Why are palms so infrequent in San Antonio? And in a lot of Texas in general?

[Ivanos1982]

Xenon I have seen that too but I don't have hope. We are barely in November and the cold blasts are already taking ground all over Texas. We are not far from another Feb 2021 freeze or even worse. Hopefully I'm wrong. If I'm not, these new palm plantings will be wiped AGAIN.

[Xenon]

2 hours ago, Ivanos1982 said:

Xenon I have seen that too but I don't have hope. We are barely in November and the cold blasts are already taking ground all over Texas. We are not far from another Feb 2021 freeze or even worse. Hopefully I'm wrong. If I'm not, these new palm plantings will be wiped AGAIN.

That's quite a pessimistic take, some of Houston hasn't even seen below 40F and nothing below 35F most elsewhere. I was up north on Sunday in Spring/Klein and couldn't find any signs of frost damage. Hobby Area looked very palmy today. 

Don't worry, it'll warm up again for Thanksgiving 😛

[D Palm]

I think it’s more cultural/social. SC has a palmetto on its flag. Florida and California, palms come to the average persons mind. If I resided in the warmer parts of Texas, I would probably have a couple of sabals around the pool.

[JohnAndSancho]

No nuts no glory. 

[PalmTreeDude]

On 11/15/2022 at 11:20 PM, D Palm said:

I think it’s more cultural/social. SC has a palmetto on its flag. Florida and California, palms come to the average persons mind. If I resided in the warmer parts of Texas, I would probably have a couple of sabals around the pool.

I agree that the cultural/social aspect of palms in an area has a huge influence on them being planted. Redding, California (and a lot of areas in Northern California) seem to have a ton of palms, but they’re not even the main area that people think of when they think California. But I’m pretty sure the reason a lot of those places are palmy is because people think California = palms, so why not plant some! Same with South Carolina, when you cross over into North Carolina, the number of palms seems to go down drastically (endless you are by the coastline) even though they are fully capable of growing there. 

Edited November 17, 2022 by PalmTreeDude

[Meangreen94z]

On 9/22/2022 at 7:38 AM, James B said:

The heat in Texas isn’t it. Where I live in Rancho Cucamonga Ca we generally have over 20-25 days over 100 and 10-15 days over 105-110 each summer and we have quite a bit of palms in our landscapes.

The polar vortex that wipes out 90% of the palms in Texas every 10 years is the reason why.

We had a guy here on PT who was doing a lot of zone pushing growing tropical stuff in Southern Texas who was adamant if happened to him and he lost his sensitive palms he would replant them all over again but he hasn’t posted since the Palmagedden. Which is unfortunate to see but it can be really tough watching your palms get killed by cold events.

I think some of those members have just drifted from the website. Oliver’s collection at his house and office were probably the most well known on this site. He posted (page 8 ) after the freeze most of his collection; Dypsis, Copernicia , Tahina, etc. were showing life.

I took a walk in downtown Brownsville a couple months ago and it looked like over half the Royals had survived in that microclimate . Obviously the majority of Washingtonia and Sabal did well.

 

[MarcusH]

Not everyone likes palms. I know a lot of people here in San Antonio who don't care for them.  From my observation Sabal mexicana and palmetto gain popularity.  Now after 2 severe freezes within 2 years I assume people are more hesitant to plant palms.  Today I saw a business on the Southside that had the guts to plant 4 foxtails.  People should stick with Sabals and Washingtonia Filifera, Filibustas , Pindos . Best palms for San Antonio.  

[Robert Cade Ross]

On 7/27/2023 at 10:28 PM, MarcusH said:

Not everyone likes palms. I know a lot of people here in San Antonio who don't care for them.  From my observation Sabal mexicana and palmetto gain popularity.  Now after 2 severe freezes within 2 years I assume people are more hesitant to plant palms.  Today I saw a business on the Southside that had the guts to plant 4 foxtails.  People should stick with Sabals and Washingtonia Filifera, Filibustas , Pindos . Best palms for San Antonio.  

