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It's not such an old thread Axel started last month, but it tells very well how we thank Palmtalk for the way it is! We also should think about the young generation, just joining IPS BECAUSE OF PALMTALK! And for them, enthusiasm and experience with palms is just starting to "germinate": Who in the BOD was 16 years old and reading Genera Palmarum? I know one Palmtalk kid who does! How many of us, members, are reading that book? Like palms, we have to care about the next generations who'll build our canopy for the next years! Does IPS want to look like a cemetery? Kindest regards Budu Saranai Philippe

Kim, It's true that we need to take a considered view on whats happening here, but it's difficult to keep level headed and cool in the face of arrogant disregard. Last night I sent a PM to another Australian member asking him to consider himself for the board nominations, I woke up this morning to find a reply PM, politely declining for numerous personal reasons, including the following : "The biggest obstacle currently is the cost to attend the BOD meetings and Biennials...as somebody on PT said, it is only the wealthy (generally) who nominate as most people can't afford it". Thats not surprising. What is surprising is that I can no longer contact this member to thank him for his reply or to ask advice about other potential nominations I have in mind. As a paid up member of the IPS for the last five years, I've got to say that this is an act of betrayal and cowardice on behalf of the board. I suspect that forcing Dean to close down PM's so abruptly is an act of self preservation on the behalf of a BOD that is faced with a potential groundswell against it. This act essentially strips members of the ability to contact one another freely and I would argue that it undermines democratic principles by disenfranchising the general membership of the society. The really depressing part of all this for me is that I fully support the work that the IPS does in regards to funding research, conservation, etc, and enjoy reading the magazine, including online back issues. I just dont understand why there has to be a void between science and hobby - the two streams of interest should be mutually supportive not antagonistic. The current board obviously has little understanding of what motivates a large percentage of its membership to join in the first place. Without renewal the society might go the way of Paschalococos disperta. The board will get emails from me, but they won't get my vote. The only question left is how do we get rid of these charming individuals now that we can't contact each other? I dont want to quit the IPS but nor can I tolerate tryranny. Cheers, Jonathan

- A few surprises awaited me in the yard, including this fruiting specimen. This is a mystery palm that has been in the collection since the early 1990's. It has been called Licuala sp. 'Fairchild' since Jeff collected the seed from a damaged palm during the Hurricane Andrew cleanup of 1992. The palm in the Fairchild garden was labeled just 'Licuala sp.'. The palm in the yard has finally set some seed so the legacy continues. - The palm has similarities to other species and may be one of them, but still looks a little different. - What a nice sight for a Palm person. - Back in Palm Circle, the Kerriodoxa elegans looks as 'elegant' as always. Ryan

Thanks for the video. Serbia looks like a very beautiful place.

I thought I had already checked in but apparently not. This is a good time though since I had feared the eminent death or, at least near death, of PalmTalk the way we knew and loved it. Looks like there's a second chance scenario here this time and maybe it will grow stronger as a result. Kudos to Dean! I will still check into Palmpedia frequently which I had sort of forgotten about over time but the PalmTalk fiasco reminded me. Let's hope there are never any more threats to our beloved forum's health. Same goes for our palms!

Can you explain what this means: "Although I am sure that we have some Directors that would like more exclusivity brought back to the IPS and look down upon PT". Why in the world would any academic or member from the scientific community want some sort of exclusivity? This makes no sense. Part of working in academia and within the scientific community is the necessity for outreach to lay people so that they properly understand the work that's being done. This helps with both IPS based and non-IPS based academic funding. Personally, I'd like to see PalmTalk have more of a focus on the importance of palms in the field of research, for example biodiversity and ethnobotany, not just palms in horticulture. The thing is, unless the segment of the IPS involved within the Scientific community gets involved with PalmTalk, this forum has little chance to spark the interests of folks other than in the context of gardening. Why isn't more infomation posted here about the results of IPS funded palm trips? What about sparking discussion related to matters published in the "Palms" journal.

