Complete list of “Bullet Proof” Palms?

[jwitt]

6 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

iNat data: https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/123353-Jubaea-chilensis

"Besides, spatial modeling revealed that the natural regeneration of J. chilensis is significantly related to sites with greater vegetation cover, and especially to sites with greater solar radiation"

https://www.scielo.cl/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0717-66432016000100007&lng=es&nrm=iso&tlng=es

[FMG]

 

8 hours ago, MarcusH said:

Yes they are and a big eye catcher as well.  He's got a huge selection of Mules every time I go there makes me feel like walking into a jungle. 

My good sized mule saw 11 degrees as well as 22 with major ice last winter in DFW. It was definitely tipped but came back strong. 5-6 new fronds and 3x flowers so far this year.

[Silas_Sancona]

6 minutes ago, jwitt said:

"Besides, spatial modeling revealed that the natural regeneration of J. chilensis is significantly related to sites with greater vegetation cover, and especially to sites with greater solar radiation"

https://www.scielo.cl/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0717-66432016000100007&lng=es&nrm=iso&tlng=es

Will be interesting to see how this idea plays out after the fires and heatwaves there this year.

[jwitt]

1 hour ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Will be interesting to see how this idea plays out after the fires and heatwaves there this year.

Seem to handle the southern Cal heat waves(Texas too) and fires. 

Some even say AZ sun.

We know they handle the more intense El Paso sun.  

I lean more heat issue, not sun. 

 

[Silas_Sancona]

36 minutes ago, jwitt said:

Seem to handle the southern Cal heat waves(Texas too) and fires. 

Some even say AZ sun.

We know they handle the more intense El Paso sun.  

I lean more heat issue, not sun. 

 

 ..Time will tell..  Compared to heat here,  S. Cal heatwaves aren't much of an issue near the coast   ..They don't see lows over 90F ( at Day 29 ..or 30 of 90 / 90+ lows so far this year today ) or 47 ( and counting ) days at or over 110F ...stretches of similar or longer duration which are only going to become more common.  Not a good place for plants from cooler areas, no matter how similar they seem to be on the surface.         

..Queens fry here, while they grow close to perfect in S. Cal / CA in general  Lots of perfect specimens where i grew up in San Jose. I'll sell anyone swampland in Casa Grande if they can find me 10 perfect specimens, in full sun, here.   Some things just shouldn't be grown in a hot, subtropical ..sliding into more tropical.. Desert. .

[ZPalms]

This list should include the palm may survive but will never thrive on some of these without additional work, phoenix dactylifera or phoenix theophrastii is possible here but will never thrive without intervention. I cannot identify the palm but I know it's a phoenix I have posted it on here before but the last december cold blast really defoliated it but it did come back but definitely not quick enough

[jwitt]

7 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

 ..Time will tell..  Compared to heat here,  S. Cal heatwaves aren't much of an issue near the coast   ..They don't see lows over 90F ( at Day 29 ..or 30 of 90 / 90+ lows so far this year today ) or 47 ( and counting ) days at or over 110F ...stretches of similar or longer duration which are only going to become more common.  Not a good place for plants from cooler areas, no matter how similar they seem to be on the surface.         

..Queens fry here, while they grow close to perfect in S. Cal / CA in general  Lots of perfect specimens where i grew up in San Jose. I'll sell anyone swampland in Casa Grande if they can find me 10 perfect specimens, in full sun, here.   Some things just shouldn't be grown in a hot, subtropical ..sliding into more tropical.. Desert. .

Queens looked mostly ratty when I lived in PHX forty years ago.  Even had mid 90f lows then. Just not months of them! That is rough!

I sometimes forget the valley of the sun is it's own animal.  It's scale starts at an already extreme end of the heat spectrum. 

Probably uncharted territory for many plants this summer in the PHX area.

 

[Tom in Tucson]

12 hours ago, jwitt said:

Maybe I read the wrong stuff. I thought they grew on the continent side of the coastal range favoring highly solarized(NE) slopes. 

Guess they would hate it more here than PHX then(intense sunlight). Thanks! 

Wonder how the full sun one in El Paso is able to survive.  Got to be some intense sunlight at 4000'. 

