Polar Vortex

[3 Milesfrom Gulf of Mexico]

46F in Pinellas County Fl this morning  and this guy decided to open up.

4711CBEF-555B-4A72-9BCB-F066F6C8A0AB.heicFetching info...

IMG_0644.heicFetching info...

Edited January 17, 2024 by 3 Milesfrom Gulf of Mexico
picture

[Leelanau Palms]

Beautiful!

[Sabal King]

OK.. quick update.  I'll do a video, and pictures tomorrow when it's warmer.. albeit, it's nearly 405  I'll take it after this week.

Everything that would have burned (i'm pronouncing IMHO NON leaf hardy in DFW) has shown its colors already.  Same thing happened last year.. This list includes

- One of my S. uresana (the other two from another source, are a dark emerald green whereas this one is a lighter olive'ish green).  The olive'ish green one up front, burned bigtime last year, crisped up, and same thing this year.  It came back vigorously, but sadly at this point, nothing to show for it until we get into late spring\summer.. they are painfully slow.

- 3x S. bermudana - just not leaf hardy here in DFW.  They burned bigtime last year, same thing this year, burned to a crisp.  These are 5-10 gallon sized planting now, been in the ground multiple years.

- 1x S. blackburniana ... jury is out on this one.  Planted a 5g last spring, grew nicely, got burned badly last year, this year only the oldest leaf burned... newer ones, look spotty, but actually, OK.  This one may be hardening off here...  if it can handle this weather, oh doggie, we have a long-term winner

- younger S. mexicana... I have two that are in the ground , both burned to a crisp.  My old '21 15g survivor mexicana burned badly last year, this year, just the old growth.. it's slowly hardening off the older it gets.  The other ones as they get older, they will harden up.. seems to be the pattern here.

That's it for now, although I haven't walked around incredibly much yet...

Leaf hardy, with minimal or no damage (multiple years in a row)

- S. brazoriensis

- S. lisa

- S. birmingham (some of my older ones suffered some foliar damage, which is, kinda interesting, probably 10g while 5g did not.  They all come from the same parent, which is interesting)

- S. louisiana

- S. uresana (dark green variety)

- S. minor (duh)

- S. palmetto.  This is an interesting one.. I got this from a buddie's nursery in NC 3 yrs ago, NEVER protected it, never... and this thing literally is emerald green, looks like nothing happened.  This happened the last two winters as well.  Remarkable genetics on this one.

- S. miamiensis

- S. palmetto (Bald Head Island)

- Brahea armata.. this one is TINY but for two years in a row now, is a trooper with weather... i'm amazed, and came from a local specimen's seed.

- Trachycarpus fortunei.  Our '21 freeze survivors got shriveled fronds, and look awful.  I dont like these anyways, but they survived, have been neglected, and continue to keep a spot here.

 

Yet to be un-wrapped and have NO idea.

- S. repens

- S. rosei

- Butia x Jubea

- Jubea x Butia

- Butia rescue

- Washingtonia filifera (DFW '21 survivor). I just threw frost cloth around them for their first winter... curious to see what these look like.

- Nannhrrops ritchiana (had a black garbage over it, that's it no heat)

 

Stay tuned... when we get damage every year, it's evident VERY quickly (typically within a day or two) and foliar damage is a great precursor to more serious issues to watch out for.

[BigBilly]

  On 1/17/2024 at 9:28 PM, Sabal King said:

OK.. quick update.  I'll do a video, and pictures tomorrow when it's warmer.. albeit, it's nearly 405  I'll take it after this week.

Everything that would have burned (i'm pronouncing IMHO NON leaf hardy in DFW) has shown its colors already.  Same thing happened last year.. This list includes

- One of my S. uresana (the other two from another source, are a dark emerald green whereas this one is a lighter olive'ish green).  The olive'ish green one up front, burned bigtime last year, crisped up, and same thing this year.  It came back vigorously, but sadly at this point, nothing to show for it until we get into late spring\summer.. they are painfully slow.

- 3x S. bermudana - just not leaf hardy here in DFW.  They burned bigtime last year, same thing this year, burned to a crisp.  These are 5-10 gallon sized planting now, been in the ground multiple years.

