A few questions on the box method for winter protection

[PashkaTLT]

Hello guys,

I've watched a few videos on the box method, but I still have a few questions.

1) Most people use Christmas Lights, but I think they are ineffective for heating (or am I wrong?). Maybe there are other, more effective options that will spend all energy on heating and not light?

2) Some people make clear top or clear sides for sunlight to get in. Others do not get sunlight inside at all. The easier method is of course to just use the same rigid foam and not spend additional time & money on making "windows". But I'm worried that if I get a bad winter and I will have to keep the palms boxed for several months, will they survive without a window? I guess Christmas Lights could give some light, but is it enough? And what If I decide to heat with something else, and not with Christmas lights?

3) Do I understand correctly that I don't need to make any holes for air exchange, cuz it will drastically reduce the warmth inside?

4) I think everyone uses zip ties or something else to hold the fronds together. Is this really necessary since the fronds will still be constrained with box walls? Does it help keep the palm warmer?

5) How do you make sure the box is stable? How do you connect it to the ground?

Thank you!

[Allen]

1 hour ago, PashkaTLT said:

Hello guys,

I've watched a few videos on the box method, but I still have a few questions.

1) Most people use Christmas Lights, but I think they are ineffective for heating (or am I wrong?). Maybe there are other, more effective options that will spend all energy on heating and not light?

2) Some people make clear top or clear sides for sunlight to get in. Others do not get sunlight inside at all. The easier method is of course to just use the same rigid foam and not spend additional time & money on making "windows". But I'm worried that if I get a bad winter and I will have to keep the palms boxed for several months, will they survive without a window? I guess Christmas Lights could give some light, but is it enough? And what If I decide to heat with something else, and not with Christmas lights?

3) Do I understand correctly that I don't need to make any holes for air exchange, cuz it will drastically reduce the warmth inside?

4) I think everyone uses zip ties or something else to hold the fronds together. Is this really necessary since the fronds will still be constrained with box walls? Does it help keep the palm warmer?

5) How do you make sure the box is stable? How do you connect it to the ground?

Thank you!

1) Most people use Christmas Lights, but I think they are ineffective for heating (or am I wrong?). Maybe there are other, more effective options that will spend all energy on heating and not light?  You can use loose hanging (Not touching palm) C7 or C9 lights inside with a 35/45 thermocube and a temp monitor is ideal.

2) Some people make clear top or clear sides for sunlight to get in. Others do not get sunlight inside at all. The easier method is of course to just use the same rigid foam and not spend additional time & money on making "windows". But I'm worried that if I get a bad winter and I will have to keep the palms boxed for several months, will they survive without a window? I guess Christmas Lights could give some light, but is it enough? And what If I decide to heat with something else, and not with Christmas lights?

No sun is fine for the palms if you keep the temps cool.  If you heat with something else you can.  Some people use a small heater or heating tape but I rec the lights.  

3) Do I understand correctly that I don't need to make any holes for air exchange, cuz it will drastically reduce the warmth inside?

Some people build a secondary inside top to keep condensation from dripping and open box to check on palm as needed

4) I think everyone uses zip ties or something else to hold the fronds together. Is this really necessary since the fronds will still be constrained with box walls? Does it help keep the palm warmer?

Tying the fronds together lets you build a smaller box.  

5) How do you make sure the box is stable? How do you connect it to the ground?

It can have stakes going into the ground or secure adjustable tent ties to the top/mid to stabilize.  I use this particular style on my wire cage setup 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08F7G5Z41/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1

 

 

[PashkaTLT]

Thanks @Allen, very helpfuL!
Just to make sure... Will a palm be ok without sunlight and without christmas lights for 5 months? We will have freezing temperatures in 3 weeks already  and we may have them in March

>Some people build a secondary inside top to keep condensation from dripping and open box to check on palm as needed

You mean double top with air between the layers for better insulation?

>Tying the fronds together lets you build a smaller box.  

So it's just for a smaller box, it doesn't help keep the palm warmer when the fronds are very close together?