AFAIK the largest (with several images online) perished a few years ago.

Even though the sun can be hot in El Paso (been there in July & Aug.) it doesn't come close to the low desert regions of the Sonoran desert.

Jubaea has a range (fairly small) only along the coastal slope, mostly near seasonal stream beds.

Hi 108˚, Lo 83˚ Aug 26

[MarcusH]

13 hours ago, FMG said:

 

My good sized mule saw 11 degrees as well as 22 with major ice last winter in DFW. It was definitely tipped but came back strong. 5-6 new fronds and 3x flowers so far this year.

Great fast recovery from what I see. Beautiful palm tree.  Good to know that it could handle your cold temperatures.  Did you protect it ? 

[jwitt]

"Even though the sun can be hot in El Paso (been there in July & Aug.) it doesn't come close to the low desert regions of the Sonoran desert."

Measuring using actual instruments thereby measuring actual energy,  say otherwise. Light energy also. Are you guessing,  just got a hunch. Or maybe just think it to be so?

Every day..

 

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, jwitt said:

Queens looked mostly ratty when I lived in PHX forty years ago.  Even had mid 90f lows then. Just not months of them! That is rough!

I sometimes forget the valley of the sun is it's own animal.  It's scale starts at an already extreme end of the heat spectrum. 

Probably uncharted territory for many plants this summer in the PHX area.

 

No worries... As i mentioned, we're just going  to see how they perform -over the long haul-  before a 100% certain conclusion can be nailed down..   If one -or a few make it, that's definitely a good thing  and i think there are a few ideal spots ( larger parks like Kiwanis, The park along the Indian Bend Wash, up near downtown Scottsdale,  etc for instance ) where they'd stand a decent chance.. ..For how long would be the bigger question. 

That said, overall, i certainly won't recommend it as an option, sticking closer to those that clearly show they can " take the heat " w/ out much extra care to keep them lookin good.   That's just me though..

You might have seen this elsewhere but, here's what Phoenix ( at Sky Harbor ) looked like last month..  That said, Lows weren't quite as nasty here in Chandler.. More upper 80s vs. nothin but 90s  ..or other areas further away from downtown but, i had a couple days at 120F on the " neighborhood WX stations closest to me, while Sky Harbor did not reach 120. ..and a ton of damage to stuff int he neighborhood.

Without a doubt, the lack of rain ain't helping things at all, lol...



If you hadn't seen it, Here's a thread i put together on some of the heat-related damage that occurred, just in the 'hood.. From what i have seen and heard about from others, it was / is still pretty ugly in numerous other parts of town too..  If it has been hot enough to completely torch Junipers, what could that do to a plant that evolved in an area where heat is less  intense? even if it can tolerate a ton of Sun?  ..And, what are the implications on -everything- going forward?   111F today, 112-115 Mon-Wed.. before cooling off again to the more normal 100-105 range later next week..
 

 

[Tom in Tucson]

17 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

No worries... As i mentioned, we're just going  to see how they perform -over the long haul-  before a 100% certain conclusion can be nailed down..   If one -or a few make it, that's definitely a good thing  and i think there are a few ideal spots ( larger parks like Kiwanis, The park along the Indian Bend Wash, up near downtown Scottsdale,  etc for instance ) where they'd stand a decent chance.. ..For how long would be the bigger question. 

That said, overall, i certainly won't recommend it as an option, sticking closer to those that clearly show they can " take the heat " w/ out much extra care to keep them lookin good.   That's just me though..

You might have seen this elsewhere but, here's what Phoenix ( at Sky Harbor ) looked like last month..  That said, Lows weren't quite as nasty here in Chandler.. More upper 80s vs. nothin but 90s  ..or other areas further away from downtown but, i had a couple days at 120F on the " neighborhood WX stations closest to me, while Sky Harbor did not reach 120. ..and a ton of damage to stuff int he neighborhood.

Without a doubt, the lack of rain ain't helping things at all, lol...



