Struggling Sylvester

[Knot Work]

We had 2 Sylvester Palms installed approximately 2 years ago. They were both struggling at the beginning and I have treated both with the recommended treatments, had soil ph checked, etc. one is back and thriving, the other is starting to scare me as it doesn’t seem to be producing a new spear. I have treated the heart with copper just to be sure no bacteria or fungus had taken hold. The leaves surrounding the heart are still firm and not able to be pulled out. I am at a loss of what to do to try and save my tree. I will post pics for reference. As a note, the one that is doing poorly has always had the fronds standing straight up and not sweeping over like the healthier one. 

[Darold Petty]

Are you certain that these palms are correctly labeled ?   Phoenix palms are wind pollinated and are notoriously promiscuous.  The grower might have a whole field of true P. sylvester with an errant mongrel mixed within.  Your struggling one reminds me of P. dactylifera details, with the very stiff fronds, and the characteristic bumps on the trunk.  

[Knot Work]

15 minutes ago, Darold Petty said:

Are you certain that these palms are correctly labeled ?   Phoenix palms are wind pollinated and are notoriously promiscuous.  The grower might have a whole field of true P. sylvester with an errant mongrel mixed within.  Your struggling one reminds me of P. dactylifera details, with the very stiff fronds, and the characteristic bumps on the trunk. 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Knot Work
I don’t know what I’m doing.

[Knot Work]

Disregard my previous post. 

In all honesty they may not be what I was told they are. They both have the same exact trunk topography. Either way I would like to keep them alive and healthy. Any idea what they are in need of?

[Darold Petty]

Sorry, I don't have a clue what you should do.  

[NickJames]

1 hour ago, Knot Work said:

Disregard my previous post. 

In all honesty they may not be what I was told they are. They both have the same exact trunk topography. Either way I would like to keep them alive and healthy. Any idea what they are in need of?

I had a similar looking p. Sylvestris/hybrid at my Fernandina Beach house. Was installed once house was completed. By the time I sold it (2019), it looked like it was a goner. However, recent photos someone sent me show it now looks AMAZING. 
 

What is your fertilizing regiment? What does the ground around it look like?

[Knot Work]

I will take some pictures tomorrow and show what I have been using. 

[3 Milesfrom Gulf of Mexico]

Mulch around the trunk heavy..  Water 3 times s week.  

[Knot Work]

18 minutes ago, 3 Milesfrom Gulf of Mexico said:

Mulch around the trunk heavy..  Water 3 times s week.  

Even if they have been in the ground for 2 years? We got so much bad advice when we put them in about how much water they needed. Some said keep the soil moist. Some said water toll ground is totally saturated. Others said no water. They currently have rock in the beds they are in, but the rock is pulled back a foot from the base of the palms. 

[Knot Work]

Here is what I have been using on them. Instructions say once every 2 weeks. Local palm “specialist” said they looked to have a Boron deficiency. Probably need some type of long acting fertilizer as well. Also can’t spray the leaves as the instructions suggest as it is too close to house and driveway and it stains the crap out of everything. 

[Merlyn]

I'd agree with others, the one with straight leaves is probably a part-Dactylifera hybrid.  They tend to hold fronds very straight until you've got a full crown.  That only explains why one of them is more straight, and the other is more curved.  Both Sylvestris and Dactylifera should be hardy there, so one being a possible hybrid isn't important for how to solve the problem.  It might only matter because Dactylifera are more susceptible to fungal problems.

The curved leaf one looks pretty normal for a Sylvester, with good new spears and a bit of yellowing coming out of winter.  If anything I'd just switch to a timed-release granular fertilizer like PalmGain.  I have been using mostly generic Vigoro 8-4-8 or Sunniland 6-1-8 on my palms and cycads, and everything is growing great in my jungle.  But they may not have an "ideal" mix of nutrients.  If you only have two or three palms then PalmGain is a good choice from a price-performance perspective. 