That won’t end well lol 

[MarcusH]

59 minutes ago, Cade said:

That won’t end well lol 

Absolutely not and I don't think it's the business owners fault . Little did I know when I bought and planted my first palms . I learned a lot from members in this forum.  Just because the big box stores sell all kinds of palms doesn't mean they're cold hardy in your area.  I would be surprised if the foxtails make it through their first winter.  

[Palmfarmer]

1 hour ago, MarcusH said:

Absolutely not and I don't think it's the business owners fault . Little did I know when I bought and planted my first palms . I learned a lot from members in this forum.  Just because the big box stores sell all kinds of palms doesn't mean they're cold hardy in your area.  I would be surprised if the foxtails make it through their first winter.  

A thought San Antonio was pretty mild in winter except for the big freezes every 10 years.  

[Robert Cade Ross]

18 minutes ago, Palmfarmer said:

A thought San Antonio was pretty mild in winter except for the big freezes every 10 years.  

Those foxes will die even in San Antonio’s warmest winter they likely would still perish:( 

[Robert Cade Ross]

30 minutes ago, Palmfarmer said:

A thought San Antonio was pretty mild in winter except for the big freezes every 10 years.  

It’s zone 8B with the occasional 9A winter 

[MarcusH]

22 hours ago, Cade said:

It’s zone 8B with the occasional 9A winter 

Not quite right.  Most parts of San Antonio are in zone 9a just the north / northeast side outside of loop 410 is classified as 8b . According to a long term resident there were many 20 to 30 ft Queen palms prior to Feb 2021 in San Antonio.  I agree the Foxtails won't have no chance to survive long term probably get killed by the cold within the next few years . We don't know how our winters are going to be the next 10 years so far the winters in the last few years have been absolutely devastating for zone pushed palms. 

[MarcusH]

22 hours ago, Palmfarmer said:

A thought San Antonio was pretty mild in winter except for the big freezes every 10 years.  

Winters are very similar to Houston in fact ours are even a bit milder and less wet but the infrequent artic winters ruin the fun of growing zone pushed palms.  Most parts of San Antonio are in zone 9a. Some suburbs outside of loop 410 are in 8b especially the northern region . 

[Xenon]

1 hour ago, MarcusH said:

Winters are very similar to Houston in fact ours are even a bit milder and less wet but the infrequent artic winters ruin the fun of growing zone pushed palms.  Most parts of San Antonio are in zone 9a. Some suburbs outside of loop 410 are in 8b especially the northern region . 

Houston is warmer both by averages and by absolute minimums, by a significant margin. Loop 610 in Houston runs 5 degrees or more warmer on a cold night compared to Loop 410. The warmer third of Houston is much milder (1/2 zone +/-) than anything in San Antonio but that's to be expected due to the much larger urban heat island and the moderating effect of Galveston Bay and the Gulf. 

Yes, San Antonio had a few queen palms here and there. Houston had thousands+, there's really no comparison from what I've seen. 

The last time I was in San Antonio was New Year's Day 2021, had no idea the mega freeze was coming soon haha.  Always liked seeing the unusual stuff along the Riverwalk. 

Here's a pic for the thread: Mule palm at the Riverwalk (1/1/2021)

[MarcusH]

15 hours ago, Xenon said:

Houston is warmer both by averages and by absolute minimums, by a significant margin. Loop 610 in Houston runs 5 degrees or more warmer on a cold night compared to Loop 410. The warmer third of Houston is much milder (1/2 zone +/-) than anything in San Antonio but that's to be expected due to the much larger urban heat island and the moderating effect of Galveston Bay and the Gulf. 

Yes, San Antonio had a few queen palms here and there. Houston had thousands+, there's really no comparison from what I've seen. 

The last time I was in San Antonio was New Year's Day 2021, had no idea the mega freeze was coming soon haha.  Always liked seeing the unusual stuff along the Riverwalk. 

Here's a pic for the thread: Mule palm at the Riverwalk (1/1/2021)

I don't have a temperature chart in front of me but San Antonio gets a lot of 9b winters.  Well long story short even with Houston being warmer in the winter pretty much all of the zone pushed palms got killed in 2021 incl. Robustas so down the road it doesn't matter if you get a few more years of milder weather the next palmaggedon will come . 

