Growing a Canary Island Date Palm in New York City

[SeattlePottedPalms]

Thanks for sharing your journey. Following to see how it goes!

[Nomad NYC]

Ok,  I know, It's been a while since I've given an update here on the status of my little Canary Island Date Palm. I've been super busy at work these past few months, but now I can finally get back to this during my free time this Christmas Holiday weekend.

As you can see in the below pictures, it has managed to recover pretty well over the spring , summer and fall season:

July:

 

August:

 

September:

 

October:

 

November:

 

November is the month when the temperature begins to get cold here in New York City, so that is the time for setting up for the winter protection.  I'm quite happy that the palm has managed to bounce back from last winter somewhat healthy ( with the help of lots of water and  palm fertilizer )  I'm not taking any more chances just using passive insulation and will now look to use more active heating elements for this wintertime....

 

[Nomad NYC]

I did things a little differently this time for this winter season protection method . The items l be C9 Christmas lights  ( This time taking @Allen and @Will Simpson previous suggestions and advice on using active heating elements  ) , Wilt Pruf  Anti-Transpirant spray, thermal cube, and a little wooden support structure for the Christmas lights inside of the insulation cube (Not to mention garden extension cord connecting to a somewhat nearby patio electrical outlet ).

( Looking back on this , I probably should have also put in a thermal temperature reader as well.... )

 

The C9 lights should be activated by the  thermal cube  when outside temperatures fall to  35 degrees Fahrenheit  ( and turn off automatically at 45 Degrees F ).

 

Hopefully this will give some added heat to the palm during the long winter months.

 

I placed some new mulch on the base to prevent frost , and this time also added little removable tarp for extra protection for when it becomes very cold out.

There should be enough airflow to prevent build up of humidity in the insulation box, along with any possible fungal growth on the leaves

Let's see how this goes , hopefully for the best....See you again next spring, little palm!

 

 

[Allen]

8 hours ago, Nomad NYC said:

I did things a little differently this time for this winter season protection method . The items l be C9 Christmas lights  ( This time taking @Allen and @Will Simpson previous suggestions and advice on using active heating elements  ) , Wilt Pruf  Anti-Transpirant spray, thermal cube, and a little wooden support structure for the Christmas lights inside of the insulation cube (Not to mention garden extension cord connecting to a somewhat nearby patio electrical outlet ).

( Looking back on this , I probably should have also put in a thermal temperature reader as well.... )

 

The C9 lights should be activated by the  thermal cube  when outside temperatures fall to  35 degrees Fahrenheit  ( and turn off automatically at 45 Degrees F ).

 

Hopefully this will give some added heat to the palm during the long winter months.

 

I placed some new mulch on the base to prevent frost , and this time also added little removable tarp for extra protection for when it becomes very cold out.

There should be enough airflow to prevent build up of humidity in the insulation box, along with any possible fungal growth on the leaves

Let's see how this goes , hopefully for the best....See you again next spring, little palm!

 

 

Those bulbs can heat a big area.  Like you mentioned consider a temp monitor so you make sure everything is working.  it really helps when you're first sorting things out.   And if too many bulbs you can just take some bulbs out of the sockets.  I would guess 4-5 bulbs might do it.

Edited December 25, 2023 by Allen

[Nomad NYC]

It's finally feeling like Spring! Even thought this winter here in New York City was relatively mild , for this year I decided to wait a few weeks until mid April to uncover my winter protection for my Canary Island Date Palm, when the weather is a bit warmer.  it looks that the outer covering for the protection box looked like it did it's job!

 

    

It seems like some animal broke in during the winter, to hang out , which would have been nice spot, especially  with the warms given off by the Christmas bulbs. Hopefully whatever it was, it didn't snack on my little palm!  But so far, everything looks great!

 

   

Using the Christmas lights in the protection box this year looked like it turned out to be a big success! The little CIDP looks pretty much as it did when I place the winter protection on it last December it didn't grow at all during those winter months, as to be expected. I would like to think that the surrounding rocks also provided some stored thermal heat when the bulbs weren't on whenever the temperature went over 45 degrees Fahrenheit .

 

    

Very little signs of cold damage this time!

 

Looking good!

 

   

 

 

Compared to previous years, this is a very good start!  I'll wait a week or two, when the weather starts to become consistently warm before I feed it some Palm Gain fertilizer, to give it an even more help for it in the growing season for this year.

[Leelanau Palms]

Thanks for the update. Keep the periodic pictures coming

[Nomad NYC]

Ok, it's been a while since my last update (  I finally have some free time to get back to this due to Turkey Day ).

I see That Palm Talk forum members are recently posting about the cold hardiness of Canary Island Date Palms, so let me continue to add to my personal observations on the topic.

Unfortunately, I am afraid that I will have to start on a bad note, as I feared what would happen came to past...

 

May 2024:

                   Even though it looked pretty weak, my little CIDP seemed like it doing great after taking off the winter protection in April. But then near the of the month there was rain storm , followed by a brief cold blast, which finally did it in. I knew that frequent defoliations due to cold weather temperatures make even full grown CIDP go into decline,  so I was always expecting this outcome with this small planting...

 

I had done the annual spear pull test - with the expected result this time. I gather that the box kept the soil dry enough to keep the shallow roots insulated for a time, but when the cold rain penetrated the soil once the planting was uncovered, it sent it into shock that it would not be able to recover, being in such a weak state as it was already. Maybe I should have waited until may to remove the winter protection for this , until the weather stabilized into the spring temperatures. 

 

 

I checked the stem shaft for any signs of life. Looks like there was nothing down there but rot and death....

 

Dug up the remains, and it appears that the root system never became extensive, which is definitely the mark of a not healthy palm. Oh well.....Looks like the end of an interesting  experiment.

 

Or the beginning of another?

   

 

Fortunately, I still had two six year old San Francisco-sourced seed grown CIDP,  one planted as replacement for the recently departed.

   

 

June:

 

July:

 

August:

 

September:

 

October:

 

November:

As one can see from the above pictures from the previous months,  this older replacement CIDP is doing pretty well , and if the results of the winter protection of the sister CIDP in my  other 'Site B'  location ( those pictures will also follow soon ).  Will  set up the winter protection for this new one sometime this weekend.

[Swolte]

How did I ever miss this thread? I love these "longitudinal" studies...  Good luck! Hope chapter 2 will last a bit longer!

I have gone through my share of CIDP and have found that they get more resilient when they are larger.  Then again, it also becomes harder to protect them... I used to cut down all petioles when temps would get below 15F. That got them through some tough winters.
 

[TropicsEnjoyer]

it’s a shame that poor little palm met its end so soon, but hopefully the replacement can continue its legacy for a good while longer 

[UK_Palms]

8 hours ago, TropicsEnjoyer said:

it’s a shame that poor little palm met its end so soon, but hopefully the replacement can continue its legacy for a good while longer 

It was a failed experiment from the get-go in NYC which is zone 7b. CIDP will struggle badly in 8b even, unless it is a dry, arid and very sunny 8b climate like you can get in parts of Arizona, New Mexico, Texas etc. You really need zone 9a and even then you might be protecting them in continental areas that can still get 8a winters once or twice a decade. So zone 9a is really the bare minimum for CIDP (I can barely grow them here in 8b), but ideally you need 9b for decent long term CIDP’s. Portland, Oregon is 9a and they still can’t grow CIDP’s for instance. So trying in 7b New York was suicide with how wet it is and how cold it gets in winter.

Another big factor is the wet, humid summers in NYC off the back of having a cold winter. That is a recipe for fungal issues and crown rot. They really need a dry summer from May - September, especially if they are recovering from winter damage. That is why the do so well over here in the UK, because the summers are generally dry with low humidity. Mild, wet winters followed by warmish, dry summers are ideal if you are trying to grow in 9a. Again, I struggle to grow them in my 8b location with mild winters and dryish summers. You need 9a / 9b and that is that. Unless you’re in Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Florida etc where you can get them through 8a / 8b.

[Swolte]

I tend to agree with @UK_Palms!

I will say that they are very tough when healthy and mature. Comparable to medi's or even Trachy's, in my experience, solely looking at long-term survivability. Then again, it is near impossible to get them to that size nowadays. Not far from where I live out in the country (officially 9a, but effectively 8a) there's a mature one that has returned unprotected from all the mayhem thrown at it the last few years here (low 3F, several days below freezing, low teens every year combined w crazy temp swings, extreme wet/humidity/droughts). JFG has a 30ft (?) specimen. Despite that, I don't believe it will survive long-term in 7b, proper. We have that summer heat they like that, combined with some care, can make them explode!

Disease (fusarium wilt) has dwindled CIDP populations in Texas/US. I had a hard time finding specimens in nurseries when I was looking for one last year (nursery owners cited the disease when I asked - anecdotal evidence). Ended up ordering online, lol. Is this discussed as an issue in the UK as well @UK_Palms?

But by all means, if you're willing to put in the work to protect it, I'd be interested to learn how big you can get it! Following...

[Las Palmas Norte]

I managed to grow a P. canariensis for 10 years from a 5 gal to about 8' tall. It wouldn't have ever survived without a winter tent. It benefited from the overhead protection on cold nights with a string of old C9 lights on the ground around the base of the trunk. When it out grew the shelter and was left to subsist on it's own, it easily died.