- 1x S. blackburniana ... jury is out on this one.  Planted a 5g last spring, grew nicely, got burned badly last year, this year only the oldest leaf burned... newer ones, look spotty, but actually, OK.  This one may be hardening off here...  if it can handle this weather, oh doggie, we have a long-term winner

- younger S. mexicana... I have two that are in the ground , both burned to a crisp.  My old '21 15g survivor mexicana burned badly last year, this year, just the old growth.. it's slowly hardening off the older it gets.  The other ones as they get older, they will harden up.. seems to be the pattern here.

That's it for now, although I haven't walked around incredibly much yet...

Leaf hardy, with minimal or no damage (multiple years in a row)

- S. brazoriensis

- S. lisa

- S. birmingham (some of my older ones suffered some foliar damage, which is, kinda interesting, probably 10g while 5g did not.  They all come from the same parent, which is interesting)

- S. louisiana

- S. uresana (dark green variety)

- S. minor (duh)

- S. palmetto.  This is an interesting one.. I got this from a buddie's nursery in NC 3 yrs ago, NEVER protected it, never... and this thing literally is emerald green, looks like nothing happened.  This happened the last two winters as well.  Remarkable genetics on this one.

- S. miamiensis

- S. palmetto (Bald Head Island)

- Brahea armata.. this one is TINY but for two years in a row now, is a trooper with weather... i'm amazed, and came from a local specimen's seed.

- Trachycarpus fortunei.  Our '21 freeze survivors got shriveled fronds, and look awful.  I dont like these anyways, but they survived, have been neglected, and continue to keep a spot here.

 

Yet to be un-wrapped and have NO idea.

- S. repens

- S. rosei

- Butia x Jubea

- Jubea x Butia

- Butia rescue

- Washingtonia filifera (DFW '21 survivor). I just threw frost cloth around them for their first winter... curious to see what these look like.

- Nannhrrops ritchiana (had a black garbage over it, that's it no heat)

 

Stay tuned... when we get damage every year, it's evident VERY quickly (typically within a day or two) and foliar damage is a great precursor to more serious issues to watch out for.

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Yikes !!! 405 , but i gotta try out a bald head island  and a lisa 

[Foxpalms]

Looks like tonight will be the worst night, it's currently 33f at 10pm.

Much better weather next week.

[Xenon]

My low this morning was "only 20F" vs the 16F forecast, 24F at Hobby and central Houston vs the 18F forecast. Guess I'm thankful the weather threw us a little bone 🤣

The zone 10 palms will have to wait till the weekend to be uncovered but some of my subtropical trees in body bags with mini lights are looking quite ok. Lila avocado looks the same (burns are from summer) and Pixie mandarin and Cara Cara orange just have some minor tip burn. 

 

 

[Chester B]

  On 1/17/2024 at 7:20 PM, southpacific73 said:

Chester B PNW misses you…come back lol!  

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After seeing what's been happening in Portland and the rest of the PNW, I'm not so sure I'm missing it!
 

How long have you been below freezing?

[Xenon]

Completely exposed and unprotected Sabal casuarium looks fine for now

Sabals guatemalensis is discolored and some burn is already showing, will probably at least partially defoliate. Now it's confirmed to NOT be Sabal mexicana, seed source was in Belize. 

 

Edited January 17, 2024 by Xenon

[ZPalms]

I saw that most of the US is suppose to warm up in the coming week by a good amount, I'm seeing 60s and 70s in the days coming and decent night time lows

 

[Xenon]

Chopped up queen with a 5g bucket of water and a blanket, bud area looks ok

 

The 25 year old Livistona chinensis is going to defoliate again. Haven't seen anything near a full 360 degree crown since 2021 😭

 

Sabal rosei 

[PalmsNC]

  On 1/17/2024 at 11:12 PM, ZPalms said:

I saw that most of the US is suppose to warm up in the coming week by a good amount, I'm seeing 60s and 70s in the days coming and decent night time lows

 

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We aren’t out the woods yet… February 2015 and 2014 don’t look to dissimilar to the pattern progression we are headed down. Enjoy the warmup but yeah I think it’s not gon be an easy feb. Bright side averages rise rapidly and the bottom of the cold rises so less chance of wild -5 degrees like Tennessee got  

[WSimpson]

  On 1/17/2024 at 11:12 PM, ZPalms said:

I saw that most of the US is suppose to warm up in the coming week by a good amount, I'm seeing 60s and 70s in the days coming and decent night time lows

 

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I can't wait for that warm up Z . Maybe that will be the worst of the winter for this year ?