If you hadn't seen it, Here's a thread i put together on some of the heat-related damage that occurred, just in the 'hood.. From what i have seen and heard about from others, it was / is still pretty ugly in numerous other parts of town too..  If it has been hot enough to completely torch Junipers, what could that do to a plant that evolved in an area where heat is less  intense? even if it can tolerate a ton of Sun?  ..And, what are the implications on -everything- going forward?   111F today, 112-115 Mon-Wed.. before cooling off again to the more normal 100-105 range later next week..
 

 

I hope the readers of PalmTalk will excuse this OT remark, but I'm at a loss to explain why the last 3 PM's I've sent to @Silas_Sanconahave evaporated into "thin air". I have 2 theories: 1) The new updates to the forum, or 2) there is some form of censorship at play.

Hopefully this will be of some help to other members who sent any PM recently.

Hi 108˚, Lo 83˚ Aug 26

Edited August 27, 2023 by Tom in Tucson

[Silas_Sancona]

43 minutes ago, Tom in Tucson said:

I hope the readers of PalmTalk will excuse this OT remark, but I'm at a loss to explain why the last 3 PM's I've sent to @Silas_Sanconahave evaporated into "thin air". I have 2 theories: 1) The new updates to the forum, or 2) there is some form of censorship at play.

Hopefully this will be of some help to other members who sent any PM recently.

Hi 108˚, Lo 83˚ Aug 26

As you saw, ..PMs are good .. just hadn't gotten to replying yet..  If you asked someone who knows me best, .. they'd explain it best to anyone curious  " .. He has my own schedule, ...for pretty much anything.. " lol

Anyhow..

Boomerang-ing back to the original topic,  as this end of the overall discussion goes,  " Bullet Proof "  has to take into account everything from cold and heat, to sun/ drought / wet tolerance and ..even among generally hardy stuff,     there are a ton of niche / nuanced variables by individual location which can significantly factor into just how bulletproof X Palm ( ....or any  plant    .. because No one living organism is an island  ) can be in any given area.

As the saying goes,  ...Your mileage may vary.

Edited August 27, 2023 by Silas_Sancona
edit

[jwitt]

2 hours ago, Tom in Tucson said:

Jubaea has a range (fairly small) only along the coastal slope, mostly near seasonal stream beds.

Not according to the Chilean government and pics from habitat.  

[Tom in Tucson]

Just now, jwitt said:

Not according to the Chilean government and pics from habitat.  

As can be seen in this beautiful image, the vast majority of this population is concentrated at the bottom of this seasonal stream. Yes there are some on the surrounding hillsides, but I would assume that after many of the floods that occur up in the Andes send flash flood torrents down these usually dry ravines, a fairly large amount of that water ends up being soaked up by the clearly visible boulders and soil that line those seasonal dry arroyos. Any other questions?

Hi 108˚, Lo 83˚ Aug 26

[jwitt]

 

28 minutes ago, Tom in Tucson said:

As can be seen in this beautiful image, the vast majority of this population is concentrated at the bottom of this seasonal stream. Yes there are some on the surrounding hillsides, but I would assume that after many of the floods that occur up in the Andes send flash flood torrents down these usually dry ravines, a fairly large amount of that water ends up being soaked up by the clearly visible boulders and soil that line those seasonal dry arroyos. Any other questions?

Hi 108˚, Lo 83˚ Aug 26

Those aren't the Andes. The pic is facing the ocean.  That is a NE facing slope.  They grow on the mountain sides facing away from the ocean. 

All over the slopes! Yet, never any ocean. 

Slopes of stream beds!

 

Edited August 27, 2023 by jwitt

[Tom in Tucson]

6 hours ago, jwitt said:

 

Those aren't the Andes. The pic is facing the ocean.  That is a NE facing slope.  They grow on the mountain sides facing away from the ocean. 

All over the slopes! Yet, never any ocean. 

Slopes of stream beds!

 

I hope you don't think this response is simply one where I'm trying to contradict you, but in the admittedly small amount of research I've done on their native ecology, these palms (like most palms) relish sunlight. Consequently they are more common on sunny slopes, which in the southern hemisphere is on the north side of any slope. And like most other palms, the slopes on the eastern side (not facing the ocean) will be warmer, which they should thrive on.

