Winter is when ghosts come out

[Than]

37 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

That's what I try always to point out!  Now go figure out what advantage it may create a black soil fabric laid around the root zone. But you need sunny day and southern exposure (in northern hemisphere)

So true. I'll get some black geotextile which allows water to go through. Do you live it on the ground 24/7 during winter?

[Than]

On 12/18/2025 at 10:22 AM, Phoenikakias said:

Aha, I think I can detect some sympathy on your behalf to this person, like me with Gergiopoulos par exemple (actually I hold no animosity, I find him rather amusing 🤡). Try to find posts by Kevin Spence in the EPS. He protects his more tender palms every winter only overhead through seasonally permanent constructions and it has worked perfectly. Apparently the location of your property further inland in a plain is not exposed to strong wind, which enables you to plug in to the soil 4 posts around each plant and nail a polycarbonate roof on top of them.

Just seen this. I'll look it up.

I'm inside a valley and most days are not windy indeed although the southern wind can get strong some days. I think the wind direction being parallel to the direction of the valley accelerates its speed 

[Phoenikakias]

5 minutes ago, Than said:

So true. I'll get some black geotextile which allows water to go through. Do you live it on the ground 24/7 during winter?

All year round.  In summer sun has a higher trajectory and created canopy prevents overheating of soil, which remains nevertheless moist for a longer time.

[Phoenikakias]

10 minutes ago, Than said:

I'm attaching a photo of my thermometer this dawn. Inside the fleece and right outside. Ground level. 

 

Wow, quite low...

[Than]

35 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

Wow, quite low...

That's not from the dawn though, right? Mine was from something like 6.30am.

[Than]

2 hours ago, Harry’s Palms said:

Great news! That should do it as long as there is sun to warm up your heaters. I used 1 gallon bottles that I would set in the sun while I was out surfing . Surprising how warm the water was when I used it to rinse the salt water off after a session in our cold Pacific Ocean. It felt like heaven . I imagine that’s how your palms feel. Harry

Indeed. I'm curious to see if the sun warms up the bottle even on cold days. 

When there is no sun there is no problem usually cos the clouds do the job. It only gets very cold here when the sky is clear. 

The real challenge will be a clear sky night after a cloudy day... for that scenario I'm not prepared. Perhaps I'll just fill the bottles with hot water from my bath tap.

[Mazat]

52 minutes ago, Than said:

I'm attaching a photo of my thermometer this dawn. Inside the fleece and right outside. Ground level. 

 

That's exactly the same as for me, 3 degrees Celsius is a world of difference. That's why this huge effort on our balcony works so well, several layers of fleece and behind that, insulation boards... sagex panels

Well done, Than 🤗

[Than]

3 minutes ago, Mazat said:

huge effort

That is so true. I have spent hours working (and lots of cash) lately to protect my plants. However, it honestly makes me happy; the process of removing weeds, exposing the soil, applying mulch (and removing it when I realized it was a mistake), setting up the fleece and the geotextile... all this lifts my mood. 

[Phoenikakias]

32 minutes ago, Than said:

That is so true. I have spent hours working (and lots of cash) lately to protect my plants. However, it honestly makes me happy; the process of removing weeds, exposing the soil, applying mulch (and removing it when I realized it was a mistake), setting up the fleece and the geotextile... all this lifts my mood. 

Dude, it is invaluable.

[Phoenikakias]

1 hour ago, Than said:

That's not from the dawn though, right? Mine was from something like 6.30am.

Hmm I think you read wrong values in the display. On the  far left side you can read ALL Day Hi (purple color) and Lo (blue color) temp values. Each day begins at 0:00 am and ends by beginning of the next one. Also recorded absolute temp values are kept in memory, only during the duration of the respective day. The begins a new record. And as the low of every day usually occurs at or just before dawn, the recorded Lo of 10 C must have been recorded and memorized at that time. But have no illusions, nor do I, one day sooner or later it will come doom in the form of an advection cold spell, which will wipe out all tender palms and other tropicals in my garden. And all that will remain is the legend that once there was a palmy paradise in the area...

[gyuseppe]

24 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

Hmm I think you read wrong values in the display. On the  far left side you can read ALL Day Hi (purple color) and Lo (blue color) temp values. Each day begins at 0:00 am and ends by beginning of the next one. Also recorded absolute temp values are kept in memory, only during the duration of the respective day. The begins a new record. And as the low of every day usually occurs at or just before dawn, the recorded Lo of 10 C must have been recorded and memorized at that time. But have no illusions, nor do I, one day sooner or later it will come doom in the form of an advection cold spell, which will wipe out all tender palms and other tropicals in my garden. And all that will remain is the legend that once there was a palmy paradise in the area...