[Xenon]

1 hour ago, MarcusH said:

I don't have a temperature chart in front of me but San Antonio gets a lot of 9b winters.  Well long story short even with Houston being warmer in the winter pretty much all of the zone pushed palms got killed in 2021 incl. Robustas so down the road it doesn't matter if you get a few more years of milder weather the next palmaggedon will come . 

Plenty of robusta left in central and south Houston. It's the only thing separating Houston from the surrounding area. It was "only 15-16F" compared to 9-10F in San Antonio. I'm not downplaying San Antonio, it does get many 9b winters but Houston gets 10a winters and is sometimes zone 10 for 2 or 3 back to back winters. It's not a small difference. Some parts of the urban core can go many years without a freeze.

The big queen killer in SA were the back to back freezes of 2010 and 2011. Houston did not see the same level of die off being a few degrees warmer. 

Edited August 4, 2023 by Xenon

[MarcusH]

4 hours ago, Xenon said:

Plenty of robusta left in central and south Houston. It's the only thing separating Houston from the surrounding area. It was "only 15-16F" compared to 9-10F in San Antonio. I'm not downplaying San Antonio, it does get many 9b winters but Houston gets 10a winters and is sometimes zone 10 for 2 or 3 back to back winters. It's not a small difference. Some parts of the urban core can go many years without a freeze.

The big queen killer in SA were the back to back freezes of 2010 and 2011. Houston did not see the same level of die off being a few degrees warmer. 

Let's face the reality . Texas isn't Florida even we share the same zones but the arctic blast are alot more severe here than anywhere else close to that state. Texas isn't a zone push friendly state unless you live at the Mexican border like the RGV.  Well NBTX11 said there were many Queen surivorvs prior to the big freeze in 2021 and when I was here in 2019 I actually saw a lot of Queens too.  It's not a competition even Houston has some advantages over SA when it comes to winter temperatures it nearly suffered the same damage as SA. When I went to Houston few months back I still see a lot of dead Robustas . Not much different from here to be honest.  

[Robert Cade Ross]

23 hours ago, Xenon said:

Houston is warmer both by averages and by absolute minimums, by a significant margin. Loop 610 in Houston runs 5 degrees or more warmer on a cold night compared to Loop 410. The warmer third of Houston is much milder (1/2 zone +/-) than anything in San Antonio but that's to be expected due to the much larger urban heat island and the moderating effect of Galveston Bay and the Gulf. 

Yes, San Antonio had a few queen palms here and there. Houston had thousands+, there's really no comparison from what I've seen. 

The last time I was in San Antonio was New Year's Day 2021, had no idea the mega freeze was coming soon haha.  Always liked seeing the unusual stuff along the Riverwalk. 

Here's a pic for the thread: Mule palm at the Riverwalk (1/1/2021)

Rip

[Xenon]

6 hours ago, MarcusH said:

Let's face the reality . Texas isn't Florida even we share the same zones but the arctic blast are alot more severe here than anywhere else close to that state. Texas isn't a zone push friendly state unless you live at the Mexican border like the RGV.  Well NBTX11 said there were many Queen surivorvs prior to the big freeze in 2021 and when I was here in 2019 I actually saw a lot of Queens too.  It's not a competition even Houston has some advantages over SA when it comes to winter temperatures it nearly suffered the same damage as SA. When I went to Houston few months back I still see a lot of dead Robustas . Not much different from here to be honest.  

Reality is all of north Florida and southern Georgia is prone to the same severe arctic blasts as our area...so it's time to get over the defeatist attitude and start planting! Not a zone push friendly state? Not true at all...20 year old royals in Galveston, 10+ year old foxtails in Houston, 20+ year old pygmy dates in Houston, 10 year old Bismarckia in San Antonio...all sounds very successful to me, the very definiton of a zone push is that it's somewhat of an ephemeral unicorn 😛

It's easy to complain about the past but I'd rather not die of FOMO when 10, 20, 30+ years later there's still no "palmaggedon" repeat 

Here's a Houston royal circa 2009 for inspiration, it was planted below fence height and reached the photo height after 5-6 winters. Bit extreme yes...I'll settle for queens everywhere

On 2/21/2021 at 10:34 PM, NBTX11 said:

I hope you're not making a decision on a one time 50 year cold event.  Houston is really, really mild a vast, vast majority of the time.  In fact, it is a BETTER palm growing area than any area in the Florida Panhandle, and is on par with Jacksonville.  Really, no joke. 

