United Kingdom vs Holland vs Central Texas Mega Thread

[Little Tex]

1 hour ago, JLM said:

Heres a CIDP(?) in Downtown Pensacola. Wow! Image from May 2022. Whether its a CIDP or not, its still massive and gets credit somewhere.

Its probably half CIDP and half Dacty 

[NBTX11]

To be honest, San Antonio's main comparison is the Florida panhandle, while Houston's is Jacksonville, Florida.  The areas are virtually identical palm wise.

London needs to do a comparison thread with Brookings Oregon or Victoria BC.  

Edited March 29, 2023 by NBTX11

[UK_Palms]

7 hours ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Indeed, Cornwall is famous for being mild. I am looking for longer term CIDP’s and washingtonia’s in this part of the UK. 

What about this part of the UK? It’s slap bang in the middle of northern England. The city of Leeds is 60 miles inland from the coast at 54N.

 

Obviously this CIDP isn’t as impressive as the London and south coast ones, since it hasn’t been there as long and grows slower at that latitude. I thought it would die a while back, but it has been getting bigger and bigger. 9 years in the ground up there. No doubt the UHI is playing a part too. It’s the 7th biggest city in England. Still well inland and up at 54N though.

There was a photo posted of it a few weeks ago, following this ‘bad’ winter. Barely a spec of damage and it is also flowering.

 

Not to mention the one in North Shields near Newcastle at 55N of the equator.

 

Post winter shot as well. Apparently it has been growing there since 2015. Never protected. There are several like this near there.

How much higher latitude do you want me to go? Next latitude is 56N. These ones are probably larger than the biggest long term specimens in the Netherlands, not counting the ones that get wrapped up and protected every other winter over there. Don’t tell me Newcastle grows a better CIDP than Amsterdam!?

Edited March 29, 2023 by UK_Palms

[Foxpalms]

8 hours ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Indeed, Cornwall is famous for being mild. I am looking for longer term CIDP’s and washingtonia’s in this part of the UK. 

Here is a washingtonia growing at 53N with no Urban heat island effect inland in northern Wales. It is growing at a family members house so I won't be posting the location. It has been in the ground before 2010 however it was causing damage because it was close to the house. It was then cut down a few years ago however part of it survived and it was then replanted in the back garden. So it has gone through 2010, 2018 and this winter unprotected, the reason it's not taller was because it was cut down I remember it when It was in the front garden and it was taller than it currently is now. The red dot is a rough idea of where it is.

 

Edited March 30, 2023 by Foxpalms

[Foxpalms]

1 hour ago, NBTX11 said:

To be honest, San Antonio's main comparison is the Florida panhandle, while Houston's is Jacksonville, Florida.  The areas are virtually identical palm wise.

London needs to do a comparison thread with Brookings Oregon or Victoria BC.  

Brookings Oregon would be a fair comparison for plants. About as tropical as it gets in BC is the Norfolk Island pine in Tofino. That can't compete with archontophoenix, howea forsteriana, Rhopalostylis, monstera deliciosa, cordyline fruticosa ect. 

Edited March 30, 2023 by Foxpalms

[Teegurr]

1 hour ago, Foxpalms said:

Brookings Oregon would be a fair comparison for plants. About as tropical as it gets in BC is the Norfolk Island pine in Tofino. That can't compete with archontophoenix, howea forsteriana, Rhopalostylis, monstera deliciosa, cordyline fruticosa ect. 

So is London like Christchurch, NZ?

Edited March 30, 2023 by Teegurr

[UK_Palms]

@Xenon Obviously Houston will have much bigger Washingtonia as they were being planted there way earlier, especially in the early-mid 90's following that 89' freeze. They were planted over here much later, mostly in the mid-late 2000's when they became available. These ones will almost certainly attain the same size in due course, based off the growth rates shown here. They are not slouches at all and would need all-time record low temperatures to take them out now in most places.

The earliest street view on the Wimbledon Filibusta only goes back to 2009. The second photo shows it in 2022...

 

Greenwich 'Robusta' in 2009 and then again in 2022...

