Coccothrinax mystery

[Al in Kona]

Below are 4- photos I just took of a Coccothrinax sp. growing in the garden that I really find attractive but don't know what it is.  When it was a bit smaller I had asked what some of you thought it might be and a few suggested perhaps it was in the C. barbadensis complex despite the fact that I purchased it as a tiny seedling with the tag of Coccothrinax scoparia, which apparently was wrong.  There's always a chance it could be a hybrid also.  

Please look it over and give me your input on what you think, especially those of you who have experienced seeing or been around a lot of the Coccothrinax.

This palm stands at about 2m (6.5 ft.)

[Al in Kona]

A closer look at it

[Al in Kona]

a pic of just one leaf, most of which measure about 1.2m (4 ft.) wide.

[Al in Kona]

lower trunk detail

[Carlo Morici]

Beautiful and lush. Are the central segments much more joined than the others?

Carlo

[Jeff Wilson]

My Coccothrinax barbadensis looks very similar. It's the reason I concluded in the past that yours was the same or possibly a hybrid. C. barbadensis will grow at a fast rate. Has the light green fronds with green undersides, somewhat limp fronds, almost perfect, circular arrangement of leaflets around the yellow/orange hastula. Here are some photos for comparison. These were taken today - 01.02.2008. Couldn't get really nice shots of my C. barbadensis as it's growing among other various species: Syagrus sp, Cocos nucifera....it's just a mess. Had to trim the lowermost fronds on this palm as it was shading my other guys, but it can hold a number of fronds at the same time if I left it alone. This one's only been in the ground since Spring 2004, and was at the time only 2.5', but now is over 7'.

Carlo's honestly better able to differentiate what it might be crossed with.....

All things considered, still seems to be mostly Coccothrinax barbadensis in my humble opinion.

Please correct me if I'm wrong---

Jeff

[Breadfruit Bill]

I'm voting hybrid... Always seems a safe bet with Coccothrinax...

[Carlo Morici]

I don't know what it is; it can be a hybrid, probably of C. barbadensis. It is not a typical C.barbadensis, it has a metallic shine and stiffer segments. I still feel something of C.scoparia and I don't know what it is. If it was initially labeled as C.scoparia, there might have been a reason. It could be from a cultivated C. scoparia mother, pollinated by a neighbouring C. barbadensis. This is why I wish to know if Al's plant has a "jump" in the palman, being the central segments more fused than the neighboring ones, as it is typical of C. scoparia in all stages of development. Also, Al, there is no "barbadensis complex", in fact C.barbadensis looks quite isolated in the genus and there are no complexes in Coccothrinax. Species can be roughly grouped following sections and subsections; pauciramosae, multiramosae, longispadiceae...

Carlo

[Al in Kona]

Perhaps these extra photos might help to solve the identification of this Coccothrinax, as I'm not real sure just what Carlo is asking me about a - "jump" in the palman.

I'm inclined to think this could possibly be a hybrid of C. scoparia and C. barbadensis since it was labeled C. scoparia to begin with.  Anyway, here are a few more photos of it.  Does this help any Carlo?

[Al in Kona]

#2

[Al in Kona]

#3

[Al in Kona]

underside of leaf - in shade . . .

[Al in Kona]

underside of leaf - with sunlight on it . . .

[Carlo Morici]

I am sorry, I can't see in your pictures the sinus of the central segments, you cut just that part off.

In true C.scoparia (and few other species), the two or three central segments are much less deeply divided than the neighbouring ones. So, the palman (=the blade of fused segments, excluding the free tips) is not "round" and has a sudden "beak" in the middle, because the central segments are much more united than the rest. It is the only scoparia trait that I can think of, with colour and leaf stiffness, among so many barbadensis features.

Carlo

[mike in kurtistown]

Carlo, can you explain the nouns/adjectives "pauciramosae, multiramosae, and longispadiceae"? Is it generally possible to distinguish among the Coccothrinax species by leaf shape or other vegetative characteristics?

[Palmetro]

(Mike in Kurtisstown @ Jan. 03 2008,19:56)

QUOTE

Have no clue what it is.. but is just beautifull!!!!!!!

[Carlo Morici]

The genus Coccothrinax is a mess of messes. Half of the information is not written and the other half is scattered in too many scientific papers. Borhidi and Muñiz, in 1982, organised the Cuban species in groups. Far from being a good taxonomy, it is still a reasonable way of grouping species, the closest thing to "species complex". They defined so:

Section Longispadiceae

Subsection Longispadiceae (robust palms with highly branched 8-10 partial inflorescences)

Subsection Pauciramosae (Small palms with little branched 1-7 partial inflorescences)

Section Coccothrinax

Subsection Coccothrinax (Short inflorescences, curved or hanging in fruit, 2ndry rachillae curved, membranaceous external "spathes")

Subsection Haitiella (Same as above but ovarium muricate, not smooth, just includes C.munizii... and C.ekmanii!)

And yes, is it generally possible to distinguish among the Coccothrinax species by leaf shape or other vegetative characteristics. I can tell apart the ones I have grown once they are above their fourth year, especially the most extreme species, usually the hard-leaved narrow-endemics. You really have to know well the seedlings because many go through some unexpected changes in morphology while they go through their establishment phase. On the other hand, the floppy leaved species are much, much harder to recognize when young (fragrans, spissa, proctorii, litoralis, barbadensis, argentata, hioramii...). Little is known about hybrids and only wild guessing matters.

Carlo

[mike in kurtistown]

Thanks, Carlo, I am encouraged to try to learn more.