Jacksonville palms 9a/b

[trippc]

Hey fellow palm enthusiasts, I just became a first time home owner and am looking to plant some palms in my yard. I live in a 9a/b area in southwest Jacksonville FL. This being said I really wanted some coconut palms for their fruit and tropical look, however, I heard they are near impossible to keep alive up here. I may still try coconuts from seed(less costs if loss) in a pot that I can move indoors during cold snaps(40 degrees and lower) then outdoors all other days. 

Outside of the coconut, I am intrigued by the royal and king palms as a possible option for planting. I am aware that they are still zone pushing so I'd make sure they are planted on a south facing fence. With all this being said, i'd like to know what y'all think about my options, possible other species that have a tropical look, and whether any of the trees I mentioned are worth planting for long term survival. I don't mind having to cover them occasionally but would like to avoid it once they are tall. Also would love to hear from anyone who has experience with these trees i mentioned in 9a/b zones and how they worked for you. Thanks

[kinzyjr]

@trippc Welcome to PalmTalk!

Paging some folks from Jax and the areas close by: @Scott W @howfam @MikeB @edbrown_III

[Scott W]

Welcome to Palm Talk and congrats on the new home!

@kinzyjr has a Dwarf coconut variety that i always forget the name of that you could possibly try.  Its smaller so their is the possibility of keeping it potted and protected when Jax gets below freezing temps.

Outside of that, honestly, forget crownshaft palms unless you intend to keep them potted as well.  They won't survive in the ground....many have tried...most have failed.  There are a few that have them growingin ground (like the house right on the St John's river), but these are in a unique and rare micro climate if you ask me.  My two royal palms, king palms and foxtails didn't survive the 25f we had two years ago unprotected,  and besides, eventually they'd be too big to protect so in my mind it was a blessing.

Now what you could plant:  mule palm, Beccariophoenix alfredii,  Chamaedorea radicalis, Chamaedorea microspadix, Rhapis excelsa, Butia odorata and most Phoenix and Sabal varieties. 

[kinzyjr]

2 hours ago, Scott W said:

Welcome to Palm Talk and congrats on the new home!

@kinzyjr has a Dwarf coconut variety that i always forget the name of that you could possibly try.  Its smaller so their is the possibility of keeping it potted and protected when Jax gets below freezing temps.

Outside of that, honestly, forget crownshaft palms unless you intend to keep them potted as well.  They won't survive in the ground....many have tried...most have failed.  There are a few that have them growingin ground (like the house right on the St John's river), but these are in a unique and rare micro climate if you ask me.  My two royal palms, king palms and foxtails didn't survive the 25f we had two years ago unprotected,  and besides, eventually they'd be too big to protect so in my mind it was a blessing.

Now what you could plant:  mule palm, Beccariophoenix alfredii,  Chamaedorea radicalis, Chamaedorea microspadix, Rhapis excelsa, Butia odorata and most Phoenix and Sabal varieties. 

I think the variety of coconut mentioned is my Fiji Dwarf.  One thing to note about this variety is that it gets a very large, wide crown (~20ft. total diameter) at maturity and that crown tends to stay under 6 feet off the ground.  Another potential problem is that they tend to take more damage in the winter than the typical varieties like Green Malayan, Maypan, Panama Tall, and Atlantic Tall (Jamaican Tall). 

@trippc

Here are a few links you might find interesting:

Cold Hardiness Master Data: The bulk of the hardiness observations from this site, Dr. Noblick's spreadsheet, and observations from the 1957/1958 freeze and other freezes to current day are included in a spreadsheet you can sort and filter.  The last post in the thread contains the most updated spreadsheet.

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/61358-0000-cold-hardiness-observation-master-data/

Florida Christmas Freeze 2022: Palm damage and death observations from the advective cold event over Christmas 2022.

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/76409-florida-christmas-freeze-2022/

January 2022 Florida Freeze Report: Palm damage and death observations from the radiational cold event in January 2022.