 

Kew/Richmond 'Robustas' in 2012 and then again in 2022...

 

 New Malden Filibusta in 2008 and again in 2022...

 

Minster on Sea washie in 2009 and then again in 2021...

 

Sandsfoot Gardens in Weymouth shown in 2009 and then again in 2022...

 

Portsmouth Washie in 2011 and again in 2022...

 

Ventnor Washingtonia in 2007 and again in 2021...

 

The Phoenix Canariensis in London are on steroids for this latitude... 2008 vs 2022...

 

2008 vs 2022...

 

The 'daddy' shown in 1994-95 and again in 2023, post winter...

 

Backyard Bermondsey CIDP's in 2008 and again in 2022...

 

2008 vs 2022...

 

2008 vs 2022...

 

Down to the south coast, some insane growth on this Torquay CIDP from 2008 to 2022...

 

Penzance in 2009 and again in 2022...

 

The most insane growth of all is probably the Southsea, Portsmouth seedlings going from this in 1998 to this in 2022 in this northern latitude...

 

They are so rapid that they have barely shed any of the trunk boots yet. I saw someone comment about the CIDP and Washingtonia not losing their trunk boots in southern England, but its actually just where they are growing so fast that they haven't had time to smooth out. You end up with big trunks covered in boots still.

 

The record low at Southsea, Ventnor, Falmouth, London City Airport etc is like -6C / 20F in 1963 or 1987, so these are never going to get taken out now they are at this size. They just weren't being planted on the mainland until the past 20 years or so and they all came though December 2010 when they were much smaller, which was the coldest December month on record for us.

[Xenon]

56 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

@Xenon Obviously Houston will have much bigger Washingtonia as they were being planted there way earlier, especially in the early-mid 90's following that 89' freeze. They were planted over here much later, mostly in the mid-late 2000's when they became available. These ones will almost certainly attain the same size in due course, based off the growth rates shown here. They are not slouches at all and would need all-time record low temperatures to take them out now in most places.

The earliest street view on the Wimbledon Filibusta only goes back to 2009. The second photo shows it in 2022...

Nice pics! Much more amicable and productive conversation overall if we appreciate beautiful palms growing where they are without making wild comparisons and claims.

[Axel Amsterdam]

1 hour ago, Xenon said:

Nice pics! Much more amicable and productive conversation overall if we appreciate beautiful palms growing where they are without making wild comparisons and claims.

Yes, thanks both UK palms and Foxpalms for finding both the CIDP and the washingtonia in inland locations. 

[Foxpalms]

5 hours ago, Teegurr said:

So is London like Christchurch, NZ?

Yes fairly similar.  I think Christchurch can only grow the 9b palms in certain microclimates of the city. The 9b palms except howea forsteriana are not commonly sold here unless you go to an exotic plant nursery. For that reason you see them in central London but they are not as popular as I would like! I think Christchurch can also grow parajubaea ect like here.

[Foxpalms]

@UK_PalmsThe record low in Ventnor I'm.pretty sure is -3c/26f. The -6c low was recorded at the golf course which is just outside of Ventnor and gets a lot colder, as shown here in this photo from this winter. A 13f difference between the two locations!

[Axel Amsterdam]

25 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

Yes fairly similar.  I think Christchurch can only grow the 9b palms in certain microclimates of the city. The 9b palms except howea forsteriana are not commonly sold here unless you go to an exotic plant nursery. For that reason you see them in central London but they are not as popular as I would like! I think Christchurch can also grow parajubaea ect like here.

It would be great if someone finds a planted out howea in central London. We know it can be done because the potted ones survive longer term at entrances of hotels and restaurants. I have also never seen any nikaus planted out in central London but that seems possible too. 

[Foxpalms]

1 minute ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

It would be great if someone finds a planted out howea in central London. We know it can be done because the potted ones survive longer term at entrances of hotels and restaurants. I have also never seen any nikaus planted out in central London but that seems possible too. 

I will post pictures of mine when I get back to London. The nikaus are still fairly small because they grow slowly and you can't purchase large ones here. Somewhere such as the Chelsea physic garden needs to plant nikaus, archontophoenix and howea. As that is as a botanical garden in central London next to the River Thames.