Look up the 1985 freeze that hit north Florida.  Jacksonville dropped to 9 degrees, I believe, while inland southern Georgia dropped to zero.  A couple of locations dropped to -1 or -2.  Houston didn't get anywhere near 9 degrees, even in this brutal event.  I think the low in Houston was around 13-16 depending on where you were at.   By the way in the 1985 freeze where Jacksonville dropped to 9, Houston only dropped to 20.

As far as the idea that Houston doesn't have a huge numbers of palms, have you ever been to Houston.  Parts of Houston have HUGE amounts of palms.  On the north side or town, I would slightly agree with you, in the fact that there are just so many pine trees, you can't hardly see anything other than pines.  But other areas more south have thousands of palms.  Houston is a very palmy city.

In short, don't make any judgement off a 30-50 year freeze.  That same freeze could head to the Florida panhandle or the SE US next time (like it did in 1985).  

 

[MarcusH]

6 hours ago, Xenon said:

Reality is all of north Florida and southern Georgia is prone to the same severe arctic blasts as our area...so it's time to get over the defeatist attitude and start planting! Not a zone push friendly state? Not true at all...20 year old royals in Galveston, 10+ year old foxtails in Houston, 20+ year old pygmy dates in Houston, 10 year old Bismarckia in San Antonio...all sounds very successful to me, the very definiton of a zone push is that it's somewhat of an ephemeral unicorn 😛

It's easy to complain about the past but I'd rather not die of FOMO when 10, 20, 30+ years later there's still no "palmaggedon" repeat 

Here's a Houston royal circa 2009 for inspiration, it was planted below fence height and reached the photo height after 5-6 winters. Bit extreme yes...I'll settle for queens everywhere

 

Hey man I'm not saying people should stick with native palms I mean it would make things kind of boring I'm not trying to argue with you Jonathan you should know me better.  I personally think that it's just sad to see the more exotic palms to get wiped out by another artic blast again and you know Texas is known for its extreme weather in both directions.  I still see a lot of dead Robustas along Freeways,  Roads and private yards hands down it looks ugly .  The replanting of the same palms is already happening at full speed .  I have 2 Queen palm planted the one that survived in December just pushing out its 4th frond ( waiting on spear opening ) . The recovery process takes more than a half year on those palms .  We need at least 2 to 4 years of very mild winters to see beautiful crowns on our Queens.  I'm not sure how fast foxtails,  Royals recover.  With zone pushed palms it feels like you're constantly on high alert during winter times hoping it's not going to be extremely cold . 

[MarcusH]

6 hours ago, Xenon said:

Reality is all of north Florida and southern Georgia is prone to the same severe arctic blasts as our area...so it's time to get over the defeatist attitude and start planting! Not a zone push friendly state? Not true at all...20 year old royals in Galveston, 10+ year old foxtails in Houston, 20+ year old pygmy dates in Houston, 10 year old Bismarckia in San Antonio...all sounds very successful to me, the very definiton of a zone push is that it's somewhat of an ephemeral unicorn 😛

It's easy to complain about the past but I'd rather not die of FOMO when 10, 20, 30+ years later there's still no "palmaggedon" repeat 

Here's a Houston royal circa 2009 for inspiration, it was planted below fence height and reached the photo height after 5-6 winters. Bit extreme yes...I'll settle for queens everywhere

 

Here's my surivivor.  Recovered well 

[Xenon]

32 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

With zone pushed palms it feels like you're constantly on high alert during winter times hoping it's not going to be extremely cold . 

That's half of the thrill (or anxiety?) 😂

It'll be worth it! And if it dies....time to try again hahaha. I've planted through all of the biggest freezes of the last 20+ years....and have no intentions of ever joining  the "only plant Sabal" camp. 

[MarcusH]

41 minutes ago, Xenon said:

That's half of the thrill (or anxiety?) 😂

It'll be worth it! And if it dies....time to try again hahaha. I've planted through all of the biggest freezes of the last 20+ years....and have no intentions of ever joining  the "only plant Sabal" camp. 

