Washingtonia hybrid?

[Nikoskater]

I just came across this plant shop and looking around I saw some Washingtonia leaves.

Looking at the badge it was named “filifera” and near there were other small ones classified as robusta.

i have my doubts it’s a 100% filifera, could it be a filibusta?

Pics attached 

[SeanK]

If they're the same color green, they're all the same.

[Ben G.]

If it was more filifera, I would expect a little lighter green color, and more filaments. I am definitely not an expert, but I feel like it should look "hairier" than that.

[Nikoskater]

My doubts come from the unregular thon, the petiole color and the hestate shape, but the color of the leave it’s not green-grayish.

 

[Nikoskater]

1 hour ago, SeanK said:

If they're the same color green, they're all the same.

I get your point but, if the filifera sign is wrong I’m not putting enough trust for the others to be robusta as well, at this point they could all be hybrids!

[Fusca]

It's certainly possible that they're all hybrids.  It's difficult to find "pure" Washingtonia although in your photo it certainly appears that it has a lot of filifera traits but leaf color is pretty glossy green.  I'd expect to see more of the cottony fibers also but that's characteristic of both species.  Probably not 100% but maybe 80% filifera?  

[Nikoskater]

1 hour ago, Fusca said:

It's certainly possible that they're all hybrids.  It's difficult to find "pure" Washingtonia although in your photo it certainly appears that it has a lot of filifera traits but leaf color is pretty glossy green.  I'd expect to see more of the cottony fibers also but that's characteristic of both species.  Probably not 100% but maybe 80% filifera?  

I guess that the hairy cottony fiber isn’t shown as much because it was raining and the wet “hairs” sticks to the leaf and is not shown as curly as Normal.

If it’s filifera dominant I could really think about bring it in my garden, since it’s already big, and a 100% filifera (in a decent size) is almost impossible to get where I live here in north Italy

[SM458]

Anza-Borongo population have some red streaks in their stems and with pronounce thorns. But who knows. Could very well be a hybrid too. 

[jwitt]

Tainted acidic conditions can turn the best of them. Stay away from the taint.

[SeanK]

4 hours ago, Nikoskater said:

My doubts come from the unregular thon, the petiole color and the hestate shape, but the color of the leave it’s not green-grayish.

 

There is no true robusta or filifera.

The robusta ecotype is 95% prevalent. Anyone wanting "filifera" would have to trace the lineage back to Moapa or perhaps go to New Mexico and pick seeds from a parent with a 30-inch trunk that survived 0°F.

[Dwarf Fan]

2 hours ago, SeanK said:

There is no true robusta or filifera.

The robusta ecotype is 95% prevalent. Anyone wanting "filifera" would have to trace the lineage back to Moapa or perhaps go to New Mexico and pick seeds from a parent with a 30-inch trunk that survived 0°F.

Too busy “working” to cite any legitimate sources but not too busy to post opinion after opinion on Palm Talk I see…

There is no way you can tell me that the coastal Baja Robustas are the same as the palms that are found in the regions indicated on the map below:

Have you actually spent any serious amount of time in this region and witnessed the difference in Washingtonias that grow in the areas of the map below in person or are you just taking what someone has posted online as fact and running with it?

[Nikoskater]

4 hours ago, jwitt said:

Tainted acidic conditions can turn the best of them. Stay away from the taint.

What do you mean? Poor quality soil?

[jwitt]

7 hours ago, Nikoskater said:

What do you mean? Poor quality soil?

Acidic conditions (moss is a great indicator) can turn the "most pure) filifera into something not resembling pure when young 

If filifera, it is grown in bad(acidic) conditions which can change the appearance and make it more robusta "like".

It is "tainted".

 

 

 

[SeanK]

9 hours ago, Dwarf Fan said:

Too busy “working” to cite any legitimate sources but not too busy to post opinion after opinion on Palm Talk I see…

There is no way you can tell me that the coastal Baja Robustas are the same as the palms that are found in the regions indicated on the map below:

Have you actually spent any serious amount of time in this region and witnessed the difference in Washingtonias that grow in the areas of the map below in person or are you just taking what someone has posted online as fact and running with it?

No way you can look at a Yorkie and a St. Bernard side-by-side and conclude they're the same species.

Set a genetic standard to use as a test, then do DNA analysis.

