Sabal mexicana in Baton Rouge, Louisiana

[GoatLockerGuns]

Surprise find in Baton Rouge.  Mature Sabal mexicana planting behind Parrain's Seafood Restaurant.

[Las Palmas Norte]

Would these not typically be grown in Baton Rouge, therefore the surprise? They look pretty fine.

[GoatLockerGuns]

4 hours ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

Would these not typically be grown in Baton Rouge, therefore the surprise?

First ones I have seen there (therefore, the surprise). I have seen a lot of Sabal palmetto and Sabal minor there, but not Sabal mexicana.  Admittedly, I was only passing through; therefore, they could be growing all over the place, and I just do not know about it. Have you seen them growing in other places around Baton Rouge?

[mnorell]

There are some around the region...when I lived in Natchez, Mississippi (about 75 miles north of Baton Rouge), I planted a line of Sabal Mexicana along one side of our courtyard, and they are there to this day I believe. I bought mine from Stine Hardware in Natchez around 2005, they had a lot of them in five gallon size at the time, and I am 99% sure they were grown by Greenleaf Nursery Co. in Texas. So I'm sure Greenleaf was pushing them throughout the region at that time, and Stine has locations all over southern Louisiana and also some in southern Mississippi, which would give a pretty broad net to cast in terms of spreading this species around. I'm sure also that Clegg's or Louisiana Nursery in Baton Rouge have offered them at one time or another over the years. So it's not really outlandish at all that you would run into some occasionally, even though S. palmetto is no doubt the more commonly sold species in Louisiana and Mississippi.

[GoatLockerGuns]

5 hours ago, mnorell said:

So it's not really outlandish at all that you would run into some occasionally, even though S. palmetto is no doubt the more commonly sold species in Louisiana and Mississippi.

Concur. I suspected some Palmtalkers or other palm enthusiasts had planted some in the area over the years. I was just was not expecting to see a large group of mature ones there when I walked out of the restaraunt.  As a Sabal spp. palm enthusiasts myself, they caught my eye immediately. I had to walked over and check the seeds just to be sure.

Commercial/municipal plantings of Sabal mexicana are fairly common in Texas (more so after February 2021), but there is still a good mixture of both Sabal mexicana and Sabal palmetto planted in the commercial and municipal spheres. I have traveled the I-10 corridor many times over the years. Typically, the tall Sabal spp. that I see east of Houston are all Sabal palmetto (with a few exceptions, like DeFuniak Springs and some suspect specimens in Lake Charles that may or may not be Sabal palmetto).

[Las Palmas Norte]

Not knowing the the difference between palmetto and mexicana, I can't see the diversity.

[GoatLockerGuns]

2 hours ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

Not knowing the the difference between palmetto and mexicana, I can't see the diversity

Usually, Sabal mexicana have larger, more spread out crowns, and thicker trunks. They also have big ass seeds (much larger than Sabal palmetto).

[mnorell]

I think to the casual observer (and let's face it, most "casual" observers are not very observant!) a palm is a palm, and especially a fan palm is a fan palm. The slightly more observant might notice the difference of course, between a Trachycarpus fortunei and a Sabal causiarum...It's nice, though, to know that at least some landscape architects or designers--in a region not usually very concerned with incorporating palms into planting plans--rise above a fixation on their beloved hardscapes, and actually try to incorporate some unusual species that cast a subtly different psychological effect than do the more ubiquitous species commonly spec'd. Sabal palmetto is easily sourced in just about any size, so you can't blame them too much under the duress of budget constraints and deadlines, etc., to go with the easy "sure" materials.

[Axel Amsterdam]

A different climate but would you say this sabal in the center of Paris is mexicana or palmetto? The label says palmetto but the palm seems to have a spread as big as the ones in the original post.

Edited February 1 by Axel Amsterdam

[Axel Amsterdam]

Older picture, it’s pretty slow but doing well in Paris. There are minors and brahea armata next to it.

Edited February 1 by Axel Amsterdam

[Xenon]

12 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

A different climate but would you say this sabal in the center of Paris is mexicana or palmetto? The label says palmetto but the palm seems to have a spread as big as the ones in the original post.

 

Looks like a stretched out palmetto imo. Mexicana has a more robust look

 

[ryjohn]

The one in Paris definitely looks like a palmetto.  Mexicana is 2x larger palm in all dimensions.  I have two up here in far northeast Louisiana that are massive.  Sabals thrive here like no other palms

Edited February 1 by ryjohn

[Axel Amsterdam]

Oh i see this palm has been ID’t before, sorry. Thanks for the confirmation it’s palmetto. It is very rarely we can see a sabal in this part of the world, the fact that it is one of the very few palms planted in Paris makes it even more unique. 

[Little Tex]

6 hours ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Oh i see this palm has been ID’t before, sorry. Thanks for the confirmation it’s palmetto. It is very rarely we can see a sabal in this part of the world, the fact that it is one of the very few palms planted in Paris makes it even more unique. 

I agree, sabals are so under-rated in international landscapes, besides where they are native of course, even from the times ive been to california ive never seen a sabal there.

