Polar Vortex Jan 2025 - Are you preparing your palms?

[Ivanos1982]

29 minutes ago, JeskiM said:

So the January forecast was a big bust temperature wise.  Here's my thoughts on the February forecast:

(1) Dynamical models are keeping a cold pattern in place through Febraury (persistence)

(2) La Nina is ongoing (in the Nino 3.4 and 4 regions)

(3) Madden-Julian Oscillation (MJO) has amplified and is located around the Indian Ocean / Maritime Continent 

With MJO's location and amplitude, it may Constructively interact with La Nina. If it does, then that will likely lead to a warm pattern over central and eastern CONUS.   This large-scale pattern is mostly driving what you are seeing in many of the February forecasts for warmth in the CONUS.

However, this contrasts with #1 above.  This means there's Uncertainty. 

One thing to watch is the temperatures in Alaska, right now they are "warm", they will get real cold coming up.  That cold air will build up and at some point will be on the move ... but to where exactly ?   Impossible to forecast for now. Hence, I will end this post with this :

I expect a good Thaw to occur throughout the lower 48, east of the Rockies, and mostly below Interstate 80, through the first 1 - 3 weeks of February. Beyond that I think we may see some more cold. .... just not likely to be what we just saw.

-Matt

Alaska being so warm pushes all the cold somewhere else... this time it came to us in the deep south. Hopefully it will go to Siberia or something next. Sorry to wish this for those on that side. But we need a break already down here. 

[mthteh1916]

20 hours ago, Ivanos1982 said:

Just uncovered my king palm for a bit and she looks ok so far... will re-cover as we will freeze again tonight. Didnt use the handwarmers as I had to be at my other house during the event. So the sheet covers were all she had. Everything seems alive so far.  My queens look fine but they take a while to show damage.  Little ravenea is fine, not sure about the bigger one as i didnt peak at that one. We will see in a week. 20 was the min at my yard. Im in West Houston and my backyard faces the northeast. 

glad to hear. In Fort Lauderdale we have been very lucky since the 80's, but it has dropped below freezing there in the past. 

[mthteh1916]

19 hours ago, Chester B said:

I went out and its pretty much total carnage to a lot of my non palmy plants.  Robustas are already showing bronzing to the leaves, but I wrapped the spears so hopefully they don't spear pull on me and grow out of this by June.  Everything I protected I'm going to leave until tomorrow or Friday to unwrap.  One more coldish night tonight at around 28F

what was your lowest and did you have any day that stayed below freezing?

[Chester B]

@mthteh1916

According to NWS

Jan 20 - low of 28

Jan 21 - low 28 High 41

Jan 22 - Low 19.9 High 47

Jan 23 - Low 30 and Current temp is 56

I did see weather stations around me reporting 19F at around 6 am on the 22nd and total time below freezing was 13-14 hours.  Quick duration freeze but enough to cause damage apparently.

[mthteh1916]

19 hours ago, _nevi said:

I think the ideal with snowfall as that the event happens completely overnight, clearing by sunrise. That way, there'd a least be a full day of warmup/sunlight to melt things off.

Otherwise, dewpoints would be the only other protector. Those ugly temps in Lafayette, Baton Rouge, Gulfport, Mobile, etc would not have happened had dewpoints stayed high. Continentality is a killer, as @mthteh1916 mentioned.

Speaking of which, New Orleans may need to be watched tonight. As @Xenon mentioned, they are the final bastion of queen palms on the northern Gulf Coast. But they received loads of snow, meaning still lots left to melt. Still 4 inches of snow depth as of 6PM today. Their setup today is also more favorable for radiational cooling (due to less wind). Only saving grace would be if any upper-level cloud cover can limit cooling.
 

from Dauphin Island over to Apalachicola temps stayed above 20F for the most part, with some places along there not dropping below 23F. I'm talking about areas on the barrier islands and on the immediate coast. Coldest I saw was 18F at Orange beach about a mile from the beach. Dauphin Island went down to 20F. Apalachicola went down to 27F. All along the coast between the two never went below 18F, with most having a min low of between 20F to 25F. 

