CIDP recovery/death progress

[smatofu]

Canary Island Date Palm, freeze 10F damage. The palm was wrapped and heated,... obviously not enough! 

It is a continuation of this thread with a better title: https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/83670-spear-pull-moisture-after-rain/

A month after spear pull and a week after cut. 

About 90% of the top tissue is solid, 10% soft (damaged?).

Hydrogen peroxide bubbling is low to medium.

The top is wet every morning = there is water conductivity in the remaining tissue. Good? or Bad?

Avg daily temps recently about 75F, max 85F.

!!!Unfortunately, there is no growth!!! 😢  I don't know if it's still too cold? Or will the palm not recover and die?

 

Treatment:

- weekly hydrogen peroxide baths,

- daily copper and neem oil sprays, 

            (Weak mixture of copper fungicide, neem oil, insecticide, and bacteriacide...       I put everything ending with "CIDE" in it 😀, but weak concentration) 

- wrapped and covered at nights to keep it warm and dry.

 

Any opinions? Recommendations? 

 

 

 

[SeanK]

I'm no CIDP expert, so just a general remark. By late summer you should see the spear push up new growth. If not, it's dead.

 

[Ben G.]

5 minutes ago, smatofu said:

Canary Island Date Palm, freeze 10F damage. The palm was wrapped and heated,... obviously not enough! 

It is a continuation of this thread with a better title: https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/83670-spear-pull-moisture-after-rain/

A month after spear pull and a week after cut. 

About 90% of the top tissue is solid, 10% soft (damaged?).

Hydrogen peroxide bubbling is low to medium.

The top is wet every morning = there is water conductivity in the remaining tissue. Good? or Bad?

Avg daily temps recently about 75F, max 85F.

!!!Unfortunately, there is no growth!!! 😢  I don't know if it's still too cold? Or will the palm not recover and die?

 

Treatment:

- weekly hydrogen peroxide baths,

- daily copper and neem oil sprays, 

            (Weak mixture of copper fungicide, neem oil, insecticide, and bacteriacide...       I put everything ending with "CIDE" in it 😀, but weak concentration) 

- wrapped and covered at nights to keep it warm and dry.

 

Any opinions? Recommendations? 

 

 

 

I am not an expert, but I have trunk cut a sabal and couple of windmills in the last four or five years. I think your palm is dead. When I trunk cut my palms, I was always able to cut low enough to get to some white looking tissue that showed some growth relatively quickly. 

Maybe someone else here can give you a more favorable second opinion though.

[smatofu]

4 minutes ago, SeanK said:

By late summer...

 

I was hoping for some earlier resolutions... but you are right, all I can do is wait...

My other freeze damaged palms (windmills, mexican sabal), from previous years, were showing signs of recovery early spring, and fully recovered in summer. 

[SeanK]

2 minutes ago, smatofu said:

I was hoping for some earlier resolutions... but you are right, all I can do is wait...

 

Trachycarpus would push by July 4th.

[MSX]

12 minutes ago, smatofu said:

Any opinions? Recommendations?

Don't beat a dead horse!

[smatofu]

6 minutes ago, Ben OK said:

 When I trunk cut my palms, I was always able to cut low enough to get to some white looking tissue that showed some growth relatively quickly. 

I have exactly same experience, but those were windmills and sabals.  My hope CIDP needs more time...

[ChicagoPalma]

33 minutes ago, smatofu said:

Canary Island Date Palm, freeze 10F damage. The palm was wrapped and heated,... obviously not enough! 

It is a continuation of this thread with a better title: https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/83670-spear-pull-moisture-after-rain/

A month after spear pull and a week after cut. 

About 90% of the top tissue is solid, 10% soft (damaged?).

Hydrogen peroxide bubbling is low to medium.

The top is wet every morning = there is water conductivity in the remaining tissue. Good? or Bad?

Avg daily temps recently about 75F, max 85F.

!!!Unfortunately, there is no growth!!! 😢  I don't know if it's still too cold? Or will the palm not recover and die?

 

Treatment:

- weekly hydrogen peroxide baths,

- daily copper and neem oil sprays, 

            (Weak mixture of copper fungicide, neem oil, insecticide, and bacteriacide...       I put everything ending with "CIDE" in it 😀, but weak concentration) 

- wrapped and covered at nights to keep it warm and dry.

 

Any opinions? Recommendations? 

 

 

 

Best bet is to KEEP IT DRYYYYY!!!!  just spray some copper fungicide and maybe pour a little bit of Hydrogen peroxide and then leave it alone!!!!!! Cover it to keep the healthy tissue dry.

[smatofu]

6 weeks after spear pull. 2 weeks after cut.

