Jump to content

  • WELCOME GUEST

    It looks as if you are viewing PalmTalk as an unregistered Guest.

    Please consider registering so as to take better advantage of our vast knowledge base and friendly community.  By registering you will gain access to many features - among them are our powerful Search feature, the ability to Private Message other Users, and be able to post and/or answer questions from all over the world. It is completely free, no “catches,” and you will have complete control over how you wish to use this site.

    PalmTalk is sponsored by the International Palm Society. - an organization dedicated to learning everything about and enjoying palm trees (and their companion plants) while conserving endangered palm species and habitat worldwide. Please take the time to know us all better and register.

    guest Renda04.jpg

Calling all Ceroxylon experts identification required

Tassie_Troy1971

By Tassie_Troy1971
in DISCUSSING PALM TREES WORLDWIDE

 Share

Recommended Posts

Tassie_Troy1971 Grand Master

Tassie_Troy1971

Posted
Posted

I have these 2 Ceroxylon species in my garden that I have been growing since 2009 the seeds were purchased as Ceroxylon parvifrons but definitely not as parvifrons had leaflets arranged on the same plane not irregular 

Can anyone identify this Ceroxylon 

20230709_145607.jpg

20230709_145633.jpg

20230709_145556.jpg

20230709_145726.jpg

  • Like 6
  • Upvote 1

Old Beach ,Hobart
Tasmania ,Australia. 42 " south
Cool Maritime climate

tim_brissy_13 Grand Master

tim_brissy_13

Posted
Posted

I can’t claim to be an expert, but I think the consensus is that RPS C ‘parvifrons’ seed has turned out to be vogelianum. Habitat may have some cross over too so I think it makes sense. 
 

I germinated a 2018 batch of C ‘parvifrons’ and they are still turning out to be plumose. Not sure how RPS can get it so wrong for so long (although don’t get me wrong, C vogelianum is also a very nice palm). 

  • Upvote 1

Tim Brisbane

Patterson Lakes, bayside Melbourne, Australia

Rarely Frost

2005 Minimum: 2.6C,  Maximum: 44C

2005 Average: 17.2C, warmest on record.

richnorm Grand Master

richnorm

Posted
Posted

Seems to be a fair bit a variation with these from RPS around that time. I would love to know the provenance of the seed.   Vogelianum can have quite a vertical form (like parvifrons) so maybe it was just a careless ID?

tim_brissy_13 Grand Master

tim_brissy_13

Posted
Posted
10 hours ago, richnorm said:

Seems to be a fair bit a variation with these from RPS around that time. I would love to know the provenance of the seed.   Vogelianum can have quite a vertical form (like parvifrons) so maybe it was just a careless ID?

If that’s true it was done repeatedly over numerous batches for about 8-10 years. I raised this with RPS but didn’t get any response other than they are confident in their IDs. Palms from these batches all over the globe are certainly turning out not to be parvifrons. All that I’ve seen (Sydney Bot Gardens, University of Melbourne, Troy’s on this thread and mine etc) all seem to be turning out similarly with that upright plumose growth. 

Tim Brisbane

Patterson Lakes, bayside Melbourne, Australia

Rarely Frost

2005 Minimum: 2.6C,  Maximum: 44C

2005 Average: 17.2C, warmest on record.

richnorm Grand Master

richnorm

Posted
Posted
24 minutes ago, tim_brissy_13 said:

If that’s true it was done repeatedly over numerous batches for about 8-10 years. I raised this with RPS but didn’t get any response other than they are confident in their IDs. Palms from these batches all over the globe are certainly turning out not to be parvifrons. All that I’ve seen (Sydney Bot Gardens, University of Melbourne, Troy’s on this thread and mine etc) all seem to be turning out similarly with that upright plumose growth. 

I was alluding to the possibilty of hybridisation. Perhaps they came from a collection? So weird that they could have got it wrong several times.  I have seen multiple examples and they seem to have subtle differences to my eyes but are all are upright and plumose.  Troy's seems (to me)  more like a ventricosum leaf than the typical vogelianum.   Others have more brown on the undersides and stubbier leaflets.  One I have won't grow and has very thin leaflets which are differently grouped.  Mine have come from different batches but I don't have detailed records.

tim_brissy_13 Grand Master

tim_brissy_13

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, richnorm said:

I was alluding to the possibilty of hybridisation. Perhaps they came from a collection? So weird that they could have got it wrong several times.  I have seen multiple examples and they seem to have subtle differences to my eyes but are all are upright and plumose.  Troy's seems (to me)  more like a ventricosum leaf than the typical vogelianum.   Others have more brown on the undersides and stubbier leaflets.  One I have won't grow and has very thin leaflets which are differently grouped.  Mine have come from different batches but I don't have detailed records.

I’ve had the same thoughts in regards to hybridisation Rich. Some of the ‘parvifrons’ have very strong silver/copper colouration with thick leaflets as you note, but very plumose. 
 

