Surprising palm location - Colorado

[RFun]

3 hours ago, Southwesternsol said:

Yeah, although I wouldn't consider Trachycarpus in 7b to be much for zone pushing.

Well, I like to use longer time frames for my hardiness gauges.  The 100 year average for Grand Junction would be -3F, so that would be 6b.  Even if you used the last 20 years of data, it would still be -3F and 6b.  Factoring in the record low of -23F, I'd say that's pretty impressive.

Edited November 13, 2023 by RFun

[Southwesternsol]

3 minutes ago, RFun said:

Well, I like to use longer time frames for my hardiness gauges.  The 100 year average for Grand Junction would be -3F, so that would be 6b.  Even if you used the last 20 years of data, it would still be -3F and 6b.  Factoring in the record low of -23F, I'd say that's pretty impressive.

I mean, for general gardening yes I would go either native or stuff that is hardy enough that you never have to worry about it. That being said, Junction is most definetly not a 6b though. Like I said my best friend lives there, and I lived there for a while, and I keep tabs on the weather. 6b temps are possible, and even lower have been recorded, but they're fairly rare and becoming even rarer with climate change. I wouldn't really worry about the possibility that in five years there might be one chilly morning that dips below zero for a few hours.

[Silas_Sancona]

38 minutes ago, Southwesternsol said:

I mean, for general gardening yes I would go either native or stuff that is hardy enough that you never have to worry about it. That being said, Junction is most definetly not a 6b though. Like I said my best friend lives there, and I lived there for a while, and I keep tabs on the weather. 6b temps are possible, and even lower have been recorded, but they're fairly rare and becoming even rarer with climate change. I wouldn't really worry about the possibility that in five years there might be one chilly morning that dips below zero for a few hours.

Agree,  100%  Some people get wayy too hung up on the big ( ...and apparently scary ) " what if-s " that are fairly  un-likey to occur ..or,  if they do,  wouldn't be much of a big deal  -in 98% of occurrences.  It's one reason the area i grew up in in California is still so bland when it comes to a majority of plant options you see in many landscapes, even today.

That said, more forward - thinking people, who do their homework, let alone see the changes that are occurring, are escaping getting struck with severe cases of " what if " mind set- itis  and pursuing bolder ( ..and often more ideally adapted to said changing conditions ) options, let alone encouraging more people to do the same..

Someone i referenced in a different thread, who used to ..but no longer... posts here on PT, recently posted a shot of an 11ft tall Plumeria specimen blooming it's head off somewhere in my ( ..and apparently his ) old neighborhood back there ( Blossom Hill / Cambrian Park area of San Jose, CA. )  on a gardening forum he belongs to.

He noted that he'd known about it growing there since -at least- 2020.  There have been a couple cooler -and wetter- ( last year esp. ) winters since 2020.. ...The kind of " bad " winters many people afflicted with severe " What If -Itis " would assume would kill such a plant in that climate.

They aren't the prettiest, but i also found more Majesty Palms when doing some random web-surfing of some neighborhoods in a different part of town.. Then of course, there is the lone Royal Palm, ( that we're aware of  ) ..located in my old neighborhood out there, that has survived since me ..and many others... noted it's presence, ...back in the 2012-13 time frame..

Some Pink Trumpet Trees i planted at a house not far from that Royal, have also survived since i planted them ..also in 2012, ...despite the supposedly " expert " nursery owner warning me that they'd be killed by the first hard frost / freeze they see when i ordered them ( they''ll actually survive temp exposure down into -at least- the lower 20s, possibly the upper teens ).. Could be bigger, but, aren't regularly watered ( Planted in a hell strip between a sidewalk and a street curb ).. but, are alive and getting larger each year i check on them on google.  So much for that " expert " advise, right?  lol

When people started to plant more natives / near- natives out there, there was also push back form some of the old time nursery folks who said stuff like ." .Those plants won't survive in a " cultivated " landscape setting "..  Couldn't have been proven more wrong ( again ) over the past several decades.


Sure someone might be thinking a little too enthusiastically when in pursuit of growing something like a Queen in zone 6 or 7,  but a Trachy growing -and thriving, ...w/ out much ..or any.. winter protection- in say zone 7 ..or maybe even 6B  isn't much of a push when they're already pretty tough palms to begin with.

