in Palm Harbor, when I compare the differences in actual low temps in both locations, many (most) times its only a few degrees. But, the area landscapes appear vastly different. I mean vastly different. It cannot be solely because people in Palm Harbor dislike the look of Royal and Coconut palms, have never seen them before, etc. It has to be because Mother Nature hasnt allowed them to stay.

There is no part of West Central FL (outside of the immediate downtown St. Pete area) that looks even remotely like that of areas further south. There are some examples of similar plants, but they are limited in number such that they are "notable", rather than being the norm.

Larry,

I agree on the cocos, but large royals are far more cold hardy... I would also point that large royals drop many heavy fronds from height and can get huge so they arent the ideal private landscape tree, especially on a typical small florida lot. As a public tree, they really like water which makes them not "water wise" for municiplaities who need to control water costs in our seemingly common droughts. Foxtails are similarly cold hardy, and I saw a number of older ones in Largo, inland 10-15 miles fly, through winter 2010... Around me the royals are plenty cold hardy at a larger size, they had no issues with 2010, except a bit of leaf burn(20%) even though we got a bit colder than largo that year. I guess the question is does downtown orlando really want palms that may get cold burn or drop massive fronds onto the public areas? How would you like one of those falling on you or your car? I have noticed fewer royals and more foxtails even in west bradenton, though its a solid 10a, where the well watered royals are huge and look great. But the foxtails also look nice and dont drop those huge branches, and dont seem to need as much water... Some royals in the area obviously have had their watering restricted and dont look good. I have two royals and really struggled with whether I should have any because of those large branches. I do appreciate them with their fat trunks, nice green crowns, and potentially great height, but I dont think they are the best of trees for areas that people walk under...

By the way Larry, your new philosophy did seem to emerge after you got your place down on PI, LOL!!

Edited by sonoranfans

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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I think there are suitable areas for royals downtown but not widespread because of the falling leaf hazard and watering. Archontophoenix and Wodyetia would be better choices in irrigated locations for safety. But there are Washingtonia everywhere and the leaves a re a big safety hazard falling because of the curved spines.

Downtown has a great microclimate and more marginals should be used. But there are plenty of totally hardy palms that aren't common to be used also, to give an exotic look.

Eric

Orlando, FL

zone 9b/10a

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By the way Larry, your new philosophy did seem to emerge after you got your place down on PI, LOL!!

Yes....that was my driving point!

It used to be fun "pretending", but once you actually "see" it becomes obvious! Why fight Ma Nature?

BTW - No malicious inmtent here......Of course, Ive gone ahead and planted a number of things in my Palm Harbor yard that are marginal long term....but what the h@#$!

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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And guys....I understand the falling frond thought....but dont Miami and Ft Myers have cars and people walking under their palms too? They still have thousands and thousands (millions) of them!

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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Interesting discussion. I don't think royals (Roystonea regia) are marginal for downtown Orlando anymore (Cocos, yes, would be very irresponsible to landscape with those downtown). Royals planted downtown may be partially defoliated once a decade or so (maybe less) but I do not think it can get cold enough in urban Orlando to kill a mature, healthy Royal. The low yesterday morning was 37.9F.

Oh man! That just jinxed us!

LOL.

Pandoras box being opened!!!!!

My new theory on this is more conservative than it used to be. BAH HUMBUG!

Basically, I now subscribe to the idea that if a given plant, that has been widely available for decades, can reliably survive in a given area, there will be many of them present.

I say this after just observing what is around in different parts of FL. Also, having both a small joint down on PI and living mainly here in Palm Harbor, when I compare the differences in actual low temps in both locations, many (most) times its only a few degrees. But, the area landscapes appear vastly different. I mean vastly different. It cannot be solely because people in Palm Harbor dislike the look of Royal and Coconut palms, have never seen them before, etc. It has to be because Mother Nature hasnt allowed them to stay.