I believe this was the last year (2014) it was alive.

 

[Las Palmas Norte]

4 hours ago, Swolte said:

... But by all means, if you're willing to put in the work to protect it, I'd be interested to learn how big you can get it! Following...

Here's a video from Europe that outlines what's required to protect these massive palms. A huge undertaking.

 

 

 

[UK_Palms]

On 11/29/2024 at 2:54 PM, Swolte said:

Disease (fusarium wilt) has dwindled CIDP populations in Texas/US. I had a hard time finding specimens in nurseries when I was looking for one last year (nursery owners cited the disease when I asked - anecdotal evidence). Ended up ordering online, lol. Is this discussed as an issue in the UK as well @UK_Palms

 

I have never thought Fusarium wilt was a thing here in the UK, either due to climatic factors or it just not being present among plants and in the gardening communities. However in recent months, I have seen a few worrying signs that make me question whether or not it has started appearing here. It certainly wasn't here before, but I don't doubt for a second that it could be easily spread to the UK via plants/palms coming from the USA or the Med region of Europe.

I can't remember what palm exactly was the one I saw a few weeks ago where I actually thought "wow, that looks like Fusarium wilt taking out that CIDP" but there definitely was one, somewhere. Either in London or one the south coast. I'm sure I will come across it again. And then there is also this one below, on the outskirts of London, which looks a bit suspect. I can't tell for sure whether it is Fusarium wilt, but it shouldn't look like that. Something has affected it, besides any kind of weather related events/damage.

The 2nd most recent street view image was in June of this year, after last winter which was pretty damn mild. There are other CIDP's further outside of London with even less UHI influence that had no damage from last winter, so the damage shown here cannot be due to the winter. Something has affected it. The smaller one next to it has a browny frond or two in the centre/interior as well...? I do fear that it is Fusarium Wilt...? But I need some other people with experience of this disease in their own areas, to give their opinion on this one...? 🤔 @Xenon @PalmatierMeg 

[Axel Amsterdam]

13 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

 

I have never thought Fusarium wilt was a thing here in the UK, either due to climatic factors or it just not being present among plants and in the gardening communities. However in recent months, I have seen a few worrying signs that make me question whether or not it has started appearing here. It certainly wasn't here before, but I don't doubt for a second that it could be easily spread to the UK via plants/palms coming from the USA or the Med region of Europe.

I can't remember what palm exactly was the one I saw a few weeks ago where I actually thought "wow, that looks like Fusarium wilt taking out that CIDP" but there definitely was one, somewhere. Either in London or one the south coast. I'm sure I will come across it again. And then there is also this one below, on the outskirts of London, which looks a bit suspect. I can't tell for sure whether it is Fusarium wilt, but it shouldn't look like that. Something has affected it, besides any kind of weather related events/damage.

The 2nd most recent street view image was in June of this year, after last winter which was pretty damn mild. There are other CIDP's further outside of London with even less UHI influence that had no damage from last winter, so the damage shown here cannot be due to the winter. Something has affected it. The smaller one next to it has a browny frond or two in the centre/interior as well...? I do fear that it is Fusarium Wilt...? But I need some other people with experience of this disease in their own areas, to give their opinion on this one...? 🤔 @Xenon @PalmatierMeg 

It’s rootdamage from constructing the driveway. 

[Subtropical LIS]

On 11/29/2024 at 7:24 AM, UK_Palms said:

It was a failed experiment from the get-go in NYC which is zone 7b. CIDP will struggle badly in 8b even, unless it is a dry, arid and very sunny 8b climate like you can get in parts of Arizona, New Mexico, Texas etc. You really need zone 9a and even then you might be protecting them in continental areas that can still get 8a winters once or twice a decade. So zone 9a is really the bare minimum for CIDP (I can barely grow them here in 8b), but ideally you need 9b for decent long term CIDP’s. Portland, Oregon is 9a and they still can’t grow CIDP’s for instance. So trying in 7b New York was suicide with how wet it is and how cold it gets in winter.

Another big factor is the wet, humid summers in NYC off the back of having a cold winter. That is a recipe for fungal issues and crown rot. They really need a dry summer from May - September, especially if they are recovering from winter damage. That is why the do so well over here in the UK, because the summers are generally dry with low humidity. Mild, wet winters followed by warmish, dry summers are ideal if you are trying to grow in 9a. Again, I struggle to grow them in my 8b location with mild winters and dryish summers. You need 9a / 9b and that is that. Unless you’re in Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Florida etc where you can get them through 8a / 8b.

I would tend to think you’re incorrect about wet and humid summers having much of an impact on CIDP, at least in lower latitudes (40 latitude southward) and hot summer climates.  

CIDP’s grow very well in the humid subtropical climates of the lower Atlantic Coast in Georgia and South Carolina, which are even more humid with higher summer rainfall than NYC. These locations are low latitude, humid subtropical climates that often have heavy (though brief) tropical rainstorms and high humidity in summer, yet CIDP are found up and down their coastlines. My guess is the reason CIDP grow well in these climates is they have a long season of intense sun angles, and stretches of hot and dry weather.   

Fungal issues and crown rot might have a much higher chance of occurring in a high latitude cool/damp/often cloudy climate (like the UK), where the sun/heat is weak most of the year... but in locations from 40 latitude south, the intensity of the sun dries things out fast. CIDP are native to locations that have hot summer temperatures (highs around 29 C/83 F)…cool summers slow them down. NYC has average summer highs of 29 – 30 C…more than enough heat for them to grow well. If they were covered from December through March in NYC, there is no reason they would not grow well the 8 months of the year. 

This experiment likely failed for other reasons like the palm never became established, cold, too small of seedling planted…etc.

CIDP in Charleston SC…a high rainfall/high humidity zone 8b summer climate:

 

[UK_Palms]

@Subtropical LIS Well any amount of wet-cold and summer humidity/rainfall is largely irrelevant when comparing somewhere that is just too cold in winter vs a location that has relatively mild winters and brief freeze events, which can thus support CIDP. The reason that they grow in coastal south Carolina is because the winters are pretty mild, compared to NYC at least. That is the primary factor with survival. Rainfall and humidity becomes irrelevant.

Sullivans Island has a daily mean of 47.8F in January and an annual mean of 65.5F.

 

NYC has a daily mean of 33.7F in January (15.1F less than Sullivan's Island) and NYC has an annual mean of 55.8F (9.7F less). 

 

They won't grow in NYC because the winters are too cold and when they do have a freeze event it goes down to like 0F or -5F there in NYC, as opposed to say +10-15F at absolute worst in costal South Carolina. So not only are the freeze events themselves less severe, but annual warmth in general is also more substantial in the Carolinas, which helps with recovery and survival, especially during the cooler months. Even in winter there is mild/warm air getting into the Carolinas to start pushing growth again (CIDP starts moving at 55F). The same can't be said for NYC and many other northern places that are below 50F for months on end.

So a severe freeze is all the more damaging when you throw in 0F minimums and 2-3 months where CIDP can't even start thawing out and growing again. With a cover over it and no sunlight it is not going to grow either and go into decline. That is the reason why the OP has lost his CIDP. His winters are too cold and he had to cover it up for too long with no sunlight. They aren't going to be doing this in coastal South Carolina are they. More like they would wrap up a small CIDP for a week during a mid-winter freeze event down to 10-15F. Then the rest of winter it is uncovered. So a huge difference there. CIDP's in the coastal Carolinas will be getting sun and airflow throughout winter, unlike in NYC.

When you are having freezing cold winters with severe freeze events and minimal warmup, that is when the dry, sunny summers are more essential for recovery/survival and to mitigate fungal issues and decline in general. If the OP had his palm covered up with no sunlight or proper airflow for months, it is going into decline with issues with the growing point, especially with a wet/humid summer that will further exacerbate fungal/rot issues on an already stressed/damaged palm. As for other more tropical regions that have wet/humid summers and year-round moisture, that can further exacerbate certain diseases and allow them to manifest more easily. The moist environment in general can allow diseases to take over in places like Florida or Thailand where CIDP can struggle.

So having mild enough temperatures in general during winter is the main overriding factor for growing CIDP before anything else. You can't have months on end of sub 20F nights and days that don't go above 35-40F. That is fine on a few days/nights each winter in marginal growing zones, but not for 2-3 months straight. They do also like to have a drier summer interlude in cool-wet winter climates, but it is not absolutely essential, as long as there are no hard freezes, especially in back to back years, and winters in general are mild. That is not the case in NYC. It is freezing cold in January there and the summers are wet and humid. Bad combo.

[Jonathan]

9 hours ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

It’s rootdamage from constructing the driveway. 

I wouldn't think so.

A CIDP that size wouldn't be too worried by damage to, what, 10% maybe of it's root ball. Also the palm to the right looks to be unwell too, so probably something else at play here. 

[Axel Amsterdam]

1 hour ago, Jonathan said:

I wouldn't think so.

A CIDP that size wouldn't be too worried by damage to, what, 10% maybe of it's root ball. Also the palm to the right looks to be unwell too, so probably something else at play here. 

