Advice on starting a Pygmy Date from seed

[Mike Palm Enthusiast]

I decided to try to grow a few different date palms from seeds. I've been doing this on and off for years, but mostly with just seeds from dates from the supermarket.

I had moderate success this summer with Canary Island Dates and Silver Dates, but really failed with Pygmy Dates. All had problems with fungus. The Pygmy Dates didn't show much fungus, but were obviously overwhelmed by it. Numerous Pygmy Dates seeds sent out a cotyledonary petiole only to die shortly afterwards.

I used a different method of germination this year that obviously doesn't work for me. I used perlite in styrofoam with a cover and temperature 75-95 F. OMG, fungus! I transferred midway to paper towel and plastic bag, same temp. Better results, but too late for the Pygmy Dates.

I got new Pygmy Date seeds. I'm going to try two different methods. 1. Sow in Kellogg Organics soil with 1/3 perlite and add bottom heat when needed. 2. Soak briefly in 1 part household bleach to 9 parts water (approximately 0.5% bleach), then paper towel in plastic bag with light moisture and Captain Jack's Copper fungicide.

I'd appreciate any helpful suggestions!

PS the temperatures will most likely be lower than during July and early August.

[Las Palmas Norte]

YouTube has plenty of videos. I'd wager there's some info / tutorials there.

[PalmsInBaltimore]

the bleach won't do much to prevent fungus, which is just in the air anyway. Really the best way to control it is to use a sterilized medium. Some microwave their sphagnum or boil the coco coir, depending on what medium is being used. For perlite I imagine one could boil perlite just fine or perhaps irradiate it with bright sunlight in a hot bag for about 20 minutes. The Kellogg soil is going to have fungus and bacteria in it of course. 

The other way to try and keep fungus to a minimum is to really make the germination medium as dry as possible while still being moist. Air circulation can help prevent the seeds from getting too damp. This is why I've become a believer in sphagnum over coir. I'm currently trying to germinate about 100 Licuala peltata and Pinanga coronata seeds and I think I've already lost one or two of the L peltata to damping off because the radicles emerged white and fleshy but were gone when I checked again five days later. Those two are in the cohort that's sitting in coco coir (I'm comparing those seeds to seeds in sphagnum and a third group in hydroton LECA balls). Another seed has what appears to be white fuzz around the emerging radicle and I'm not sure if those are root hairs or fungus.

I think some of the nights going down to mid 60sF were too cool and weakened the radicles, allowing fungus to take over, so the seeds are all being kept consistently warm at the moment (approximately 90F) in the hopes that their metabolism stays high. I am not sure anymore if day-night temperature swings are good for high germination rates because I feel like damp cool nights are when fungus can really thrive. In nature it doesn't matter so much because a handful of palms will drop thousands upon thousands of seeds, so some will invariably find a way. Then again, there are plenty of people here who seem to have no issues with germination. Of course, they also tend to have greenhouses or live in a palm-friendly habitat where seeds can be sown in-ground. 

Also, when you referred to the temperature, was that from leaving the styrofoam outside or was that from bottom heating? I've moved my germination containers inside with bottom heating because the past week gave us some fairly chilly and damp nights that I think contributed to the possible damping off.

I really don't know anything about P. roebelenii germination specifically, but they're probably harder to germinate than other dates, which seem to be among the easiest and fastest to germinate. 

Anyway, hope that wasn't too long. Best of luck with all this and keep us posted 

[Scott W]

I germinate Phoneix seeds in no medium, just a plastic container with a lid on my kitchen counter.  Never really noticed a fungus issue.  

 

[kinzyjr]

They work well in community pots or bags if you pull them fast enough before they all get their roots tangled.  Here, they pop up everywhere in your planting beds because of birds and squirrels.

[PalmsInBaltimore]

1 hour ago, Scott W said:

I germinate Phoneix seeds in no medium, just a plastic container with a lid on my kitchen counter

Do you only do this for Phoenix genus seeds or other types as well? You just soak the seeds after cleaning and put them in the sealed container? I know Phoenix varieties are generally easier to germinate than other types of palms, but I hadn't heard of this method. Seems to work perfectly for you, look at them all! 

[Scott W]

The two varieties pictured are Phoenix dactilyfera and Phoenix theoprastii, yeah, soak them for a day or two, then drain the water and leave covered.  Maybe once a week give them another soak and drain until germination, and I just used tap water.  Yes. I've only done this with Phoenix seeds...