As happened in my garden in January 2017, we had record cold, -5.6 degrees Celsius, I have never seen these temperatures in my life, and the cold has destroyed many species

[Than]

1 hour ago, Phoenikakias said:

Hmm I think you read wrong values in the display. On the  far left side you can read ALL Day Hi (purple color) and Lo (blue color) temp values. Each day begins at 0:00 am and ends by beginning of the next one. Also recorded absolute temp values are kept in memory, only during the duration of the respective day. The begins a new record. And as the low of every day usually occurs at or just before dawn, the recorded Lo of 10 C must have been recorded and memorized at that time. But have no illusions, nor do I, one day sooner or later it will come doom in the form of an advection cold spell, which will wipe out all tender palms and other tropicals in my garden. And all that will remain is the legend that once there was a palmy paradise in the area...

10 C was your lowest? Wow. I get 5 C every night the last 10 days.

Do you believe me now when I say my climate is cold??

[Harry’s Palms]

My little 2-3 degree ( Fahrenheit) difference of my south facing location is substantial. On our coldest winters it kept the frost away. Now , with a lot of larger palms around it seems like I can grow more species. Harry

[Phoenikakias]

2 hours ago, Than said:

10 C was your lowest? Wow. I get 5 C every night the last 10 days.

Do you believe me now when I say my climate is cold??

Actually palms do not care much about average temps in particular during a season, when tropical plants would rather slow down their growth. What kills them are extreme temps both high and low. And in this respect I fear I do not have an advantage. Instead a -3 C accompanied with frozen snow will be a mass extinction event, whether in 5 or 10 or 20 years. What matters really to me is that many beautiful plants have an expire date in my garden. If you do not experience icy snow in your area, you have an enormous advantage on long term.

[Than]

31 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

Actually palms do not care much about average temps in particular during a season, when tropical plants would rather slow down their growth. What kills them are extreme temps both high and low. And in this respect I fear I do not have an advantage. Instead a -3 C accompanied with frozen snow will be a mass extinction event, whether in 5 or 10 or 20 years. What matters really to me is that many beautiful plants have an expire date in my garden. If you do not experience icy snow in your area, you have an enormous advantage on long term.

Not sure what you mean by icy snow. Like frost? Πάχνη; Locals told me it used to be frequent in the past but rare now. They call it "λευκόπαγος". 

[Phoenikakias]

1 hour ago, Than said:

Not sure what you mean by icy snow. Like frost? Πάχνη; Locals told me it used to be frequent in the past but rare now. They call it "λευκόπαγος". 

Yes, snow that had settled on fronds and afterwards instead of melting away a slightly below zero temperature prevails, which turns soft snow to ice. With a slightly subzero temperature alone for some hours many 10A palms would not even blink, put to the equation additionally  transformed snow to ice on the leaves and kaboom, you have the effect of a 9A climate!

[Than]

1 minute ago, Phoenikakias said:

Yes, snow that had settled on fronds and afterwards instead of melting away a slightly below zero temperature prevails, which turns soft snow to ice. With a slightly subzero temperature alone for some hours many 10A palms would not even blink, put to the equation additionally  transformed snow to ice on the leaves and kaboom, you have the effect of a 9A climate!

Oh OK, so you are talking about something else. Snow first and then it turns into ice. That must be very rare where you are too! How often does it snow in Athens marina? Once every 15 years? And then how often is that snow followed by minus temperatures? Very rarely, right? Can't you spray the leaves with smth that will dry them out if it snows?

[Phoenikakias]

13 minutes ago, Than said:

Oh OK, so you are talking about something else. Snow first and then it turns into ice. That must be very rare where you are too! How often does it snow in Athens marina? Once every 15 years? And then how often is that snow followed by minus temperatures? Very rarely, right? Can't you spray the leaves with smth that will dry them out if it snows?

It had snowed three years on the row downtown (21, 22, 23),  especially the 22 snowfall lasted two days but on the coast snow amount just happened to be lower compared to the quantity city center received. Suffice to to say that in my balcony it did not thaw even after 4 days and to my horror under the soft upper layer there had been pure ice, which could easily cause you a frost bite on hands. Eventually I had to use tap water from the hose in order to remove it. Best method is the mechanical removal of snow from the leaves, but one has to live there. Mine is only a weekend house unfortunately and you know that by settled snow driving in Athens is dangerous to impossible. So I can not even drive to my garden.

[Than]

36 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

It had snowed three years on the row downtown (21, 22, 23),  especially the 22 snowfall lasted two days but on the coast snow amount just happened to be lower compared to the quantity city center received. Suffice to to say that in my balcony it did not thaw even after 4 days and to my horror under the soft upper layer there had been pure ice, which could easily cause you a frost bite on hands. Eventually I had to use tap water from the hose in order to remove it. Best method is the mechanical removal of snow from the leaves, but one has to live there. Mine is only a weekend house unfortunately and you know that by settled snow driving in Athens is dangerous to impossible. So I can not even drive to my garden.