[mthteh1916]

13 minutes ago, Chester B said:

@mthteh1916

According to NWS

Jan 20 - low of 28

Jan 21 - low 28 High 41

Jan 22 - Low 19.9 High 47

Jan 23 - Low 30 and Current temp is 56

I did see weather stations around me reporting 19F at around 6 am on the 22nd and total time below freezing was 13-14 hours.  Quick duration freeze but enough to cause damage apparently.

Queen palms came back from that on the Georgia and SC coasts around Bluffton, Beaufort, Savannah, etc. in past years. 

[mthteh1916]

27 minutes ago, Ivanos1982 said:

Alaska being so warm pushes all the cold somewhere else... this time it came to us in the deep south. Hopefully it will go to Siberia or something next. Sorry to wish this for those on that side. But we need a break already down here. 

Judah Cohen a well respected expert on these cold outbreaks says that the Himalayas cause the cold air to pile up over Siberia since it can't get over the mountains being cold and dense air. It piles up and spills over to North America where nothing hinders it. In fact the Rockies contribute to it with their alignment. It has to spill into Poland and western europe for them to ever get this cold. With the Siberian High getting weaker with warming, it rarely goes to Europe anymore. 

[mthteh1916]

11 hours ago, Manalto said:

About 6" of snow on Tuesday in Chickasaw. Some of the forecasts had predicted wet wintry mix, but it came down quite fluffy, so maybe it provided some insulation for dieback perennials. I recorded 13°F for a low temperature Wednesday a.m., but my next door neighbor said his app gave him a low of 11°F.  It looks like my Chamaedoreas are goners. I'm most concerned about my mule palm, which is now a good size, and the last remaining source of "sitting" shade on the property.

This morning's low is expected to be 17°F.

The interior temperature of my leaky, partially-restored old house is now a cozy 54°F.  (The heating system can't keep up.) My usual upbeat disposition is being put to the test.

will the washingtonia and date palms survive in mobile you think? beautiful robusta line the bel air mall along the store fronts and in the parking lot. I was there when they were installing them some years back. they have a nice size now. I saw lots of date palms and robusta in Mobile. I wonder if it will be a palmageddon and nothing comes back?

[flplantguy]

I was reading today that Yakutsk Siberia hit an all time record high temp for the month and has been very "warm" compared to average. Thats cuz its all visiting us here, no where else is cold this year.  The cross polar flow pattern is no joke, and its been multiple stretched polar vortex events causing it (up to 7! i think) If this was all bottled up and came screaming out at once it would be even worse if you can believe that.  In 2022 IIRC the far east had cold breakouts too and the one event here at christmas was intense anyway.  Im not sure on 2021 though, but i dont recall any crazy news stories about cold from china that year (not saying there wasnt). The 1980s temps in florida look wonderful without the freezes, and part of it was that "all at once" factor i think. Could be wrong with all of it though since fluid dynamics is HARD and im not a meteorolgist. Add in SSW events and it gets weird. Judah Cohen is great at making it easier to follow though, and he is also not convinced on warmth staying yet. He even said he thinks its possible both the US and the far east get it again before V day.  By then intensity should be fading on any cold but the damage is done now.  What a winter🥶

[Robbertico18]

 

So far nothing in the front yard is outright dead, the only thing I covered was a reclinata also has a few jugs of hot water placed under the cover to help insulate it a bit.  

[Robbertico18]

covered some more things in the back since it doesn’t see much sun in the winter time, gave the Australian tree fern the same treatment as the reclinata in the front but unfortunately had to trim its fronds to be able to cover it. 
 

the washie has some spotting on it but others seem to think that one hit harder earlier in the thread will bounce back so I’m not too worried about this one 

[MarcusH]

1 hour ago, Ivanos1982 said:

Too early to tell but the spears on all my queens and kings are strong, they are not pulling. We went down to 20.2 F in my yard facing northeast. All I did was cover them from the ground up with old bed sheets. They are mulched heavily at the bottom part which I suspect is where the heart (growing point is) is considering how young they are still.  I will update as the warm comes along. 