[MarcusH]

18 hours ago, Hortulanus said:

Palms grow here without protection. Trachycarpus and Chamaerops at least, have been around here for decades and survived the worst winters. Even the city council has planted palms. There are also many long term Jubaeas and Butias around. "20 or 30 years is not long term success"??? Yes it is! 20 or 30 years show everything weather can throw at them. Saying such things is rude to anybody who has been zone pushing and growing for such a long period of time. And as I've said palms have been grown here for over 60 years. Palm culture is only starting to get big here in recent years. Your main point: "Germany is not an ideal place to grow palms". Not Germany but the mildest parts. In fact it's the perfect climate for some palms like Trachycarpus. How long have you been growing palms? I've been growing palms here in the exact same garden for 15 years now. And besides everything that's bulletproof here I tried and pushed so many things with lots of trial and errors and I have many succsess. But that's not the point...

... because you don't even ask about anything you just dismiss a whole palm growing scene and this brings me back to the main point:
I didn't say anything about palms in Germany or the UK. I was talking about the difference between cold blasts in the West and East. You also proceeded to put words in my mouth, I didn't say. TO THEN in another comment right after say the same things, I supposedly said!  So why are you randomly talking down my realm without me even mentioning it? We didn't have any issues before. Not even a discussion... I don't understand the random rudeness behind it. 🤷‍♂️

I didn't want to make you feel like you can't grow any palm in Germany . From my observation I didn't see any palms planted in the ground which made me believe there can't be palms successfully grown but apparently,  and you showed proof , there are pockets of zones where certain type of palms can be grown . I apologize if I doubted your comments.  

[UK_Palms]

Some 55N Washingtonia’s incoming. These are further north than the southern-most tip of Alaska. Never protected and growing steadily over the past 4-5 years at least. These would have been planted very, very small as tiny B&Q seedlings. They are moving further and further north.

 

That CIDP I posted in North Shields (55N) is also further north than the southern-most tip of Alaska as well. It has been growing there for about 8-9 years, planted tiny of course. This post-winter photo shows that it is practically unscathed.

Just for context, this is the equivalent to growing CIDP and Washingtonia this far north unprotected and having them come through multiple winters, as those ones have done now.

 

When I talk about the 'small' plantings, this is a prime example up at 55N at the top of northern Ireland, which is still part of the UK. A tiny little CIDP seedling was planted around 2008-2009 and can be seen again in the 2021 update when it is a fair deal bigger. Obviously the growth is nowhere near as quick as London and the south coast, given that is way high up at 55N, but it also shows that they are long term at that latitude in the UK. That tiny one would have come through the horrific 2010 winter at that size as well, which saw the coldest December on record. So these CIDP's and Washies are only going to keep getting bigger there. 

Edited March 30, 2023 by UK_Palms

[Little Tex]

nice

[Arecaceus]

I'm really glad how calm and friendly this has gotten. 🌴☀️

[Arecaceus]

6 hours ago, MarcusH said:

I didn't want to make you feel like you can't grow any palm in Germany . From my observation I didn't see any palms planted in the ground which made me believe there can't be palms successfully grown but apparently,  and you showed proof , there are pockets of zones where certain type of palms can be grown . I apologize if I doubted your comments.  

It's all good. This was not my issue. I don't have any issues with doubting or commenting. As long as we all stay respectful and friendly we all can discuss things in a productive manner.

[MarcusH]

Robusta growing strong as well as my Syagrus Romanzoffiana.  Freeze damages are almost history.  

[Arecaceus]

4 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

Robusta growing strong as well as my Syagrus Romanzoffiana.  Freeze damages are almost history.  

Robusta is looking great! 👌

[__nevii]

On 3/29/2023 at 6:30 PM, NBTX11 said:

To be honest, San Antonio's main comparison is the Florida panhandle, while Houston's is Jacksonville, Florida.  The areas are virtually identical palm wise.

London needs to do a comparison thread with Brookings Oregon or Victoria BC.  

