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Please stop moving polar vortex event threads to 'Weather' forum!


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Posted

The cold hardy palm forum is a community where, by definition, people discuss how palms interact with cold weather events. Its is also a place where, as a community, we can come together and complain about these dreadful events that keep happening. That is what these threads are mostly about. In fact, I think for its frequenters, threads like these are among the most essential for the Cold Hardy palm community! 

Moving them to a forum down the list called 'Weather' seems potentially misleading and may make users not find critical threads that contain lots of information on how palms interact with specific weather events as well as miss a place for some shared grief (or joy).

These threads aren't isolated discussion about 'weather' or climate. I understand that we need a place for the weather nuts, and questions on climate change, but I think moving threads that discuss peoples cold hardy palm trees goes too far. At the moment, a thread that got dozens of responses a day is being moved to an obscure place. It took myself, a regular user of this forum, a while to find it again.  

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Posted

I like the move.  It's a "Weather / Climate" related issue as the sub-forum indicates.

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Posted

I agree with Swolte

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Posted

Agree with Swolte

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Posted
17 hours ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

I like the move.  It's a "Weather / Climate" related issue as the sub-forum indicates.

Agree...  Weather related topics = in the Weather forum ..Where they belong..

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Posted
2 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Agree...  Weather related topics = in the Weather forum ..Where they belong..

The topic of "polar vortex" is weather related as you say. Cold Hardy palm forum is, as the subforum implies, "Selecting and growing palms for colder climates." . The casual or passing comment about weather is expected, not entire topics devoted to a weather event.

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Posted
21 hours ago, Swolte said:

...It took myself, a regular user of this forum, a while to find it again.  

I believe this should have been moved in the early going rather than wait until the posting was what, 18 pages long?

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Posted

I can see the reasons why it could fit here but disagree for the reasons mentioned above (and many others*). I still find it hard to imagine (ever wonder why the vast majority of large, viral threads are moved here?) but I respect different perspectives.

It actually does make me feel a bit better that there are others who think it does belong in Weather. I find these vortex event threads to be about way more than just weather and I was concerned for the Cold Hardy Palm community losing out here. But it looks like there's a good chunk of people, who actually DO post regularly in the Cold hardy forum, that actively advocate for these threads belonging here instead!

* For example, here's another one. Where do I post the damage to my palms from these events? Every event is unique. It isn't just the ultimate low but also duration, snowfall, post-warm up, etc... this can all matter! For documentation purposes, the damage to specific palms is part of the story of that weather event.  These are connected! So, should I post that in the cold hardy forum as a separate post and reiterate all the weather events in detail?

* Naming a forum 'Weather' presupposed for some that the forum isn't about palms but about weather. Just like the community forum isn't about palms but about the people; and the meeting date forum isn't about palms but meetings. See the potential for confusion?

Rename this forum [Weather events and Palms], move it up a bit, and I won't have a problem! Most people may actually start their vortex threads here!

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Posted

Your post, which has been great so far, combined a discussion on how palm growers are dealing with the past week's weather event with a discussion on protecting palms from polar vortexes, so it really straddles both categories. Aside from people posting once or twice about the protections they used for this polar vortex, most of the posts have been about weather and discussions about cold events in North America. Way more posts in the thread about current temperatures, air patterns, how many inches of snow than there are posts about frost cloth or tarps or christmas lights.

Also the Weather forum is not obscure. It is one of the most popular forums with 74,000 posts.

Just my thoughts

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Posted

I agree, that's mostly why I check this website. Updates on palms after these events are also great to figure out what palms are best for people's gardens.

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Posted
26 minutes ago, Ivanos1982 said:

I agree, that's mostly why I check this website. ...

What are you agreeing with? There are a variety of opinions preceding your post.

Posted
14 hours ago, Swolte said:

Rename this forum [Weather events and Palms], move it up a bit, and I won't have a problem! Most people may actually start their vortex threads here!

Sub-forums already exist that cover weather events and palms (worldwide & hardy). Should we get rid of those and combine the two topics? You're asking in this title to "Please stop moving polar vortex event threads to 'Weather' forum. A polar vortex is a weather event. If the title subject matter was "My palms during a polar vortex", then it has the subject matter in the title to support it remaining in Hardy Palms. It's the wording and subject matter in the title that warrants the move to it's respective place within the forums.

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Posted
11 hours ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

Sub-forums already exist that cover weather events and palms (worldwide & hardy). Should we get rid of those and combine the two topics?

Not sure I am following you here. You were arguing that threads that cover weather events and palms (like the polar vortex threads) before should be in Weather, right? But these polar event threads that are in the Cold hardy palm forum are about how people who grow palms in areas that get freezes (e.g., cold hardy palms) respond to these weather events. In my view, these threads are stories from this community that have an arc. First, it starts with weather predictions and related uncertainty, then people decide what palms to protect or not (and how), then the storm hits and detailed weather information is combined with pictures of peoples palms in snow, then there's sharing of grief or relief about their palms, then the thread will turn more into a discussion of what palms did well with what protections, etc...  

I mean, com'on, I get the other side of the argument but don't you agree a forum just called Weather can be misleading? Whereas it is unavoidable for a community that grows hardy palms and zone-pushes, NOT to discuss weather at length. 

11 hours ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

It's the wording and subject matter in the title that warrants the move to it's respective place within the forums.

I get your point regarding the title of this thread and I would probably would change it (along with the somewhat frustrated tone) if I had the chance.  But the thread in question that was moved had - are you protecting your palms - in the title! 

Regardless, even if it didn't, I still think it would be a better fit not in Weather for reasons mentioned. In fact, I'd even prefer it in the Palms Worldwide forum that 'Weather'!

If we have:
[Cold hardy palms] Discussion about palms that regularly see freeze events.