I was out traveling last week and missed most of the emotional roller-coaster. The first post I read was Dean's "We are back to normal" and it took me most of the night to catch up to what was going on. I'm glad it's all over and the PM is back. I also want to thank Dean for everything he's done and is doing for our forum and most importantly for his leadership that made this forum what it is. I would like to ask everyone not to delete your photos or do anything else drastic like that. Here is my share of positive thoughts: Although I am sure that we have some Directors that would like more exclusivity brought back to the IPS and look down upon PT (great Happy Gilmore example joe_OC) it couldn't have been all or nearly all of the 20 people who voted to take away the PM. I think for most of them it was an unfortunate uninformed decision. The one they changed once more information was provided. I know some of these people and they are good people and they care. Having said when I vote, a major decision factor for me would be what a person thinks of PalmTalk. There is a concern that I have however. I want to make sure that our new leadership doesn't overreact and swing the pendulum the other way and do anything to hurt the scientific research funds and the magazine. We can't loose sight of how important those things are too. I may be the minority, but I basically read Palms from cover to cover every 3 months.

Buffy - I appreciate the sentiment - but for now I think that option is completely off the table so is moot point. So I am closing the thread so that we don't continue to fan the flames. At this point, I don't think that will be productive. But I will be the first to bring it back if the threat rematerializes.

Ehemm... I just deleted all my photos. I actually had lots of them. I think it's time to sign off this forum. I will move to Palmpedia too.

Thanks for the info on how to delete photos. I have 412 pages of attachments, maybe it's time to delete them and put my efforts into Palmpedia.

Do whatever you wish but I think on that end you're hurting PT members and no one else. A BOD member won't give two craps about if they can see your pictures, but I know of times where I've searched through posts to track the growth of some of your palms, which is useful information to have.

I use pics hosting websites such as photobucket and imageshack, so I can delete photos here on forum just by clicking delete button on pics in my albums on those websites, if I want...

Considering recent events have any of you PalmTalk members considered running for the board? There's power in numbers!!! I'm in! Randy

Under the present circumstances, I won't renew with the IPS. It's not just what was done, but the way it was done. Perhaps it is time to form a new organization devoted to Palm hobbyists. Anyone interested in the World Palm Society?

Beautiful garden Paul, great choice of Palms. With the recent high temps and low humidity in SE Qld/Nth NSW "proves" Bentinckia condapanna "does and looks best" esp when young in filtered light as the "very broad leaflets " bleach or are easily burned, heres 4 pics to show the "big difference" Pete

If they are worried about liability why not separate PT from IPS just like big company's do when they have multiple companies. Just make the IPS a sponsor of PT, If IPS want to see how much support they get from PT, they add a box to check when you pay dues, that states you are a PT member and pay dues to IPS to help support PT. OR have a link to pay dues from here so they know how much money they get from member here.

A bit more.

A little more

Thank you Eric...needed those photos! THis is the real palm encyclopedia,Palm Talk

Whose lawyer? Paid for by whom and by whose request did the opinion originate? Paid how much? Was this lawyer present in Peru? If so, paid for by whom? If not, who cross examined or got a second opinion? What were the opposing viewpoints? Lawyer are said to protect from risk, who was paid to present the opposing opportunity, lawyers generally don't do that.

I've taken the time to send an E-mail to several of the board members not active on PalmTalk. None so far have bothered to send a reply. I am not sure anyone cares to reach out to the membership.

Mike and I were up very late last night reading all of the posts and also wanted to know what the IPS mission statement is so we looked on the IPS website. Here it is: The International Palm Society, Inc. is operated solely and exclusively for scientific and/or educational purposes related to the study of palms, their propagation, culture, conservation, care, and development. PT has been very educational for me. How about you? I buy and read almost every palm book I hear about but I also learn a lot from this forum....and have a good time while I'm doing it. Also, sometimes the books contain information that is more technical than my current level of plam knowledge. PT makes topics more alive and interesting and inspires me to wade through those heavy tomes to learn more. Obviously the books are invaluable but I believe the number of people reading them is far smaller than the people participating on palm talk. Also, I haven't heard many conversations between palm lovers that are at the same detail level as the books are. What I hear is a lot of passion and enthusiasm which leads to the purchase and growth of palms. Obviously science and research is very important to the preservation of the genus, but what good is the knowledge if people don't buy, grow and propagate them? The people on PT are contributing something very important!!!! Let's not the board let them change it or take it away.

