Washingtonia Filibusta petiole/boots color

[MarcusH]

I've planted two Filibustas this year. They show a lot of Filifera characteristics but I've noticed on some of the older fronds that the base petiole ( boots ) turned purple the last few days . Is this typical on old fronds that are about to die ? 

[Chester B]

That is a sign of the robusta genes.  Generally a good indicator you're dealing with a hybrid, even though it may have been sold as a "filifera"

[MarcusH]

20 minutes ago, Chester B said:

That is a sign of the robusta genes.  Generally a good indicator you're dealing with a hybrid, even though it may have been sold as a "filifera"

It's just weird that it recently showed the purple on some of the older petiole.  They've been in the ground since October '22 and February '23 and no purple color on petioles until a few days ago. Want to point out just on older fronds.  Everything else is pretty much Filifera like. 

[Chester B]

I had the same thing happen, when I bought a palm labelled as "Filifera" and it had solid green petioles.  They remained green that first summer and by next some of the purple/red started to show up.  Other than that, it looked like a pure filifera, with the dull green leaves and lots of fiber.

[MarcusH]

14 minutes ago, Chester B said:

I had the same thing happen, when I bought a palm labelled as "Filifera" and it had solid green petioles.  They remained green that first summer and by next some of the purple/red started to show up.  Other than that, it looked like a pure filifera, with the dull green leaves and lots of fiber.

Just like mine.  Well I know those are Filibusta and definitely more cold hardier than the Robusta that I have in front of the house.  You never know what you get at the store but I started collecting TX Filifera seeds from the Riverwalk , some of them are already germinating . At least I know what I'm getting now. 

[Dwarf Fan]

38 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

Just like mine.  Well I know those are Filibusta and definitely more cold hardier than the Robusta that I have in front of the house.  You never know what you get at the store but I started collecting TX Filifera seeds from the Riverwalk , some of them are already germinating . At least I know what I'm getting now. 

^^^ Safer bet than buying from the vast majority of places that carry Washingtonias unless you are at a specialty Nursery.

[jwitt]

Recently fertilized?

[SeanK]

I propose that unless the seed is sourced at Moapa, it's a hybrid.

[MarcusH]

9 hours ago, jwitt said:

Recently fertilized?

 

9 hours ago, jwitt said:

Recently fertilized?

Yes about 3 weeks ago . Used a slow release fertilizer.  

[jwitt]

8 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

 

Yes about 3 weeks ago . Used a slow release fertilizer.  

I have seen the coloring appear on washies where none existed after using fertilizer. Also the same with seedlings, even on "suspected"" pure(T or C).  

I personally believe it to be the ph change of the soil. 

Just my hunch.

I have demonstrated this and documented it in my own yard.  

I have also documented the coloring on palms in the "pure" groves.

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by jwitt

[Axel Amsterdam]

5 hours ago, jwitt said:

 

I have also documented the coloring on palms in the "pure" groves.

 

That’s interesting Jim, can you maybe post a link to this? I think identifying a real filifera is indeed not limited to the green petiole test, although i believe the older ones always have green (and nearly toothless) petioles. 

[jwitt]

5 hours ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

That’s interesting Jim, can you maybe post a link to this? I think identifying a real filifera is indeed not limited to the green petiole test, although i believe the older ones always have green (and nearly toothless) petioles. 

3 different native groves in California

Edited October 20, 2023 by jwitt

[jwitt]

On 10/18/2023 at 5:18 PM, MarcusH said:

It's just weird that it recently showed the purple on some of the older petiole.  They've been in the ground since October '22 and February '23 and no purple color on petioles until a few days ago. Want to point out just on older fronds.  Everything else is pretty much Filifera like. 

Fish emulsion can bring out color where none existed before in days.  At least in my yard.  On my washies.  Seedlings and 12' high palms. Same effect. 

Believe it or not!

Here is potting soil vs my native alkaline soul. Same seed from ABQ sourced palm(hybrid). See the coloring and no coloring. 

Considering how long filifera have been in cultivation(150 years?), maybe there is more to learn......

Potting soil

Native soil

Edited October 20, 2023 by jwitt

[MarcusH]

Very interesting !!! So soil ph plays a role in it I haven't thought about that . When it comes to those details ph level etc I'm absolutely rookie level.  Down the road it takes quite a few years to see how pure my so called Filifera are.  In this day and age especially here in Texas it seems to be that none either Robusta or Filifera are completely pure . 

[jwitt]

@MarcusH 

On seedlings, I even see difference in growth in different soils.  You can kind of see it in my seedling pictures. 

I kind of internalize it like trying to grow hydrangeas or gardenia here. Not gonna happen due to our water and soil. Even our tap water on a potted gardenia will cause it drop blossoms and somewhat burn leaf edges. 

Most fertilizers are "ph balanced" or slightly acidic.  Either one will turn my soil more towards the acidic scale.  At least less alkaline. 

There is evidence of filifera seedlings growing in soil with a pH of 9.2. That is hugely alkaline.  I won't go into reasons, but strongly believe ph affects thickness on this species.  My hunch. 

I believe SA leans alkaline(I may be mistaken).  Besides SA's climate, maybe this is also what plays into them doing so well there. 

There are pure ones there.  This species was not "discovered" until the 1870's I believe. 

I surmise maybe there are pure ones that take on a bit different characteristics in different soils.  There are differences in the Kofa vs California filifera, yet, genetically they are the same. 

I've seen it with my own eyes, on a small island in the middle of the Pacific, where different soils are interspersed. 

At the end of the day,  filifera are really a newer plant in landscapes. 

And yes, there is much, much interbreeding.  

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by jwitt

[MarcusH]

8 minutes ago, jwitt said:

@MarcusH 

On seedlings, I even see difference in growth in different soils.  You can kind of see it in my seedling pictures. 

I kind of internalize it like trying to grow hydrangeas or gardenia here. Not gonna happen due to our water and soil. Even our tap water on a potted gardenia will cause it drop blossoms and somewhat burn leaf edges. 

Most fertilizers are "ph balanced" or slightly acidic.  Either one will turn my soil more towards the acidic scale.  At least less alkaline. 

There is evidence of filifera seedlings growing in soil with a pH of 9.2. That is hugely alkaline.  I won't go into reasons, but strongly believe ph affects thickness on this species.  My hunch. 

I believe SA leans alkaline(I may be mistaken).  Besides SA's climate, maybe this is also what plays into them doing so well there. 

 

 

Very informative Jim thank you for coming up with so many details.  I know this guy who lived some time in California and we were talking about Filiferas growing in Texas.  He said the ones in California have a thicker trunk than the ones here in Texas. So I assume we have our own Filiferas here in TX.  I don't know why but there has to be a reason for it. 

[Las Palmas Norte]

Here are two examples from the same seed batch, grown under identical conditions, exhibiting different degrees of coloration. The one on the left has about 50% less.

 

[jwitt]

5 hours ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

Here are two examples from the same seed batch, grown under identical conditions, exhibiting different degrees of coloration. The one on the left has about 50% less.

 

Stout!

[Las Palmas Norte]

43 minutes ago, jwitt said:

Stout!

Yah, these are the Fayetteville NC Washingtonia I started from seed last year.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Las Palmas Norte

[Dwarf Fan]

7 hours ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

Here are two examples from the same seed batch, grown under identical conditions, exhibiting different degrees of coloration. The one on the left has about 50% less.

 

 

If you have eliminated all the other environmental variables, than the color differences among identical progeny would presumably be attributed to genetic variations.