It's hard to tell each palm has its own hardiness but from my experience I've lost 2 Queens, similar to your size,when it got down to 19f. The first two days they looked not bad at all then turned brown quite fast and I did the spear pull test and to my surprise I was holding two spears in each hand like an orchestra director holds the baton up in the air .  Joke aside, only time will tell. I might have had just bad luck . Hopefully they pull through. Keep us up to date.

[Las Palmas Norte]

2 hours ago, MarcusH said:

Which means in other words no matter how much you are an expert in meteorology you can still be so wrong.  

I think that's our local TV station weatherguy's motto. 

[MarcusH]

1 minute ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

I think that's our local TV station weatherguy's motto. 

Lol . Open the house door in the morning, stand on left foot and lick your right index finger then you should know the weather.  

[Ivanos1982]

13 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

It's hard to tell each palm has its own hardiness but from my experience I've lost 2 Queens, similar to your size,when it got down to 19f. The first two days they looked not bad at all then turned brown quite fast and I did the spear pull test and to my surprise I was holding two spears in each hand like an orchestra director holds the baton up in the air .  Joke aside, only time will tell. I might have had just bad luck . Hopefully they pull through. Keep us up to date.

all of the queens on the pics survived last years 18F. Lost all the leaves but came back. I did cut them down all the way to the growing point and kept it dry. The kings, I planted after that frost so those will be a test.

[Robbertico18]

2 minutes ago, Ivanos1982 said:

all of the queens on the pics survived last years 18F. Lost all the leaves but came back. I did cut them down all the way to the growing point and kept it dry. The kings, I planted after that frost so those will be a test.

Please keep updating the kings, I have two in a pot I’d like to plant out and inevitably protect 

[Xenon]

6 minutes ago, Ivanos1982 said:

all of the queens on the pics survived last years 18F. Lost all the leaves but came back. I did cut them down all the way to the growing point and kept it dry. The kings, I planted after that frost so those will be a test.

Were the queens protected last year? 

[MarcusH]

32 minutes ago, flplantguy said:

I was reading today that Yakutsk Siberia hit an all time record high temp for the month and has been very "warm" compared to average. Thats cuz its all visiting us here, no where else is cold this year.  The cross polar flow pattern is no joke, and its been multiple stretched polar vortex events causing it (up to 7! i think) If this was all bottled up and came screaming out at once it would be even worse if you can believe that.  In 2022 IIRC the far east had cold breakouts too and the one event here at christmas was intense anyway.  Im not sure on 2021 though, but i dont recall any crazy news stories about cold from china that year (not saying there wasnt). The 1980s temps in florida look wonderful without the freezes, and part of it was that "all at once" factor i think. Could be wrong with all of it though since fluid dynamics is HARD and im not a meteorolgist. Add in SSW events and it gets weird. Judah Cohen is great at making it easier to follow though, and he is also not convinced on warmth staying yet. He even said he thinks its possible both the US and the far east get it again before V day.  By then intensity should be fading on any cold but the damage is done now.  What a winter🥶

Before I moved to the U.S. from Germany 3 years ago I've noticed our winters getting colder at their ultimate lows about 5 years before I moved.  The snow came back so did the very cold temperatures.  I see the same pattern happening over here. 

I certainly don't believe in any kind of computer model that predicts weather months ahead. Looking a few days ahead gives me a better picture and enough time to prepare. 

Since the South got hammered by a Palmaggedon type of storm, again,  me personally if you are the type of leaving your palms unprotected I can only suggest to look into palms like Sabals. They might be more expensive and slow growing but it will pay off at the end. If we keep getting cold winters below 20f most pinnate palms burn their fronds and will not look good for the most part of the year. I think with Sabal palms you have a nice looking palm that will stay evergreen like a pine tree.  The Queen palms in the northern Gulf states will vanish like a ghost sooner or later. It's just too cold . I also wouldn't recommend Washingtonia Robusta.  Too iffy in my opinion.  I know the Washingtonia filifera might be a good alternative but I'm not so sure I would recommend them east of Texas due to high humidity.  This is only a suggestion if you don't want to go through the yearly hassle protecting your palms and all that.  

[MarcusH]

17 minutes ago, Ivanos1982 said:

all of the queens on the pics survived last years 18F. Lost all the leaves but came back. I did cut them down all the way to the growing point and kept it dry. The kings, I planted after that frost so those will be a test.