Lol yes that's true . Like people in Florida have their faces glued to the TV during hurricane season and hope it's not going to hit their home.  Let's hope for some milder winters.  Queens are pretty cheap so next time I'm going to spend 60 bucks and get an 8 footer at HD . 

[fr8train]

6 hours ago, Xenon said:

That's half of the thrill (or anxiety?) 😂

It'll be worth it! And if it dies....time to try again hahaha. I've planted through all of the biggest freezes of the last 20+ years....and have no intentions of ever joining  the "only plant Sabal" camp. 

I'm a fan of zone pushing and it's cool to see what people can do, so long as they realize what they're getting into. It's unfortunate, I think anyway, that people might be planting palms thinking they'll make it only to see them either die or defoliate every winter. I'd rather see Sabals everywhere than nothing at all, which to me look exotic even here. 

There's also a bit of rarer stuff you can grow that should always be hardy here, like armata, Trithrinax, blue Meds, blue uresana, Lisa, Nannorrhops, various Trachycarpus in addition to fortunei like wagneranius, princeps, maybe manipur. Add to that the palms that do burn but almost always survive like Phoenix canariensis, filifera dominate hybrids, casusarium, Butia,  Jubaea, maybe a lot more I'm not aware of and there's a lot to pick from. Then on top of that you can zone push, but if you only buy from big box stores, or even local nurseries, I think you'll end disappointed a lot of the time, unless this area gets back into a warm trend, but eventually there will be a big freeze, whether it's next winter, or 20 years from now. I think it would hurt even more to see 20 year old palms burn and die, but as an optimist someone might at least enjoy those 20 years.  

I wish Home Depot, Lowes and so on would stock more palms that are actually hardy here, as most people aren't going to do their research on palmtalk, they just buy what's in front of them, it burns, and they never plant again. Even at the Rim they've cut down all of the beautiful Phoenix canariensis, because after winter they weren't looking all that beautiful. So far there's nothing in their place. 

Edited August 5, 2023 by fr8train

[Xenon]

37 minutes ago, fr8train said:

I'm a fan of zone pushing and it's cool to see what people can do, so long as they realize what they're getting into. It's unfortunate, I think anyway, that people might be planting palms thinking they'll make it only to see them either die or defoliate every winter. I'd rather see Sabals everywhere than nothing at all, which to me look exotic even here. 

There's also a bit of rarer stuff you can grow that should always be hardy here, like armata, Trithrinax, blue Meds, blue uresana, Lisa, Nannorrhops, various Trachycarpus in addition to fortunei like wagneranius, princeps, maybe manipur. Add to that the palms that do burn but almost always survive like Phoenix canariensis, filifera dominate hybrids, casusarium, Butia,  Jubaea, maybe a lot more I'm not aware of and there's a lot to pick from. Then on top of that you can zone push, but if you only buy from big box stores, or even local nurseries, I think you'll end disappointed a lot of the time, unless this area gets back into a warm trend, but eventually there will be a big freeze, weather it's next winter, or 20 years from now. I think it would hurt even more to see 20 year old palms burn and die, but as an optimist someone might at least enjoy those 20 years.  

I wish Home Depot, Lowes and so on would stock more palms that are actually hardy here, as most people aren't going to do their research on here, they just buy what's in front of them, it burns, and they never plant again. Even at the Rim they've cut down all of the beautiful Phoenix canariensis, because after winter they weren't looking all that beautiful. So far there's nothing in their place. 

Agree, but there are also many different levels of "zone pushing". There are things that can survive a few years and things can survive a few decades...you can determine the level of risk you want to take, the tradeoff is a very limited palette! I don't believe in an ultimatum like "only things that survive 2021". I'm in the colder part of Houston and I've personally witnessed king and foxtail palms (extreme zone push) survive for 5 years just a few blocks from me; the queen palms (not really a zone push) I just took for granted as they were here as far back as I can remember. For my area I would 100% plant a queen before Phoenix canariensis, the queen will probably get big and beautiful while the CIDP is a ticking time bomb for lethal bronzing. Have yet to see even a mediocre TX  Jubaea and the Trachycarpus here usually die or look horrible 😆. Cold is just one variable and you gotta make compromises when other factors are invovled. 