[Nikoskater]

1 hour ago, jwitt said:

Acidic conditions (moss is a great indicator) can turn the "most pure) filifera into something not resembling pure when young 

If filifera, it is grown in bad(acidic) conditions which can change the appearance and make it more robusta "like".

It is "tainted".

 

 

 

didn’t know that!

changing the soil will bring it back to its original form?

shurely if I decide to bring it home to plant it in my garden I will change the soil 

[Nikoskater]

Additional pictures here.

placed a tiny one marked as robusta near to see the difference of color on the leaves (Circled in red in the pic)

last pics are a of bigger Washingtonia marked as filifera (but is way out of budget) sorry for crappy pics, couldn’t do better 

 

[Silas_Sancona]

3 hours ago, jwitt said:

Acidic conditions (moss is a great indicator) can turn the "most pure) filifera into something not resembling pure when young 

If filifera, it is grown in bad(acidic) conditions which can change the appearance and make it more robusta "like".

It is "tainted".

 

 

 

Proof? ..as in legit literature citing this?,  or is that just an assumption ?  

" Moss "  ...A simplistic, generic term that can be applied to anything from Pond scum -esque Algae,  to Bryophytes, and / or Selaginella and Liverworts, grow on pretty much every type of rock / mineral soil base if there is enough moisture to encourage / sustain growth  ..regardless of the rock's natural alkalinity / acidity.

Growing in shade might make a younger filifera look robusta - eyy, but not growing in a soil that is slightly more acid ..or alkaline...  If filifera, bigger,  trunking specimens would show definite flifera traits by now..

If there is any filifera in them,  they are likely hybrids.  Not pure ..not by a long shot.  Should be re-tagged..

 

[jwitt]

1 hour ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Proof? ..as in legit literature citing this?,  or is that just an assumption ?  

" Moss "  ...A simplistic, generic term that can be applied to anything from Pond scum -esque Algae,  to Bryophytes, and / or Selaginella and Liverworts, grow on pretty much every type of rock / mineral soil base if there is enough moisture to encourage / sustain growth  ..regardless of the rock's natural alkalinity / acidity.

Growing in shade might make a younger filifera look robusta - eyy, but not growing in a soil that is slightly more acid ..or alkaline...  If filifera, bigger,  trunking specimens would show definite flifera traits by now..

If there is any filifera in them,  they are likely hybrids.  Not pure ..not by a long shot.  Should be re-tagged..

 

I have proof from my own testing.  I have also seen it on an island in the Pacific. 

Do you have "proof" disproving this? Any literature? 

And yes, "almost"all known moss(not all) are acidic.  

Like the argument of moss grows on limestone.......

Moss does not have roots(fact).

In fact, I have documented being able to turn on/off red streaking by changing acidity on pure seedlings.

Whether you know, believe, or want literature makes no difference in facts. 

You should do your own testing, you might learn something. With or without literature. 

Prove my statement untrue!

[jwitt]

4 hours ago, Nikoskater said:

didn’t know that!

changing the soil will bring it back to its original form?

shurely if I decide to bring it home to plant it in my garden I will change the soil 

I do not know if all traits would return.  I'd do know juvenile and seedling filifera can show a pronounced difference between acidic and alkaline conditions. 

Color of leaves, fibers,  leggy growth, and red streaking(can turn on/off with application) is what I have observed. 

 

[Nikoskater]

1 hour ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Proof? ..as in legit literature citing this?,  or is that just an assumption ?  

" Moss "  ...A simplistic, generic term that can be applied to anything from Pond scum -esque Algae,  to Bryophytes, and / or Selaginella and Liverworts, grow on pretty much every type of rock / mineral soil base if there is enough moisture to encourage / sustain growth  ..regardless of the rock's natural alkalinity / acidity.

Growing in shade might make a younger filifera look robusta - eyy, but not growing in a soil that is slightly more acid ..or alkaline...  If filifera, bigger,  trunking specimens would show definite flifera traits by now..

If there is any filifera in them,  they are likely hybrids.  Not pure ..not by a long shot.  Should be re-tagged..

 

 

1 hour ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Proof? ..as in legit literature citing this?,  or is that just an assumption ?  

" Moss "  ...A simplistic, generic term that can be applied to anything from Pond scum -esque Algae,  to Bryophytes, and / or Selaginella and Liverworts, grow on pretty much every type of rock / mineral soil base if there is enough moisture to encourage / sustain growth  ..regardless of the rock's natural alkalinity / acidity.