The struggling straight-frond one honestly doesn't look like a boron issue.  I don't see any fused tips, hooked tips, accordion leaf, or spears refusing to open.  Sometimes a boron deficiency is just curled and dead leaflet tips, which is also similar to a chronic potassium deficiency.  It's entirely possible that there is a boron deficiency, and it's obvious in person but not in those photos.  Did the local palm expert say why they thought it was boron?  I'd check the palm yourself against this page, and see if the symptoms look similar:

https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/publication/EP264

I'd mark the new spear with a sharpie horizontally, this will tell you if the spear is growing or stationary.  If it doesn't move in a week there's definitely a big problem.  This time of year they should be growing an inch or so a day.  You can also spray some hydrogen peroxide in the crown and check for bubbling.  Excessive bubbling is a sign of a crown fungus like Phytophthora, which is definitely a possibility.  I have a couple of Coccothrinax and a Macroglossa that get a crown fungal infection after every winter, and I treat it with a mix of hydrogen peroxide and Daconil squirted into the crown. 

Otherwise, try and post a couple of photos of the leaves on a clear day from up on a ladder, and also a photo of the new spear and crown area.  That'll help us a lot in figuring out what might be wrong.  Keep in mind that leaves that have gone yellow can't turn back green with the addition of fertilizer.  You are trying to make sure the *new* fronds grow out nice and green.  That might take a few months to completely fill out.

[Darold Petty]

Great advice, Merlyn !  

[Knot Work]

3 hours ago, Merlyn said:

I'd agree with others, the one with straight leaves is probably a part-Dactylifera hybrid.  They tend to hold fronds very straight until you've got a full crown.  That only explains why one of them is more straight, and the other is more curved.  Both Sylvestris and Dactylifera should be hardy there, so one being a possible hybrid isn't important for how to solve the problem.  It might only matter because Dactylifera are more susceptible to fungal problems.

The curved leaf one looks pretty normal for a Sylvester, with good new spears and a bit of yellowing coming out of winter.  If anything I'd just switch to a timed-release granular fertilizer like PalmGain.  I have been using mostly generic Vigoro 8-4-8 or Sunniland 6-1-8 on my palms and cycads, and everything is growing great in my jungle.  But they may not have an "ideal" mix of nutrients.  If you only have two or three palms then PalmGain is a good choice from a price-performance perspective. 

The struggling straight-frond one honestly doesn't look like a boron issue.  I don't see any fused tips, hooked tips, accordion leaf, or spears refusing to open.  Sometimes a boron deficiency is just curled and dead leaflet tips, which is also similar to a chronic potassium deficiency.  It's entirely possible that there is a boron deficiency, and it's obvious in person but not in those photos.  Did the local palm expert say why they thought it was boron?  I'd check the palm yourself against this page, and see if the symptoms look similar:

https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/publication/EP264

I'd mark the new spear with a sharpie horizontally, this will tell you if the spear is growing or stationary.  If it doesn't move in a week there's definitely a big problem.  This time of year they should be growing an inch or so a day.  You can also spray some hydrogen peroxide in the crown and check for bubbling.  Excessive bubbling is a sign of a crown fungus like Phytophthora, which is definitely a possibility.  I have a couple of Coccothrinax and a Macroglossa that get a crown fungal infection after every winter, and I treat it with a mix of hydrogen peroxide and Daconil squirted into the crown. 

Otherwise, try and post a couple of photos of the leaves on a clear day from up on a ladder, and also a photo of the new spear and crown area.  That'll help us a lot in figuring out what might be wrong.  Keep in mind that leaves that have gone yellow can't turn back green with the addition of fertilizer.  You are trying to make sure the *new* fronds grow out nice and green.  That might take a few months to completely fill out.

That is my problem. The struggling one does not seem to have any new spears at this time. I’m hoping that it is just hidden in the crown at this point. I obviously can’t get very far inside to see what is going on. I did gently pull on the fronds closest to the center to see if they were loose and they seem solid. I will try and get on a ladder and take some additional pictures to post later today. 

[Merlyn]

2 hours ago, Knot Work said:

That is my problem. The struggling one does not seem to have any new spears at this time. I’m hoping that it is just hidden in the crown at this point. I obviously can’t get very far inside to see what is going on. I did gently pull on the fronds closest to the center to see if they were loose and they seem solid. I will try and get on a ladder and take some additional pictures to post later today. 