Its possible Jonathan, but the constructionwork may have been much extensive than just the driveway. I noticed the container was already placed next to the house a full year before in 2021. 

These palms also show how cold 2012 was in greater London. The one on the right died

 

[Jonathan]

12 hours ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Its possible Jonathan, but the constructionwork may have been much extensive than just the driveway. I noticed the container was already placed next to the house a full year before in 2021. 

These palms also show how cold 2012 was in greater London. The one on the right died

 

Whoa...that's pretty cold, to kill them at that size!

Yeah, I guess if they did more work than just the driveway it might account for the damage. 

So have I got this right: they had a couple of palms in the ground which were killed by cold in 2012, then replaced them with two more which are now dying? That's bad luck....or maybe bad management!

[UK_Palms]

1 hour ago, Jonathan said:

Whoa...that's pretty cold, to kill them at that size!

Yeah, I guess if they did more work than just the driveway it might account for the damage. 

So have I got this right: they had a couple of palms in the ground which were killed by cold in 2012, then replaced them with two more which are now dying? That's bad luck....or maybe bad management!

The palms Axel refers to were damaged by the notoriously cold winter of 2010/11. The following winter was also quite bad and one of them died and had to be replaced, possibly due to a wet summer also impacting their recovery. The 2009-2012 period was not good for palms here in the UK! I suspect the lowest it got there was about 13-14F at worst, although the duration of the 2010/11 event was a big factor in damage.

Anyway one of them also recovered fine and went on to become a pretty big specimen there, which you can see in the images I posted. That big one on the left is the original palm, not a replacement. It looked great in 2022. However it is now being affected by a disease of some kind, or by the groundwork and new driveway that was put in. Either way it doesn’t look good.

It’s hard to to say conclusively what the issue is, but I am leaning more towards Fusarium Wilt or some kind of disease, hence why the smaller one is only just starting to show signs of it as well. If the driveway and soil/concrete was the issue, they would both be showing equally bad damage. The smaller one is only just showing browning in the crown. I will keep an eye out to see if any other CIDP’s exhibit this issue over here.

[Subtropical LIS]

20 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

@Subtropical LIS Well any amount of wet-cold and summer humidity/rainfall is largely irrelevant when comparing somewhere that is just too cold in winter vs a location that has relatively mild winters and brief freeze events, which can thus support CIDP. The reason that they grow in coastal south Carolina is because the winters are pretty mild, compared to NYC at least. That is the primary factor with survival. Rainfall and humidity becomes irrelevant.

Sullivans Island has a daily mean of 47.8F in January and an annual mean of 65.5F.

 

NYC has a daily mean of 33.7F in January (15.1F less than Sullivan's Island) and NYC has an annual mean of 55.8F (9.7F less). 

 

They won't grow in NYC because the winters are too cold and when they do have a freeze event it goes down to like 0F or -5F there in NYC, as opposed to say +10-15F at absolute worst in costal South Carolina. So not only are the freeze events themselves less severe, but annual warmth in general is also more substantial in the Carolinas, which helps with recovery and survival, especially during the cooler months. Even in winter there is mild/warm air getting into the Carolinas to start pushing growth again (CIDP starts moving at 55F). The same can't be said for NYC and many other northern places that are below 50F for months on end.

So a severe freeze is all the more damaging when you throw in 0F minimums and 2-3 months where CIDP can't even start thawing out and growing again. With a cover over it and no sunlight it is not going to grow either and go into decline. That is the reason why the OP has lost his CIDP. His winters are too cold and he had to cover it up for too long with no sunlight. They aren't going to be doing this in coastal South Carolina are they. More like they would wrap up a small CIDP for a week during a mid-winter freeze event down to 10-15F. Then the rest of winter it is uncovered. So a huge difference there. CIDP's in the coastal Carolinas will be getting sun and airflow throughout winter, unlike in NYC.

When you are having freezing cold winters with severe freeze events and minimal warmup, that is when the dry, sunny summers are more essential for recovery/survival and to mitigate fungal issues and decline in general. If the OP had his palm covered up with no sunlight or proper airflow for months, it is going into decline with issues with the growing point, especially with a wet/humid summer that will further exacerbate fungal/rot issues on an already stressed/damaged palm. As for other more tropical regions that have wet/humid summers and year-round moisture, that can further exacerbate certain diseases and allow them to manifest more easily. The moist environment in general can allow diseases to take over in places like Florida or Thailand where CIDP can struggle.

So having mild enough temperatures in general during winter is the main overriding factor for growing CIDP before anything else. You can't have months on end of sub 20F nights and days that don't go above 35-40F. That is fine on a few days/nights each winter in marginal growing zones, but not for 2-3 months straight. They do also like to have a drier summer interlude in cool-wet winter climates, but it is not absolutely essential, as long as there are no hard freezes, especially in back to back years, and winters in general are mild. That is not the case in NYC. It is freezing cold in January there and the summers are wet and humid. Bad combo.

I would tend to doubt that hypotheses…wet-cold appears to be one of the main reasons CIDP have trouble (normally they die in only a few years) in the wet-cold climates of the Pacific Northwest of the United States. CIDP flourish where there is strong sun (promotes drying) and a long season of hot temperatures. They are naïve (endemic) to such a climate.

In terms of NYC,  “wet-cold” is a 3 – 4 month issue (why as I mentioned they would have to be covered in the cold season) …while there is a good long 6 month period in NYC with enough heat to support CIDP.

People often don’t realize how hot NYC is in summer: Just using your location as an example (since they can marginally grow up there), every single month from April through November NYC is warmer than Surry – and by June, the average lows in NYC are about the same as the average highs in Surry. NYC averages 82 days with a high temperature of 26 C (or higher) – Surry averages 5 such days annually. The average annual temp in Surry is 10 C….NYC is 12 C. Also, when a CIDP is exposed to sun in NYC (41 N)…it’s far stronger than in Surry (52 N) – 800 miles north. It is untrue that dry climate plants can't be covered for a few months, I have a Washingtonia Robusta that is covered for 90 days every winter and is 4 years old and 8 feet tall (in zone 7b!):

 

Additionally, …and I understand you might not have access to correct data of USA climates in the UK… it’s incorrect that the average annual freeze event NYC goes down to 0 or – 5 F. NYC has not fallen below 0 F since 2016 (-1 F that year)…and before that one has to go back to 1994 (30 years ago). It is also incorrect that NYC has “months on end” of sub 20 F nights – NYC average 14 days a year when the low will fall below 20 F (-6 C). EVERY winter NYC will have days that get to 10 C (50 F) many times, these palms can be uncovered for a few days to get sun - I do this with my Robusta every winter. Last winter there were days in the 60's F for a week.

Why CIDP grow in the Carolinas so well is that they have strong sunshine and not only warm average temperatures, but periodic bouts of almost hot weather – even in winter. The normal high in Charleston is 15 C (60 F) in January…but many times a surge of tropical air comes in from the south Atlantic/Bahamas and several days with highs in the upper 70’s (24- 25 C) will happen. That winter warmth and strong winter sun is why they flourish. The occasional annual low near 20 F has no effect with that kind of warmth for so much of the year.  Yes, in high latitude wet climates like the UK where the sun is weak and drying is very slow, it might promote disease or wilt...but not in lower latitude hot summer climates. Of course, in the long hot season, months on end of daily highs above 26 C allows for rapid and strong growth.

Finally, it is totally incorrect that in places like Florida CIDP struggle. Massive specimens by the thousands line Florida streets and avenues – even in far north Florida. I took these photographs in February 2022, this is Ormond Beach, Fl…in far northern Florida 1 hr. from the Georgia state line. The entire beach town is covered with CIDP, like many parts of northern Florida:

 

 

[UK_Palms]

@Subtropical LIS You are missing my point entirely. It just gets too cold in winter to grow CIDP in NYC and that is that. It cannot be argued with. And the proof is in the pudding. Nobody has ever successfully grown a CIDP in New York or New Jersey or Delaware, Mayland or Virginia for that matter. The winters just get too cold there with lows down to 0F as recently as 2016 and at least 5F as recently as 2023!!! I remember seeing it and I screenshotted it funny enough. Even -15C / 5F at Long Beach right at the seafront where it is supposed to be fairly mild!

 

Not to mention weeks upon weeks of sub-freezing temps pretty much every other winter, if not every winter, where there is no thaw for a good 2-3 weeks sometimes, with tons of snow and ice. The duration of the cold in Jan/Feb is as much as an issue as the ultimate lows in that area. Plus insufficient solar radiation (unlike in Arizona, New Mexico, Texas etc) to help mitigate the effects of a freeze of this magnitude. And that's before we even discuss moisture issues. Even if you miraculously get a CIDP through one winter there, the following winter will sure as hell take them out. The OP even covered his one during an average winter... and well, that worked out well for him didn't it. 🙄

Basically the amount of wet-cold in winter, annual precipitation and summer humidity etc is all completely irrelevant if you've got brutal minimums down to 0F to 5F every few years and a month solid of sub freezing temperatures during mid-winter, especially when you are above say 35-40N latitude. Combined with the insufficient levels of solar radiation to help mitigate the freeze. So it's pointless even discussing wet-cold and rainfall/humidity at that point regarding NYC. That only really applies for borderline climates like Portland in Oregon that is 9a, which still can't grow a CIDP due to the cool-wet winters. Or even parts of southeast Florida that are 10b / 11a but just too wet and humid in general, especially during summer, which results in a number of issues.

