Cold Hardy Dwarfs?

[Dwarf Fan]

New member question,

First off howdy y’all and may I say nice forum, 🤠

So, I have started building my “dream palm paradise backyard oasis” at my new house and have started doing research on finding smaller palms that won’t get too big because I have a narrow backyard. After doing hours and hours of online research I noticed this seems to be the best place for the level of plan addiction that I have been afflicted with so I figured I might as well join up because at this point I feel I know more about palms than most nursery people!

My question is I am in Zone 9b and I am looking for a new cold hardy dwarf palms that I don’t have yet I’m running out of options at my local nurseries and I’m starting to resort to longer and longer road trips and ordering palms online to find new palms that I don’t have yet.

I listed what I have so far in my about me section here is my current collection:

7x Sabal Minor, 2x Livistona Chinensis, 2x Chamaerops Humilis, 2x Rhapidophyllum Hystrix, 1x Serenoa Repens, 1x Trachycarpus Wagnerianus, 1x Thrinax Radiata, 1x Washingtonia Filibusta, 1x Cycas Revoluta

What is cold hardy, will grow in 9b AND stayed under 30 feet tall???

[thyerr01]

With a Texas 9b that is likely subject to occasional severe freezes I like things that cluster and have a chance of returning.

With varying degrees of risk, and in alphabetic order (as opposed to any particular recommendation), consider some of these: 

Arenga engleri, Arenga ryukyuensis, Caryota monostachya, Chamaedorea cataractum, Chamaedorea microspadix, Chuniophoenix hainanensis, Chuniophoenix nana, Lanonia dasyantha, Licuala fordiana, Licuala spinosa, Rhapis excelsa, Rhapis humilis, Rhapis multifida, Wallichia caryotoides, and Wallichia oblongifolia (syn. densiflora).

All are clustering with the exception of Chamaedorea radicalis, which is absolutely cold hardy in a Texas 9b, and none will exceed 10 m/30 ft. Some are more available than others, and some probably only by seed. Floribunda has a couple of these currently. Might be worth pitching in with some other Texas folks for a Floribunda order.

I'm curious how your T. radiata does in winter. That will need some protection.

Edited July 12, 2023 by thyerr01

[amh]

What is the sun exposure for your backyard, water source and what type of soil do you have?

[Dwarf Fan]

3 hours ago, thyerr01 said:

With a Texas 9b that is likely subject to occasional severe freezes I like things that cluster and have a chance of returning.

With varying degrees of risk, and in alphabetic order (as opposed to any particular recommendation), consider some of these: 

Arenga engleri, Arenga ryukyuensis, Caryota monostachya, Chamaedorea cataractum, Chamaedorea microspadix, Chuniophoenix hainanensis, Chuniophoenix nana, Lanonia dasyantha, Licuala fordiana, Licuala spinosa, Rhapis excelsa, Rhapis humilis, Rhapis multifida, Wallichia caryotoides, and Wallichia oblongifolia (syn. densiflora).

All are clustering with the exception of Chamaedorea radicalis, which is absolutely cold hardy in a Texas 9b, and none will exceed 10 m/30 ft. Some are more available than others, and some probably only by seed. Floribunda has a couple of these currently. Might be worth pitching in with some other Texas folks for a Floribunda order.

I'm curious how your T. radiata does in winter. That will need some protection.

 

Wow that is an impressive list, thank you very much thyerr01 that is exactly what I was hoping for! I like clustering palms especially if they have a tropical look to them. I’ve already had my eye on Arenga engleri as a definite contender for the backyard. The Thrinax Radiata I picked up from a nursery in San Antonio, the owner was in a good mood so he let it go for only $25 (3 Gal is still in the grower pot I am planning on tucking it in close to the house to try and protect it, and for the price I paid if it dies I won’t cry myself to sleep! Even if I only get a few years out of it it will be worth it because I really like the tropical look of the fronds.