The IPS was started to study, find ,and save rare and endangered species . What better way of trading these species to every part of the globe than PT and starting them in like environements. Iam just saying what is there real reason. I wouldn't know how others in my community are doing with certain species. unless I had away to reach these people and trade plants and knowledge. PT IS MUCH MORE USEFUL TO US THAN SOME MAGAZINE ABOUT 5 PLANTS AT TIME. NO PT NO IPS

How many PT members are IPS members? I was an IPS member before, but chose to not renew because I got more value from PT alone. I did contribute to PT, but it looks like I should have stayed with the IPS to have a voice. What's frustrating is how the IPS Officers / Executives / Directors are not very accessible. There is no transparency and very little communications with it's members. Why not use PT as the vehicle to do this? Meeting minutes, a running balance should all be made available. As an IPS member, you vote for the Directors and Officers, but how much input do members have on policy? They really don't have to answer to the members, do they?

To be more specific, how many IPS members who are active on PT are willing to be on the BOD?

I'm a director and the biggest PT junkie of all . . .

BOD to the Palmtalk minions.... "Let them eat cake!"

Hello guys, I am quite shocked to hear that and I want to share my opinion. Without palmtalk and personal messenger which is my most used part of palmtalk nowadays I would not be able to develop my friendship with people I met here. I know that the forum hosting costs as much as many benefits you have such as chat and PM service but I haven't become an IPS member to hear my favourite is going to get this possibility removed. If the problem is money, this is not going to save it. Regards, Andrew

It would be nice to have a list of those who voted against Palmtalk.

For sure Dooms Dave and I did not go and that both of us would have voted not to stop PM's. I am not sure who the votes came from but I hope that some of them may change their minds. Like many non profit groups we are relatively new to the use of the internet and since we don't have high paid advisers we have done what we can "on our own" to stay current. We will make mistakes from time to time and I hope this one is easily corrected and that IPS benefits greatly from it. If any of you are interested in the history, mission, fundraising, accounting, or chairmanship of the IPS we always need Board members. There are often spaces left unfilled!

Palmtalk = International palm hobbyists IPS BODs = (For the most Part) Elitist palm society members As long as they get their endowments, memberships don't mean a thing to them. They want to make the IPS a MORE exclusive society. Even if you want to be on the IPS BOD, they make the cost of entry so high, that many are turned off by it.

Reading between the lines on some other posts, I get the idea that Peru was an expensive trip to make and several Directors could not afford it, and therefore did not vote. Was it planned that way to weed out certain votes? We know through Bo's post who is WITH PalmTalk. We need to know who voted against it.

From a post by Kim: Duties and expectations of the IPS Directors: The Board of 34 Directors has general charge of the affairs and business of the Society including the management of the Society’s funds. Directors are expected to take an active role in Board activities by serving on appropriate committees set up for specific tasks and concerns. The Board meets once a year, at the Biennial meeting or at an Interim Meeting. An ability and willingness to travel to all (or most) of the annual Board Meetings at the Director’s own expense is, by necessity, a strong consideration used by the Nominating Committee when selecting candidates. Directors are also expected to be accessible by e mail. 34 Directors? and only 5 voted in favor of PT keeping IM/PM's? Is something else going on here? That is just bizarre that 29 people would be that out of touch with the online activities of PT. The odds of electing enough PT friendly folks to seem to be insurmountable.

It would be a very good idea for the PalmTalk membership (IPS or not) to become more educated about the relationship between the IPS and PalmTalk. You will find a lot of information in the top forum, IPS - International Palm Society. Minutes from the board meeting will be posted there when they become available, and the financial statement for the IPS will be published in Palms at some future date. We have a nice little palm playground here; while it is free for anyone to use, it is not FREE. The IPS will spend $11,200 on PalmTalk in 2014. This is partially offset by advertising revenue, so far from a single source, of $1,900. In 2012 advertising revenue was $4,000, but some have elected not to renew. You will recall the PalmTalk fundraiser in January 2013, which was very successful, raising about $1,900 in donations, plus additional funds from book sales, new memberships, and early renewals, bringing the total closer to $4,800. As a Director on the Board, I take the position that PalmTalk is the best advertising for the IPS that money can buy. I also take the position that PalmTalk does an extraordinarily good job of fulfilling the Education role for the IPS Mission Statement. I also take the position that PalmTalk is the very best way to make the IPS truly international. I am only one voice on the Board, and while there are several others with similar opinions, we are in the minority, sad to say. In the last election, even with a contested election for one Directorship, there were under 100 votes cast. If you want to be part of the solution, please, vote for the candidates who participate on PalmTalk. We have tremendous strength here, but it goes untapped. Your vote can really, truly make a difference. It is not good enough to participate here and ignore the organization that supports PalmTalk. In the IPS forum, (top of main page) I described my work on the Board and asked for nomination from you, the PalmTalk membership. While several people thanked me for my service not a single person has offered to nominate me. Apathy will not help PalmTalk to survive. Please participate in the Board selection process, don't think someone else is going to do it for you. It is all in your hands.