Not a Sabal hater at all, but it's worth diversifying even if there is freeze risk imo. My S. guatemalensis and S. causiarium seem to be the only things thriving in this heat (currently 106F with a 75F dew point....) with only weekly watering (notice the dying lawns). Queen is growing like a weed too but gets daily water. 

Edited August 5, 2023 by Xenon

[cocoforcoconuts]

On 8/4/2023 at 10:23 PM, Xenon said:

Plenty of robusta left in central and south Houston. It's the only thing separating Houston from the surrounding area. It was "only 15-16F" compared to 9-10F in San Antonio. I'm not downplaying San Antonio, it does get many 9b winters but Houston gets 10a winters and is sometimes zone 10 for 2 or 3 back to back winters. It's not a small difference. Some parts of the urban core can go many years without a freeze.

The big queen killer in SA were the back to back freezes of 2010 and 2011. Houston did not see the same level of die off being a few degrees warmer. 

But there is a big difference between having sporadic 10A winters every few years and having an actual mean annual low that qualifies as zone 10. I'm all for zone pushing when it's the exceptional years you have to make provisions for in order to protect your plants, but the opposite just doesn't seem worth it to me beyond a pet project I'm super enthusiastic about.

Edited August 7, 2023 by cocoforcoconuts

[Xenon]

25 minutes ago, cocoforcoconuts said:

But there is a big difference between having sporadic 10A winters every few years and having an actual mean annual low that qualifies as zone 10. I'm all for zone pushing when it's the exceptional years you have to make provisions for in order to protect your plants, but the opposite just doesn't seem worth it to me beyond a pet project I'm super enthusiastic about.

No such claim was made. Fwiw, the mean annual low for most of Houston is 26-28F but I still call it "solid zone 9" or "zone 9a". The zone 10 winters happen about 50% of the time, that's why the average is so high. I don't classify growing queen palms in central or south Houston as a "zone push", one freeze in 30+ years doesn't change that imo. Just an occupational hazard of gardening in the south lol 

Now is it worthwhile to grow zone 10 stuff in Houston's warmest microclimates in the urban core and bay/coastal zones where the mean is 28-31F? Who knows, that's up to you. There are parts of Houston that never saw a hard freeze (<27F) at all from 1997-2009. I've seen foxtails and big fruiting mango trees survive for over a decade in the heat island. Stuff along the bay/coast was even more impressive. Seeing random unicorns like that hiding between magnolias and crepe myrtles is quite the sight! 

Edited August 7, 2023 by Xenon

[Really full garden]

I can speak for the Houston area . During the early years Houston was a malaria plagued village in the shadow of gleaming Galveston . After the massive hurricane that nearly obliterated Galveston a major effort was made to promote Houston as A safe and healthy place to live.

Remember this was long before A/C was possible. All PR was made to make Houston appear to be like the US North East. Palms were the last plants they wanted to use for this image. Palms were seen as symbols of a hot tropical environment. This bias existed for decades.

[MarcusH]

To reopen this threat again .  Even with our severe freezes we get once in a while there're many places in Texas where palms can be grown long term without protection . The reset button was pushed and what was left here in San Antonio are Sabals ( all varieties) Washingtonia Filifera, Filibusta,  some Robustas,  Pindo , Mediterranean , CIDP,  Windmill and some other cold hardy palms. It wasn't really a palmaggedon at all the only one  I saw struggling to survive was the Robusta here in SA . Sure the less hardy palms were wiped out completely such as Queens but it wasn't like they were planted all over SA .  

Now living here in TX for over 2 years I would say it's not the rare freezes that causes the infrequent planting of palms I guess it's just many people can’t grow palms because of HOA regulations in newer subdivisions. Just the coastal regions and RGV are places where you see more palms than trees.  I also guess it's the people here who don't care for anything.  Texas doesn't stick out for its beauty , cleaness,  colorful houses , up kept landscape,  neighborhoods and so on.  I'm not surprised after all why we don't see much palms.  In fact people here don't really mind the looks of some dead Robustas.  I'm not really trying to bash Texas but those are facts if you have been seeing other places outside of Texas especially myself who lived most of my life in Germany .  