Regarding the UK, it is pointless making comparisons with summer heat and sunshine for NYC or wherever, since it just does not get cold enough to really damage big specimens in most of London and the south coast of England, never mind kill them. The winters are too mild, which is ultimately the main factor that I am highlighting to you. The reason the ones in London and southeast England have phenomenally full healthy crowns are the mild wet winters followed by dry warm summers. There is no extreme temperatures, whether hot or cold. CIDP like that, as well as dryish summers followed by mild/wet winters. Providing temps don’t really go below -5C / 23F, although they can obviously survive much colder than that in drier climates with strong sunshine levels. Just not here or in other marginal climates. And NYC is not a ‘marginal’ climate by any means. It is an incompatible climate for CIDP due to the winters. End of story.

[Subtropical LIS]

21 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

@Subtropical LIS You are missing my point entirely. It just gets too cold in winter to grow CIDP in NYC and that is that. It cannot be argued with. And the proof is in the pudding. Nobody has ever successfully grown a CIDP in New York or New Jersey or Delaware, Mayland or Virginia for that matter. The winters just get too cold there with lows down to 0F as recently as 2016 and at least 5F as recently as 2023!!! I remember seeing it and I screenshotted it funny enough. Even -15C / 5F at Long Beach right at the seafront where it is supposed to be fairly mild!

 

Not to mention weeks upon weeks of sub-freezing temps pretty much every other winter, if not every winter, where there is no thaw for a good 2-3 weeks sometimes, with tons of snow and ice. The duration of the cold in Jan/Feb is as much as an issue as the ultimate lows in that area. Plus insufficient solar radiation (unlike in Arizona, New Mexico, Texas etc) to help mitigate the effects of a freeze of this magnitude. And that's before we even discuss moisture issues. Even if you miraculously get a CIDP through one winter there, the following winter will sure as hell take them out. The OP even covered his one during an average winter... and well, that worked out well for him didn't it. 🙄

Basically the amount of wet-cold in winter, annual precipitation and summer humidity etc is all completely irrelevant if you've got brutal minimums down to 0F to 5F every few years and a month solid of sub freezing temperatures during mid-winter, especially when you are above say 35-40N latitude. Combined with the insufficient levels of solar radiation to help mitigate the freeze. So it's pointless even discussing wet-cold and rainfall/humidity at that point regarding NYC. That only really applies for borderline climates like Portland in Oregon that is 9a, which still can't grow a CIDP due to the cool-wet winters. Or even parts of southeast Florida that are 10b / 11a but just too wet and humid in general, especially during summer, which results in a number of issues.

Regarding the UK, it is pointless making comparisons with summer heat and sunshine for NYC or wherever, since it just does not get cold enough to really damage big specimens in most of London and the south coast of England, never mind kill them. The winters are too mild, which is ultimately the main factor that I am highlighting to you. The reason the ones in London and southeast England have phenomenally full healthy crowns are the mild wet winters followed by dry warm summers. There is no extreme temperatures, whether hot or cold. CIDP like that, as well as dryish summers followed by mild/wet winters. Providing temps don’t really go below -5C / 23F, although they can obviously survive much colder than that in drier climates with strong sunshine levels. Just not here or in other marginal climates. And NYC is not a ‘marginal’ climate by any means. It is an incompatible climate for CIDP due to the winters. End of story.

I disagree… I think your basing your assumptions on false conjecture and lack of understanding of what palms want climatically. I think you also have a misguided concept of the climate of NYC. If CIDP is covered in the cold season (Dec – Feb)…I think one could have a nice specimen grow for many years with no problem in NYC. You are also incorrect that no one has ever grown a CIDP in the Middle Atlantic states successfully– they can be found in several locations in Virginia that I’m in each month.  

No amount of data can hide the fact that NYC has a long season of hot temperatures, intense sun, and rapid evaporation that would help a CIDP to flourish. Now you’re saying that “weeks upon weeks of sub-freezing temps” would be an issue.  Again, I understand you might not have access to accurate climate data…but even saying that is a mostly incorrect in terms of NYC winter climate:  NYC averages below freezing (32 F/0 C) from December 26^th….to February 25 = just 8 weeks.  It also, (of course) incorrect that NYC "gets tons of snow and ice " (lol)...NYC averages 26 in of snow...and in some years less than 10 inches fall. In any event, it is pointless about low temps in NYC will get in a typical winter  or snowfall– since one would cover their CIDP in winter anyway?

Also, ALMOST NEVER will every single night from late Dec to late Feb be below freezing in NYC – MANY times lows in winter not even fall below freezing.  I note you posted the image of the single very cold winter night of 2022/2023 - …yet just a few weeks before that, NYC had a week not only where the lows never went below freezing…but the highs were in the upper 50’s and 60’s F:

CIDP’s, like all palms, want heat and sunshine. They grow all over the place in our arid zone 7a/b climates in the USA. In fact, locations where CIDP grow in our western arid climates (for example St. George Utah) …that HAVE LONGER periods that average nights below 32 F/0C than NYC.  Many times in the 3 winter months a CIDP could be uncovered in NYC and get sun and air during the frequent mild weather. Obviously insufficient solar radiation is not an issue in NYC: Since even up in the UK at 52 North, where there is weak sun all year, and the frequent overcast skies and lack of heat typical of high latitude oceanic climates prevails, they are able to survive.  

Many dry climate plants do very well if the rest of the year they have strong sunshine and heat. The entire East Coast from Floirda to Connecticut has many dry climate plants that grow like crazy: Why? The intense summer sun, hot summer temperatures, intense evporation, and sandy soils. 

Giant yuccas on the beach in Delaware:

As a side note…it is also totally incorrect that they suffer for issues in south Florida from too wet and humid…they are sold by the thousands across tropical south Florida…and can be found in many home landscapes.  CIDP flourish in south Florida because there is so much heat, strong hot drying sun, and quick evaporation (climatically the opposite of the UK).

This is Hollywood Florida…deep south Florida tropical climate 60 inches of rain annually and humidity year round. It’s has average highs of  90 F in summer and 75 F in winter. End of story. 

 

CIDP in the Florida Keys in Feb....

 

 

 

 

[CascadiaPalms]

The CIDP is such an interesting palm in regards to what conditions it can thrive/survive.  Definitely worth a case study. 

[UK_Palms]

4 hours ago, Subtropical LIS said:

I disagree… I think your basing your assumptions on false conjecture and lack of understanding of what palms want climatically. I think you also have a misguided concept of the climate of NYC. If CIDP is covered in the cold season (Dec – Feb)…I think one could have a nice specimen grow for many years with no problem in NYC. You are also incorrect that no one has ever grown a CIDP in the Middle Atlantic states successfully– they can be found in several locations in Virginia that I’m in each month.  

No amount of data can hide the fact that NYC has a long season of hot temperatures, intense sun, and rapid evaporation that would help a CIDP to flourish. Now you’re saying that “weeks upon weeks of sub-freezing temps” would be an issue.  Again, I understand you might not have access to accurate climate data…but even saying that is a mostly incorrect in terms of NYC winter climate:  NYC averages below freezing (32 F/0 C) from December 26^th….to February 25 = just 8 weeks.  It also, (of course) incorrect that NYC "gets tons of snow and ice " (lol)...NYC averages 26 in of snow...and in some years less than 10 inches fall. In any event, it is pointless about low temps in NYC will get in a typical winter  or snowfall– since one would cover their CIDP in winter anyway?

Also, ALMOST NEVER will every single night from late Dec to late Feb be below freezing in NYC – MANY times lows in winter not even fall below freezing.  I note you posted the image of the single very cold winter night of 2022/2023 - …yet just a few weeks before that, NYC had a week not only where the lows never went below freezing…but the highs were in the upper 50’s and 60’s F:

CIDP’s, like all palms, want heat and sunshine. They grow all over the place in our arid zone 7a/b climates in the USA. In fact, locations where CIDP grow in our western arid climates (for example St. George Utah) …that HAVE LONGER periods that average nights below 32 F/0C than NYC.  Many times in the 3 winter months a CIDP could be uncovered in NYC and get sun and air during the frequent mild weather. Obviously insufficient solar radiation is not an issue in NYC: Since even up in the UK at 52 North, where there is weak sun all year, and the frequent overcast skies and lack of heat typical of high latitude oceanic climates prevails, they are able to survive.  

Many dry climate plants do very well if the rest of the year they have strong sunshine and heat. The entire East Coast from Floirda to Connecticut has many dry climate plants that grow like crazy: Why? The intense summer sun, hot summer temperatures, intense evporation, and sandy soils. 

Giant yuccas on the beach in Delaware:

As a side note…it is also totally incorrect that they suffer for issues in south Florida from too wet and humid…they are sold by the thousands across tropical south Florida…and can be found in many home landscapes.  CIDP flourish in south Florida because there is so much heat, strong hot drying sun, and quick evaporation (climatically the opposite of the UK).

This is Hollywood Florida…deep south Florida tropical climate 60 inches of rain annually and humidity year round. It’s has average highs of  90 F in summer and 75 F in winter. End of story. 