[Allen]

1 hour ago, PashkaTLT said:

Thanks @Allen, very helpfuL!
Just to make sure... Will a palm be ok without sunlight and without christmas lights for 5 months? We will have freezing temperatures in 3 weeks already  and we may have them in March

>Some people build a secondary inside top to keep condensation from dripping and open box to check on palm as needed

You mean double top with air between the layers for better insulation?

>Tying the fronds together lets you build a smaller box.  

So it's just for a smaller box, it doesn't help keep the palm warmer when the fronds are very close together?

You mean double top with air between the layers for better insulation?

No to keep condensation from being a problem

Take a look at these.  You can add sunlight to the box but I don't think it is necessary if you keep the palm cool instead of having it go hot/cold/hot/cold

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21uvp_QznhQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snEl8oAOD10

So it's just for a smaller box, it doesn't help keep the palm warmer when the fronds are very close together?

In a insulated box tying fronds won't make the palm warmer. But a smaller box is easier to build and manage.

Just to make sure... Will a palm be ok without sunlight and without christmas lights for 5 months? We will have freezing temperatures in 3 weeks already  and we may have them in March

Yes palms can go 5 months without sunlight or any light if kept dry and cool.

[PashkaTLT]

12 minutes ago, Allen said:

You mean double top with air between the layers for better insulation?

No to keep condensation from being a problem

Take a look at these.  You can add sunlight to the box but I don't think it is necessary if you keep the palm cool instead of having it go hot/cold/hot/cold

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21uvp_QznhQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snEl8oAOD10

Got it, thank you. If anyone is interested, this is a timestamped link:

 

[Las Palmas Norte]

Palm Protection Master Thread

[Alex Zone 5]

Hi there....

My Trachycarpus is mommy wrapped and my needle and minor are boxed in my Styrofoam boards.

I do use Xmas lights (c9) and yes they do get hot. You need to keep them away from foliage. Some do use heating cables. 

You do need a thermocube to keep things tempered. I do leave a small gap on top for ventilation. 

I do tie up the fronds and use some bungee cords.

[PashkaTLT]

I assume box protection is better than simple wrapping? If I want to reduce the risks, I should go with boxes?

[ChicagoPalma]

Yes do box, we pretty much have the same zone.

[PashkaTLT]

I will have 7 boxes close to each other. I wonder if I should use a single thermocube and just chain all the heat cables & christmas lights from it, or if I should put a separate thermocube into each box? I'm thinking separate thermocubes might be a safer option?

Also, Allen recommended 35F On 45F Off thermocube, but isn't 45F a little too high? I'm afraid it will be on for many months this way and I'll get a huge electricity bill.

Edited October 15, 2023 by PashkaTLT

[PashkaTLT]

And 1 more question:

I found 18ft heating cable for a great price of $12, real deal. So I'm thinking I could just use it to protect both ground (burried in mulch) and trunk and avoid buying Christmas Lights, since 18ft = 126W should be enough. THe question is, do Christmas lights help with light? Since there will be dark, is it ok to go whole winter without sunlight & light from Christmas lights?

[Swolte]

1 hour ago, PashkaTLT said:

is it ok to go whole winter without sunlight & light from Christmas lights?

Yes, what Allan says is correct. I have had palms wrapped for 3 months without problem. The palms will be dormant (the only problem is if there's moisture coming inside that can't escape - fungus heaven!). 

[PashkaTLT]

Guys, one more question.

How do boxed palms get water?

In my zone, night temperatures <= 35F can occur for 5 months, November to March. All this time the boxes will prevent rain getting directly to the main root clump. They will be some water getting to roots outside the box, but is that enough? I just planted my palms in August, so their roots probably won't be developed by this winter.

Edited October 16, 2023 by PashkaTLT

[Palmlex]

If you keep your palms at only slightly above freezing for most of the winter, they will need very little water. It's more likely you'll have fungal issues due to too much water/humidity than due to too little water.

However, if you keep them too toasty, watered or not, some fronds might get burned by the dry heat of the lights.

[Las Palmas Norte]

13 hours ago, PashkaTLT said:

How do boxed palms get water?