I also have what I thought was ventricosum from a 2007 seed batch. It’s now about my head height after finally taking off in the ground, but looks nothing like Troy’s palm. I’ll add some photos soon. 

Tim Brisbane

Patterson Lakes, bayside Melbourne, Australia

Rarely Frost

2005 Minimum: 2.6C,  Maximum: 44C

2005 Average: 17.2C, warmest on record.

tim_brissy_13 Grand Master

tim_brissy_13

Posted
Posted

C ‘parvifrons’ - Sydney Botanic Gardens

20171027_112247_Original.thumb.jpeg.02bf6461f0886fcd465fd5a3b5a62af2.jpeg

C ‘parvifrons’ - University of Melbourne 

IMG_5089_Original.thumb.jpeg.8012a2d39d12e92d930fda06551d2c08.jpeg
 

One of my C ‘parvifrons’  both already turning out plumose

IMG_7118.thumb.jpeg.6293bb8bc2f024d577378b268700fb56.jpeg

And my C ‘ventricosum’ - not really like any others here 

5A443FF2-620D-4AAB-959D-0E7FB53ED94B.thumb.jpeg.257b165151501a6345930614ff3edf16.jpeg

  • Like 1

Tim Brisbane

Patterson Lakes, bayside Melbourne, Australia

Rarely Frost

2005 Minimum: 2.6C,  Maximum: 44C

2005 Average: 17.2C, warmest on record.

Darold Petty Grand Master

Darold Petty

Posted
Posted

I have C. parvifrons, quindiuense, and vogelianum, all of which I am fairly confident about the ID.  I will try to post some images tomorrow.

  • Like 2

San Francisco, California

Darold Petty Grand Master

Darold Petty

Posted
Posted

OK, these are old images, but just as good as if I made new ones.

The first two are Ceroxylon parvifrons, grown from seed mailed to me by the late Inge Hoffman.

The third and fourth images are C. quindiuense, seed collection in Colombia by the late Garrin Fullington.

The fifth image is C. vogelianum (formerly C. hexandrum), from RPR seed.  Note the distinctive 'bunched' leaflets.

The last image is wild C. vogelianum in southern Ecuador, near the border with Peru.  Sorry, but I do not have a closer image of an adult, wild palm.  :winkie: 

IMG_2453.JPG

IMG_2454.JPG

IMG_0525.JPG

IMG_0527.JPG

IMG_2455.JPG

IMG_2783.JPG

  • Like 2

San Francisco, California

Darold Petty Grand Master

Darold Petty

Posted
Posted

Here are two images, made today, of Ceroxylon parvifrons from RPS seed.  This one is an adolescent and will soon show actual trunk.  Note the fawn colored indumentum on the underside of the leaflets, petiole, and spear.   Sorry for the intrusive stem of Chamaedorea plumosa !  :D

IMG_0597.JPG

IMG_0598.JPG

San Francisco, California

tim_brissy_13 Grand Master

tim_brissy_13

Posted
Posted
41 minutes ago, Darold Petty said:

Here are two images, made today, of Ceroxylon parvifrons from RPS seed.  This one is an adolescent and will soon show actual trunk.  Note the fawn colored indumentum on the underside of the leaflets, petiole, and spear.   Sorry for the intrusive stem of Chamaedorea plumosa !  :D

IMG_0597.JPG

IMG_0598.JPG

Amazing Darold! Do you know what year you got the seed from RPS for this C parvifrons? 
 

By the way, I think you’re right. All of your IDs look accurate to me. 

  • Like 1

Tim Brisbane

Patterson Lakes, bayside Melbourne, Australia

Rarely Frost

2005 Minimum: 2.6C,  Maximum: 44C

2005 Average: 17.2C, warmest on record.

Darold Petty Grand Master

Darold Petty

Posted
Posted

Tim, I am sorry, but I misspoke.  The adolescent C. parvifrons has incomplete accession info.  My records show only that it was a gift as a small plant around year 2000, I don't recall the donor, and thus cannot access any info about the seed source.  Also, it seems to be much slower growing than my trunked one.

I don't know how this happened, usually I am more careful about record keeping.  :(

San Francisco, California

Tomas Experienced

Tomas

Posted
Posted
18 hours ago, Darold Petty said:

OK, these are old images, but just as good as if I made new ones.

The first two are Ceroxylon parvifrons, grown from seed mailed to me by the late Inge Hoffman.

Hi Darold, I have noticed that the scars on the trunk of the two Ceroxylons get denser the higher up you go. Does that say anything about the age and the  future of the palm? I have some old Chamaedoreas with trunks that do the same thing

Darold Petty Grand Master

Darold Petty

Posted
Posted

Most palms slow down the rate of trunk extension as they age, and that behavior should be considered a normal development  through the life cycle of the palm. 

My Chamaedorea plumosa show this trait also.  :) 

  • Like 1

San Francisco, California

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share
Go to topic listing



  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...