I am looking forward to voting for Len, BGL, Kim, Toby, Jack/el Hoagie and Tim/realarch next election. Any one running that post on Palm talk regularly will get my vote as well! The other existing BOD's will see my boot... If we fail to save Palm Talk I am out! Randy

Very,very interesting Bo. There seems to be two issues here, the main one being that PM's be continued or taken away altogether. And the second, and maybe not so serious would be the issue of taking away PalmTalk for good. And IMO, that would hurt the IPS in more ways than one. And it's good to know that transparency comes with no filters. Elections are coming up, so everyone that can, PLEASE vote, and vote for who you know would be the best possible canidate and do the best for the IPS. I have often thought of running myself, but after doing so in the mid 90's, and getting beat by two unknowns and that they are now looooooong gone, I still have a sour taste in my mouth. Also the BOD meetings in between the Biennials are costly and at this moment , it would be very hard to justify going to some exotic place on earth, instead of buying more potting soil, fertilizer, employee wages, etc. You get the picture. And I sincerely apologize for this.

I am still in Peru and do not have the time to read all the posts here, nor the time to respond properly so just a quick couple of comments: Transparency is important. What happened during the BOD meeting WILL be made known here. Five Directors voted against shutting down the PM system (myself, Kim, Toby, Jack/elHoagie and Tim/realarch). Everybody else voted in favor of shutting it down. An election is coming up soon, with Directors for the 2014-2018 period to be voted in. Deadline for nominations is Nov. 20th, so still time. Having more Directors on the Board who understand the value of PalmTalk will be of great help. There WILL be dedicated threads here on PT about who is running, and we hope all who are active here will participate in the election. Every IPS member will have a voice and this is the perfect time to make use of it. More when I get home.

Before joining PalmTalk, I was a lurker. PalmTalk is vast and thoroughly packed with info---it took me a while to actually join PalmTalk because I lacked confidence and was pretty overwhelmed. After joining PalmTalk, I made a donation because of the education PalmTalk provides and promotes is world wide first class. I didn't become a member of IPS only because I am still an amateur to palms and thought it'd be smarter to join the local chapter first: learn local then learn global. But now......I'm rethinking my stance. I think it'd be smarter to join IPS and so then to gain the right to vote for PalmTalk people for BoD. This seems a smarter way to go, right.....btw....I hope to not lose any IM...or is it called PM...anyway.....you do not want me to go on and on about menopause in public, do you???? lol!!

The Board of Directors must CHANGE! Please vote! Leave Palmtalk as is, or LOSE MY MEMBERSHIP! Ed

I too,only joined IPS out of gratitude for providing and letting me use this wonderful forum which has helped me immensely in multiple ways,from learning how to grow palms successfully,how to create microclimates and how palm growing works out with them even in less than ideal climates,as well as in acquiring palms and other plants that are normally difficult to get and find. I have very high respect for PalmTalk and its moderators and out of gratitude,joined IPS years ago. But i dont benefit anywhere near as much from any other aspect of IPS as i do from PalmTalk. The Palms magazine is nice and a pleasant read but rarely do i get any practical info out of it or contains species i really like and want to carefully read about their scientific descriptions. Nice magazine but not enough to pay the membership! My renewal month is near so this came just in time...If something happens to PalmTalk,i doubt i will consider renewing...It was all for PalmTalk and its members,for all the friendships i have formed and knowledge i have gained... With respect, -Konstantinos Giannopoulos giannopouloskonstantinos@gmail.com