There is no part of West Central FL (outside of the immediate downtown St. Pete area) that looks even remotely like that of areas further south. There are some examples of similar plants, but they are limited in number such that they are "notable", rather than being the norm.

Larry,

I agree on the cocos, but large royals are far more cold hardy... I would also point that large royals drop many heavy fronds from height and can get huge so they arent the ideal private landscape tree, especially on a typical small florida lot. As a public tree, they really like water which makes them not "water wise" for municiplaities who need to control water costs in our seemingly common droughts. Foxtails are similarly cold hardy, and I saw a number of older ones in Largo, inland 10-15 miles fly, through winter 2010... Around me the royals are plenty cold hardy at a larger size, they had no issues with 2010, except a bit of leaf burn(20%) even though we got a bit colder than largo that year. I guess the question is does downtown orlando really want palms that may get cold burn or drop massive fronds onto the public areas? How would you like one of those falling on you or your car? I have noticed fewer royals and more foxtails even in west bradenton, though its a solid 10a, where the well watered royals are huge and look great. But the foxtails also look nice and dont drop those huge branches, and dont seem to need as much water... Some royals in the area obviously have had their watering restricted and dont look good. I have two royals and really struggled with whether I should have any because of those large branches. I do appreciate them with their fat trunks, nice green crowns, and potentially great height, but I dont think they are the best of trees for areas that people walk under...

By the way Larry, your new philosophy did seem to emerge after you got your place down on PI, LOL!!

And I will disagree (humbly and good naturedly!) with the thought that Royals and Foxtails are similarly hardy! IMO, Royals get burned foliage more easily, but can come back from dead cold more easily. I recall seeing alot of Foxtails a few years ago that just struggled and struggled to come back and didnt, whereas Royals got all their foliage burned off (or a good part of it), but kept growing like nothing had happened. None of mine in Tarpon even got any trunk constrictions. However, my neighbor planted one in ~2000 in his backyard and it was turned to mush (in ~2002?).

BTW, I drove by my old yard a few weeks ago and man those Royals have gotten FAT. Im glad the new owner is keeping them well fed and watered.

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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From my experience, the native Royal palm pulls through more easily after being cold damaged. In 2010, I saw some local Foxtails struggle to return from the "dead" or got cut down but all the Royals survived. I suppose the Roystonea's fatter growing point would have something to do with this.

Does this thread end tomorrow? February 20th is the end of central Florida freeze season. This doesn't mean you won't see 33F in an upcoming forecast. Freeze Scare season lasts for another couple of weeks.

Tampa, Interbay Peninsula, Florida, USA

subtropical USDA Zone 10A

Bokeelia, Pine Island, Florida, USA

subtropical USDA Zone 10B

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Interesting discussion. I don't think royals (Roystonea regia) are marginal for downtown Orlando anymore (Cocos, yes, would be very irresponsible to landscape with those downtown). Royals planted downtown may be partially defoliated once a decade or so (maybe less) but I do not think it can get cold enough in urban Orlando to kill a mature, healthy Royal. The low yesterday morning was 37.9F.

Oh man! That just jinxed us!

LOL.

Pandoras box being opened!!!!!

My new theory on this is more conservative than it used to be. BAH HUMBUG!

Basically, I now subscribe to the idea that if a given plant, that has been widely available for decades, can reliably survive in a given area, there will be many of them present.

I say this after just observing what is around in different parts of FL. Also, having both a small joint down on PI and living mainly here in Palm Harbor, when I compare the differences in actual low temps in both locations, many (most) times its only a few degrees. But, the area landscapes appear vastly different. I mean vastly different. It cannot be solely because people in Palm Harbor dislike the look of Royal and Coconut palms, have never seen them before, etc. It has to be because Mother Nature hasnt allowed them to stay.

There is no part of West Central FL (outside of the immediate downtown St. Pete area) that looks even remotely like that of areas further south. There are some examples of similar plants, but they are limited in number such that they are "notable", rather than being the norm.