Surely you can open the enclosure from time to time as weather permits, for fresh air circulation. Not much watering is needed during this period and ground moisture does travel laterally to some degree.

[PashkaTLT]

Guys, so I ordered these heat cables (got them for $11 only!):

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B097D68LBQ?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1

But here what James Palms told me on his YT channel:

"Those heat cables produce heat differently than the Christmas lights. I would not recommend using them. The Christmas lights are perfect. They put off lots of heat without too much. They are cool to the touch but they produce lots of nice warmth."

What do you think? Is it really a bad idea to use heat cables without Christmas lights?

[Las Palmas Norte]

On 10/17/2023 at 10:43 AM, PashkaTLT said:

Guys, so I ordered these heat cables (got them for $11 only!):

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B097D68LBQ?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1

But here what James Palms told me on his YT channel:

"Those heat cables produce heat differently than the Christmas lights. I would not recommend using them. The Christmas lights are perfect. They put off lots of heat without too much. They are cool to the touch but they produce lots of nice warmth."

What do you think? Is it really a bad idea to use heat cables without Christmas lights?

The product description claims to activate at 37°F and shut of at 50°F. If it where me, I'd be somewhat reluctant to have the heat cable in direct contact with the palm, especially the most tender emerging fronds.

[PashkaTLT]

3 hours ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

The product description claims to activate at 37°F and shut of at 50°F. If it where me, I'd be somewhat reluctant to have the heat cable in direct contact with the palm, especially the most tender emerging fronds.

I think that even with Christmas lights, people don't wrap fronds? I was planning to just put the cable into mulch + around the trunk. Sounds fine?

[happypalms]

On 10/8/2023 at 11:42 PM, Alex Zone 5 said:

Hi there....

My Trachycarpus is mommy wrapped and my needle and minor are boxed in my Styrofoam boards.

I do use Xmas lights (c9) and yes they do get hot. You need to keep them away from foliage. Some do use heating cables. 

You do need a thermocube to keep things tempered. I do leave a small gap on top for ventilation. 

I do tie up the fronds and use some bungee cords.

That is true dedication to growing a palm in your environment incredible determination your a true gardener 🌱

[Jimhardy]

Those heat cables only work if they are in contact with the surface(but palm trunks don't conduct heat like metal) or if

they are enclosed in a way that the heat can't escape, meaning there needs to be

very little space between the palm and the protection so you not trying to warm

a "large" volume of air...the temp range is good though.

[SeanK]

Buy a 40W or 60W bulb and leave a lamp in there.

[PashkaTLT]

First 4 boxes done!

Guys, I wonder if it's worth to spend time opening and closing the front panels. I.e. the temperature may be 50F degrees 5-6 days a week and 30-35F degrees 1 day a week. I wonder if it's worth closing the boxes on the coldest day and then removing the front panel until the next freezing and until a real stable winter...

[ChicagoPalma]

Pretty much, I would just have the box closed for the whole winter, no need to air it out if you keep the moisture out.

[Las Palmas Norte]

3 hours ago, ChicagoPalma said:

Pretty much, I would just have the box closed for the whole winter, no need to air it out if you keep the moisture out.

A recirculation of fresh air from time to time is important as there is always a measurable amount of moisture/humidity. Subfreezing temperatures don't exist unremittingly even in Chicago.

[ChicagoPalma]

Yes subfreezing temperatures and below freezing like to harbor here in chicago for very long, but generally there will be some days with 50s and 60s and rarely 70s in december or january or february so I can open up the box to let some air out. But probably no need to open the box since canadians generally don't most of the time.

[Las Palmas Norte]

3 hours ago, ChicagoPalma said:

But probably no need to open the box since canadians generally don't most of the time.

I'm a "Canadian" (Pacific coast) and the only palm I'm protecting with an enclosure is Ravenea rivularis. It's well out of our zone 8 climate so it's necessary for it's survival. This is totally experimental for me having never used an enclosure before. I did a trial run last night with temps dropping to 32°F and rebounding to 56°F daytime. It must be working since I didn't see a temp below 66°F in there. It's really well insulated.