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/72092-january-2022-florida-freeze-report/

Jacksonville-specific Links:

Goodby's Creek Roystonea regia Streetview: https://tinyurl.com/2h9zj66d

Jacksonville Royals:

• https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/58085-northern-most-royals-east-of-the-mississippi/
• https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/61438-range-of-royal-palms/

Palms Around Jacksonville: https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/69928-palms-around-town-jacksonville-fl/

Florida State College - Jacksonville - South Campus: This video is nearly 23 minutes of one of the best palm and cycad collections in Jacksonville and is narrated by David Casella.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx1pRbbX5OY

[Bkue]

On 3/23/2024 at 2:36 PM, trippc said:

Hey fellow palm enthusiasts, I just became a first time home owner and am looking to plant some palms in my yard. I live in a 9a/b area in southwest Jacksonville FL. This being said I really wanted some coconut palms for their fruit and tropical look, however, I heard they are near impossible to keep alive up here. I may still try coconuts from seed(less costs if loss) in a pot that I can move indoors during cold snaps(40 degrees and lower) then outdoors all other days. 

Outside of the coconut, I am intrigued by the royal and king palms as a possible option for planting. I am aware that they are still zone pushing so I'd make sure they are planted on a south facing fence. With all this being said, i'd like to know what y'all think about my options, possible other species that have a tropical look, and whether any of the trees I mentioned are worth planting for long term survival. I don't mind having to cover them occasionally but would like to avoid it once they are tall. Also would love to hear from anyone who has experience with these trees i mentioned in 9a/b zones and how they worked for you. Thanks

I zone push but am in Oviedo. I have a dwarf and Jamaican tall. I don’t expect to see 5yrs but they arent statements anyway. I have over 200 areca’s that are pushed, a bottle, 3 royals, 3 triple adonidias. The fun is seeing what you can do if you accept the fact it may not work. I would say try it, but understand your odds are bleak long term. 

[howfam]

Trippc:

Welcome to PalmTalk. I think Queen Palms and Ribbon Palms are good for your new location. They are both hardy and tropical looking. 

[trippc]

11 hours ago, Bkue said:

I zone push but am in Oviedo. I have a dwarf and Jamaican tall. I don’t expect to see 5yrs but they arent statements anyway. I have over 200 areca’s that are pushed, a bottle, 3 royals, 3 triple adonidias. The fun is seeing what you can do if you accept the fact it may not work. I would say try it, but understand your odds are bleak long term. 

Yeah I think I'll try my luck with some royals and Christmas palms. I'll just cover them when Temps get below 40. Then, for Coconuts, I'll grow them in pots outside majority of spring and summer. Then bring the Coconuts in during our cold snaps. Anything I plant will be south facing, and mulched in. Plus I plan on adding other things like Bananas and foliage around the royals, in hopes of creating a small microclimate. All that, I hope, should protect it through its first few years. And, maybe I get lucky, like the guy off kings Colony rd. Of course I'll keep the forum updated with my results.  

[Gottagrowemall]

Crownshafted palms like Christmas, Royals, Foxtails, etc. I tried them all in Palm Coast and even with some covering everything died or would have without extensive help. The only survivors were the foxtails that I draped heated christmas light bulbs on. My Christmas palms are right next to my garage and I tuck them under the roofline so they survive and look good.

 

In hindsight though I would plant ZERO crownshafted palms if I could do it over. I have killed 3 royals in Palm Coast in less than 2 years and some started at 12 feet overall height and had a growing season under their belt before the cold. If you only have 2-3 crownshafted palms and have a plan of building a structure that covers completely or provides heat you could pull it off. Jacksonville St Aug Palm Coast area is likely to have a minimum of 4 nights under 35 annually and potentially up to 20 with some nights in the 20s. These crownshafted palms look like crap after 3-4 nights of frost in the low 30s uncovered. And with coverage nights in the 20s will still hammer them without heat.

 

My sad experience lol. Like Scott W said move on to the still awesome and tropical options he listed.

Edited March 27 by Gottagrowemall

[trippc]

24 minutes ago, Gottagrowemall said:

Crownshafted palms like Christmas, Royals, Foxtails, etc. I tried them all in Palm Coast and even with some covering everything died or would have without extensive help. The only survivors were the foxtails that I draped heated christmas light bulbs on. My Christmas palms are right next to my garage and I tuck them under the roofline so they survive and look good.