 

CIDP in the Florida Keys in Feb....

 

 

Cool story, bro. It seems that CIDP is actually an easy grow in NYC after all this time, thanks to all that summer heat! And there was the rest of us on here thinking they would struggle in zone 7b. There must be thousands of pristine CIDP's lurking in back yards all over NYC, tucked out of sight, growing fine. It's a shame we don't get to see them on street corners, but it is what it is.

Just pop a shelter over it in your back yard on the coldest night each winter and you will have a monster trunking specimen in your Zone 7b NYC back yard before you even know it. I mean it's such an easy grow there with all that summer heat and the long growing season that I don't know why everyone in NYC doesn't just plant one at this point! I guess they're not all as smart as you pal.

Thank you for educating the rest of us on this matter, since we were all incorrectly of the assumption that CIDP would struggle in the northwest of the USA, including NYC. How wrong we were all this time. Just put a shelter over it and you are fine. Next time you walk past a homeless person on the street, just ask them to 'buy a house'. These things really are that simple. 

 

Regarding Florida, I think you will find that many people in south and east Florida have had issues with CIDP due to the near constant humidity and heavy rainfall. Hot/wet climates promote certain diseases, including various types of wilt, which will take hold and manifest quite easily in tropical hot/wet climates. I know they have lost CIDP in Florida and in Queensland, Australia due to this. It's not so much the climate itself as it is the diseases that come with it. Many of those diseases are not present or can not manifest in drier and cooler Mediterranean or temperate climates. Even those ones you posted in Hollywood, Florida look stressed. And I think I will listen to the Floridians over your views...

 

 

This is why CIDP does very well in places like northern California and southern England where it is cool and damp (not hot and wet), but those places usually have a dry and warmish summer. In fact summer heat is largely irrelevant if they're not even having to grow out of any winter damage. CIDP does not need much heat at all. They just need a mildish winter, even if it is wet, and then a drier growing season for the most part. But at the end of the day, everything comes back to the winter. I mean having 26 inches of snowfall in NYC on average is just ludicrous. I dread to think how much you guys have in a 'bad' winter. Good luck with that one. All you have done is proved to me all the more why attempting CIDP in NYC is suicide from the get-go. 

[CascadiaPalms]

I think the "main" theme I get from a palm like the CIDP -- is that it's probably "okay" to grow anywhere, until it's not okay.  And the meaning "it's not okay" is that one event or a prolonged period of time that a locality is susceptible or at risk experiencing.  And I mean this for unprotected palms.  Because you can protect a palm in any zone and "claim" it can grow there.  So places like NYC and Portland.....CIDP will probably grow until the stereotypical weather events make themselves known.

Honestly, I've learned that you can't always look at climate data, but rather if an area has the metrological set-up for a weather event that could be disastrous in the shorter term vs. longer term.  For example, if Anytown USA is in zone 9a (moderate yearly distributed precip) and averages 45/35 in the winter, but DOES have the topography and geography to get hammered by a prolonged ice storm once a decade vs. a dryer climate 8a that does NOT have this set-up.  Wouldn't 8a be safer?

Long story short, climate data can only do so much.  Remember, climate data is a TON of averaged numbers over a very long period of time.  If a hay bale was time and a needle was an absolute piercing sharp weather event...it's only a needle in a hay stack....but it's still a very sharp needle.

[Subtropical LIS]

4 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

 

Cool story, bro. It seems that CIDP is actually an easy grow in NYC after all this time, thanks to all that summer heat! And there was the rest of us on here thinking they would struggle in zone 7b. There must be thousands of pristine CIDP's lurking in back yards all over NYC, tucked out of sight, growing fine. It's a shame we don't get to see them on street corners, but it is what it is.

Just pop a shelter over it in your back yard on the coldest night each winter and you will have a monster trunking specimen in your Zone 7b NYC back yard before you even know it. I mean it's such an easy grow there with all that summer heat and the long growing season that I don't know why everyone in NYC doesn't just plant one at this point! I guess they're not all as smart as you pal.

Thank you for educating the rest of us on this matter, since we were all incorrectly of the assumption that CIDP would struggle in the northwest of the USA, including NYC. How wrong we were all this time. Just put a shelter over it and you are fine. Next time you walk past a homeless person on the street, just ask them to 'buy a house'. These things really are that simple. 

 

Regarding Florida, I think you will find that many people in south and east Florida have had issues with CIDP due to the near constant humidity and heavy rainfall. Hot/wet climates promote certain diseases, including various types of wilt, which will take hold and manifest quite easily in tropical hot/wet climates. I know they have lost CIDP in Florida and in Queensland, Australia due to this. It's not so much the climate itself as it is the diseases that come with it. Many of those diseases are not present or can not manifest in drier and cooler Mediterranean or temperate climates. Even those ones you posted in Hollywood, Florida look stressed. And I think I will listen to the Floridians over your views...

 

 

This is why CIDP does very well in places like northern California and southern England where it is cool and damp (not hot and wet), but those places usually have a dry and warmish summer. In fact summer heat is largely irrelevant if they're not even having to grow out of any winter damage. CIDP does not need much heat at all. They just need a mildish winter, even if it is wet, and then a drier growing season for the most part. But at the end of the day, everything comes back to the winter. I mean having 26 inches of snowfall in NYC on average is just ludicrous. I dread to think how much you guys have in a 'bad' winter. Good luck with that one. All you have done is proved to me all the more why attempting CIDP in NYC is suicide from the get-go. 

It seems you have become sarcastic because your assumptions and misinformed opinions don’t square with the facts. You keep moving the goal post when what you say is proven incorrect. Now your changing (again) that somehow I said CIDP are easy to grow in NYC and should be on every street corner. I said a CIDP could be grown and enjoyed in NYC for many years (or any zone 7/8 climate that is from 40 latitude south with hot and sunny summers) if covered for the winter.

You obviously have no idea what you’re talking about when it comes to palm protection either (apparently). There are people who grow dry palms in far far colder climates than NYC buy covering them in the cold season. There are several people who grow “monster dry climate palms” (to use your term) in CANADA in QUBEC. They are also covered for 5 months (far longer than they would be in NYC). So your are incorrect (again) that they can’t be covered:

 

I don’t know who “we all are” …if you mean misinformed people who pretend to know something about climates and palm culture…then hey no problem, your welcome. I find it laughable that someone who lives in cool/cloudy/high latitude climate thinks they are an expert about palm cultivation and tropical/subtropical climates?  When it comes to Florida …again you obviously have no idea what you’re talking about. I’ve lived in Florida for 26 years (and still own a home there) ….and unlike you KNOW what will grow and not grow (which is very little).
 

While it is true that hot and wet can promote CERTAIN diseases – they are other issues that make palms more sustainable to this (like drought, nutritional deficiencies, insect attack…etc.). The ones in the UK look puny (almost stunted) compared to the ones in Florida, why? Because of lack of heat and sunshine, it takes years for them to get to any appreciable height. Of course, being from up in the UK, you most know little about tropical climates - but most outer tropical climates, espeaclcly tropical savanna climates like south Florida, and a long dry season, that allows palms to dry out fast. Many times, cities like Miami, FT. Lauderdale, Naples, Palm Beach …etc. are RAINLESS in winter and are in such severe drought they have water use restrictions. It’s sunny and dry in winter in Florida…that might be the reason that there are millions of tourists there in winter? LOL

[Subtropical LIS]

4 hours ago, CascadiaPalms said:

I think the "main" theme I get from a palm like the CIDP -- is that it's probably "okay" to grow anywhere, until it's not okay.  And the meaning "it's not okay" is that one event or a prolonged period of time that a locality is susceptible or at risk experiencing.  And I mean this for unprotected palms.  Because you can protect a palm in any zone and "claim" it can grow there.  So places like NYC and Portland.....CIDP will probably grow until the stereotypical weather events make themselves known.

 

Exactly...that is the only point I was trying to make. 

They cover coconut palms in winter in AZ and the warmest parts of CA...and they DO grow there. No they are not as big or robust as the ones in Florida...but they can be grown.  Dry climate palms that are covered in winter grow in Colorado, Michigan, even Canada. LOl.

Add in that for 8 months of the year a CIDP would have far better growing conditions in NYC than anywhere up in the dreary climate of the UK.  To attempt to say the climate of NYC is nowehere near what CIDP needs for cultivation is illogical. 

 

 

[UK_Palms]

9 hours ago, Subtropical LIS said:

It seems you have become sarcastic because your assumptions and misinformed opinions don’t square with the facts. You keep moving the goal post when what you say is proven incorrect. Now your changing (again) that somehow I said CIDP are easy to grow in NYC and should be on every street corner. I said a CIDP could be grown and enjoyed in NYC for many years (or any zone 7/8 climate that is from 40 latitude south with hot and sunny summers) if covered for the winter.