Growing in shade might make a younger filifera look robusta - eyy, but not growing in a soil that is slightly more acid ..or alkaline...  If filifera, bigger,  trunking specimens would show definite flifera traits by now..

If there is any filifera in them,  they are likely hybrids.  Not pure ..not by a long shot.  Should be re-tagged..

 

So you’re guessing it’s not even an hybrid but a pure robusta?

[SeanK]

46 minutes ago, Nikoskater said:

 

So you’re guessing it’s not even an hybrid but a pure robusta?

@jwitt is one of the few guys who has access to "pure" filifera. I have only seen them out in ABQ and in San Antonio, TX.  Not been out west in 20 years.

[Silas_Sancona]

2 minutes ago, Nikoskater said:

So you’re guessing it’s not  even an hybrid but a pure robusta?

 

1 hour ago, Silas_Sancona said:

If there is any  filifera in them,  they are likely hybrids.  Not pure ..not by a long shot.  Should be re-tagged..

Living in a part of the world where these grow naturally ...and both are planted / pop up by the ...gazillions,   i've seen all three:  Pure filifera, Pure robusta, and plenty of hybrids  ...exhibiting various superficial signs of purity or hybrid - ness ..if that makes sense.

How much robusta vs. filifera is actually being exhibited in a given specimen would take a genetic test ..the only 100% sure way to confirm purity / non purity.

My neighbor has a cluster of 3 Washys. 2 are robusta, one is a hybrid. How do i know this?  fatter trunk than the skinny robustas, but skinnier than the really fat and pure ( ..or pure -er ) filifera  down the block, and over on the next block.. You see these differences in nursery specimens too.

Unless seed came from a pure filifera grove, where there are no robusta within a 10 or so mile radius ( Crude distance many insect pollinators can travel.  Actual distance traveled between flowering specimens could be less  ...or more ),  i'm fairly certain the specimens pictured lean more robusta than filifera.

   Still a good palm to have around, ...but not a pure filifera  Not based on what i've seen.

Discussion reminds me of trying to decipher Phoenix  crosses, ... another genus of palms that can be pretty care free when it comes to crosses between pure species.  Many more Phoenix species compared to Washngtona  ..so, you get a lot more variation between crosses / fun discussions regarding...

[Nikoskater]

I’ve quit my research for a pure filifera, since I don’t want a small plant, but an already grown one to put in the ground ( near my cidp) , but here in north of Italy the research seems to be even harder, so I’m willing to get one that’s decent sized and not a 100% robusta but at least an hybrid.

i’m sorry that I’ve created madness,  I didn’t want no one to argue, just looking for some experts advise!

[jwitt]

@Nikoskaterthe palm you are interested shows somewhat different traits the the others.  All I am saying is give it the best conditions that the species(filifera) are found naturally.  

Intense full sun

Alkaline soil and water

Moist roots during growing season

Do that out of the pot it is in, you may be pleasantly surprised.

This species has only been in gardens for a little over a century.  So no one on earth has really even grown one for half its supposed lifespan.  There are unknowns, mistruths, fallacies, all over the place about this species, which is found naturally, mostly in what would be considered swamps. 

Mind you, those swamps are found in hot, dry desert. 

 

 

 

[jwitt]

@Nikoskateryour pic complete with moss. Could it have been a bit different in the right conditions?  Those leaves are not robusta. 

These are robusta

[SM458]

These are pure Robusa, skinny long lanky trucks. Fronds are not big like California Fan Palm. 
 

[jwitt]

Look like robusta

As do the leaves

Looking down

 

 

[Nikoskater]

On 5/9/2024 at 3:29 AM, jwitt said:

@Nikoskateryour pic complete with moss. Could it have been a bit different in the right conditions?  Those leaves are not robusta. 

These are robusta

What do you mean?

excuse me but English is not my native language!

 

those leaves (the pic you reposted) are from the bigger plant that is out of my budget unfortunately

[jwitt]

To me, those leaves appear to be not robusta.  They lean more to the filifera side.

If introduced when younger, or from sprouting to more alkaline conditions, it may have even more stronger filifera traits.  

What I am ultimately saying, is if you want a palm(filifera),  which is most likely a hybrid, to bring out more of the filifera leanings(leaf color, fibers, etc) grow it in alkaline conditions.  

I believe the potted conditions complete with moss lean acidic.  My opinion 

So grab the younger one,  grow it in conditions that filifera naturally like(they love alkaline conditions),  you may see some changes in time.  