Larry,

I agree on the cocos, but large royals are far more cold hardy... I would also point that large royals drop many heavy fronds from height and can get huge so they arent the ideal private landscape tree, especially on a typical small florida lot. As a public tree, they really like water which makes them not "water wise" for municiplaities who need to control water costs in our seemingly common droughts. Foxtails are similarly cold hardy, and I saw a number of older ones in Largo, inland 10-15 miles fly, through winter 2010... Around me the royals are plenty cold hardy at a larger size, they had no issues with 2010, except a bit of leaf burn(20%) even though we got a bit colder than largo that year. I guess the question is does downtown orlando really want palms that may get cold burn or drop massive fronds onto the public areas? How would you like one of those falling on you or your car? I have noticed fewer royals and more foxtails even in west bradenton, though its a solid 10a, where the well watered royals are huge and look great. But the foxtails also look nice and dont drop those huge branches, and dont seem to need as much water... Some royals in the area obviously have had their watering restricted and dont look good. I have two royals and really struggled with whether I should have any because of those large branches. I do appreciate them with their fat trunks, nice green crowns, and potentially great height, but I dont think they are the best of trees for areas that people walk under...

By the way Larry, your new philosophy did seem to emerge after you got your place down on PI, LOL!!

And I will disagree (humbly and good naturedly!) with the thought that Royals and Foxtails are similarly hardy! IMO, Royals get burned foliage more easily, but can come back from dead cold more easily. I recall seeing alot of Foxtails a few years ago that just struggled and struggled to come back and didnt, whereas Royals got all their foliage burned off (or a good part of it), but kept growing like nothing had happened. None of mine in Tarpon even got any trunk constrictions. However, my neighbor planted one in ~2000 in his backyard and it was turned to mush (in ~2002?).

BTW, I drove by my old yard a few weeks ago and man those Royals have gotten FAT. Im glad the new owner is keeping them well fed and watered.

I actually agree with you Larry, but I think a larger royal is more hardy, not the smaller ones. And my point was that the foxtails were fine in largo 10-15 miles inland so royals would have been fine, but arent used likely because of the branch dropping and increased water requirements.. In my area many small foxtails were killed in 2010, and ALL the small royals died(15 gallon or less). However as you noted, among the larger ones of both species, the royals clearly came back much faster after than record december cold.... Once the royal starts getting a fat trunk (1-2' of clear trunk?) it does seem more hardy.

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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I'm glad for you all having less damage this time around than back in December. Not for me! I got down to 30F even. I was hoping that no tenth of a degree ruined my 10a winter and glad it wasn't so!

Anyways, I surveyed the damage this morning and my royal (R. borinquena) has about 5% burn due to frost on one leaf (that is laying against a viburnum tree) but surprisingly another leaf fared better (an older, hardier, but more exposed leaf, with christmas lights running along the petiole) with burns only to one leaflet. My Dypsis cabadae, which is super frost sensitive, fared MUCH better this year, it has grown and looks like it is also growing in hardiness. Also, my Sabal palmetto next to it has grown and protects it further. Bananas out in the open got boiled like pasteles. Unprotected brugmansia melted quite a bit and papayas as well. I did "decorate" some of them with christmas lights but did not cover them with sheets and that helped! Where lights ran near leaves, those leaves didn't melt or not as bad. (Please take note of this!) Leaves that had no lights are shriveled by now. An exposed bougainvillea bush got toasted.

My two bizzies of course laughed at this, and my now tall Syagrus botryophora didn't even blink. Also my avocado tree is like nothing happened.

I had severe frost.

In what I now call the "Apopka channel", all around me wunderground showed mid to high 20s. For the first time I did much better than stations around me. Maybe my canopy is starting to work. Two massive Bizzies NW of my property and pine trees that have grown to adulthood to the south side.

Frank

 

Zone 9b pine flatlands

humid/hot summers; dry/cool winters

with yearly freezes

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