I had one going through 16,21,24,28 f in the first year. It survived . Just a towel wrapped around the trunk and a bucket over it. But it was also a dry cold. Second year we got that freezing rain. They all died.

[Chester B]

I have this Hybrid Livistona and I wasn’t going to protect it, I figured it would be fine. It was given to me by a friend so I chopped off the lowest fronds and wrapped it in frost cloth just in case.  The damn thing is worse than wrapping a chainsaw, my hands are mangled. I uncovered it and to my surprise it is completely bronzed off. Only in by the base of the spear do I see green. 

I haven't checked the queens or the Bismarckia, I'm waiting until tomorrow as we are expected to go below freezing again.

[UK_Palms]

2 hours ago, MarcusH said:

Hey man, find me that post where I compare Texas to Germany please. I guess it wasn't like" my place is better than yours type of comparison." We are talking about a sensitive time where people worry about to lose their palms like someone worries about hurricanes who happens to live at a hurricane prone place.  We are talking about palm tree survival here related to a polar vortex , nothing else.  Texas gets hammered by cold fronds (since 2021) and severe droughts with extreme hot temperatures doesn't make it better. It’s taking a toll on vegetation .Most of them will do just fine as always, we might see some defoliation on certain types of palms again.  It would be nice to see CIDPS see in their full beauty again but you make comments in the past about why our CIDPs have such ugly crowns compared to the one in the UK. I think you're smart because you have been following our Texas threads for years , you have seen the devastating pictures and you know exactly why they look like it but still wonder why. I'm not as knowledgeable as most of you guys are on here in terms of palms and meteorology but I do have basic knowledge and use common sense.  You don't have to have a degree in common sense.  I'm just giving you my 2 cents about the way I feel like you approach us.  I'm like you, I'm not afraid to express my opinions.  Still, I don't have an issue with you . Be more understanding about what we are going through.  

 

 

Honestly Marcus, it's not as deep as you are making out. You phrase it as if I have some personal vendetta against palm growers in the States and that I want to see people suffering. Obviously that is not how it is. Like in terms of any comments, perceptions, comparisons etc... it's just general chit chat and assessments from myself, from a weather and palm enthusiast viewpoint. Those are my two main subjects/fields when I'm online and in general. It's not me hating.

I'm more intrigued by the volatility of US weather than anything. Not a lot goes on over here where I am, at least compared to all the different weather events and extremities over there. I may be over here in Europe and the UK, but we have had our own freeze event (by our own standards) which has effected northern regions badly, which I was posting about in this thread 2 weeks ago. In recent days I have made some observations and comparisons. That is all it is.

Yes, I have asked about the dwarfed crowns of CIDP in San Antonio and New Braunfels. I remember the discussion with a few of you. I also remember being told by two separate Texas folk that our Washingtonia's look like crap here. I remember one of them saying the Skyduster Robusta on the Isles of Scilly looks like a "few scraggly leaves on a stick". 🤣 So it goes both ways. It's not like any of us have gone out of our way to actually insult or criticise the actual palm exploits in each of our locations, despite a few harsh words.

At least you've had it pretty mild during this event in San Antonio anyway. Compared to many, you've had a big nothingburger where you are. You're one of the last people who should be getting triggered by any of my recent comments, Marcus. Just saying.

[NBTX11]

4 hours ago, MarcusH said:

It's hard to tell each palm has its own hardiness but from my experience I've lost 2 Queens, similar to your size,when it got down to 19f. The first two days they looked not bad at all then turned brown quite fast and I did the spear pull test and to my surprise I was holding two spears in each hand like an orchestra director holds the baton up in the air .  Joke aside, only time will tell. I might have had just bad luck . Hopefully they pull through. Keep us up to date.

You should have cut them all the way back until you found the growing point.  Once large, queen palms can take 19F, provided it's not a prolonged freeze.  I've seen them come back from 15 or 16.  They were large ones.  

[NBTX11]

3 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

Yes, I have asked about the dwarfed crowns of CIDP in San Antonio and New Braunfels.

They shouldn't defoliate this winter, so they should look glorious by the end of summer, with thick crowns.  