 I live in a strongly alkaline area.  I have introduced acidic conditions to my seedlings and have seen differences.   I have also seen this in a place with both conditions (alkaline/acidic) in close proximity on naturalized filifera. 

 

[Nikoskater]

Ok, got it!

planted in my garden, it has sun most of the day except for few hours of shade.

The rootball was pretty compact in the pot, I gave it a shake and planted with some softer and draining soil and gave it some water and then some transplant fertilizer.

i might have to research about alkaline/acidic soil, because I don’t know nothing about it!

Thanks everyone, I hope it’s gonna grow faster the the smaller one I had in the ground!

I’ll keep you updated!

[Leelanau Palms]

Recommend creating a larger circle without grass around your palm, covered with mulch. Like 1 meter diameter or so.

[MarcusH]

5 hours ago, Nikoskater said:

Ok, got it!

planted in my garden, it has sun most of the day except for few hours of shade.

The rootball was pretty compact in the pot, I gave it a shake and planted with some softer and draining soil and gave it some water and then some transplant fertilizer.

i might have to research about alkaline/acidic soil, because I don’t know nothing about it!

Thanks everyone, I hope it’s gonna grow faster the the smaller one I had in the ground!

I’ll keep you updated!

Agree to Jim. Your leaflets have deep cuts, a sign that it's leaning towards Filifera.  

[Nikoskater]

3 hours ago, Leelanau Palms said:

Recommend creating a larger circle without grass around your palm, covered with mulch. Like 1 meter diameter or so.

Why is that useful?

thanks for the tip btw!

[Leelanau Palms]

1. Reduce root competition from the grass.

2. Reduce risk of trunk damage from mowers/trimmers

[Nikoskater]

15 hours ago, Leelanau Palms said:

1. Reduce root competition from the grass.

2. Reduce risk of trunk damage from mowers/trimmers

Thanks!

didn’t know that root were developing even in surface, I thought they went down!

the trunk damage is no issue since I do it all by myself and take extra caution when close to plants and then I hand trim the area close!

and what about mulching?

to give nutrients?

[Leelanau Palms]

Mulching helps to:

1. Insulate and control soil temperature to protect from extremes that slow root growth

2. Reduce weed competition

3. Maintain even soil moisture and reduce water losses from the soil

4. Gently replace soil nutrients

5. Create a favorable environment for microscopic and macroscopic soil life

A larger mulch ring also keeps foot traffic away from the soil around the palm, reducing soil compaction. A larger ring will also hopefully reduce the amount of lawn fertilizer getting close to the palm.

[Ben G.]

I thought I would add to this thread, since I am hoping to get some opinions about whether this washingtonia is more filifera or robusta. I am trying to decide if I want to plant it in my yard, or if I should hold off to avoid owning a dead robusta trunk in a few years. 

I grabbed it from a road median in Phoenix where it was a bird poo 💩 volunteer. There were plenty of robusta and filifera in the area, so it could be just about any mix of the two. It has a lighter green color and a good amount of filaments on it, so maybe it is filifera leaning? What do you think?

Here is the little palm in question:

 

[SM458]

3 hours ago, Ben G. said:

I thought I would add to this thread, since I am hoping to get some opinions about whether this washingtonia is more filifera or robusta. I am trying to decide if I want to plant it in my yard, or if I should hold off to avoid owning a dead robusta trunk in a few years. 

I grabbed it from a road median in Phoenix where it was a bird poo 💩 volunteer. There were plenty of robusta and filifera in the area, so it could be just about any mix of the two. It has a lighter green color and a good amount of filaments on it, so maybe it is filifera leaning? What do you think?

Here is the little palm in question:

 

This seems to lean Filifera.

[Nikoskater]

On 5/18/2024 at 10:55 AM, Leelanau Palms said:

Mulching helps to:

1. Insulate and control soil temperature to protect from extremes that slow root growth

2. Reduce weed competition

3. Maintain even soil moisture and reduce water losses from the soil

4. Gently replace soil nutrients

5. Create a favorable environment for microscopic and macroscopic soil life

A larger mulch ring also keeps foot traffic away from the soil around the palm, reducing soil compaction. A larger ring will also hopefully reduce the amount of lawn fertilizer getting close to the palm.

I’ve cut the grass as low as I could by hand and put mulching/compost around the palms, but grass keeps growing trough! 

[Leelanau Palms]

You can hand pull the grass or use herbicide