You obviously have no idea what you’re talking about when it comes to palm protection either (apparently). There are people who grow dry palms in far far colder climates than NYC buy covering them in the cold season. There are several people who grow “monster dry climate palms” (to use your term) in CANADA in QUBEC. They are also covered for 5 months (far longer than they would be in NYC). So your are incorrect (again) that they can’t be covered:

 

I don’t know who “we all are” …if you mean misinformed people who pretend to know something about climates and palm culture…then hey no problem, your welcome. I find it laughable that someone who lives in cool/cloudy/high latitude climate thinks they are an expert about palm cultivation and tropical/subtropical climates?  When it comes to Florida …again you obviously have no idea what you’re talking about. I’ve lived in Florida for 26 years (and still own a home there) ….and unlike you KNOW what will grow and not grow (which is very little).
 

While it is true that hot and wet can promote CERTAIN diseases – they are other issues that make palms more sustainable to this (like drought, nutritional deficiencies, insect attack…etc.). The ones in the UK look puny (almost stunted) compared to the ones in Florida, why? Because of lack of heat and sunshine, it takes years for them to get to any appreciable height. Of course, being from up in the UK, you most know little about tropical climates - but most outer tropical climates, espeaclcly tropical savanna climates like south Florida, and a long dry season, that allows palms to dry out fast. Many times, cities like Miami, FT. Lauderdale, Naples, Palm Beach …etc. are RAINLESS in winter and are in such severe drought they have water use restrictions. It’s sunny and dry in winter in Florida…that might be the reason that there are millions of tourists there in winter? LOL

If it was as simple as you claim it to be, there would be CIDP’s and Washies all over the northeast of the USA that are easily protected in winter and able to thrive throughout the rest of the year. However in reality this is just not the case.

Show me one example in NYC for instance of where a CIDP has come through multiple winters with protection? There is none. It just isn’t practical to construct elaborate shelters (which let in sunlight) and rig up heating elements that need to be in place all winter long in that climate as well as some kind of ventilation given the wet-cold and year-round humidity.

We are talking about protection that could give out at any time, or be damaged in storms. Not to mention you would need to make it bigger each year, so it quickly becomes impractical and a mammoth undertaking. Not to mention the cost involved. Also CIDP’s become extremely wide and have menacing thorns like hypodermic needles near the crown. As soon as they start gaining size you will have your work cut out trying to get them sheltered for a zone 7b winter. And it becomes a risk to your own safety. This is why you don’t see people doing it.

There are rare exceptions to that, like that guy in Poland who protects a CIDP, but in general this concept is just not practical. I could probably grow Royals and Wodyetia here with sophisticated shelters, but like why bother!? It’s too much effort for a species that is just being zone pushed too great and will succumb the second my protection is lacking, or once it becomes too big to protect. The same applies for CIDP in NYC. Good luck though, because you will certainly need all the luck you can get attempting a CIDP in the northeast of the USA.

You are naive to insist that it is very doable and that CIDP’s will thrive there, given the clear lack of evidence I.e. examples showing at least some partial success (of which there is none). I suspect people have tried over the years as well, with protection. The OP lost his after an average winter in NYC, despite trying to protect it. So I think you need to wake up and smell the coffee on this one.

You can talk about the UK and southern England being cool, damp, cloudy and having crap summers or whatever all you like, but at the end of the day the winters are pretty mild which CIDP like and the summers are warm and dry. Southern England, coastal Oregon and New Zealand all have excellent CIDP’s with near-perfect crowns, despite very little summer heat. However all these places have mild, damp winters and a dry warmish growing season. So go figure. I was not lecturing you on the climate of Florida or NYC specifically. I was lecturing you on the requirements to grow a CIDP. The fact you place so much emphasis on the growing season outside of winter as a factor for their survival in NYC tells me you are clueless on this one.

Come back in a few years time when you can show off your zone 7 CIDP in Connecticut, after a few years attempting to protect it. I already know that you won’t be able to come back to report on a positive case study however. I am happy to be proven wrong, please. I would love to see a CIDP thriving in NYC and coming through the winters with sophisticated protection, but as I have previously said, it is not feasible or practical.

As for that Washie growing in zone 5 in Canada… he has done very well to keep it going, but it is clearly on borrowed time. Washies are also easier to protect and replenish their crowns quicker than CIDP. Regardless, he won’t be able to protect it forever. Same applies for CIDP or Washingtonia in the northeast of the USA. I mean a ‘bad’ winter will knock out Trachycarpus Fortunei in NYC, even with some protection. So I think you need to come back down to earth pal. 

[Subtropical LIS]

3 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

If it was as simple as you claim it to be, there would be CIDP’s and Washies all over the northeast of the USA that are easily protected in winter and able to thrive throughout the rest of the year. However in reality this is just not the case.

Show me one example in NYC for instance of where a CIDP has come through multiple winters with protection? There is none. It just isn’t practical to construct elaborate shelters (which let in sunlight) and rig up heating elements that need to be in place all winter long in that climate as well as some kind of ventilation given the wet-cold and year-round humidity.

We are talking about protection that could give out at any time, or be damaged in storms. Not to mention you would need to make it bigger each year, so it quickly becomes impractical and a mammoth undertaking. Not to mention the cost involved. Also CIDP’s become extremely wide and have menacing thorns like hypodermic needles near the crown. As soon as they start gaining size you will have your work cut out trying to get them sheltered for a zone 7b winter. And it becomes a risk to your own safety. This is why you don’t see people doing it.

There are rare exceptions to that, like that guy in Poland who protects a CIDP, but in general this concept is just not practical. I could probably grow Royals and Wodyetia here with sophisticated shelters, but like why bother!? It’s too much effort for a species that is just being zone pushed too great and will succumb the second my protection is lacking, or once it becomes too big to protect. The same applies for CIDP in NYC. Good luck though, because you will certainly need all the luck you can get attempting a CIDP in the northeast of the USA.

You are naive to insist that it is very doable and that CIDP’s will thrive there, given the clear lack of evidence I.e. examples showing at least some partial success (of which there is none). I suspect people have tried over the years as well, with protection. The OP lost his after an average winter in NYC, despite trying to protect it. So I think you need to wake up and smell the coffee on this one.

You can talk about the UK and southern England being cool, damp, cloudy and having crap summers or whatever all you like, but at the end of the day the winters are pretty mild which CIDP like and the summers are warm and dry. Southern England, coastal Oregon and New Zealand all have excellent CIDP’s with near-perfect crowns, despite very little summer heat. However all these places have mild, damp winters and a dry warmish growing season. So go figure. I was not lecturing you on the climate of Florida or NYC specifically. I was lecturing you on the requirements to grow a CIDP. The fact you place so much emphasis on the growing season outside of winter as a factor for their survival in NYC tells me you are clueless on this one.

Come back in a few years time when you can show off your zone 7 CIDP in Connecticut, after a few years attempting to protect it. I already know that you won’t be able to come back to report on a positive case study however. I am happy to be proven wrong, please. I would love to see a CIDP thriving in NYC and coming through the winters with sophisticated protection, but as I have previously said, it is not feasible or practical.

As for that Washie growing in zone 5 in Canada… he has done very well to keep it going, but it is clearly on borrowed time. Washies are also easier to protect and replenish their crowns quicker than CIDP. Regardless, he won’t be able to protect it forever. Same applies for CIDP or Washingtonia in the northeast of the USA. I mean a ‘bad’ winter will knock out Trachycarpus Fortunei in NYC, even with some protection. So I think you need to come back down to earth pal. 

Once again you move the goal post – lol. I never said that it was simple. I only said NYC has an 8-month season when CIDP would do fine (even thrive). You make false statements – it seems fair that factual information gets equal time (just as you have under your post you live in Med climate – the UK is fully temperate oceanic, that fact that you wrote shows you lack the basic understanding of world climate).

It was false when you said NYC has “weeks on end of sub 20 F temps” (just as it was false that NYC has “weeks on end of sub-freezing temps”).

It was false that CIDP can’t and don’t grow in more humid climates (they thrive along the humid subtropical East Coast from Florida to at least North Carolina without protection).

It was false when you said that “struggle and are not grown in tropical south Florida” because of humidity and rainfall. That is incorrect, they line the streets by the hundreds in south Florida. There are 100 foot specimens down the street from my home in Florida – lol

 

It is also totally incorrect that palm protection becomes impractical and a mammoth undertaking, especially at the rate CIDP grow. There are people all over zone 5 and 6 (colder than zone 7b in NYC) in the United States/Canada/Europe that overwinter dry climate palms with no problem. Poland is just another example. The OP might have lost his CIDP for many reasons, looking at the size at which he planted it alone is a major factor. Yes, a bad winter will take out of Tracy in NYC – just as they DO in the UK, Spain, even northern Florida! A host of conditions can kill a palm.

It was false when you said a CIDP would never survive being covered.  I also linked a Vid that showed someone up in CANADA who over winters several dry climate palms that grow fine (in Zone 5!). Also, how the heck do I know what is growing/not growing in NYC – I don’t live there and only pass through. I have not stopped at all 23 million homes in the metro areas to examine the landscape – lol. . I DO know climate and how/where palms are endemic too, however. 