In general, yeah. Meanwhile, Corpus/Laredo would then approximate somewhere in northern Central Florida (i.e. Ocala, Daytona), while McAllen/Brownville/SPI is pretty much down the peninsula to right on the I-4 line (more or less).

As for London, places in Oceania like New Zealand or Tasmania could also work as comparison.

Edited March 31, 2023 by __nevii

[__nevii]

On 3/28/2023 at 5:50 PM, Xenon said:

No, Texas summers destroy them and everything else from the high Andes or some tempeate oceanic island. It's akin to asking if there are royals and coconuts in the UK 🙂

Maybe someone in the UK can try a ceroxylon? 🥰

Edited March 31, 2023 by __nevii

[Axel Amsterdam]

Some rare palm species in inland UK after this winter. Trachycarpus martianus, trachycarpus latisectus and a nice brahea calcarea.

All these rare palms had a construction with a roof. The trachycarpus look like they will survive, the brahea is untouched.

Edited March 31, 2023 by Axel Amsterdam

[Foxpalms]

5 hours ago, __nevii said:

Maybe someone in the UK can try a ceroxylon? 🥰

Yes but they are so hard to find for sale. I'm currently trying to Germinate some seeds.

[MarcusH]

11 hours ago, Hortulanus said:

Robusta is looking great! 👌

They recover quite quickly.  The Queen takes its time .

[UK_Palms]

6 hours ago, __nevii said:

Maybe someone in the UK can try a ceroxylon? 🥰

The biggest Ceroxylon that I know of in the UK is growing in Falmouth, Cornwall. Unfortunately, I missed this one on my travels last summer. It was grown from seed I believe and has never been protected there. It barely gets any sunlight either in the spot its in and has been growing there for about a decade or so now. Given that it is still fairly small, it would suggest that Ceroxylon is long term here in the milder parts of southern England, if it isn’t actually taking damage, even during ‘bad’ winters. Another big win for the fast growing UK crownshaft scene.

 

The Rhopalostylis has also come through winter unscathed there as well. This is significant, since it was the worst winter in 12-13 years for southern England. There is going to be large and rapid increase in the number of these in southern England over the next few years. They clearly grow and survive, but haven’t been planted properly yet. The Isles of Scilly already have the largest Rhopalostylis stand/habitat outside of New Zealand. This one is in Falmouth on the mainland. The photo is from a month or two ago. It seems it pushes spears throughout winter still at 50/51N.

 

Post-winter shots of the Syagrus Romanzoffiana in Falmouth. It doesn’t look too bad at all, given this was the worst winter since 2010. Let’s hope it can get some decent growth going this year.

 

I already posted about the Parajubaea Cocoides (mountain coconut) coming through winter undamaged. These are are post winter shots. Again, it’s on the UK mainland.

 

The Mule Palm doesn’t look too bad at all either. Never protected once there. This is another species that is going to become more and more widespread in London and the south coast in the coming years.

 

2023 is going to be a massive year for the UK palm scene. Things are moving so rapidly. I will visit Kent this spring to check out an array of palms and I will also travel to the Isle of Wight in August. Exciting times.

[jwitt]

Far N. Central Texas.  Clouds are way more common than central NM.  For days and even weeks at a time. So is rain, hence the green.  Beyond rain,  huge difference is the solar load.  Easily measured on a dashboard with a touch. 

No shadows in Texas today, but heat coming.......just wait 48 hrs.

And those palms that used to be here.....well ......

 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2023 by jwitt

[DreaminAboutPalms]

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/75355-before-palmagaeddon-austin-tx-edition/

 

what central Texas looked like pre 2021 and hopefully will again in 25 years

Edited March 31, 2023 by DreaminAboutPalms

[fr8train]

37 minutes ago, DreaminAboutPalms said:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/75355-before-palmagaeddon-austin-tx-edition/

 

what central Texas looked like pre 2021 and hopefully will again in 25 years

Damn

Those date palms looked great 

[UK_Palms]

8 hours ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Some rare palm species in inland UK after this winter. Trachycarpus martianus, trachycarpus latisectus and a nice brahea calcarea.