Yeah if you can get a photo from just outside the crown, pointing to where the new spear should be, that would definitely help us figure out what's going on.  Maybe try and take a picture from the side, looking in, and from above the center looking down.  Of course, sometimes a "no new spear" problem has nothing to do with the crown, and is a root rot or lack of fertilizer problem.  That makes diagnosing palms problems difficult.

[NickJames]

Google finally posted streetview photos of my former fernandina home!

here is the sylvestris. It used to look like yours and had no green spear by the time I moved. Judging by this recent photo, it overcame it. Also judging by the state of things, the owner does not appear to be taking very good care of the landscaping so it probably hasn’t been fed very well. 
 

Highly recommend getting Florikan. 

[ahosey01]

I would agree that one of these looks like a P. sylvestris (Sylvester) and the other, more upright one looks like a P. dactylifera (true date).

If you have been fertilizing the upright one, I might stop.  P. dactylifera is famously cultivated in deserts all around the world because it needs almost no nutrients whatsoever to grow.  I've never tried to fertilize one, but I wouldn't be certain of positive outcome if I did.  I'm actually not aware of any P. dactylifera anywhere having a nutrient deficiency - a boron deficiency in a P. dactylifera almost sounds like a nitrogen deficiency in a Saguaro.  It just doesn't happen that I am aware of (though I could certainly be wrong).  You can grow them in like pH 9.5 inorganic sand made of crumbled old asphalt and concrete bits that is soaking wet and they do just fine.   You could probably even irrigate them with saltwater.  They definitely, however, don't like humidity and can easily contract fungal infections, as @Merlyn pointed out.

Edited May 25, 2022 by ahosey01

[Knot Work]

2 hours ago, NickJames said:

Google finally posted streetview photos of my former fernandina home!

here is the sylvestris. It used to look like yours and had no green spear by the time I moved. Judging by this recent photo, it overcame it. Also judging by the state of things, the owner does not appear to be taking very good care of the landscaping so it probably hasn’t been fed very well. 
 

Highly recommend getting Florikan. 

Thanks. Hoping for a similar outcome. 

[Knot Work]

2 hours ago, ahosey01 said:

I would agree that one of these looks like a P. sylvestris (Sylvester) and the other, more upright one looks like a P. dactylifera (true date).

If you have been fertilizing the upright one, I might stop.  P. dactylifera is famously cultivated in deserts all around the world because it needs almost no nutrients whatsoever to grow.  I've never tried to fertilize one, but I wouldn't be certain of positive outcome if I did.  I'm actually not aware of any P. dactylifera anywhere having a nutrient deficiency - a boron deficiency in a P. dactylifera almost sounds like a nitrogen deficiency in a Saguaro.  It just doesn't happen that I am aware of (though I could certainly be wrong).  You can grow them in like pH 9.5 inorganic sand made of crumbled old asphalt and concrete bits that is soaking wet and they do just fine.   You could probably even irrigate them with saltwater.  They definitely, however, don't like humidity and can easily contract fungal infections, as @Merlyn pointed out.

That’s why it was killing me that it is having problems. There is an old abandoned nursery near our house with some form of date palms they left behind that don’t look bad for getting absolutely no care or regular watering. 

[Knot Work]

Here’s the best I could do in regards to the picture down the center. I purchased some palm gain as suggested, but it says to spread around the drip line which is mostly over my yard. Will 8-2-12 hurt St. Augustine grass? I guess that’s probably a question for a different forum. Thanks again for everyone’s assistance. 

[Merlyn]

It sure looks like a crown fungal infection to me.  If left untreated it could kill your palm.  It shouldn't have all that brownish stuff at the base of all the fronds.  I've seen recommendations for a crown drench of Daconil mixed with household hydrogen peroxide, I have done this with a couple of palms with good success.  About 1 to 2 cups mixed up with a teaspoon of Daconil may be a good starting point.  Others have recommended Mancozeb for a similar proble, but I haven't tried it myself.  You can also use a systemic soil drench of something like Banrot.  If you can get the leaf litter out of the crown that will help dry things out, which might help it recover.  A leaf blower from below at an angle might do it, since reaching in there is a good way to lose a lot of blood really fast!