[Weather events and palms] Discussions about how your palms fare through (extreme) weather events.

I am OK.

15 hours ago, PalmsInBaltimore said:

Aside from people posting once or twice about the protections they used for this polar vortex, most of the posts have been about weather and discussions about cold events in North America. Way more posts in the thread about current temperatures, air patterns, how many inches of snow than there are posts about frost cloth or tarps or christmas lights.

Also the Weather forum is not obscure. It is one of the most popular forums with 74,000 posts.


You raise a good point. If the thread is only about weather and unrelated to palms, I'd agree. However, as I mentioned before, the vortex threads aren't really about weather. Weather is contextual, not central, to these stories. I know, if you skim through, the weather images dominate but there's quite a bit about palms and people sharing their fear of losing them as well as their palm protections. Its also just a phase in these types of threads. For preparation, you need to know the shape and size of the monster before its will hit you! 

For example, take this thread currently in the cold hardy palms forum. This thread, I my view, should actually be moved to Weather. Its clear from the question and pretext that this is about weather-only. Someone posting pictures of their damaged Pindo leaf, or going off about palm protection methods,  would be off topic. 

 

The reason that Weather forum appears so popular is more because the winter event threads get moved there. I admit this is a guess but I see it happen a lot. Vortex threads are a big deal for people who grow palms in areas that are prone to freezing and they get the most posts of almost any thread in the Cold Hardy forum. Everything comes together in these threads. That's why I think this discussion matters, especially for that community.

Posted
44 minutes ago, Swolte said:

Weather is contextual, not central, to these stories

Weather is definitely  central to these threads, otherwise it wouldn't even be brought up... 

 

47 minutes ago, Swolte said:

The reason that Weather forum appears so popular is more because the winter event threads get moved there. I admit this is a guess but I see it happen a lot. Vortex threads are a big deal for people who grow palms in areas that are prone to freezing and they get the most posts of almost any thread in the Cold Hardy forum.

 Winter Wx related threads have been present in the weather section  ..for longer than the 10+ years i've been here.. Definitely not anything new / recent..







 

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Posted

To complicate matters even further, one could also make a good argument that the threads belong in the Freeze Damage Data section.  The threads in question do span a significant portion of the hobby, including protection methods, weather, freeze damage, specimen showcasing, and recovery reports.

This was a link to my response when asked why it wasn't moved/posted to/in the weather area in case anyone is interested:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/82504-polar-vortex/?page=20#findComment-1188234

Moderating a site isn't an easy volunteer job.  No matter what side of an issue the individual comes down on, there will be some level of disagreement.  I'm sure there were users disappointed that I decided not to move the Polar Vortex thread linked above.  If one of the folks who have the ability to move threads determined this was the correct course of action, they did so without malice, and usually, because it was requested.  There is no desire to throttle activity on the site by moving threads if they surpass a certain activity threshold.  If anything, the hope is that there is more activity that expands our knowledge base of cradle-to-grave care for all species.

Speaking for myself from the end-user perspective, I'll visit the threads, regardless of where they reside, because of my interest in cold hardiness data.  If my wish came true, there would be no need for the threads because the cold air would stay at the north pole where it belongs :).  Since it doesn't heed my desires, it's better to be prepared with a slate of palms that can survive the onslaught.

One thing that can be done to ease the transition when a thread is moved is to leave a link to the new location for 7 days.  Most of the time I do this, but once in a while, I forget to check the box when I'm in a hurry.  Hopefully everyone who was participating in the threads at the old location has found them at the new location in the weather forums.  Judging by the activity as of late, it appears that is the case.

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Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

Posted

I guess, in the end, the question is whether it is sufficiently obvious for a relatively new user to open a thread about a weather event in a weather forum or a cold hardy palm forum. I can see, as many of you have argued, that you would do that in Weather. I am not even arguing that. 

What we can, I hope, all agree on is that, for a significant portion of users, it is not obvious (myself included, and some of the other posters here). The fact that a significant amount of the popular threads here are moved from the cold hardy forum (CHPF; and I have been here since 2017) is a simple testament of that. I don't have the means to verify this but I am willing to bet my Brahea Supersilver that the majority of threads that reached 1000+ posts were moved to Weather from somewhere else and did not originate there.

There. A testable statement. Go ahead. I'll admit I am wrong it data can show it.  Will you if it is not true? If I am right. What is your solution? And why do you think this keeps happening?

I have tried to provide reasons for why I I think this is the case and provided suggestions to improve this situation! I am happy to argue further but I think I have said my piece now. I am not convinced by what I have heard that the current situation is not problematic.

I will admit that I didn't expect this amount of pushback from users who know the Cold hardy  palm forum community (it wouldn't surprise me coming from those who don't frequent the CHPF!). I also appear to be the only one actively arguing my point (which doesn't look good for me...). It doesn't remove the confusion I raised earlier but it is at least 'obvious' for other users that polar vortex event threads belong in Weather and I'll respect that. I meant it when I said that even makes ME feel better. The reason I started this thread is not cause I felt my d**k got stepped on but because I believe (potential) users were going to miss out (I used to be a head mod in one of the largest gaming forums at the time with over 900k+ users so I can't help but have that perspective!). 

11 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

One thing that can be done to ease the transition when a thread is moved is to leave a link to the new location for 7 days.  Most of the time I do this, but once in a while, I forget to check the box when I'm in a hurry.  Hopefully everyone who was participating in the threads at the old location has found them at the new location in the weather forums.  Judging by the activity as of late, it appears that is the case.

Agreed, this would be the minimum! The reason I was upset, and some of that probably showed, is that there was no notification! I couldn't even find it (on the bright side, I did discover a Weather forum and finally found an explanation for all those 'missing threads' in the past! :p)!
 

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