All these rare palms had a construction with a roof. The trachycarpus look like they will survive, the brahea is untouched.

He has a Juania Australis growing there as well too. While he protected it this winter just gone, as to not take any chances, I am pretty sure it was not protected at all during the previous few winters. That area is nearly 100 miles inland as well. This must be the furthest planted out crownshaft from the equator in the world at nearly 53N.

No doubt they will survive and grow along the entire coastline of England, Wales and Ireland if CIDP & Washingtonia are growing there, plus the fact Juania are growing this far inland too. He had 40C / 104F there last year as well, so it can handle quite a bit of heat, contrary to reports. These are post winter photos from this week.

 

There is also a huge Jubaea growing not too far away as well, which is also over 100 miles inland. It has been there for well over a decade now and survived the record cold in 2010. The UK is becoming a bit of a palm fortress these days. There are way more northern and inland specimens than first thought. There is probably lots more lurking out there.

Edited March 31, 2023 by UK_Palms

[Foxpalms]

2 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

He has a Juania Australis growing there as well too. While he protected it this winter just gone, as to not take any chances, I am pretty sure it was not protected at all during the previous few winters. That area is nearly 100 miles inland as well. This must be the furthest planted out crownshaft from the equator in the world at nearly 53N.

No doubt they will survive and grow along the entire coastline of England, Wales and Ireland if CIDP & Washingtonia are growing there, plus the fact Juania are growing this far inland too. He had 40C / 104F there last year as well, so it can handle quite a bit of heat, contrary to reports. These are post winter photos from this week.

 

There is also a huge Jubaea growing not too far away as well, which is also over 100 miles inland. It has been there for well over a decade now and survived the record cold in 2010. The UK is becoming a bit of a palm fortress these days. There are way more northern and inland specimens than first thought. There is probably lots more lurking out there.

Can't remember where it was posted, but someone posted photos of a chamedorea elegans growing at 53N in the UK.

[Xerarch]

Next up, don’t miss next big thread topic, Austin TX vs Jakarta Indonesia, who has better palms? 🤣

[Axel Amsterdam]

1 hour ago, Foxpalms said:

Can't remember where it was posted, but someone posted photos of a chamedorea elegans growing at 53N in the UK.

i have only seen a picture of a small elegans  in Holland that survived this winter. If you remember i would love to see the pic. These housepalms seem thougher than previously thought. 

[Foxpalms]

17 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

i have only seen a picture of a small elegans  in Holland that survived this winter. If you remember i would love to see the pic. These housepalms seem thougher than previously thought. 

I know it was on one of the Facebook groups, but I can't remember which one. I also have some outside. Mine never get damaged from the cold, just some sunburn during the summer.

[Arecaceus]

10 hours ago, Foxpalms said:

Yes but they are so hard to find for sale. I'm currently trying to Germinate some seeds.

I had some seed grown parvifrons they all dried out because of dry air/sun. They are very heat and sun sensitive. Even at our latitude.

[UK_Palms]

I wonder how the Abbotsbury Archontophoenix is doing after this winter. They aren't right on the coast and maybe 1-2 miles inland. There is a Caryota planted out there as well. This isn't even in Cornwall or anything. They've got a Mule there too. A ton of other exotics too, including various Syagrus hybrids and obviously CIDP.

 

I think I am going to try and visit this place sometime this year hopefully. Fingers crossed most of the stuff made it through the winter okay.

[Little Tex]

2 hours ago, Xerarch said:

Next up, don’t miss next big thread topic, Austin TX vs Jakarta Indonesia, who has better palms? 🤣

Stay tuned for Dallas vs Seychelles!

[DreaminAboutPalms]

Dallas Washingtonia at an apartment complex in 2020 

[jwitt]

Idle Texas palm trimmers.....

[Foxpalms]

12 minutes ago, jwitt said:

Idle Texas palm trimmers.....

I wonder how something like this gets pruned. A very tall Washingtonia robusta, there's at least another 7ft-10ft of trunk that couldn't fit in the photo.

Edited March 31, 2023 by Foxpalms