Saying something like you could grow “royals” with protection in the UK, proves you lack the knowledge of palm cultivation and their relation to regional climates: Roystonea Regia, native to the Caribbean Island, Florida, and Cuba, needs warm/hot wet conditions 12 months a year to really thrive. Even in summer Royals would never remotely get enough heat, rainfall, or solar radiation to live up in the latitude of the UK. There is not a single month climatically in the UK that even remotely matches the climate that a Royal needs to survive – that’s the point. That is NOT the case with a CIDP NYC. 6 to 8 months a year a CIDP in NYC would have decent growing conditions for CIDP.  I have no idea why you are bringing New Zealand or coastal OR into the conversation – they are both far south of the UK, with much stronger sun angles/summer temps/ and less stormy?

Finally, I don’t grow CIPD in along the Connecticut coast (but if a robusta from a drier climate does very well, I’m sure I could grow a CIDP too) since they are all over the place (like weeds) around my city in Florida.  My favorite palm is the coconut palm. Let me know when it looks like this on a December day up in the UK – lol

[Las Palmas Norte]

I'm getting the popcorn ready now. 😁

[Jonathan]

3 hours ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

I'm getting the popcorn ready now. 😁

Lol.

Ultimately, if someone wants to mess around with palms in New York, let 'em!

Take a chill pill guys...and keep it friendly.

 

[Subtropical LIS]

3 hours ago, Jonathan said:

Lol.

Ultimately, if someone wants to mess around with palms in New York, let 'em!

Take a chill pill guys...and keep it friendly.

 

Exactly.

There are people in zone 4b in Canada, Russia, Poland, Sweden..etc who protect palms for crying out loud - lol...hardly a challenge in zone 7b in NYC.  The op deserves accurate information. 

NYC has a long season of strong sunshine, heat, and ample rainfall (as do many climates from 40 latitude south)...,any plam grows rapidly in those conditions.  That's why 99% of all palms on the planet are endemic to locations below 40 latitude.   

 

 

[UK_Palms]

8 hours ago, Subtropical LIS said:

Once again you move the goal post – lol. I never said that it was simple. I only said NYC has an 8-month season when CIDP would do fine (even thrive). You make false statements – it seems fair that factual information gets equal time (just as you have under your post you live in Med climate – the UK is fully temperate oceanic, that fact that you wrote shows you lack the basic understanding of world climate).

It was false when you said NYC has “weeks on end of sub 20 F temps” (just as it was false that NYC has “weeks on end of sub-freezing temps”).

It was false that CIDP can’t and don’t grow in more humid climates (they thrive along the humid subtropical East Coast from Florida to at least North Carolina without protection).

It was false when you said that “struggle and are not grown in tropical south Florida” because of humidity and rainfall. That is incorrect, they line the streets by the hundreds in south Florida. There are 100 foot specimens down the street from my home in Florida – lol

 

It is also totally incorrect that palm protection becomes impractical and a mammoth undertaking, especially at the rate CIDP grow. There are people all over zone 5 and 6 (colder than zone 7b in NYC) in the United States/Canada/Europe that overwinter dry climate palms with no problem. Poland is just another example. The OP might have lost his CIDP for many reasons, looking at the size at which he planted it alone is a major factor. Yes, a bad winter will take out of Tracy in NYC – just as they DO in the UK, Spain, even northern Florida! A host of conditions can kill a palm.

It was false when you said a CIDP would never survive being covered.  I also linked a Vid that showed someone up in CANADA who over winters several dry climate palms that grow fine (in Zone 5!). Also, how the heck do I know what is growing/not growing in NYC – I don’t live there and only pass through. I have not stopped at all 23 million homes in the metro areas to examine the landscape – lol. . I DO know climate and how/where palms are endemic too, however. 

Saying something like you could grow “royals” with protection in the UK, proves you lack the knowledge of palm cultivation and their relation to regional climates: Roystonea Regia, native to the Caribbean Island, Florida, and Cuba, needs warm/hot wet conditions 12 months a year to really thrive. Even in summer Royals would never remotely get enough heat, rainfall, or solar radiation to live up in the latitude of the UK. There is not a single month climatically in the UK that even remotely matches the climate that a Royal needs to survive – that’s the point. That is NOT the case with a CIDP NYC. 6 to 8 months a year a CIDP in NYC would have decent growing conditions for CIDP.  I have no idea why you are bringing New Zealand or coastal OR into the conversation – they are both far south of the UK, with much stronger sun angles/summer temps/ and less stormy?

Finally, I don’t grow CIPD in along the Connecticut coast (but if a robusta from a drier climate does very well, I’m sure I could grow a CIDP too) since they are all over the place (like weeds) around my city in Florida.  My favorite palm is the coconut palm. Let me know when it looks like this on a December day up in the UK – lol

 

You are talking absolute rubbish! You keep mentioning an 8 month growing season where CIDP would flourish in the northeast USA but that is completely irrelevant if they can't get through the winters. There has NEVER been a single image posted on here of a flourishing CIDP in NYC or anywhere in that area. Not one single image of a CIDP that gets elaborate winter protection, which sails through each winter and actively grows year on year into an even half respectable specimen.

Given there are 20 million people in NYC alone, you would think someone would have attempted to protect a CIDP each winter with one of these elaborate methods and then grown it on inside that mammoth UHI in New York. No doubt a few have attempted it over the years. And failed. Similar to what happened with the OP's one. It's just too difficult and impractical. But I do hope someone can actually do this, eventually. That is assuming the humidity and year-round wet climate doesn't produce further issues when it comes to growing one, besides the winter cold alone. The jury is certainly out on that aspect as well.

If you can construct a large polycarbonate greenhouse type structure that provides some sunlight penetration, and then obviously heat it during winter freezes, as well as keep the ground below it dry with good drainage, then I don't doubt that you could grow on a CIDP to a half respectable size in the NYC area. I am not saying it is an impossible feat to do. But there are financial costs involved and the actual process is far from practical. Within 3-4 years you would need to construct a 10 foot high polycarbonate box at an even bigger cost. And then where does it stop? You would need a 20 foot high box within a decade and so forth.

The guy in Poland heats his 15 foot high 'box' with a thermostat system and he has a fan running inside. Such a setup is not cheap and it costs further money to run. I certainly wouldn't trust myself to put together an elaborate setup like that. The amount of work and money involved is extraordinary. Which will make it all the more costly and sad when he can no loner protect it and has to let it fend for itself. Just like any NYC or northeast USA grown CIDP, that one in Poland is also on borrowed time technically. He won't be building 20-30 foot tall shelters, especially as he gets older himself. I think he is already like 60! The cost to heat such a large shelter over winter would be immense as well.

 

20 hours ago, Subtropical LIS said:

Add in that for 8 months of the year a CIDP would have far better growing conditions in NYC than anywhere up in the dreary climate of the UK.  To attempt to say the climate of NYC is nowehere near what CIDP needs for cultivation is illogical. 

The UK is at latitude 50-58N. It's pointless trying to throw shade our way as we have the furthest CIDP's from the equator (including seeding CIDP at 55N), as well as having the furthest crownshaft palms from the equator as well. Tresco probably has the biggest Rhopalostylis habitat outside of New Zealand. Relevant to latitude, the UK has the most impressive palms on the planet. Obviously you can grow way more exotic palms in Florida and the possibilities are endless down there, sure, but that is latitude 25-30N. Given the UK's northern latitude and the extent of what we are growing up here, UK palm growers are as qualified as anyone to weigh in on the hardiness and zone pushing topic. Hence why I was discussing the prospects for growing CIDP in NYC.

If there is one thing we know about here in the UK, it is CIDP's. I know first hand that summer heat is largely irrelevant (they grow at the same speed in London as they do in Los Angeles). It's the mild winters that you need to grow CIDP and you really need a dryish period with low humidity. Year round wet, especially after a cold winter and if they have been covered up for long periods, is bad news for fungal problems and crown rot. You can ignore this, but the OP will just encounter these issues again and again...

 

1 hour ago, Subtropical LIS said:

Exactly.

There are people in zone 4b in Canada, Russia, Poland, Sweden..etc who protect palms for crying out loud - lol...hardly a challenge in zone 7b in NYC.  The op deserves accurate information. 

NYC has a long season of strong sunshine, heat, and ample rainfall (as do many climates from 40 latitude south)...,any plam grows rapidly in those conditions.  That's why 99% of all palms on the planet are endemic to locations below 40 latitude.   

 

 

This is not "accurate information". You would be very hard pressed to find any palms growing in 4b areas. It would be a mammoth task to keep them alive, even with the most sophisticated protection. As for Sweden, you've maybe got some Trachycarpus in the far south and that is about it. Claiming it is "hardly a challenge in zone 7b NYC" is contradicted by the severe lack of palms in NYC. There is hardly anything growing there. You may be able to grow Sabal Minor and Trachycarpus Fortunei with some ease (if it is protected during a once a decade cold event), but other than that, it will be a struggle.

You are completely ignoring the year-round wet/humid aspect in NYC which adds a further complication to the cold winters. The humidity and water table complicates post-winter recovery, especially for stuff like CIDP and Washingtonia. That is probably the main reason the OP's palm struggled and did not regrow properly in the spring/summer. Again, you can choose to ignore/disregard this aspect, but the OP will just encounter this issue again and again...

Also, I'm not sure what your account name used to be, but clearly you've had a rebrand in recent months. The name is new, but the account has clearly been around for a while. Credible/reputable accounts don't usually change their name and rebrand. Obviously that is your decision and you can do whatever you please, but that is a bit of a red flag there with you.