Will

[Las Palmas Norte]

  On 1/17/2024 at 11:04 PM, Chester B said:

After seeing what's been happening in Portland and the rest of the PNW, I'm not so sure I'm missing it!

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I think locally we didn't do too bad here, where all lows were within the 8b parameters. Time will tell but visually everything is not showing any of the early indicators of damage. I haven't heard any reports from the Puget Sound or the Portland areas. They could be buried in this thread somewhere.

[L.A.M.]

This cold wave made me decide against going to New Bern to replace the Birmingham palmettos I lost in January 2022. (I planted them in May 2021, so they may not have been fully established, and they were in a bad microclimate anyways.) As frustrating as the wait of over a decade for seed bearing individuals will be, this cold wave made me realize that it’ll nearly certainly be better in the long run to grow my Birmingham, Brazoria and Louisiana palmettos from seed so that I have a lot more of them from the same amount of money and they’re germinated and raised hardened in this climate. Plus, then I’ll have a lot more to work with in the long run too. It got to about -5 °F throughout most of Middle Tennessee away from Nashville and major lakes with some spots (including parts of mine) even getting to about -10 °F - a real nasty surprise just thirteen months after what had previously been our worst cold wave in the 21st century. In the meantime, I could show my customers that they can prune their needle palms to make them look more like most palms do if they so wish. (Dwarf palmettos have underground trunks, while needle palms simply retain their old leaves.)

Speaking of needle palms, I’d also been leaning towards growing some needle palms from seed in addition to getting another to grow in a pot so that I can divide its “pups” (as some other palm enthusiasts call them). Most needle palms in the nursery trade are male for some reason, but surely seeds would result in a nearly even split of both male and female needle palms. It could also be beneficial for the species in the long run, given that they’re a threatened species.

Last but not least, I’m also thinking that the best places to plant the tree-sized types of palms may be along the northern edge of the meadow where the old shooting range is (which is in a valley and extends partway up the hillside). That way, they’re lower in elevation but above the floodplain that can trap temperature inversions, and they’re sheltered just enough by trees to not get as much frost but also given enough sun that they can grow more quickly. Perhaps we could also expand the one where the old campground is to the north bank of the creek so that there are similar conditions there and have a third site further down along our Holly Point which is shaded by trees but so steep that sun penetrates anyways. Those may also be the best places to replace my Carolina cherry laurels should it be necessary - more protection from the worst but also more sun to speed up growth.

I will admit, I was shocked that this cold wave actually got as bad as it did, and I’m really worried now. Still, I know it’s probably overblown. My needle palm and dwarf palmetto both survived last time (the former even without damage) despite the hostile microclimates I planted them in, and the deep snow that caused this extra cold in the first place could also serve as an insulator. Plus, I could fertilize my palms as soon as this frigid cold ends; monocot trees/shrubs like bamboo, palms and yuccas not only are evergreen but never truly stop growing as long as they’re alive, even though they slow down in poor conditions. Yes, I know the salt poisoning risk, but I'll be careful not to overdo it, and Tennessee is very rainy. Their new growth is just as hardened against cold as their old growth, unlike dicot and coniferous evergreen trees/shrubs which have more fragile new growth that gradually hardens. I could also use my copper fungicide around the meristem preemptively to stop potential infections of the growing point before they can get a foothold, which I did with my dwarf palmetto last time and didn’t cause any harm.

Ultimately, AccuWeather says it got to 1 °F in Buffalo Valley and -9 °F in Baxter, Chestnut Mound and Granville. This is extremely damning; I seriously doubt my needle palm will be getting away from this unscathed a second time! Still, I have hope that both of my palms (maybe even my Carolina cherry laurels, although I’m more doubtful of them) could survive, however worried I am nonetheless. The same deep snow that locked in the warm ground and reflected heat back to space is also an insulator for plants. Furthermore, dwarf palmettos’ growing points are underground, and needle palms have been known to recover from temperatures as low as -24 °F in fertile soil and the right general climate. For the fourth year in a row, my southern magnolia has also been at least partially bronzed, given that this happens to ones in full sun even before it reaches zero and even happens to shaded ones if they get subzero. At this point, I expect the same story with both my needle palm and dwarf palmetto (which was also the case with the latter last time) but both to ultimately survive. My dwarf palmetto may still emerge unscathed given the strong temperature disparity between Buffalo Valley and the ridge to the north, but I somewhat doubt it because I planted it on the south bank of the creek and in the floodplain itself. My Carolina cherry laurels are more likely than not toast, although I'm probably still going to wait and see whether the snow that caused this extreme cold insulated them before deciding to replace them.