[NBTX11]

4 hours ago, MarcusH said:

Before I moved to the U.S. from Germany 3 years ago I've noticed our winters getting colder at their ultimate lows about 5 years before I moved.  The snow came back so did the very cold temperatures.  I see the same pattern happening over here. 

I certainly don't believe in any kind of computer model that predicts weather months ahead. Looking a few days ahead gives me a better picture and enough time to prepare. 

Since the South got hammered by a Palmaggedon type of storm, again,  me personally if you are the type of leaving your palms unprotected I can only suggest to look into palms like Sabals. They might be more expensive and slow growing but it will pay off at the end. If we keep getting cold winters below 20f most pinnate palms burn their fronds and will not look good for the most part of the year. I think with Sabal palms you have a nice looking palm that will stay evergreen like a pine tree.  The Queen palms in the northern Gulf states will vanish like a ghost sooner or later. It's just too cold . I also wouldn't recommend Washingtonia Robusta.  Too iffy in my opinion.  I know the Washingtonia filifera might be a good alternative but I'm not so sure I would recommend them east of Texas due to high humidity.  This is only a suggestion if you don't want to go through the yearly hassle protecting your palms and all that.  

Marcus, tall washingtonia hybrids are 100 percent hardy in San Antonio/New Braunfels.  There is a row of very large tall ones, 50 plus feet along I35 in NE San Antonio.  Most people can.t tell them apart from Robusta.  There are still tall Washingtonia hybrids in New Braunfels, and even pure Robusta around.  

[Sabal_Louisiana]

I am glad San Antonio got by okay, at least compared with us. They were hit pretty hard in 2021. 

[Dartolution]

16 hours ago, Manalto said:

About 6" of snow on Tuesday in Chickasaw. Some of the forecasts had predicted wet wintry mix, but it came down quite fluffy, so maybe it provided some insulation for dieback perennials. I recorded 13°F for a low temperature Wednesday a.m., but my next door neighbor said his app gave him a low of 11°F.  It looks like my Chamaedoreas are goners. I'm most concerned about my mule palm, which is now a good size, and the last remaining source of "sitting" shade on the property.

This morning's low is expected to be 17°F.

The interior temperature of my leaky, partially-restored old house is now a cozy 54°F.  (The heating system can't keep up.) My usual upbeat disposition is being put to the test.

@Manalto WHOA.... 

That is surprising! The low here in south shelby county was 11.7F on Wednesday Morning, followed by a low of 19.4F last night. 

We did not get a single flake of snow this round. (thankfully). Surprisingly enough I see minimal to no damage to the palms. However it may be too soon to tell. I am fairly good at spotting early signs of leaf edema though.... *fingers crossed*

I did chicken out and wrap the trunks with heat cable, and bind the fronds up. Threw a little frost cloth around the trunks to insulate. 

My Mule (potted) is too large to drag into the house anymore. Topping out at 15 feet all I could do was lay it on its side and throw frost cloth and bedsheets over it. It has survived the brutal 10F last winter. It'll survive this. 

 

STAY WARM! 

 

 

[PAPalmtrees]

here is One of my sable minors and my needle palm after -15 in Zone 7a PA. this is my first time seeing them in a week I am surprised there is not a lot of damage yet, I know damage takes a few weeks to show but I thought there would be more. they had no heat overnight because how my dad wired The electricity outside he made it where a light switch turns off the power outside and I think somebody bumped into it when they were in the basement so that's why there was no electricity outside. I also had them wrapped in a towel With pine needles on top And a bucket on top With snow surrounding the buckets.

[Chester B]

Bismarckia is looking good. For my queens the larger the queen the better the result. 

[PAPalmtrees]

44 minutes ago, Chester B said:

Bismarckia is looking good. For my queens the larger the queen the better the result. 

it looks pretty good

[PAPalmtrees]

Here are my sago palms after -15 in zone 7a PA, the first one looks really good Because it had more protection than the other one and as you can see the second one has a lot of burnt leaves but it will be okay

[amh]

16F last night, radiational cooling is really fun.

[amh]

1 hour ago, amh said:

16F last night, radiational cooling is really fun.