 

In hindsight though I would plant ZERO crownshafted palms if I could do it over. I have killed 3 royals in Palm Coast in less than 2 years and some started at 12 feet overall height and had a growing season under their belt before the cold. If you only have 2-3 crownshafted palms and have a plan of building a structure that covers completely or provides heat you could pull it off. Jacksonville St Aug Palm Coast area is likely to have a minimum of 4 nights under 35 annually and potentially up to 20 with some nights in the 20s. These crownshafted palms look like crap after 3-4 nights of frost in the low 30s uncovered. And with coverage nights in the 20s will still hammer them without heat.

 

My sad experience lol. Like Scott W said move on to the still awesome and tropical options he listed.

Dang hate to hear that, but thanks for the honesty. I may just have to call it quits on that dream then after all.

[EPaul]

No need to give up your dream, it just needs an adjustment. There are still tropical-looking Cycads and Palms that will grow for you in Northeast Florida: Cycas Revoluta, Cycas Panzhihuaensis, Dioon Edule, varying Sabal species, Syagrus Romanzoffiana, Washingtonia Robusta, Rhapis Excelsa, Phoenix Reclinata, Livistona Chinensis, Australis, & Decora, Arenga Engleri, Acoelorrhaphe Wrightii, and even understory palms like Chamadorea Radicalis and Chuniophoenix Nana. Mix in some Alocasia, Banana, and hardier Agaves/Mangaves and you'll have a very tropical look.

Edited March 27 by EPaul

[idontknowhatnametuse]

Try getting an Acrocomia totai

[trippc]

26 minutes ago, idontknowhatnametuse said:

Try getting an Acrocomia totai

Just heard of this palm. Looks really nice, any clue where I can find these? Maybe ones that are already sprouted?

[ChicagoPalma]

2 hours ago, trippc said:

Dang hate to hear that, but thanks for the honesty. I may just have to call it quits on that dream then after all.

I’m planning to grow a queen palm in Chicago and while I may be crazy I’ll probably get 10 years out of it because of my very short growing season, but back to the topic, don’t give up, what I recommend for the crown shaft palms and coconut palms is protect with c9 lights wrapped around trunk and fronds, and wrap the crown shaft with frost cloth not too tight and you can use heating tape. I zone-push in Chicago and I use the same method I just told you for some tropical plants that I put in the ground too early that get affected by large frost below 28F.

 

 

 

 

[trippc]

1 hour ago, ChicagoPalma said:

I’m planning to grow a queen palm in Chicago and while I may be crazy I’ll probably get 10 years out of it because of my very short growing season, but back to the topic, don’t give up, what I recommend for the crown shaft palms and coconut palms is protect with c9 lights wrapped around trunk and fronds, and wrap the crown shaft with frost cloth not too tight and you can use heating tape. I zone-push in Chicago and I use the same method I just told you for some tropical plants that I put in the ground too early that get affected by large frost below 28F.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the advise I'll keep that in mind.

[FlaPalmLover]

I second the mule palm suggestion. I've seen those planted increasingly even in Central Florida and they're nice palms. Once they get tall they look pretty tropical. I'd imagine majesty palms would be marginal up there or I'd suggest them too. I wouldn't personally suggest beccariophoenix alfredii unless you don't mind super slow growth or can afford to buy a field grown, larger specimen and transplant it.

I have always been a fan of chamaerops as well, which are kind of expensive if you want ones that are already mature sized, but they are definitely really stately palms, particularly when they're in clusters. 

[SeanK]

You might try Copernicia alba.

Remember, it's easier to protect small palms than large palms. It's better to hide the delicate stuff in the back yard rather than out in front.

[Merlyn]

There's some good advice in here, going for a few "reliably hardy" palms like Livistona Chinensis is a good choice.  "Zone pushing" is great if you have the time and effort to spend protecting them. 