I’m calling this our worst cold wave since December 1989, when most of Middle Tennessee got negative teens. Yes, worse than January 1994, February 1996, January 2003, January 2014 and December 2022, all of which also sent us below zero.

  On 1/17/2024 at 11:32 PM, PalmsNC said:

We aren’t out the woods yet… February 2015 and 2014 don’t look to dissimilar to the pattern progression we are headed down. Enjoy the warmup but yeah I think it’s not gon be an easy feb. Bright side averages rise rapidly and the bottom of the cold rises so less chance of wild -5 degrees like Tennessee got  

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Maybe. I don't recall a bad January cold wave in 2015 that preceded the February one. I'd say it more closely resembles the times we had an unusually warm December then the Arctic air got released all at once in January. Of course a February cold wave is possible, but I seriously doubt it'll be intense nor long-lasting if it happens. The Arctic air has simply already been partially drained by this. I was kind of relieved when I realized we'd be getting a January one, given that I do NOT want it to happen in February or March.

[MarcusH]

Came home from work.  It was already getting dark so I took some pictures of my palms . The only palms I've wrapped with frost cloth were my Queens ( no other heating source )  None of my palms look beaten up , no spear pull with plenty of green left. I expect the Queens to defoliate,  maybe . My Robusta is on its way to defoliate,  my Filibustas no sign of any damage.  Thank the Lord for bringing us milder temperatures than predicted.  It only got down to 19F .  Again like last year I deep watered my palms before the freeze and it seems to benefit them like last year. 

[N8ALLRIGHT]

  On 1/17/2024 at 8:47 PM, LakeEriePalms said:

Good afternoon, 

Brand new to this forum and have enjoyed reading some of the earlier chats. Question about windmill palm and winter. Its a well established palm in pot and its currently in the garage during this cold spell (UV lights for some fake sun) Temperature in the garage hasn't gotten below freezing but has been stuck between 33-40F for the last few days.  Ive moved my Musas that were in the garage inside but the windmill is too big for that (Unless absolutely needed) 

So long story short, how long can it stay in the 30s without any damage? 

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Don't sweat that windmill, it's fine. My windmills in pots stay outside till mid 20s,then they come in.

[Swolte]

  On 1/17/2024 at 9:28 PM, Sabal King said:

Brahea armata.. this one is TINY but for two years in a row now, is a trooper with weather... i'm amazed, and came from a local specimen's seed.

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Thanks for your list! This has mostly been my experience too in past years, however, your Armata is interesting. Did not expect a small one to do that well. The cold has been harsh on the ones I have (and had)!

[UK_Palms]

-4.1C / 24.6F here at 4am. Not quite as cold as the Met Office were forecasting, but still pretty cold regardless. There are still another 4 hours of radiational cooling left to go however, so it will drop much lower yet.

Not many places have escaped an air frost tonight. Basically the entire country is at, or below, freezing right now. It’s almost as bad as the January freeze last winter, almost.

 

St James Park in central London is down to a chilly -1.4C / 29F at 4am. ❄️🥶

Notice the dew point and humidity. A sign of just how dry this freeze is. Cold, dry polar air.

[Axel Amsterdam]

the middle of the UK seems coldest this time

[Axel Amsterdam]

but the larger London area is also pretty cold

[southpacific73]

  On 1/17/2024 at 11:04 PM, Chester B said:

After seeing what's been happening in Portland and the rest of the PNW, I'm not so sure I'm missing it!
 

How long have you been below freezing?

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Since last Thursday when our temperatures dropped to 1C to -14C i(33F-7F) in a couple of hours with brutal Arctic winds from the north. The winds did die down by Saturday but it was still below freezing. 
 

I need to pull a you and just leave Canada! Can’t handle the cold weather anymore.