There is a puddle of water at the cut every morning, ???which would indicate that the tissue is still alive???. I dry it.

Some tissue is still white. All tissue is hard. 

Low to medium peroxide bubbling. No flies. Smells bad, like freshly cut rotten salad (may be subjective).

Unfortunately, NO GROWTH! NO MOVEMENT!

No photos, because it looks almost exactly like 2 weeks ago. 

 

[Leelanau Palms]

RIP 🙏

[JLM]

That’s sounds solidly dead. The smell you describe is a “dead” giveaway.

[Silas_Sancona]

10 minutes ago, JLM said:

That’s sounds solidly dead. The smell you describe is a “dead” giveaway.

Yepp, time to ...



..and try again   ..or plant something else.

[Leelanau Palms]

Looking forward to seeing what you replace it with. 

[smatofu]

I may be wrong, but I think as long as there is tissue conducting water from roots to the top, something is still alive and there is tiny, tiny chance...

I will give it one more month...

 

[smatofu]

DEAD! ☠️ 💀👻

 

I cut a little bit more and I can put a stiff blade of grass inside (6 inches), meaning, there is a lot of open space inside the palm. Basically, the inside/meristem has rotted away.

You don't see CIDP around Dallas for a reason!

 

[Leelanau Palms]

RIP 🙏

[smatofu]

I checked Canary Islands winter low temperature: around 60F. 

(I should have done it before buying and planting the palm)

Dallas winter low temps can be from record 0F to 30F. 

My palm stood no chance!

 

 

[Foxpalms]

1 hour ago, smatofu said:

I checked Canary Islands winter low temperature: around 60F. 

(I should have done it before buying and planting the palm)

Dallas winter low temps can be from record 0F to 30F. 

My palm stood no chance!

 

 

They also grow at high altitudes though there.  They should be able to survive 20f.

[smatofu]

8 hours ago, Foxpalms said:

They also grow at high altitudes though there.  They should be able to survive 20f.

Temp 10-20F (3 night only, days above 30F):

I had mine heated and wrapped... it didn't help!  Maybe, in some perfect circumstances (well established, protected from wind, great soil, dry, etc) they can survive 20F.  

My CIDP was growing beautifully in summer and fall... then the 1st cold snap killed it... 

In addition, if the palm grew 10-20feet I would have no way to protect it well in winters. 

 

[CTX Palm King]

@smatofu I had an issue with the freeze two winters ago down here in NB TX and both of my CIDP’s were in rough shape. I made some mistakes in the attempt to save them. I trunk cut them down to white tissue and they both tried to recover. I treated them with Peroxide and the thing that ultimately killed them was insects and never ending rain. Ultimately they rotted so badly there was no hope.

I talked to a local guy who has large CIDP’s and he gave me advice. He said to never trunk cut. Just treat the spear pull with peroxide and insecticide and prevent rain from getting inside the crown. If you can avoid those two items they are tough as nails. They will come back. A larger CIDP wont need Peroxide and it stands like a 98% of recovery year after year.

Here are a few photos from when I initially trunk cut them. I kept cutting them down until I got to live tissue.

[smatofu]

9 hours ago, CTX Palm King said:

@smatofu I had an issue with the freeze two winters ago down here in NB TX and both of my CIDP’s were in rough shape. I made some mistakes in the attempt to save them. I trunk cut them down to white tissue and they both tried to recover. I treated them with Peroxide and the thing that ultimately killed them was insects and never ending rain. Ultimately they rotted so badly there was no hope.

I talked to a local guy who has large CIDP’s and he gave me advice. He said to never trunk cut. Just treat the spear pull with peroxide and insecticide and prevent rain from getting inside the crown. If you can avoid those two items they are tough as nails. They will come back. A larger CIDP wont need Peroxide and it stands like a 98% of recovery year after year.

Here are a few photos from when I initially trunk cut them. I kept cutting them down until I got to live tissue.

I did not cut at 1st. 

After spear pull, I waited a month with cutting. The trunk was always protected from rain but every morning there was a pool of water from tissue water conductivity. 

After not seeing any growth for 6 weeks total, 1-2weeks after cutting, I notices a soft spot at the cut surface. I push a foot-long blade of grass in that soft spot. All 12 inches went inside the palm without any resistance. There was a lot of empty space inside the trunk filled with water. 

 

 

[smatofu]

@CTX Palm King 

The question: can a palm with no sign of young fronds, no signs of growth, with some open space inside filled with water/juices...

can such a palm start growing again? 

BTW, I cut the palm at the end. whatever rotted deep inside the trunk and converted itself into water pulp, happened before my cut.