Coconuts are okay for a patio palm, especially if you can take them inside when it's going to be in the low 30s.  But they'll be an annual up in Jax if you try them in the ground.  Alternately, Beccariophoenix Alfredii is getting to be more available, and they'll take mid 20s with frost at my house and only take a bit of burn.  So if you want the coconut look, there is nothing closer to it, imo.  As an example, here's my Alfredii looking pristine after ~26F and frost.  Around it are a Dypsis/Chrysalidocarpus Lutescens (Areca palm) on the left, a Caryota Mitis (Fishtail) behind it, and a Hyophorbe Lagenicaulis (Bottle palm) in the front right.  Those three are utterly torched and the Alfredii just laughed at it.  This Alfredii is in the ground ~3.5 years from a ~4' tall 3 gallon palm, so they are fairly quick growers.  The only downside is they are not too sturdy in hurricanes, and tend to try and fall over.  In Orlando I had to stake up my 5 big Alfredii after hurricanes, but they've all grown just fine afterwards.  The grower I bought them from (MB Palms - S side of Orlando) planted his really deep, and his looked great during last year's open house sale.  He said he hadn't had any problems with crown or stem rot even though they were planted a lot deeper than the "normal" recommendations.

[kinzyjr]

@Merlyn That photo does a  great job of driving home the difference between Beccariophoenix alfredii and the other species listed.  

@trippc

Back in October 2021, the First Coast Palm and Cycad Society (FCPCS) invited the Central Florida Palm and Cycad Society (CFPACS) to be a part of their meeting in Glen St. Mary.  The host has been growing palms longer than some of us have been alive.  There are some photos at the thread below that will give you some ideas about what he grows in a climate slightly cooler in the winter than where you're located:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/70468-first-coast-palm-and-cycad-society-fall-meeting-10162021/

If you get a chance to visit St. Johns Botanical Garden and Nature Preserve, you might see some things there you like, but keep in mind they have a staff that shelters some of their plants during cold snaps.

https://www.stjohnsbotanicalgarden.org/

[trippc]

23 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

@Merlyn That photo does a  great job of driving home the difference between Beccariophoenix alfredii and the other species listed.  

@trippc

Back in October 2021, the First Coast Palm and Cycad Society (FCPCS) invited the Central Florida Palm and Cycad Society (CFPACS) to be a part of their meeting in Glen St. Mary.  The host has been growing palms longer than some of us have been alive.  There are some photos at the thread below that will give you some ideas about what he grows in a climate slightly cooler in the winter than where you're located:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/70468-first-coast-palm-and-cycad-society-fall-meeting-10162021/

If you get a chance to visit St. Johns Botanical Garden and Nature Preserve, you might see some things there you like, but keep in mind they have a staff that shelters some of their plants during cold snaps.

https://www.stjohnsbotanicalgarden.org/

Wow that was alot growing up there. Didn't realize how many species of palms and cycads that can grow up in this corner of the state.. One palm you took a pic of caught my eye though, could've sworn i've seen it before but can't pin it. Do you know what the name of this palm is?

Also thank you for the plethora of information you've shared with me, it's definitely helping me wrap my head around all of the possibilities.

[kinzyjr]

Just now, trippc said:

Wow that was alot growing up there. Didn't realize how many species of palms and cycads that can grow up in this corner of the state.. One palm you took a pic of caught my eye though, could've sworn i've seen it before but can't pin it. Do you know what the name of this palm is?

Also thank you for the plethora of information you've shared with me, it's definitely helping me wrap my head around all of the possibilities.

That looks like a Phoenix sylvestris.  While I love the Phoenix genus, they have taken a beating from Lethal Bronzing down here.  In particular, Phoenix canariensis, Phoenix sylvestris, and Phoenix dactylifera are the hardest hit.  If you like the Phoenix look, Phoenix roebelenii (Pygmy Date Palm) usually doesn't handle below 25F all that well.  Most of the time they take a pretty high amount of damage from temperatures that low.  Phoenix reclinata, or at least the hybrids we refer to as that in Florida, are a clumping palm. Even if they get torched, they tend to come back from the rootball and seem to have some resistance to Lethal Bronzing.  I haven't seen one die from it here yet, and Lakeland is probably the second-worst area in the state for Lethal Bronzing.  They are all armed with thorns down near the crown, so be careful trimming them if you get any of them.

You're welcome for the help.  That's what we're all here to do - help and learn.  You're welcome to attend the CFPACS Meeting if you can make the drive.  We'll have a few folks from Jacksonville and the St. Augustine region there.