[Dwarf Fan]

3 hours ago, amh said:

What is the sun exposure for your backyard, water source and what type of soil do you have?

My backyard faces north but I get copious amounts of bright direct sunlight, I am right on the Gulf. 

My front and backyard is all pure sand. I have been digging holes double the width of the size grower pots that the plants come in and replacing the sand with organic in-ground bagged soil from the Orange Big Box store. For my first 2 palms I noticed the soil didn’t have good drainage and it seemed to have too much clay (it was from Texas so that makes sense). I did some reading and found people saying sandier soils have better drainage so I went to the blue big box store and found a landscaping specific soil made for flowers and vegetables it was a much darker black had a fair amount of sand and lots of wood mulch, it also didn’t have they “clay” quality and was more “airy”, it was out of Georgia. It has much better drainage and just enough water retention qualities it seems to be a much better mix it was also cheaper and seemed marketed to landscaping professionals not the “home owner” type.

I have also been putting in Palm Tone according to directions on all my new palm plantings.

If anyone has aif If anyone has any recommendations/advice on soil or soil mixes I am all ears.

[Dwarf Fan]

Forget to add water source is city municipal water source. Not on a well or anything.

[SeanK]

13 hours ago, thyerr01 said:

With a Texas 9b that is likely subject to occasional severe freezes I like things that cluster and have a chance of returning.

With varying degrees of risk, and in alphabetic order (as opposed to any particular recommendation), consider some of these: 

Arenga engleri, Arenga ryukyuensis, Caryota monostachya, Chamaedorea cataractum, Chamaedorea microspadix, Chuniophoenix hainanensis, Chuniophoenix nana, Lanonia dasyantha, Licuala fordiana, Licuala spinosa, Rhapis excelsa, Rhapis humilis, Rhapis multifida, Wallichia caryotoides, and Wallichia oblongifolia (syn. densiflora).

All are clustering with the exception of Chamaedorea radicalis, which is absolutely cold hardy in a Texas 9b, and none will exceed 10 m/30 ft. Some are more available than others, and some probably only by seed. Floribunda has a couple of these currently. Might be worth pitching in with some other Texas folks for a Floribunda order.

I'm curious how your T. radiata does in winter. That will need some protection.

I agree with these. The original list is largely palmate and needs addition of pinnate species. Jelly palm and Mule shouldn't need protection, if you're growing Livistona. By z9b I assume SE Houston or south of the city going towards Galveston. NW HOU gets progressively cooler in winter.

[amh]

On 7/12/2023 at 12:15 AM, Dwarf Fan said:

My backyard faces north but I get copious amounts of bright direct sunlight, I am right on the Gulf. 

My front and backyard is all pure sand. I have been digging holes double the width of the size grower pots that the plants come in and replacing the sand with organic in-ground bagged soil from the Orange Big Box store. For my first 2 palms I noticed the soil didn’t have good drainage and it seemed to have too much clay (it was from Texas so that makes sense). I did some reading and found people saying sandier soils have better drainage so I went to the blue big box store and found a landscaping specific soil made for flowers and vegetables it was a much darker black had a fair amount of sand and lots of wood mulch, it also didn’t have they “clay” quality and was more “airy”, it was out of Georgia. It has much better drainage and just enough water retention qualities it seems to be a much better mix it was also cheaper and seemed marketed to landscaping professionals not the “home owner” type.

I have also been putting in Palm Tone according to directions on all my new palm plantings.

If anyone has aif If anyone has any recommendations/advice on soil or soil mixes I am all ears.

 

On 7/12/2023 at 12:17 AM, Dwarf Fan said:

Forget to add water source is city municipal water source. Not on a well or anything.

My biggest concern for the soil and water source is salinity, but most of the hardy palms would be unaffected. Most of the chamaedorea genus will like shade, but Chamaedorea radicalis seems to like sun.  Phoenix roebelenii might be hardy in your area and the butia genus might work too.