Ouch.. turns out we are both in cold-ish spots haha. Yet your temperatures are milder thanks to the sea. I don't think it snows often here.. probably very rarely. Last time was 4 January 2019 but dunno the temperatures and whether it stuck.

[Mazat]

18 hours ago, Than said:

Ouch.. turns out we are both in cold-ish spots haha. Yet your temperatures are milder thanks to the sea. I don't think it snows often here.. probably very rarely. Last time was 4 January 2019 but dunno the temperatures and whether it stuck.

You both, and especially Konstantinos, are really enjoying the mild winter temperatures, which makes me very happy. I hope the weather stays nice for you too,Than. Spring is coming here—no, unfortunately not, but today is really nice and so far, except for once, the temperatures have been mild...

And there had already been snow, although it didn't stay long and was gone again within a day ...

 

[Phoenikakias]

26 minutes ago, Mazat said:

You both, and especially Konstantinos, are really enjoying the mild winter temperatures, which makes me very happy. I hope the weather stays nice for you too,Than. Spring is coming here—no, unfortunately not, but today is really nice and so far, except for once, the temperatures have been mild...

And there had already been snow, although it didn't stay long and was gone again within a day ...

 

Your good weather is meaning imminent trouble for us down in southeast. This is how weather pattern almost always works in Europe.

[Phoenikakias]

On 12/18/2025 at 9:36 AM, Than said:

The fortune of living in zone 10.. you can have enough wonderful species without pushing the zone (much). We in zone 9 though need to do some serious zone pushing if we want to see a crownshaft!

 

On 12/18/2025 at 10:24 AM, Phoenikakias said:

Well not entirely so.  An A. cunninghamiana or an Albang will probably thrive without any winter protection.

 

On 12/18/2025 at 10:30 AM, Than said:

Never heard of Albang before; I had to google to see what it is! Is it smth you find in Greek nurseries? I only see Alexandras every time I go to one and the owner always says "this is too sensitive to cold" and I wanna scream "then why don't you bring Cunninghamianas instead???" 😆

Anyway, my point was that it would be nice to have some more variety in zone 9 but it is what it is.

 

On 12/18/2025 at 11:02 AM, Phoenikakias said:

rps are offering right now Albang seeds. The greatest disadvantage of cunninhamiana is that it is very tender to strong wind and very dry air. Unfortunately both coblnditions are present in my garden during summer and therefore I can grow one only in very protected spots. A rather exposed Albang instead survives and grows but it looks like sh* most of the time; suffice to say that it is producing new fronds right now after the recent heavy downpours and low temps! All summer long it stood idle and older leaves died in a slow decline mode. Btw what is the air humidity right now in your place? In my garden it is 58%!

 

On 12/18/2025 at 1:17 PM, Than said:

Hmmmm my cunninhams kept growing during summer but they are under thick canopy. They are still growing a new leaf now. Humidity right now at 1.15pm is 67% and temperature is 18.5 C

This is the Albang in my garden. Hardships from past summer are still visible...

And this is the protected cunninhamiana with very apparent the traces of past summer's heat on foliage.

Best performer has been the illawarra

[Than]

Albang looks nice indeed. I would've thought it's an Alexandrae! 

That Cunninghamiana will look awesome with a tree above. 

[Than]

1 hour ago, Mazat said:

You both, and especially Konstantinos, are really enjoying the mild winter temperatures, which makes me very happy. I hope the weather stays nice for you too,Than. Spring is coming here—no, unfortunately not, but today is really nice and so far, except for once, the temperatures have been mild...

And there had already been snow, although it didn't stay long and was gone again within a day ...

 

UV index 0.5! Quite dark must be!

[Mazat]

1 hour ago, Phoenikakias said:

Your good weather is meaning imminent trouble for us down in southeast. This is how weather pattern almost always works in Europe.

Yes, the other side of the coin, so to speak 🤔

[Mazat]

27 minutes ago, Than said:

UV index 0.5! Quite dark must be!

Yes, unfortunately 🤔

[Mazat]

I've never liked winter, not even as a child, even though agriculture can look pretty when it's covered in snow...

[Mazat]

And tomorrow, Sunday, is the shortest day, so things can only get better in every respect 🌴🌻

[Mazat]

58 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

 

 

 

 

This is the Albang in my garden. Hardships from past summer are still visible...

And this is the protected cunninhamiana with very apparent the traces of past summer's heat on foliage.

Best performer has been the illawarra

Great pictures, Konstantinos 🤗 

[Than]

Winter solstice! I celebrate it every year by lighting candles and Xmas lights. I'll light a big fire too in the stove this year haha. You are invited for local wine, chestnuts and palm talk!

[Phoenikakias]

1 hour ago, Mazat said:

I've never liked winter, not even as a child, even though agriculture can look pretty when it's covered in snow...

I can not blame you. If you work, snow is a nuisance and obstruction in several aspects. 

[Than]

I applied black geotextile around my sensitive plants today, as per your suggestion!