"What if- itis " be tossed in the trash can,  and sent to the compost pile..

[ChicagoPalma]

4 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Agree,  100%  Some people get wayy too hung up on the big ( ...and apparently scary ) " what if-s " that are fairly  un-likey to occur ..or,  if they do,  wouldn't be much of a big deal  -in 98% of occurrences.  It's one reason the area i grew up in in California is still so bland when it comes to a majority of plant options you see in many landscapes, even today.

That said, more forward - thinking people, who do their homework, let alone see the changes that are occurring, are escaping getting struck with severe cases of " what if " mind set- itis  and pursuing bolder ( ..and often more ideally adapted to said changing conditions ) options, let alone encouraging more people to do the same..

Someone i referenced in a different thread, who used to ..but no longer... posts here on PT, recently posted a shot of an 11ft tall Plumeria specimen blooming it's head off somewhere in my ( ..and apparently his ) old neighborhood back there ( Blossom Hill / Cambrian Park area of San Jose, CA. )  on a gardening forum he belongs to.

He noted that he'd known about it growing there since -at least- 2020.  There have been a couple cooler -and wetter- ( last year esp. ) winters since 2020.. ...The kind of " bad " winters many people afflicted with severe " What If -Itis " would assume would kill such a plant in that climate.

They aren't the prettiest, but i also found more Majesty Palms when doing some random web-surfing of some neighborhoods in a different part of town.. Then of course, there is the lone Royal Palm, ( that we're aware of  ) ..located in my old neighborhood out there, that has survived since me ..and many others... noted it's presence, ...back in the 2012-13 time frame..

Some Pink Trumpet Trees i planted at a house not far from that Royal, have also survived since i planted them ..also in 2012, ...despite the supposedly " expert " nursery owner warning me that they'd be killed by the first hard frost / freeze they see when i ordered them ( they''ll actually survive temp exposure down into -at least- the lower 20s, possibly the upper teens ).. Could be bigger, but, aren't regularly watered ( Planted in a hell strip between a sidewalk and a street curb ).. but, are alive and getting larger each year i check on them on google.  So much for that " expert " advise, right?  lol

When people started to plant more natives / near- natives out there, there was also push back form some of the old time nursery folks who said stuff like ." .Those plants won't survive in a " cultivated " landscape setting "..  Couldn't have been proven more wrong ( again ) over the past several decades.


Sure someone might be thinking a little too enthusiastically when in pursuit of growing something like a Queen in zone 6 or 7,  but a Trachy growing -and thriving, ...w/ out much ..or any.. winter protection- in say zone 7 ..or maybe even 6B  isn't much of a push when they're already pretty tough palms to begin with.

"What if- itis " be tossed in the trash can,  and sent to the compost pile..

Exactly my point. A trachy surviving like -3f as an average in a zone 6 or 5 area for a short period of time, like in denver of grand juction area of colorado is nothing more than a joke to trachys.  They literally originate from a place that is probably colder than Denver and grand junction. Grand junction (7a-6b) Denver(6a-5b), i checked the arbor day maps. Denver and Grand Junction, while rated to these cold zones, is really far from that, the snow and cold temperatures don't last very long, and it will rarely go below 0 sometimes. Heck, even some filifera, and maybe butias and palmettos might be able to survive here in a more protected area.

Edited November 14, 2023 by ChicagoPalma

[Jimhardy]

Heres what a trekking guide(India) wrote to me in 2010 about the climate where Trachycarpus Takil grows.

 

Greetings & thank you very much for your email.

As i took Alexander Nijman to see Takil in Munsayri Kalamuni Area.
which is surrounded by dense forest and it is only grow in this place
in Uttarakhand. Weather in winter is not so bad here there is only 4-5
ft snow fall in this place at an altitute 2700mt. about temperature

falls around -5to -10 at night day time almost 10 degree centigrade. 

 

So....4'-5' of snow    8100' to 8400'  winter range of 14F to 50F which lines

up nicely with the leaf hardiness of Trachys

[Silas_Sancona]

10 minutes ago, Jimhardy said:

Heres what a trekking guide(India) wrote to me in 2010 about the climate where Trachycarpus Takil grows.

 

Greetings & thank you very much for your email.