Below is Phoenix reclinata seedlings where the seed was just thrown into recycled dirt and left to nature.  Numbers look pretty good.

 

[ZPalms]

19 hours ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

YouTube has plenty of videos. I'd wager there's some info / tutorials there.

I followed a video once and I put the seeds in just sand cause that’s what the dumb video did and and they all died 😂

I should of known but I was still new to sprouting palm seeds

[Mike Palm Enthusiast]

First, thanks to PalmsInBaltimore for your thoughtful answer. I believe that in general, germination in soil is not preferred because of the waste of materials. I am not really concerned about this as I'm essentially doing this for my own enjoyment. In terms of fungus, I believe that in soil, beneficial and harmful fungus and bacteria battle it out and fungal problems are somewhat reduced. That being said, I like seeing the seeds germinate and send out the little cotyledonary petiole before putting the seeds in soil, so I might try the empty plastic container method instead of straight into soil.

BTW, Scott W's photos of the P Reclinata seedlings supports the soil idea.

Next, I'm glad you dismissed bleach. I didn't feel completely comfortable with this idea. I just read about it, but most of the people writing obviously didn't know what they were really talking about as they referred to the solution as 10% bleach which is a more concentrated solution of sodium hypochlorite than is commercially available and I doubt they are measuring out sodium hypochlorite salt and diluting with the appropriate amount of water. In the meantime, I think Captain Jack's and very reduced moisture will help me.

Then, in terms of temperature, I am currently using a sunroom where I can grossly control the temperature and humidity, but I can also bottom heat if the temperature falls too low. Nevertheless, I had exactly the problem you describe where the radicle emerges looking healthy and then falls off after a few days. I think that fungus has made inroads inside the seeds and the radicle fails because the source of nutrients (the endocarp of the seed) is infected.

So after all this, I think I'm going to try 3 batches. One with the empty container (I'll spray with Captain Jack's for surety), the second with a very slightly damp paper towel in a plastic bag and Captain Jack's (my usual method although I never needed Captain Jack's before), and last direct sow and a bit of bottom heat (and of course Captain Jack's - it did a pretty good job of knocking down the fungus after it got started for all but the P Roebelenii).

Thanks Scott W. I have taken one method directly from you, and been encouraged by you to try the direct sow method as I had intended.

And last, PalmsInBaltimore, your post was in no way too long as you can see from the length of my post.

Thanks again. I hope I get better results this time.

[PalmsInBaltimore]

I agree the Capt Jacks should help. Also the three batches. Until you get a good system down, it can help to do the A/B/C test and plus that way they won't all be corrupted if mold reappears in one of the containers. It also helps to start with a nice helping of seeds so that even a really low successful germination rate will at least land you a few palms for all your troubles. One of them has to make it through right haha? 

As for temperature, the sunroom and bottom heat should be perfect in my opinion. I've had my current batch of Licuala peltata and Pinanga coronata seeds on a heat pad where the bottom of the containers are receiving 106F. The top of the tuperware containers is reading 84F, so hopefully the medium inside is close to the average of the two temps. These containers were outside until about two weeks ago when I saw some seeds were getting moldy. If you are using a heating mat and your sunroom has stone or tile floors, or on a glass table, it may be necessary to put cardboard or a towel down to insulate the mat. 

[Mike Palm Enthusiast]

Hi,

I am using Scott W's empty container method with a squirt of copper fungicide and so far (a week) minimal to no fungus. I am encouraged.

Mike Palm Enthusiast 

[Mike Palm Enthusiast]

Last time it was a fungal jungle by this time. I'm keeping the seeds in small batches in case of contamination.

[Mike Palm Enthusiast]

Hi,

In the end, the 3 methods I tried were:

1. empty container, room temperature

2. direct sow in wood mash pot and 1/3 perlite, 2/3 soil daily high 90 - 95 F except for one accident of high T of 120 F

3. Peat pellets same temperature as direct sow.

And the winner is: PEAT PELLETS AND HOT AS FUCK (though to be fair, I think everything just weathered the 120 F because it was a one time, couple of hours thing). Peat pellets - mass radicle pop. Other methods 0.

I also noticed that the best results were in the peat pellets that were driest. The peat and the seed looks almost dry. After soaking the peat pellets, I squeezed most of the water out.

Anyway, I think I'm on my way!

Thanks for the help.

[Mike Palm Enthusiast]

PS No fungus anywhere.