syagrus r. in the coldest place of Brasil

[Axel Amsterdam]

I had a look at streetview in Sao Joaquim in Santa Catarina (1400 meters) because the mean annual temp is only around 13C. On average summer daytemps are not above 23C and winter daytemps are 15c and 7 at night on average. On top of that they have quite a number of frost nights and its famous for fairly regular snowfall. 

I couldnt find any older syagrus there, only loads of butia eriospatha. In general the climate seems hostile for queens, even the ‘santa catarina’ varieties. 

 

 

[Axel Amsterdam]

A little lower in elevation queens appeared, which lead me to believe Sao Joaquim really is too cold long term for queens despite being very close to their natural habitat

[Axel Amsterdam]

So far i found one zone pusher in Sao Joaquim, it seems like a reasonably recent planting, maybe 5 years? Anyway, it has all the characteristics of a ‘mountain queen’. Its the only queen i found so far up in elevation

[Jonathan]

Hi Axel, those temperatures are just a bit higher for both summer and winter than mine down here in Tasmania, and S rom grows long term here with no probs, so I doubt whether their absence in the city is climatic limitations. In some places (including Tasmania!) Palms are just not a huge part of the local gardening culture, and maybe it's similar in Sao Joaquim?

Here the gardens are mostly fairly boring European styles with deciduous trees, despite our native flora being almost entirely broadleaved evergreen, or increasingly native Aus gardens...the odd CIDP or Trachycarpus, with never a Rhopie to be seen, despite the very suitable climate. 

So I would say our local gardening culture is more influenced by our colonial heritage rather than our climate averages...there's no accounting for bad taste!

[Axel Amsterdam]

Hi Jonathan, I forgot to mention Sao Joaquim has numerous nights of subzero frosts (-10C as the lowest recorded over the past decades) and sometimes very low daytemps (-2C as the lowest recorded maximum). Brazilians go there to see snow. 

This is in the middle of eriospatha and syagrus habitat though. Only 400 meters lower in elevation queens are regular garden and streetplantings. Like these in Lages for example: 

 

 

[Axel Amsterdam]

The city of Lages 400 meters lower than Sao Joaquim experiences lighter frosts as can be seen by the fronds of the roebelenii. It’s related to elevation i believe and interestingly Santa Catarina queens are not hardy enough to survive more than 5 years in Sao Joaquim while 400 meters down they are abundant. 

[Axel Amsterdam]

As expected queens grow fast in Santa Catarina, hence my observation that these can’t survive for more than 5 years in Sao Joaquim.

This is the growthrate of Santa Catarina queens in Lages very close to Sao Joaquim at 1000 m altitude, comparable climate but fewer low subzero’s.

2011

2012

2014

2022

[Jonathan]

6 hours ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Hi Jonathan, I forgot to mention Sao Joaquim has numerous nights of subzero frosts (-10C as the lowest recorded over the past decades) and sometimes very low daytemps (-2C as the lowest recorded maximum). Brazilians go there to see snow. 

This is in the middle of eriospatha and syagrus habitat though. Only 400 meters lower in elevation queens are regular garden and streetplantings. Like these in Lages for example: 

 

 

Lol! That's quite a bit  colder than here Axel...I see your point. 

[Axel Amsterdam]

Last June Sao Joaquim experienced the following night temperatures 28,8 F & 22,3 F followed by days in the 40’s. Since there are no larger queens around, it seems fair to say that Santa Catarina queens are not able to survive this climate in their habitat. This is beyond their limit. Perhaps if these lows were to be followed by heat (like in parts of Florida) the SC queens could cope but their day temps are too cool and humid to outgrow the damage apparently. 

So basically Santa Catarina queens are able to grow in cool climates but not hardy enough to withstand lower 20’s in a cool winter climate as their habitat clearly shows. 

 

 

 

[VA Jeff]

Isn't it ironic that the best looking queens come from the coldest provenances.  Quite the opposite of most species.

[Axel Amsterdam]

18 hours ago, VA Jeff said:

Isn't it ironic that the best looking queens come from the coldest provenances.  Quite the opposite of most species.

True, i also had a look at the area of highest elevation in the state of Parana (pico de parana). Streetview shows the areas a bit further down in elevation, home to the fattest queens i have seen so far. Mind you, this area is not as frosty/cold as Sao Joaquim in Santa Catarina but still coolish for Brasilian standards. The rich soil and yearround humidity certainly helps to develop fat trunks. 

[Jonathan]

Those are fantastic fatties!

[Alberto]

I visited São Joaquim 19 years ago with wife and my three sons. We went to several towns and cities (Lajes, São Joaquim, Gramado, Canela) pousadas in the interior ( Pedra Branca) and parks ( in Urubici, Pedra Furada, Aparados da Serra, Canyon Fortaleza). I photographed Butia eriospatha with Araucaria angustifolia in the "Serra" near Lajes, a picture that I still can find on internet. Cities or "habitats of araucaria forests" located at +- 1000 meters alititude are rich in jerivás ( or pindô, Syagrus romanzoffiana) generally with fat trunks and plumose leaves with wide leaflets. I remember very well the strange abscence of jerivás in the Araucaria forests near São Joaquim, known for its colder climate, apple plantations and regular snowfall in winter. I also remember well that I saw a big cultivated jerivá growing on a big "Praça" in São Joaquim.  At the "pousada" ( little hotel) in the country side of the municipality, I explored this " different" looking araucaria forests. Some trees are the same as here and other were absent like Syagrus romanslzoffiana. I remember seeing Podocarpus lambertii,  Dicksonia sellowiana and wild Feijoa sellowiana . Also less orchids then my place in Paraná.

[Alberto]

I tried to find at least one Syagrus romanzoffiana (normally an ubiquitous palm in cities in southern Brazil) on pictures of the town and around,  but failed.....  https://www.viagensecaminhos.com/o-que-fazer-em-sao-joaquim/

[Xerarch]

On 8/4/2024 at 5:02 PM, Axel Amsterdam said:

True, i also had a look at the area of highest elevation in the state of Parana (pico de parana). Streetview shows the areas a bit further down in elevation, home to the fattest queens i have seen so far. Mind you, this area is not as frosty/cold as Sao Joaquim in Santa Catarina but still coolish for Brasilian standards. The rich soil and yearround humidity certainly helps to develop fat trunks. 

That one is like a dog gone bottle palm!

[Axel Amsterdam]

On 8/8/2024 at 1:22 AM, Alberto said:

I tried to find at least one Syagrus romanzoffiana (normally an ubiquitous palm in cities in southern Brazil) on pictures of the town and around,  but failed.....  https://www.viagensecaminhos.com/o-que-fazer-em-sao-joaquim/

Seems i was wrong. I found a large queen in Sao Joaquim. According to streetview the fronds didnt show any damage over the years. It doesn’t look particularly fat like the ‘mountain queens’ above. Just a regular queen with slightly short fronds in the coldest place of Brasil. 

[psy460]

very impressive ! this one took lot of frost 😱