[southpacific73]

  On 1/17/2024 at 8:53 PM, Las Palmas Norte said:

Wow, I'll say! We have been spared the worst of it, although 5" of snow is enough. It did clear around 9 am and the sun is helping melt the offending flakes.

 

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Lucky you as we got the full blast of snow.  11” of snow before it stopped at around 3pm. I’m so done with winter now!

[Chester B]

  On 1/18/2024 at 3:23 PM, southpacific73 said:

Since last Thursday when our temperatures dropped to 1C to -14C i(33F-7F) in a couple of hours with brutal Arctic winds from the north. The winds did die down by Saturday but it was still below freezing. 
 

I need to pull a you and just leave Canada! Can’t handle the cold weather anymore.

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That is a long time!  I saw videos of all the devastation of the palms in Vancouver from last winter.  How many are going to make it though this one too?

 

[jwf1983]

KSLousiana — I never said it’s like Louisiana in the DC Metro area.  While I’d love that, I know that it’s not like that here.  That said, I’m not sure where your family member live here, but I can tell you there is wide variation between areas in the suburbs vs in the warmest parts of the city proper, 20-30 ft elevation.  While you are correct, it DOES freeze often, even in my neighborhood.  Even during the peak of winter, most nights that go below freezing do so for a an hour or two,  by a degree or two.  Yes, there are days that it’s much lower, but that’s a handful of days each winter.  Last two days were forecasted to go down to 13 degrees and 15 degrees respectively, and it only made it down to 20 and 25. While that’s surly enough to zap a hibiscus, it has yet to kill off anything I have growing here for 10 + years.  I am as diligent with weather data as I am with my plants, so, unlike many of the enthusiasts here riding on emotion, I focus on the data and being realistic.  My house is marginal zone 8a. I know there will be wildly erratic winters with cold snaps that test everything I have growing.  But, at least I know that already.

[Sabal King]

Did a quick walkthrough today, and exactly as I posted yesterday.. the ones I knew would burn, burned, the rest... well I just did a video walkthrough, and am VERY pleasantly surprised... wow!  Hardening off my Sabals in ground now (many as strap leaf seedlings) appears to be paying off.

 

[DTS]

I really don't know if my needle is going to survive this one, just because I was a little too late to put a greenhouse over it before it snowed in November and now the ground will freeze in there.

[DTS]

  On 1/18/2024 at 7:01 PM, DTS1 said:

I really don't know if my needle is going to survive this one, just because I was a little too late to put a greenhouse over it before it snowed in November and now the ground will freeze in there.

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And of course its still going to stick around 5 more days-

[WSimpson]

I have a Chamaerops humilis and cerifera ( the blue form ) that have been in the ground 10 years and they  get damage below 12F , but they  come back strong .   I think the key to their survival is my great microclimate on the south side of the house with wind protection from the house , and the eave of the house overhangs and  keeps them relatively dry . I also have them close to the house ( about 2.5' from the outside wall of the house ) . 

Will

[Leelanau Palms]

  On 1/18/2024 at 6:15 PM, Sabal King said:

Did a quick walkthrough today, and exactly as I posted yesterday.. the ones I knew would burn, burned, the rest... well I just did a video walkthrough, and am VERY pleasantly surprised... wow!  Hardening off my Sabals in ground now (many as strap leaf seedlings) appears to be paying off.

 

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Fascinating and informative video. Quite a collection. Will look forward to further updates, especially the uncoverings.

[Leelanau Palms]

  On 1/18/2024 at 7:01 PM, DTS1 said:

I really don't know if my needle is going to survive this one, just because I was a little too late to put a greenhouse over it before it snowed in November and now the ground will freeze in there.

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I'm hoping for the best for you,  D'Mario!

[UK_Palms]

Despite having no snowfall in England or London, the French got quite a lot, especially in Paris. Satellite images show it completely white on the other side of the English channel.

 

Date record low minimum for 18th January at Kew Gardens last night with a minimum of -7.4C / 18.7F.

Date record low minimum at Bushy Park in southwest London as well going down to -7.9C / 17.7F (these stations are very exposed in middle of open parks).

Date record low minimum at London City airport with a minimum of -4C / 25F (records only go back to 1991).

Also the coldest night at St Mary’s airport in the Isles of Scilly since March 1st 2018 during the infamous ‘Beast from the East event’. It went down to +1.5C / 35F there last night. That is very cold by their standards. I believe a date record for there as well.