I have noticed that all of the Diospyros texana in my yard have defoliated. 

[Las Palmas Norte]

7 hours ago, Chester B said:

Bismarckia is looking good. For my queens the larger the queen the better the result. 

See. All the distress and anxiety fot nothing. 😆

[Swolte]

Lets not get too optimistic too quickly! Damage may show up a few weeks or months later. @Chester B, this was just a frost cloth and it went down to 19F? If it keeps looking that good, I am genuinely impressed...

It went down to 16F for me for a few hours as the worst event (other days, even yesterday, in the low 20s).

Some first impressions of unprotected palms after a few days (I am not mentioning the obvious ones, like most Sabals or needles, etc...):
- Supermule (frond damage, will probably end up defoliating completely)
- Jubaea hybrids (look unfazed)
- Sabal Causiarum 5 yrs (unfazed)
- C Radicalis (looks fine but some discoloring. May end up defoliating)
- Sabal Riverside 5 yrs (unfazed)

Let me know if there's a specific palm you're interested in!

On 1/23/2025 at 8:18 PM, Dartolution said:

all I could do was lay it on its side and throw frost cloth and bedsheets over it.

Never thought of that... good idea for potted palms if you can't drag them in!

~ S
 

[Robbertico18]

2 hours ago, Swolte said:

Lets not get too optimistic too quickly! Damage may show up a few weeks or months later. @Chester B, this was just a frost cloth and it went down to 19F? If it keeps looking that good, I am genuinely impressed...

It went down to 16F for me for a few hours as the worst event (other days, even yesterday, in the low 20s).

Some first impressions of unprotected palms after a few days (I am not mentioning the obvious ones, like most Sabals or needles, etc...):
- Supermule (frond damage, will probably end up defoliating completely)
- Jubaea hybrids (look unfazed)
- Sabal Causiarum 5 yrs (unfazed)
- C Radicalis (looks fine but some discoloring. May end up defoliating)
- Sabal Riverside 5 yrs (unfazed)

Let me know if there's a specific palm you're interested in!

Never thought of that... good idea for potted palms if you can't drag them in!

~ S
 

I’m curious about your super mule!

 Is it from moultrie down in St Augustine?

I had two both spear pull last winter but bounced back beautifully, hoping they can bounce back from this cold as well

[Swolte]

1 hour ago, Robbertico18 said:

I’m curious about your super mule!

 Is it from moultrie down in St Augustine?

I had two both spear pull last winter but bounced back beautifully, hoping they can bounce back from this cold as well

Yes, I have two from them that arrived at the same time. One that is growing quite large with fronds above our roof (single floor) now. This one is close to the house (warm microclimate, irrigation) and get a ton of sun. It survived 3F with some X-mas lights under blankets in '21. Every year it completely defoliated (and in some years I cut everything off beforehand, cause it makes protecting easier). This was the first year I left it unprotected. 

The smaller one I had initially planted in a much shadier spot. Since it was in the garden (no electricity), it was only ever protected by frost-cloths and fleece. I also dug it up one year and moved it to a sunnier spot. It gets hit harder by the cold (spear pulled, trunk cut) and, during droughts, basically does not receive water unless I carry a bucket there by hand (which I rarely do). Clearly, you can see why it grows so much slower!  

Both will likely lose all their leaves again this year (we don't get a break!), but I do think both will survive. They are great palms, though, but seem inferior to the JxB or BxJ hybrids judging by leaf hardiness. Perhaps the Queen genes do allow for a faster recovery as its superpower as it does grow crazy fast if its happy!

How cold did it get for you? I hope they'll make it! 

[Xenon]

Not to rain on the parade, but Bismarckia is notoriously slow at showing damage. Even after 2021 in Houston they took many weeks to show the true extent of damage and several months to "die". 

[mthteh1916]

On 1/23/2025 at 4:50 PM, UK_Palms said:

 

Honestly Marcus, it's not as deep as you are making out. You phrase it as if I have some personal vendetta against palm growers in the States and that I want to see people suffering. Obviously that is not how it is. Like in terms of any comments, perceptions, comparisons etc... it's just general chit chat and assessments from myself, from a weather and palm enthusiast viewpoint. Those are my two main subjects/fields when I'm online and in general. It's not me hating.