[teddytn]

If it wasn’t already mentioned try to get your hands on a brahea decumbens for a dwarf suggestion. 
 

Every yard and planting location is different totally get it. I have red clay here in TN and in some spots stays almost permanently moist just below the surface year round, in others with even a slight pitch they can drain and dry out very quickly. Just asking here, if your yard is pure sand you should have excellent drainage no? 
 

I’ve always wondered what the best plan of action is for planting palms and other plants near the coast. Sabals for sure don’t mind growing in pure sand with no fertilizer or supplemental water. What about other species, and in a home garden setting with pure sand?

[Dwarf Fan]

3 hours ago, amh said:

 

My biggest concern for the soil and water source is salinity, but most of the hardy palms would be unaffected. Most of the chamaedorea genus will like shade, but Chamaedorea radicalis seems to like sun.  Phoenix roebelenii might be hardy in your area and the butia genus might work too.

The Phoenix roebelenii population here was almost completely wiped out in ‘21 my neighbor lost one and has a straggler that is still struggling to try and come all the way back.

 Pygmy Date is a for sure no go but I really like the look of the Chamaedorea radicalis it is exciting knowing that something that looks so tropical should be fine in my zone! Thanks for the recommendations!

 

Should I be worried about the salinity of the Municipal tap water that is coming out of my hose? 

[Dwarf Fan]

1 hour ago, teddytn said:

If it wasn’t already mentioned try to get your hands on a brahea decumbens for a dwarf suggestion. 
 

Every yard and planting location is different totally get it. I have red clay here in TN and in some spots stays almost permanently moist just below the surface year round, in others with even a slight pitch they can drain and dry out very quickly. Just asking here, if your yard is pure sand you should have excellent drainage no? 
 

I’ve always wondered what the best plan of action is for planting palms and other plants near the coast. Sabals for sure don’t mind growing in pure sand with no fertilizer or supplemental water. What about other species, and in a home garden setting with pure sand?

Hi Teddy, YES I have great drainage with the sand here where I live now, when I lived in Central Texas the soil there was a dense clay that hard horrible drainage and held too much water and not enough oxygen, plants pretty much universally hated it.

There is an almost 20 year old Washingtonia Filifera in my yard that is an absolute BEAST growing directly out of the sand and the neighbors tell me it has been neglected, never watered or fertilized during its entire life.

I also inherited a cycas revolta that has been here a few years planted straight into the sand and it just took a little bit of water it looks great now.

I plan on digging out twice the diameter of whatever size grower pots I get my palms in and then putting in good soil with some Palm Tone fertilizer… unless I find out a better alternative or soil mix from the gurus here but that is probably a topic for another thread.

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Dwarf Fan

[amh]

2 hours ago, Dwarf Fan said:

The Phoenix roebelenii population here was almost completely wiped out in ‘21 my neighbor lost one and has a straggler that is still struggling to try and come all the way back.

 Pygmy Date is a for sure no go but I really like the look of the Chamaedorea radicalis it is exciting knowing that something that looks so tropical should be fine in my zone! Thanks for the recommendations!

 

Should I be worried about the salinity of the Municipal tap water that is coming out of my hose? 

Salt levels in the tap water can be an issue, but being near the beach means that your air and soil will be salty. I checked the sodium content for Corpus Christi municipal water, which is 89ppm. This is likely too high for Chamaedorea microspadix, but I would still recommend trying Chamaedorea radicalis. I get some leaf burn on my Chamaedorea microspadix, with a sodium content of 15.4ppm. Hopefully, someone from Florida or your area will have some insight on the salinity issue. I'll take pictures of the 2 species tomorrow. Chamaedorea radicalis seems to be a palm that thrives on neglect, but is just not sold locally, check with @DoomsDavefor seeds.

Drive around town and see what is thriving, there are a lot of salt tolerant palms and cycads to grow.