As far as the image not being taken toward the Andes, the population density would logically be greatest on the NE facing slopes. Capice?

Hi 112˚, Lo 77˚ - heat alert

[westfork]

On 8/26/2023 at 1:52 PM, fr8train said:

I think zones are based on average lows and not cold snaps. Cold snaps in all of those can be much lower. 

Exactly!  The zones list the "average annual minimum winter temperature"
At our place we go below the low end of the zone rating by 10 degrees every ten years or so and as much as 20 degrees lower in extreme years.  And we can stay at those low end zone temperatures for days on end - Not a touch it and bounce back up event.
Of course, some years we stay warmer and don't get within twenty degrees of the zone temperature.

[Geoff58]

Several of the palms listed for 8A are not hardy in Jackson, Mississippi, which is 8B (usually). No Washingtonian has survived more than two winters here. Some butias have survived. I don't know which variety they are. I had two butias die two or three years ago when we had an extended freeze with heavy snow that lasted for almost a week -- the lows were in the low teens and the highs in the upper 20s. 

All phoenixes I have seen planted died during their first winter, with the exception of one canariensis in a parking lot that lasted for about six years. But most winters it was severely defoliated, and it eventually died.

Sabals (major and minor), trachycarpus, and chamaerops are reliable, although I can't speak to which varieties they are.

[jwitt]

On 8/27/2023 at 9:44 AM, Tom in Tucson said:

AFAIK the largest (with several images online) perished a few years ago.

Even though the sun can be hot in El Paso (been there in July & Aug.) it doesn't come close to the low desert regions of the Sonoran desert.

Can you show some of those online images of the dead jub in El Paso? Or is that another "feeling"?

 

 

[MarcusH]

On 9/3/2023 at 5:13 PM, westfork said:

Exactly!  The zones list the "average annual minimum winter temperature"
At our place we go below the low end of the zone rating by 10 degrees every ten years or so and as much as 20 degrees lower in extreme years.  And we can stay at those low end zone temperatures for days on end - Not a touch it and bounce back up event.
Of course, some years we stay warmer and don't get within twenty degrees of the zone temperature.

Exactly, quite a few people get this wrong.  It's all based on average temperatures but it can get an entire zone colder at some places even more,  that's why it's important to check your record lows for the last 100 years to see how climate , urban heat islands and microclimates changed over the last decades .

I'm here in SoCen Texas I like to compare our hardiness zones to Florida to see the difference of cold weather events.  9a over here it's not the same in Florida.  There freezes are less common and less severe I think the Great Plains play a huge role in our severe freezes here in Texas.  Florida is kind of protected by the Appalachian and Smokey Mountains.  

[Banana Belt]

1 hour ago, MarcusH said:

Exactly, quite a few people get this wrong.  It's all based on average temperatures but it can get an entire zone colder at some places even more,  that's why it's important to check your record lows for the last 100 years to see how climate , urban heat islands and microclimates changed over the last decades .

I'm here in SoCen Texas I like to compare our hardiness zones to Florida to see the difference of cold weather events.  9a over here it's not the same in Florida.  There freezes are less common and less severe I think the Great Plains play a huge role in our severe freezes here in Texas.  Florida is kind of protected by the Appalachian and Smokey Mountains.  

What you say about Mountains and plains in respect to severe freezes is exactly true.  Out here on the Pacific Ocean shore there are range after range of mountains to the east which block or redirect cold air masses pouring down the central continent from the Arctic.  It takes an extreme amount of coincidences in the weather patterns to push cold air from the Canadian Plains into the western shores of North America and counter current to the prevailing west to east air movement across the Pacific. 

The USDA climate map is only a guideline approximating conditions.  9a here in Oregon is nothing like 9a in the south central to eastern parts of the Continent.  For sure the people who worked to compile the USDA map know this, but without making the zones overly complex they probably decided for various reasons to consolidate it into best fit.  That leaves the locals throughout the continent to adjust the climate zones for what works best in their local.

Edited September 13, 2023 by Banana Belt

[SeanK]

6 hours ago, MarcusH said:

Exactly, quite a few people get this wrong.  It's all based on average temperatures but it can get an entire zone colder at some places even more,  that's why it's important to check your record lows for the last 100 years to see how climate , urban heat islands and microclimates changed over the last decades .