I'm more intrigued by the volatility of US weather than anything. Not a lot goes on over here where I am, at least compared to all the different weather events and extremities over there. I may be over here in Europe and the UK, but we have had our own freeze event (by our own standards) which has effected northern regions badly, which I was posting about in this thread 2 weeks ago. In recent days I have made some observations and comparisons. That is all it is.

Yes, I have asked about the dwarfed crowns of CIDP in San Antonio and New Braunfels. I remember the discussion with a few of you. I also remember being told by two separate Texas folk that our Washingtonia's look like crap here. I remember one of them saying the Skyduster Robusta on the Isles of Scilly looks like a "few scraggly leaves on a stick". 🤣 So it goes both ways. It's not like any of us have gone out of our way to actually insult or criticise the actual palm exploits in each of our locations, despite a few harsh words.

At least you've had it pretty mild during this event in San Antonio anyway. Compared to many, you've had a big nothingburger where you are. You're one of the last people who should be getting triggered by any of my recent comments, Marcus. Just saying.

I didn't think you said anything out of turn to the guy in Texas. What the guy in TX maybe doesn't realize yet but he will is the southeast US is an awful climate to grow palms besides sabals. I have a friend in NZ at 40S growing navel oranges and never once had a tree freeze. And of course when is the last time you heard people in Spain and Italy frantically trying to protect their citrus from temps in the low teens. It never happens. Europe grows commercial citrus at 40N, something America can't even muster at 30N. We have the worst geography in the world.

I know people in central FL have had their citrus trees frozen solid and die within weeks. There is a reason we have no native broadleaf evergreens except for ugly live oaks, while China is native to citrus and camelias and tons of broadleaf evergreens. Scientists have studied this. The US Southeast is so wildly erratic temp wise that you can get weeks of 70F weather in the winter, followed by temps in the low teens. It kills everything. It is the worst subtropical climate in the world bar none. I wouldn't even classify it as subtropical. Houston is a warm continental climate but certainly not subtropical went you can hit 7F. China, Australia, Argentina, Europe, the Middle East, etc etc. can grow far more and at higher latitudes, and never have winter temps deviate by 40F like the SE US. They are lucky if their temps deviate in winter by 10F.

It is a horrible palm growing climate. that is why this cold hardy forum is full of Americans and basically no one else. . Every winter this cold palm forum is the domain of Americans dealing with these cold outbreaks, while people at 40N latitude in Europe are growing stuff no one can in Louisiana. WE have the worst palm growing climate for such low latitude locations.   6F at 30N no where else in the world ever.  In the 1980's Mobile Al went down to 7F and here we are and they went to 6F at 30N latitude at sea level. Not a single location on earth at that latitude has ever gotten that cold. Never. 

Rotten geography which Americans will never admit to.  I am much older than most on this forum. In the 1980's you couldn't grow a cidp to save your life in Houston. When you went to Houston in the late 80's you saw nothing but the most hardy of palms. Winter low mins in Houston 1982 12F, 1983 11F, 1989 the big winner at 7F. In 1983 Houston had three days in a row without going above freezing with an ultimate low of 11F. Not a single pinnate palm was left. Grow palms in Houston and the rest of the Southeast US at your own risk. Eventually all will die except sabals. When was the last time Nice France or Naples Italy hit 7F? 

[Robbertico18]

@Swolte it got down to 24 but it’s the snow and ice I’m worried about. They were both ordered at the same time as well and planted out in 2023

[_nevi]

On 1/23/2025 at 2:07 PM, mthteh1916 said:

from Dauphin Island over to Apalachicola temps stayed above 20F for the most part, with some places along there not dropping below 23F. I'm talking about areas on the barrier islands and on the immediate coast. Coldest I saw was 18F at Orange beach about a mile from the beach. Dauphin Island went down to 20F. Apalachicola went down to 27F. All along the coast between the two never went below 18F, with most having a min low of between 20F to 25F. 

Both Dauphin and Orange Beach got quite a bit of snow. But it appears Apalachicola got quite a bit less. Although all these coastal locations would have their dewpoints quite high enough to prevent tanking.