As i took Alexander Nijman to see Takil in Munsayri Kalamuni Area.
which is surrounded by dense forest and it is only grow in this place
in Uttarakhand. Weather in winter is not so bad here there is only 4-5
ft snow fall in this place at an altitute 2700mt. about temperature

falls around -5to -10 at night day time almost 10 degree centigrade. 

 

So....4'-5' of snow    8100' to 8400'  winter range of 14F to 50F which lines

up nicely with the leaf hardiness of Trachys

 

25 minutes ago, ChicagoPalma said:

Exactly my point. A trachy surviving like -3f as an average in a zone 7 or 6b area for a short period of time, like in denver of grand juction area of colorado is nothing more than a joke to trachys.  They literally originate from a place that is probably colder than Denver and grand junction. Grand junction (7a-6b) Denver(6a-5b), i checked the arbor day maps.

Agree w/ what Jim says regarding the preferred / ideal " comfortable " range for Trachys.. Every living thing has a preferred,  " tolerates this much of  this or that "  range.. That said, As with almost anything else, there can be individuals that may extend the range of X factor they might tolerate just a hair more.. That's basically how evolution works..

IMOO, agree that Grand Junction would look to be within the lower end of the " not awful, but not perfect " range of potential ..essentially able to handle most winters there, esp. once more mature, and if properly sited in a landscape ( maybe mimicing growing them beneath taller evergreens? which might offer some extra protection against any extremes -if or when they might occur )

Ideal areas near / within Denver might be right on the edge of surviving at all  ..but that doesn't mean that one surviving there is impossible. Given the obvious changing temperature trends longer term,  in my eyes,  potential of long term survivability there probably leans more increasing, rather than decreasing..  Time will tell of course.  If it were the only palm option i could grow that stood a chance ..even if long term success were at the lowest end of the lower end of possibility, i'd try it.. ..Fully understanding  and accepting  that it could get knocked out at such a marginal end of what it can endure.

Heck, there are Sabal ( minor? ) surviving in Kansas City ..Possibly Lawrence KS, ...where i lived ..and could never imagine -any-  palm being hardy enough to survive winters there..

Would be pretty wild visiting the area again and seeing one growing in a yard ..say near K.U.  waving at me as i walk or drive past ...the same yard being one i probably passed countless times when i lived there. 

The fact that there are members here growing Sabals in / near Wichita is a little mind blowing to me since i've passed through there numerous times.  Better climate that K.C. or Lawrence perhaps, but still seems worlds away from any sort of " palmy paradise. ".

-My thoughts only of course.

[RFun]

7 hours ago, Southwesternsol said:

I mean, for general gardening yes I would go either native or stuff that is hardy enough that you never have to worry about it. That being said, Junction is most definetly not a 6b though. Like I said my best friend lives there, and I lived there for a while, and I keep tabs on the weather. 6b temps are possible, and even lower have been recorded, but they're fairly rare and becoming even rarer with climate change. I wouldn't really worry about the possibility that in five years there might be one chilly morning that dips below zero for a few hours.

You can go against weather.gov data if you want, I'm just giving you the data and it's a -3F average for those time frames I gave.  I'm not saying a Trachy surviving in a 6b wouldn't be possible or anything, but saying that that is quite impressive as compared to what most other people would do in a zone 6b.  So, that's really all I'm saying.  No need to get defensive or anything.  Believe me, if anyone knows that palms are hardier than most think, I'm probably the first on that list.

Edited November 14, 2023 by RFun

[RFun]

2 hours ago, ChicagoPalma said:

Exactly my point. A trachy surviving like -3f as an average in a zone 6 or 5 area for a short period of time, like in denver of grand juction area of colorado is nothing more than a joke to trachys.  They literally originate from a place that is probably colder than Denver and grand junction. Grand junction (7a-6b) Denver(6a-5b), i checked the arbor day maps. Denver and Grand Junction, while rated to these cold zones, is really far from that, the snow and cold temperatures don't last very long, and it will rarely go below 0 sometimes. Heck, even some filifera, and maybe butias and palmettos might be able to survive here in a more protected area.

I'm not trying to insinuate a Trachy can't survive a 6b.  Just saying that is quite impressive in comparison to what most people would do in a 6b.  If anyone knows palms are hardier than most people think, it's me.