[Dwarf Fan]

30 minutes ago, amh said:

Salt levels in the tap water can be an issue, but being near the beach means that your air and soil will be salty. I checked the sodium content for Corpus Christi municipal water, which is 89ppm. This is likely too high for Chamaedorea microspadix, but I would still recommend trying Chamaedorea radicalis. I get some leaf burn on my Chamaedorea microspadix, with a sodium content of 15.4ppm. Hopefully, someone from Florida or your area will have some insight on the salinity issue. I'll take pictures of the 2 species tomorrow. Chamaedorea radicalis seems to be a palm that thrives on neglect, but is just not sold locally, check with @DoomsDavefor seeds.

Drive around town and see what is thriving, there are a lot of salt tolerant palms and cycads to grow.

Wow, I had no idea that the amount of salt in municipal tapwater could be a dealbreaker for different species of Palms (I assume that the air and the sand both contain higher salt content here)… is there a reference/resource for each Palm species sodium threshold like for height and cold hardiness?

I have noticed there’s just not a lot of different Palm varieties here on the Island except for a few exceptions here and there every yard on the island has the same handful of different palms kind of boring actually... But I attributed that to the lack of availability at the Nurseries and Big Boxes.

I have talked to a few locals but haven’t found anyone who is really knowledgeable here locally yet. I did notice there is a member here who lives here as well I should probably try sending him a Message.

While out and about I have actively been trying to keep track of anything “different” that happens to not be the usual common Palms that I spot in peoples yards.

[Xerarch]

@Dwarf Fan if you want something different and you don’t ever want to mess with it dying in cold then the mule palm that has already been suggested would be an excellent choice, I live here in CC, there are very few mules around town I suppose due to their limited availability and lack of knowledge about them, there is one house on the island with a handful of them in the front yard, you should check it out to get an idea, Sea Pines and Palmira. I also have 3 in my yard, but they are not as big as those, and I’m not on the island. 

As for the aforementioned Chamaedorea radicalis, I have a few that I grew from seeds from Doomsdave. They seem pretty tough in my conditions and are doing well but they are such a small palm you need a group of them to make an effect. If you say you like dwarfs, these have a very skinny trunk but will get a little height. 

[Xerarch]

Oh and another thing, the coconut queen was mentioned before, they actually have some of these at Turner’s. I was pleasantly surprised to see them, that’s unique and would do well here in general, but probably not an excellent performer in the rare ‘21 type scenario. 

[WSimpson]

Sabal Birmingham ; mine with a little winter tip burn after 6F last winter . Butias are relatively small . That's a good feather leaf palm for you unless your too hot there ?

 

 

 

 

[amh]

On 7/13/2023 at 11:07 PM, Dwarf Fan said:

Wow, I had no idea that the amount of salt in municipal tapwater could be a dealbreaker for different species of Palms (I assume that the air and the sand both contain higher salt content here)… is there a reference/resource for each Palm species sodium threshold like for height and cold hardiness?

I have noticed there’s just not a lot of different Palm varieties here on the Island except for a few exceptions here and there every yard on the island has the same handful of different palms kind of boring actually... But I attributed that to the lack of availability at the Nurseries and Big Boxes.

I have talked to a few locals but haven’t found anyone who is really knowledgeable here locally yet. I did notice there is a member here who lives here as well I should probably try sending him a Message.

While out and about I have actively been trying to keep track of anything “different” that happens to not be the usual common Palms that I spot in peoples yards.

I'm not aware of any real resources for salt tolerance of various palm species, but palmpedia has a lot of information. The people in College Station have salty tap water, so they would be a good resource to use.

Texas in general doesn't have a big variety of palms for sale, which is why I have started everything I have from seed.

I didn't get a chance to take pictures today, but I will try to get a comparison shot tomorrow.