I am sure that most of us here on Palmtalk are used to living in democratic societies where our vote is our most effective way to have our say! With this in mind the timing of this shocking news probably could not be better, it seems nominations and elections of the BOD are almost upon us. After reading Lee's post above I remembered reading Kim's thread a short while ago in another section of Palmtalk. I have just re-read that thread and have found some very wise comments from our beloved Mod. I hope you don't mind me posting this here Mr Mod, if you do please feel free to modify this post as you see fit!! The following is a quote from our Moderator from another thread..... "I don't think it improper if I make my thoughts known regarding the pending IPS elections. Of course, the more candidates and member voters that become involved the better. My primary concern is to assure that the IPS Board of Directors realize the value of PalmTalk and continue their support. Toward that end, I would like to offer my endorsement to those candidates who have some familiarity with PalmTalk. Kim is very involved with PT, and there are others. I would welcome any IPS Member here who would consider serving on the Board as a candidate. And I think most PT users would as well. It is no secret that I would like to see more IPS Directors use and participate on PalmTalk. That is what will assure their continued support. So, either existing Directors begin using PalmTalk, or we elect existing PalmTalk users as Directors. So feel free to use this venue to campaign for votes should you chose to throw your hat in the ring." End quote... I for one will be very happy to make sure that my vote goes to a Palmtalk regular!! In future I can be found at beenjamin0@hotmail.com

I am a Director. I have been a member for almost 30 years. I know the history of the IPS. The BOD meeting was in the rain forest of deep Eastern Peru. It was in such a ridiculous location that I could not afford to go. I'm sure that members had their minds on touring more than IPS business but a few of them must of had their agendas all set so they could take yet another shot a ending PalmTalk. Lawyers were used to develop a contract (after all these years!) to offer the person that currently runs PalmTalk who BTW has his signature on everything from the passwords to the checks to pay for it. I don't think the contract worked. We will be able to see who voted and how when the minutes come out. Since our organization is based in Florida we fall under the sunshine law which says that all non-profits must keep all their records public. I have no problem posting the minutes and any associated emails or recordings here on PalmTalk. Yes, most of the meeting have recorders present. Just ask and you shall receive.

In the grand scheme of things I personally believe the IPS needs Palm Talk more than Palm Talk needs the IPS. Membership, broad levels of palm education, timely information, palm contacts, palm friendships, etc. are all generated through Palm Talk. The IPS and its journal do none of that. Possibly the trail dust from the wheels of the Board’s covered wagons has obscured the reality that the rest of us have entered the electronic age.

Some people just dont get it. As a non IPS member I dont have a right to discuss BOD politics but U guys can vote them out. Living in area where many enthusiasts cant afford any internet memberships I would like to add that IPS would loose international touch making PT a PPV forum. This is a free World and with all this contacts we all have here somewhere will be new "PT" forum made in no time and no meter where. THANK YOU PALMTALK for introducing all this WONDERFUL and HELPFUL people ALL OVER THE WORLD Ante Grbavac dalmatiansoap@gmail.com

Being a non-member forum user I was always under the illusion that palm talk was the nucleus of IPS. Considering our main form of communication is via email/internet now days, I would have thought that most IPS members use this forum. Is that not the case? Are there loads of members who do not use this forum? And many directors? How do they communicate? Aren't societies all about discussing and sharing of ideas and information of common interest? Seems bizarre that many of the directors aren't involved in the forum.

Like soooo many of my friends here on PalmTalk. If it goes away, so does my membership to the IPS.

I agree with Matt! I was a board 'voyeur' for almost 2 years before I decided to join this forum and get involved and it was only recently that I decided to take the plunge and become an IPS member. Ok, maybe some restrictions could be applied to non IPS members, i.e the amount of posts they can leave on the boards or preventing access to certain features, but blocking non members completely or removing features that many people enjoy using is simply self defeating and will result in a mass exodus to another forum or board.

one is PC & one is MAC

This is the color green I need to collect so I can add to the other shades of green...

Hi Kim, what a wonderful thread you've started here and one that'll go down in Palmtalk archives. Who doesn't like all shades of green around here? These are a few of my recent favorites. Peter