[Xerarch]

14 hours ago, MarcusH said:

people here don't really mind the looks of some dead Robustas.  

Lol I've been wondering about that, even though the vast majority of robustas survived here in CC, there are still quite a few dead trunks around town and I guess nobody cares? At least the property owners must not because they just kinof leave them...forever....I guess.  There is a large, dead royal trunk in my neighborhood, it was so magnificent before.  That's not to say that there aren't quite a few that have been removed, it's just noticeable that so many have not.

[MarcusH]

2 hours ago, Xerarch said:

Lol I've been wondering about that, even though the vast majority of robustas survived here in CC, there are still quite a few dead trunks around town and I guess nobody cares? At least the property owners must not because they just kinof leave them...forever....I guess.  There is a large, dead royal trunk in my neighborhood, it was so magnificent before.  That's not to say that there aren't quite a few that have been removed, it's just noticeable that so many have not.

Each time I drive down our street I see a house that used to have 4 large Robustas . Now all I see are giant tooth picks . A house close from there had 3 Robustas.  Two died in 2021 and one died this year after a storm . All I see are tooth picks again. Get a chainsaw man . 

[fr8train]

The silver lining to those dead palms might be that thanks to that lack of quick removal many palms made it. I think in some neighborhoods, and other cities, like Austin, they chopped a lot of palms down that probably would have looked bad for a while but eventually recovered. That's what they did at The Rim with those nice Phoenix hybrids. Eventually they would have grown back.

[Palmfarmer]

 I saw someone mention the Bismarckia in San Antonia did that really survive? 

[amh]

I've lived in the S.A. metro since the late 80s, but I'll never understand the culture. A big issue here is that cold events are more frequent in the areas of population growth than Old San Antonio*. The area around SAC has been palmy for a long time, as well as the river walk and missions area, but these area have milder winters. Cold hardy palms are on a generational time scale, so generally expensive to purchase at trunking sizes. The older development areas generally have longer term owners and better, more diverse landscaping, while the late 90s and newer areas are a totally denuded land with nothing but crepe myrtles and nock-out roses added.

Think beyond next year, be the seeds of change and start growing palms for local dissemination. And bring back San Antonio's antique rose heritage too.

(*)includes older municipalities within 1604.

[Fusca]

On 12/17/2023 at 7:56 AM, Palmfarmer said:

 I saw someone mention the Bismarckia in San Antonia did that really survive? 

I had a Bismarckia survive February 2021 (9°F or -12°C) but I provided protection.

[Palmfarmer]

7 hours ago, Fusca said:

I had a Bismarckia survive February 2021 (9°F or -12°C) but I provided protection.

How big was it? I just remember a Bismarckia by the river in San Antonio. Anyone know if it survived? 

[fr8train]

On 12/17/2023 at 2:31 PM, amh said:

Cold hardy palms are on a generational time scale, so generally expensive to purchase at trunking sizes.

What do you mean by this?

[amh]

1 hour ago, fr8train said:

What do you mean by this?

A specimen sized sabal will be 20 to 30 years old minimum, so if someone wants instant gratification, it'll cost a lot of money. Most people will not live in a house long enough to see a seedling or small palm even begin to trunk.

 

[fr8train]

4 hours ago, amh said:

A specimen sized sabal will be 20 to 30 years old minimum, so if someone wants instant gratification, it'll cost a lot of money. Most people will not live in a house long enough to see a seedling or small palm even begin to trunk.

 

I see. I wonder how other parts of the country do it? California, Arizona, Florida. I wonder if filifera could be grown and planted more easily, since they grow much more quickly?

I think an issue here, because San Antonio is so much on the border of where palms can grow vs where they cannot grow, is that you have to really know what you're planting. It seems like aside from people on this forum, almost no one understands the difference between robusta, filifera, or a filibusta, at least not in a meaningful way. People plant palms that really can't make here long term and then get discouraged when they burn and die. It doesn't help that big box stores almost exclusively seem to stock these sort of palms. Robusta dominant hybrids and queen palms are almost all I ever see.