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/82819-central-florida-palm-cycad-society-spring-2024-meeting/

[Merlyn]

As @kinzyjr mentioned, a disease called Lethal Bronzing (LB, aka Texas Phoenix Palm Decline or TPPD) is wiping out a lot of Phoenix species in Florida.  It wasn't really around my area (North side of Orlando) until about a year ago.  Personally I have 9 Phoenix in the yard (out of ~313 palms) and would not recommend anyone to buy one.  Essentially it's just a matter of time until LB gets there, if it hasn't already.  Phoenix are also brutally thorny near the base of the fronds, I ripped out a couple of clustering types because I was tired of getting stabbed.

One interesting palm that's kind of coconutty is Syagrus "x Montgomeryana" aka Schizophylla x Romanzoffiana.  It has fairly large fronds with an interesting draping leaflet look.  It's also hardy to the mid 20s or lower 20s.

Another interesting super-hardy "shrubby" type palm is Allagoptera Arenaria.  They are slow growing but have a really cool "curly-q" looking leaf shape...and are hardy into the lower 20s.

Arenga Engleri (Dwarf Sugar Palm) is also super hardy and makes a good clustering palm.  I have 11 clusters in my yard.

Bismarckia Nobilis is the giant silver fan palm, and if you get a very silvery one (purple-red leaves when young) they are also hardy into the lower 20s.  The three in my yard took minimal burn from ~25F and frost.

[RedRabbit]

Regarding king palms, I believe @Sandy Loam kept some alive in Gainesville for about 5 years so they might do okay in Jacksonville for awhile. 

[idontknowhatnametuse]

5 hours ago, trippc said:

Just heard of this palm. Looks really nice, any clue where I can find these? Maybe ones that are already sprouted?

I don't really know where they could sell them because I don't live in the United States but I saw that there are some mature Acrocomia totai in Dade City, Maybe you could ask someone for seeds or plants if they have already germinated one.

[Lou-StAugFL]

I am really pleased with my Beccariophoenix alfredii in St. Augustine. Probably warmer than your area but it has never been damaged by cold.  Gives you a very coconut look when young and much more cold and frost tolerant than I expected and my two have been in the ground for quite a few years now.

[trippc]

@kinzyjr @Merlyn Dang, I hate to hear that. The sylvestris was the palm my wife was really into. Are there any other similar date palms that aren't affected by LB? 

[Merlyn]

Theoretically there are a lot of palms susceptible to LB, it is known to kill some Sabals, Queens, Pindos, and others.  But it doesn't appear to kill many others, at least not that I have seen.  I saw a patch of Sylvestris all die from it,  and a bunch of other Sabals and Queens nearby were unaffected.  So it's hard to say what others might actually die from it.  But definitely Sylvestris and Dactylifera are VERY susceptible.  I have not seen a Pygmy Date die from it, nor a Reclinata.  

I am not sure what others might look like  Phoenix Sylvestris.  Mayne Elaeis Guineensis?  

[kinzyjr]

9 hours ago, trippc said:

Dang, I hate to hear that. The sylvestris was the palm my wife was really into. Are there any other similar date palms that aren't affected by LB? 

If you can get a Phoenix rupicola, they have a more tropical look than most of the other Phoenix species.  They aren't quite as hardy as Phoenix sylvestris, but they are good to mid-20s.  There are a bunch here that have been around for ages.  Another option is getting something crossed with Phoenix reclinata.  The two hybrids I see often are with Phoenix roebelenii and Phoenix canariensis.  I haven't seen these hybrids catch Lethal Bronzing, but no guarantees.  You'll get a clumping palm that is either thinner and more graceful (crossed with roebelenii) or fewer stems with more bulk (crossed with canariensis).

[trippc]

23 hours ago, Lou-StAugFL said:

I am really pleased with my Beccariophoenix alfredii in St. Augustine. Probably warmer than your area but it has never been damaged by cold.  Gives you a very coconut look when young and much more cold and frost tolerant than I expected and my two have been in the ground for quite a few years now.

@Lou-StAugFL Just curious, how are your Archontophoenix cunninghamianas' doing after our north east, florida winter? recovering from any burns i hope, and how bad were the burns if it did get it?

Edited March 29 by trippc

[Merlyn]

@trippc you could look at Acrocomia Totai as a Sylvester replacement.  They are thorny, but also hardy to the lower 20s.  I don't think Elaeis Guineensis is hardy for Jax.