 

Minimum of -5.3C / 22.5F for me here last night, which wasn’t as bad as I was expecting. Some nearby areas faired far more worse than I did. Daytime temps climbed back up to +3.9C / 39F but are already pegged back down to -1.4C / 29F at 8:30pm under clear skies. Another harsh radiation frost to come with clear skies all night.

Tonight is the last bad night for us. It doesn’t look anywhere near as bad tomorrow night and then it is all uphill from there.

 

I also forgot about all my Sabal seedlings (Bermundana, Domingensis, Mexicana, Minor etc) that were left outside in pots at the bottom of the garden. They would have endured a night of 19F and a night of 22F exposed out in their pots. They were all frozen solid when I brought them in this afternoon!  🙄

Edited January 18, 2024 by UK_Palms

[knikfar]

  On 1/17/2024 at 12:18 PM, BeyondTheGarden said:

The cold front finally pushed into the east coast lastnight; a NW wind blew the cloud cover off and temps bottomed out at 13 here this morning. 

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Oh no! You're supposed to be warmer than me. We bottomed at 18.8 in our yard here in Raleigh. Wacky, wacky weather. 

Edited January 18, 2024 by knikfar

[jwitt]

  On 1/18/2024 at 6:15 PM, Sabal King said:

Did a quick walkthrough today, and exactly as I posted yesterday.. the ones I knew would burn, burned, the rest... well I just did a video walkthrough, and am VERY pleasantly surprised... wow!  Hardening off my Sabals in ground now (many as strap leaf seedlings) appears to be paying off.

 

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My limited experience confirms your experience.  Strap leaf and even seeding in place have proven best in my yard and marginal climate.   

I can actually "prove" years of lost growth just by transplanting larger filifera as opposed to seeding in place.

Your data helps me. Thank you!

[BeyondTheGarden]

@knikfar When I was looking at weather patterns in Washington, it seemed to me that cold air flows like a river current or waterfall, falling from great height, and in some areas it fills the land entirely, and in other areas it only dilutes the warmer air to some degree, and it's impossible to say what paths it will take.  It doesn't make sense a lot of times.  

We were at 18F at 6 this morning. 

[Xenon]

I10/East Fwy and 610 in Houston looks great.  Mutt Washies didn't burn much if at all. A little bit more bronzing towards BW8 out west but generally just varying levels of cosmetic damage even to full on robusta. No burn on dates

 

 

A Livistona chinensis is barely burned while mine is defoliated, extra few degrees work miracles

[knikfar]

  On 1/18/2024 at 9:38 PM, BeyondTheGarden said:

@knikfar When I was looking at weather patterns in Washington, it seemed to me that cold air flows like a river current or waterfall, falling from great height, and in some areas it fills the land entirely, and in other areas it only dilutes the warmer air to some degree, and it's impossible to say what paths it will take.  It doesn't make sense a lot of times.  

We were at 18F at 6 this morning. 

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And I suppose there are so many other things that affect the temp that we aren't even aware of. Nothing that makes a significant difference but a degree or two here or there can be different enough depending on the plant. We had a low of 22.4f in our yard this morning. But in the long term, you'll always be able to more reliably grow palms than me. I'm living vicariously through you. Probably because you aren't that far but the distance makes enough of a difference. 

[Sabal King]

  On 1/18/2024 at 9:34 PM, jwitt said:

My limited experience confirms your experience.  Strap leaf and even seeding in place have proven best in my yard and marginal climate.   

I can actually "prove" years of lost growth just by transplanting larger filifera as opposed to seeding in place.

Your data helps me. Thank you!

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AWESOME!  Glad to help.. even if i lose a few tender Sabals along the way lol... I'm going to kill many in the pursuit of learning for us all.

[BigBilly]

Well I made a horrible discovery, my trashy  needle had a spear pulled after 10 F 

[BigBilly]

  On 1/18/2024 at 10:48 PM, BigBilly said:

Well I made a horrible discovery, my trashy  needle had a spear pulled after 10 F 

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My Sabal Minor is yet to spear pull

[Chester B]

No apparent signs of damage in my neighborhood on any of the palms (Washingtonia, CIDP, Sabals) or sagos.  The only thing that looked sad were some TI plants.