[GoatLockerGuns]

11 hours ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

The label says palmetto but the palm seems to have a spread as big as the ones in the original post.

Many Sabal palmetto in West Florida have that sort of "spread out" crown.  Could be shade grown conditions, genetics, who knows. Scott Zona reported diverse morphology across many Sabal palmetto in different native environments. The real determinant (at least for me) is seed size.  If that specimen produces inflorescence, then I would clean the fruits and check the seed size.  For non-tropical localities: if they have large (over 9 or 10 mm in diameter) and somewhat flattened seeds, then they are probably Sabal mexicana.  Sabal palmetto seeds are typically 4 mm in diameter or smaller, and are more spherical.  Some tropical Sabal spp. have large seeds as well, but you would probably not find those in Paris.  Also, the alleged Sabal sp. 'Riverside' supposedly has large seeds and may be cold hardy enough for Paris; however, it is not a recognized species or variety, and its origin is not 100% clear (as I understand it).

[SeanK]

On 1/30/2023 at 12:57 PM, mnorell said:

I think to the casual observer (and let's face it, most "casual" observers are not very observant!) a palm is a palm, and especially a fan palm is a fan palm. The slightly more observant might notice the difference of course, between a Trachycarpus fortunei and a Sabal causiarum...It's nice, though, to know that at least some landscape architects or designers--in a region not usually very concerned with incorporating palms into planting plans--rise above a fixation on their beloved hardscapes, and actually try to incorporate some unusual species that cast a subtly different psychological effect than do the more ubiquitous species commonly spec'd. Sabal palmetto is easily sourced in just about any size, so you can't blame them too much under the duress of budget constraints and deadlines, etc., to go with the easy "sure" materials.

I think the casual observer can distinguish between Trachycarpus and Sabal. Probably not between two 20-foot palms - one Sabal the other Washingtonia.  Between Trachycarpus, Thrinac and Trithrinax your neighbors see no differences.

[GoatLockerGuns]

23 hours ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

Many Sabal palmetto in West Florida have that sort of "spread out" crown.

Here are some examples of that "spread out" Sabal palmetto crown look I was referring to.  These pictures were taken this morning at Hurlburt Field, Florida.  Growing in the shade as pine forest under-story.

[KsLouisiana]

In Lake Charles Louisiana 2 hours west of Baton Rouge there are palmetto trees all around the city in landscapes and growing wild but I only know of a couple Mexicana growing at "southbeach volleyball club" I'll get some pics

Edited February 8 by KsLouisiana
Misspell

[GoatLockerGuns]

On 2/7/2023 at 6:01 PM, KsLouisiana said:

In Lake Charles Louisiana 2 hours west of Baton Rouge there are palmetto trees all around the city in landscapes and growing wild but I only know of a couple Mexicana growing at "southbeach volleyball club" I'll get some pics

The naturalized Lake Charles Sabal palmettos continue to keep coming up in discussions.  If you look close while traveling on I-10, you can even spot some in the wood off the north side of the freeway on the east side of the Lake Charles Bridge.  Here is a Palmtalk thread about them (one of many I presume):

The reason they are so interesting, as I understand it, is because the natural range of Sabal palmetto (as reported by Zona 1990) is West Florida.  It has also been inferred that Sabal palmetto do not naturalize/produce volunteers outside of their natural range (which makes no sense to me).  While the Sabal palmetto specimens in the woods around Lake Charles have not definitively been determined to be part of the native range (there are some Sabal palmettos planted at the park nearby that are clearly landscape plantings), these specimens where most likely not intentionally planted either.  Meaning, at the very least, there is documentation of them naturalizing/producing volunteers outside of their native range.  I have personally found many examples of Sabal palmetto naturalizing outside their native range, so I already knew this from my own anecdotal observations.  For example, I have found areas around landscaped Sabal palmetto specimens in the Galveston and Houston areas that where littered with volunteers.

[GoatLockerGuns]

On 2/9/2023 at 12:59 PM, GoatLockerGuns said:

I have found areas around landscaped Sabal palmetto specimens in the Galveston and Houston areas that where littered with volunteers.

Here are some examples.  These pictures were taken in West Houston.  Sabal palmetto volunteers are mixed in with the blades of grass around this palm.

[Xenon]

I-10/Katy Freeway medians and the freeway adjacent parking lots around Katy/west Houston are littered with volunteer Sabal from the abundant seeding S. palmetto and S. mexicana found in the strip malls and apartments along the interstate. Not talking little strap leaf things but several year old palms and even some that should start trunking soon. TXDOT is definitely keeping the larger volunteers as the palms have been there for years. Seems like whatever gets big enough to look like a palm and survives the mowing is kept...

 

 

[Sabal_Louisiana]

I see quite a few Sabal palmetto volunteers around urban areas and elsewhere across SE Louisiana.

These guys started from seed that was probably blown by the wind from a nearby plant nursery in the Gonzales area.  I've seen them grow to this size in just the past decade or so.

Edited February 24 by Sabal_Louisiana

[Sabal King]

Truly Sabals are just incredibly underappreciated.  These are rockstars.  Beautiful pictures, thank you!