For the fertilizer, 1.5lb of 8-2-12 per 100sqft of canopy is a common recommendation.  Just sprinkle evenly under the canopy area.  It is slow release and ahouldn't burn the grass, but you could always do half the amount now and half in a few weeks.

[Knot Work]

Thank you for the info. My plan is to get some crazy thick rubber gloves and clear a path into the heart to remove the dead stuff. Then treat with the Daconil/Peroxide mix you suggested. I treated with copper 2 weeks ago, do you think it will be ok to do this additional treatment? Then fertilize under canopy at half the suggested rate. 
 

Thoughts?

[sonoranfans]

I agree with others this is NOT a sylvestris its a heavy dactylifera hybrid.  Stiff leaves, huge thorns(sylvestris thorns are smaller) with no recurve, to leaf stem along with a biplanar leaflet arrangement says heavy dactylifera influence.  Generally dactylifera do not do well here in florida, they prefer arid or semi arid heat/dry and lots of it.  You might be able to get them to survive here in sandy soil, but they will always look deficient in some way.  Best looking and fruiting dactyliferas in the US are in arizona.  Dactyliferas are native to north africa and the middle east, hot, dry places.  Any nursery selling this hybrid type palm here is not worth talking to, they are ignorant or dont care.  There are few sylvestris that I have seen in florida that have the obvious form.  Leaves should be smaller than dactylifera, recurved with plumose arrangement(not biplanar) and foliage a silver/light green.   I see one "sylvestris" in my neighborhood that appears to be the real thing and 5 or so that have obvious dactylifera blood.  None of them look to have as much dactylifera genes as yours.  These are susceptible to disease and dont like our high humidity.  I would advise you to cut your losses and plant mule palms in jacksonville.  Somebody nearby in jacksonville should know a place where they carry them.  Dont go so big, in 4 years a 15 gallon mule will be 15-20' tall, they are fast.  Most palms that are planted small look better at a large size tha field grown ones.  Rooting hormones in palms peak as juveniles, anything sitting in a flield (and then chopped out when mature) will not root as prolifically as a young one.  Sorry I couldnt tell you how to make these palms thrive, but they appear to have ALOT of dactylifera blood, a palm that thrives in arid or semi arid regions but not humid subtropical climates.  When you look online most of these tree farms are showing hybrids with dactylifera so dont feel bad.   I bought a dactylifera/sylvestris hybrid too(smaller) 10 years ago, and ended up cutting it out.   This discussion has been had many times on palmtalk in the last 15 years, some palms are incredibly hard to find pure in floirida.  (3) phoenix species: sylvestris, rupicola, and reclinata are three palms that are very promiscuous hybridizers here.  If you want a real sylvestris, best bet might be to order a small seedling from out of state.  I know it stinks to find this out, but buying palm trees from any tree farm or big box store has an associated risk that you dont get what you think you are getting.  Smaller nurseries that offer many types of palms are more likely to give you the with the right ID.  This is because people who handle many palm species tend to be much more knowledgeable about palms.  Mule palms are a special hybrid, you will get a mule palm since they are hand pollinated.  Most palms are not ready hybridizers but phoenix species are at the top of the list of most prolific hybridizers.

[Merlyn]

A long pair of needle-nose pliers could also work, instead of trying to get your hands in there.  Harbor Freight probably sells something like that https://www.harborfreight.com/hand-tools/pliers/11-in-long-reach-needle-nose-pliers-57801.html

And when they break you can use them as a hammer, like everything else they sell.  

For fungicides, a copper sulfate type is a common recommendation.  Copper sulfate, Daconil, hydrogen peroxide, Mancozeb, and most others are not systemic, they only work on contact.  So you'd have to reapply periodically, just by pouring/splashing it into the crown from above.  The only systemic ones I have used are Etridiazole (Terrazole, Truban and others), Thiophanate-methyl (Clearys 3336F and others) and various Aluminum tris (Aliette and others). 