[amh]

Apples to apples comparison on the two hardy chamaedoreas. 2 Chamaedorea radicalis are on the left growing in full sun and 2 Chamaedorea microspadix on the right growing under canopy. All 4 palms are the same approximate age and are all in 1 gallon pots.

[MattInRaleigh]

On 7/14/2023 at 10:13 AM, Will Simpson said:

Sabal Birmingham ; mine with a little winter tip burn after 6F last winter . Butias are relatively small . That's a good feather leaf palm for you unless your too hot there ?

 

 

 

 

Did you protect the Butia during the 6F?

[WSimpson]

I placed pine needle bales around the trunk and covered the bales with a blanket , and put a hot light bulb under the protection . I was mainly just trying to keep the trunk alive knowing that I could recover the palm to respectability if I saved the trunk . When I checked in on the palm the next morning the heat source wasn't working for some reason ? It's possible that only the bales did any protection for the majority of that night and early morning ? As well , the unprotected fronds had plenty of green left on them from that severe cold , so I think it would've survived without any protection since the fronds , that should've  been been the least hardy part of the palm , and totally unprotected , had plenty of live tissue on them . Below I will show you the extent of the fronds that stayed alive  . 

It's in a great microclimate along with that Chammy next to it . Both have grown a lot since this picture  :

 

 

 

 

NC native Minor :

 

 

Edited July 16, 2023 by Will Simpson

[MattInRaleigh]

9 hours ago, Will Simpson said:

I placed pine needle bales around the trunk and covered the bales with a blanket , and put a hot light bulb under the protection . I was mainly just trying to keep the trunk alive knowing that I could recover the palm to respectability if I saved the trunk . When I checked in on the palm the next morning the heat source wasn't working for some reason ? It's possible that only the bales did any protection for the majority of that night and early morning ? As well , the unprotected fronds had plenty of green left on them from that severe cold , so I think it would've survived without any protection since the fronds , that should've  been been the least hardy part of the palm , and totally unprotected , had plenty of live tissue on them . Below I will show you the extent of the fronds that stayed alive  . 

It's in a great microclimate along with that Chammy next to it . Both have grown a lot since this picture  :

 

 

 

 

NC native Minor :

 

 

Very cool! I was thinking about a butia in Raleigh but got discouraged after Juniper Level Botanic Garden said 8 died before they got one to survive:
https://www.plantdelights.com/blogs/articles/cold-hardy-palms-windmill-needle-palm-tree-weather

[Xerarch]

On 7/15/2023 at 6:59 PM, amh said:

Apples to apples comparison on the two hardy chamaedoreas. 2 Chamaedorea radicalis are on the left growing in full sun and 2 Chamaedorea microspadix on the right growing under canopy. All 4 palms are the same approximate age and are all in 1 gallon pots.

Nice to see that comparison, didn’t realize the leaflets were so different 

[WSimpson]

17 hours ago, MattInRaleigh said:

Very cool! I was thinking about a butia in Raleigh but got discouraged after Juniper Level Botanic Garden said 8 died before they got one to survive:
https://www.plantdelights.com/blogs/articles/cold-hardy-palms-windmill-needle-palm-tree-weather

Plant  your Butia  under the eave on the south side of the house  and you might be successful . My palm had fronds that extended out past the eave of the house and the majority of those  fronds survived that windy 6F that I had here on Christmas eave . It's a great microclimate .

Will

Edited July 17, 2023 by Will Simpson

[amh]

1 hour ago, Xerarch said:

Nice to see that comparison, didn’t realize the leaflets were so different 

I think the leaves of both species will change a bit with maturation, but for now, there is no problem differentiating which is which.

These plants were exposed to 18F in an unheated tent style greenhouse as well as about a week of temperatures at or below freezing; neither species had cold damage.

[Xenon]

Here is Chamaedorea microspadix in Savannah, GA...the wider relaxed leaflets are retained in mature form (both clumps were setting seed), very different from C. radicalis