I'm here in SoCen Texas I like to compare our hardiness zones to Florida to see the difference of cold weather events.  9a over here it's not the same in Florida.  There freezes are less common and less severe I think the Great Plains play a huge role in our severe freezes here in Texas.  Florida is kind of protected by the Appalachian and Smokey Mountains.  

Florida is a peninsula so it's temps are moderated by the Gulf winds and back flow from the Atlantic. 

The zone rating is based on a -3 sigma number. So in 98 days of winter, expect one night. But in 5 consecutive winters, there is opportunity to go lower. 

As for T.fortunei, none see damage at 10°F, but there is a wide variation of damage (even death) at 5°F. That is why it's rated for z8.

[Tom in Tucson]

21 hours ago, jwitt said:

Can you show some of those online images of the dead jub in El Paso? Or is that another "feeling"?

 

 

I have no idea what you mean by "another "feeling"". The Jubaea I was referring to was much larger (a "stiffy") that was growing near a road. The trunk was as wide as they get in CA, and about 5' high. I don't have a copy of that image, but if you'd like I'll try to locate it for you.

The image you just posted here, I haven't seen before.

Hi 98˚, Lo 72˚

[jwitt]

1 hour ago, Tom in Tucson said:

I have no idea what you mean by "another "feeling"". The Jubaea I was referring to was much larger (a "stiffy") that was growing near a road. The trunk was as wide as they get in CA, and about 5' high. I don't have a copy of that image, but if you'd like I'll try to locate it for you.

The image you just posted here, I haven't seen before.

Hi 98˚, Lo 72˚

"AFAIK the largest (with several images online) perished a few years agoAFAIK the largest (with several images online) perished a few years ago.."

Would love to see the images if you could.   Be pretty cool if it also survived 2011 with back to back 0f degree nights.  Amazing species!  Would love to see for sure. 

[ESVA]

On 8/25/2023 at 8:23 PM, Enar said:

It would be nice to have a list we can all work together on, not only listing cold hardiness but also if the palm likes high/low humidity. Since Jubaea Chilensis for example can withstand colder temperatures but despises humidity. Is there a way to collaborate on say an excel sheet?

Virginia's Eastern Shore peninsula (Accomack & Northampton) I think would be considered fairly humid.  At least I remember coming back from Colorado where I could see for a 100 miles and driving across the Bay-Bridge Tunnel couldn't see more than a couple miles -- like looking through pea soup. Anyhow, I have a Jubaea chilensis that's doing well so far.  It handles drought well as expected and also our wet winters, but really  low winter temps have yet to be tested. 

[jwitt]

3 hours ago, ESVA said:

Virginia's Eastern Shore peninsula (Accomack & Northampton) I think would be considered fairly humid.  At least I remember coming back from Colorado where I could see for a 100 miles and driving across the Bay-Bridge Tunnel couldn't see more than a couple miles -- like looking through pea soup. Anyhow, I have a Jubaea chilensis that's doing well so far.  It handles drought well as expected and also our wet winters, but really  low winter temps have yet to be tested. 

Yeah, I question the humidity thing with this palm also. Coastal Cal/OR are pretty humid also.  

Then they will say hot/humid.  Well Dallas/San Antonio kind of put a damper on that argument, as does eastern VA.

Maybe soil, ph? Something else?

[Tom in Tucson]

On 9/14/2023 at 10:27 AM, jwitt said:

Yeah, I question the humidity thing with this palm also. Coastal Cal/OR are pretty humid also.  

Then they will say hot/humid.  Well Dallas/San Antonio kind of put a damper on that argument, as does eastern VA.

Maybe soil, ph? Something else?

I'm pretty sure that "Something else" that is the most important requirement to a really healthy wine palm is cool nights during the growing period. Ideally between 55˚-65˚. They'll do OK with warmer nights, but when it approaches 80˚ or warmer, they start to decline. Just a theory. I wish I had more data, but it's not easy to find.

Hi 103˚, Lo 68˚