If it were my palm I'd do a systemic and a contact fungicide, since there's no way to know which one is going to work or how bad the fungal infection is.  If it's just some cold damage/fungal infection, a lot of times they'll grow right out of it.  But with the bases of the fronds being blackened I would *guess* that it's inside the tissue and a contact type fungicide might help, but not cure it.

[Knot Work]

Bringing my post back from the dead. Was preparing the tree for removal by cutting off dead fronds and lo and behold I found this in the center. Remember several months ago the center was soft, wet, and smelled foul. I have literally done nothing to it for at least six months. Is it trying to make a comeback? I have been told by members of a Facebook group that it is just flowering before it fully dies, but that doesn’t make sense to me. Thoughts?

[Merlyn]

Those do look a bit like flower spathes.  The ones growing out of the side, between the older fronds, definitely look like flowers starting.  The ones in the middle center *might* not be, but they look pretty similar.  If the bud of the palm died it won't be able to grow new fronds, but it can still grow flowers.  Did you ever try pouring hydrogen peroxide, Mancozeb, or Daconil into the crown? 

[Knot Work]

4 hours ago, Merlyn said:

Those do look a bit like flower spathes.  The ones growing out of the side, between the older fronds, definitely look like flowers starting.  The ones in the middle center *might* not be, but they look pretty similar.  If the bud of the palm died it won't be able to grow new fronds, but it can still grow flowers.  Did you ever try pouring hydrogen peroxide, Mancozeb, or Daconil into the crown? 

Per the suggestion on here I did pour the Daconil/Peroxide mixture into the crown. That was my last ditch effort 6 months ago. 

[Merlyn]

2 minutes ago, Knot Work said:

Per the suggestion on here I did pour the Daconil/Peroxide mixture into the crown. That was my last ditch effort 6 months ago. 

Yeah, if it's been 6 months with no new fronds, then my guess is the bud died back in the spring.  It's probably flowering because it can no longer grow fronds. 

I'm about to dig out my largest Attalea Cohune.  It used to have some nice 6-8' fronds, but it got 75% defoliated after ~27F with frost...and then got bud rot.  This weekend's coming freeze is probably going to finish off a few struggling ones that also haven't recovered from last January.

[Knot Work]

Thanks. I still hadn’t given up hope. Looks like it’s time to let her go. Replacement isn’t going to be cheap. 

[Jim in Los Altos]

Those are unmistakably flower spathes sorry to say. It’s not uncommon at all for a palm’s growing point to be dead and and the palm still be able to flower. It happens all the time with many species. 

Edited December 18, 2022 by Jim in Los Altos

[GottmitAlex]

I wish my deceased coconuts did that before giving up the ghost. 

[Knot Work]

On 12/18/2022 at 3:27 PM, Knot Work said:

Thanks. I still hadn’t given up hope. Looks like it’s time to let her go. Replacement isn’t going to be cheap. 

Ok, so I was able to get my builder to replace the tree. Bad news is they decided to come out and replace it yesterday. Florida winters aren’t that harsh, but we are in for some cold weather the next few days. Being I trust the folks on here more then the builder, what regimen would you recommend for getting this one to live. They told me to water the base and the crown daily. No real specifics on the amount of water or time. I also think watering the crown seems like a recipe for disaster with the cold and the fungal infections I experienced with the last one. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated!

[Merlyn]

Uh, watering the crown is flat out dumb advice.  Rule #1 on palms is...never water the crown!    Well, it might be Rule #6.  Or #42.  But yeah...don't water the crown!  I plan on doing some preventative Daconil/hydrogen peroxide doses shortly after each major cold front.  Last spring I missed two palms that weren't growing new spears, a Kerriodoxa Elegans and an Attalea Cohune.  Both had about 50% burn, and appeared to have ok spears.  So I didn't bother treating those until it was obvious that the spears were dead and rotting.  Neither one survived.  I'm not certain it'll help, but I am going to try it anyway.