[Jonathan]

10 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

Relevant to latitude, the UK has the most impressive palms on the planet.

Why do you do this to yourself? 

Mate, some of the personal attacks in that last post were pretty uncalled for.

Again, please consider this suggestion to chill out...

[UK_Palms]

1 hour ago, Jonathan said:

Why do you do this to yourself? 

Mate, some of the personal attacks in that last post were pretty uncalled for.

Again, please consider this suggestion to chill out...

Cry me a river fella. I have provided valid information for the OP about the climatic requirements to get CIDP to survive, as well as the extent at which they must be protected in unfavourable areas. All that other LIS guy has done is dismiss it all, claim that I am misinforming the OP and then he throws shade at the UK in general. I don’t see you addressing his comments!?

I give as good as I get. The only difference is that I am saying it exactly how it is in regards to zone pushing a CIDP in NYC or the northeast of the USA. He can downplay the extent/effort involved in keeping a CIDP alive there, or bang on about irrelevant summer warmth, or how the UK weather is crap, but at the end of the day there has never been a CIDP successfully grown in the northeast USA. Why is that? And then you have this LIS guy implying that it should be fairly straight forward.

For transparency / context, this is the protection involved to get a 15 foot CIDP through winter in Poland. Zone 7a, although NYC has had colder ultimate lows than him in recent years. He also gets less snow as well there. And that part of Poland is drier and less humid than NYC as well with a lower water table too. So even if you replicated this level of winter protection for a decent sized specimen, you would still possibly encounter fungal issues and crown rot in NYC that impact spring/summer recovery.

 

Looks easy doesn’t it. 🙄

[jwitt]

Well, looks like proof a colder zone(,Poland-7a) than (7b)NYC can grow them with protection.  Who would have thought?

If dryness is NYC concern with CIDP, an increase of the diurnal temperature would provide the answer. Many way to do this,  both passive or active. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Subtropical LIS]

16 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

 

You are talking absolute rubbish! You keep mentioning an 8 month growing season where CIDP would flourish in the northeast USA but that is completely irrelevant if they can't get through the winters. There has NEVER been a single image posted on here of a flourishing CIDP in NYC or anywhere in that area. Not one single image of a CIDP that gets elaborate winter protection, which sails through each winter and actively grows year on year into an even half respectable specimen.

Given there are 20 million people in NYC alone, you would think someone would have attempted to protect a CIDP each winter with one of these elaborate methods and then grown it on inside that mammoth UHI in New York. No doubt a few have attempted it over the years. And failed. Similar to what happened with the OP's one. It's just too difficult and impractical. But I do hope someone can actually do this, eventually. That is assuming the humidity and year-round wet climate doesn't produce further issues when it comes to growing one, besides the winter cold alone. The jury is certainly out on that aspect as well.

If you can construct a large polycarbonate greenhouse type structure that provides some sunlight penetration, and then obviously heat it during winter freezes, as well as keep the ground below it dry with good drainage, then I don't doubt that you could grow on a CIDP to a half respectable size in the NYC area. I am not saying it is an impossible feat to do. But there are financial costs involved and the actual process is far from practical. Within 3-4 years you would need to construct a 10 foot high polycarbonate box at an even bigger cost. And then where does it stop? You would need a 20 foot high box within a decade and so forth.

The guy in Poland heats his 15 foot high 'box' with a thermostat system and he has a fan running inside. Such a setup is not cheap and it costs further money to run. I certainly wouldn't trust myself to put together an elaborate setup like that. The amount of work and money involved is extraordinary. Which will make it all the more costly and sad when he can no loner protect it and has to let it fend for itself. Just like any NYC or northeast USA grown CIDP, that one in Poland is also on borrowed time technically. He won't be building 20-30 foot tall shelters, especially as he gets older himself. I think he is already like 60! The cost to heat such a large shelter over winter would be immense as well.

 

The UK is at latitude 50-58N. It's pointless trying to throw shade our way as we have the furthest CIDP's from the equator (including seeding CIDP at 55N), as well as having the furthest crownshaft palms from the equator as well. Tresco probably has the biggest Rhopalostylis habitat outside of New Zealand. Relevant to latitude, the UK has the most impressive palms on the planet. Obviously you can grow way more exotic palms in Florida and the possibilities are endless down there, sure, but that is latitude 25-30N. Given the UK's northern latitude and the extent of what we are growing up here, UK palm growers are as qualified as anyone to weigh in on the hardiness and zone pushing topic. Hence why I was discussing the prospects for growing CIDP in NYC.

If there is one thing we know about here in the UK, it is CIDP's. I know first hand that summer heat is largely irrelevant (they grow at the same speed in London as they do in Los Angeles). It's the mild winters that you need to grow CIDP and you really need a dryish period with low humidity. Year round wet, especially after a cold winter and if they have been covered up for long periods, is bad news for fungal problems and crown rot. You can ignore this, but the OP will just encounter these issues again and again...

 

This is not "accurate information". You would be very hard pressed to find any palms growing in 4b areas. It would be a mammoth task to keep them alive, even with the most sophisticated protection. As for Sweden, you've maybe got some Trachycarpus in the far south and that is about it. Claiming it is "hardly a challenge in zone 7b NYC" is contradicted by the severe lack of palms in NYC. There is hardly anything growing there. You may be able to grow Sabal Minor and Trachycarpus Fortunei with some ease (if it is protected during a once a decade cold event), but other than that, it will be a struggle.

You are completely ignoring the year-round wet/humid aspect in NYC which adds a further complication to the cold winters. The humidity and water table complicates post-winter recovery, especially for stuff like CIDP and Washingtonia. That is probably the main reason the OP's palm struggled and did not regrow properly in the spring/summer. Again, you can choose to ignore/disregard this aspect, but the OP will just encounter this issue again and again...

Also, I'm not sure what your account name used to be, but clearly you've had a rebrand in recent months. The name is new, but the account has clearly been around for a while. Credible/reputable accounts don't usually change their name and rebrand. Obviously that is your decision and you can do whatever you please, but that is a bit of a red flag there with you.

You not really making any sense?

If a CIDP were covered - how would in “not get through winter”? How do people in Canada, Russia, Poland…etc.  get palms through winter? How do they get cactus and other dry climate plants through the wet, cloudy winters of the UK? Additionally, I think we covered the fact that in lower latitude climates (40 latitude south), with long hot summers and intense sun angles for several months… rainfall and humidity have less of an impact on CIDP. We KNOW this because CIDP grow by the thousands in the hot and wet subtropical southeastern USA from Houston to Charleston, SC with daily summer tropical downpours(I think we covered this already - LOL)

 

As to the climate of NYC (and again, not trying to be mean, here, I mean that truly) …you seem to lack the basic understanding of world climatology.

NYC is not wet and humid year -round. In fact, very dry continental and modified polar air is frequently present for several months from Dec – March. This air is NOT humid…dew points in the teens occur frequently (dew points in the teens are common in the desert, for example). Winter air in NYC is often very dry (skin cracks). Moreover, like many climates between 30 and 40 latitudes, NYC can have periodic episodes of long rainless periods. I’m not up in NYC now - but from what I’ve read, they have had very little rain since September 1^st (2 inches/5 cm in the last 3 months). Right now portions on NYC down through the mid-Atlantic states are DROUGHT (and they were in 2021 as well):

 

 

 

Another factor to consider (and again I’m not trying to mean here – I know the English are sensitive about their climate, just trying to educate), living at the high latitude you live at (52 north), I don’t think you fully appreciate how fast moisture evaporates in lower latitude climates.: In a high latitude climate like the UK, moisture is slow to evaporate. Not only is sunshine intensity relatively weak - but the modestly cool summer average high temperatures also slow evaporation.

In lower latitude, hot summer climates the situation is the reverse - the sun is so strong and temp as so hot, that moisture is quickly evaporated. Consider that locations on the Atlantic coast from Miami to NYC have heavy summer thundershowers almost daily, when the rain pours down like a monsoon in India (lol), yet with an hour the ground is nearly dry as steam rises from the pavement (and the temp moves toward 29 – 34 C again). A CIDP in NYC would have no problem with too much moisture in NYC in summer, for the same reason they don’t in Orlando, New Orleans, or Charleston, SC.  

Finally, that is up to the OP if he/she is or wants to construct a structure and what type. However, my guess is (at least in NYC), one would not have to heat a shelter with anything more than C9 Christmas lights (about $15 at most local stores - lol). I do this for mangos in Florida and my Robusta in CT, and it works fine. The financial costs involved would be minimal…since any palm shelter in NYC would only be used about 90 days a year. If people in Canada in zone 5 can enjoy Washingtonia and Windmill palms for many years, I don’t know why someone down in zone 7b couldn’t do the same.

For some strange reason...you seem super angry that someone is growing palms in NYC.  Anyone can see that. I suppose that is a result of living at 52 N...less than a 1000 miles from the arctic circle.  I know you are heading into a tough time of year up there (the gloomy climate makes angry people.)...but don't take it out on the OP or the rest of us "mate".

 

 

[Jonathan]

8 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

Cry me a river fella.

Groan...subtle as a brick.

Ok, done with you.