3am tonight….  It’s in the 60s but a cold, dry wind out there.  You can feel the coming change in the air.   The wind is ripping pretty hard, coming in from the west right now.  Things are getting whipped around pretty good.  Some of the light leaved stuff is going to be a bit tattered.  Tough stuff like Sargentii isn’t even moving in the wind, but the small Teddy Bears are getting thrashed all around. 

 

Don’t forget to look up if walking around the Royals….  Stuff is flying off them already.   Your skull will get split wide open if hit by one of these. 

Edited January 29, 20224 yr by Looking Glass

Just now, Looking Glass said:

3am tonight….  It’s in the 60s but a cold, dry wind out there.  You can feel the coming change in the air.   The wind is ripping pretty hard, coming in from the west right now.  Things are getting whipped around pretty good.  Some of the light leaved stuff is going to be a bit tattered.  Tough stuff like Sargentii isn’t even moving in the wind, but the small Teddy Bears are getting thrashed all around. ...

Wind gusts getting real bad here, thrashing stuff against the house, broken fronds, hiccups in the power... It is trash day and many garbage cans along the street are being emptied prematurely. Empty pots are making a break for it. Wind is making it so cold while inspecting the damage. Like a warning for what's coming.

Ryan

37f and windy here this morning in NE FL. Going to a high of like 45! Finalizing wrapping/covering two palms that are a bit questionable, others should get through the low of 28f early Sunday morning no problem.

Cold tolerance data has its limitations.  Typically if a teddy bear can survive 26F, it might die as a potted plant a few degrees warmer.  Defoliation typically happns before death and represents a setback for your palm.  Setbacks can reduce immune system effectiveness or attract plant eating bug.  For this reason I don't really fully expose my seedlings to the front to harden them, but I don't bring them inside either at 3-10 gallon size.  For this front I put teddy bears(3-5 gallon), dictyosperma album(3-10 gallon), satakentia(2gal), and dypsis pembana(3-5gallon). and chambyronias macrocarpa hookeri + houailou under livistona saribus canopy in a somewhat wind protected area near the house to limit the cold they will se by a few degrees.  If they get damaged in that protected position, it means they are probably not cold hardy enough and it might be wise to not plant them.  My only real question mark is the dictyosperma album var rubrum and var furfuracea as some report them to be 10b, but with not so much data in florida 9b/10a, its also possible it just doesn't like long cool winters in other climates.  If I get to 32F they will surely see 35F and possibly lower with the wind out there.    

1 hour ago, sonoranfans said:

Cold tolerance data has its limitations.  Typically if a teddy bear can survive 26F, it might die as a potted plant a few degrees warmer.  Defoliation typically happns before death and represents a setback for your palm.  Setbacks can reduce immune system effectiveness or attract plant eating bug.  For this reason I don't really fully expose my seedlings to the front to harden them, but I don't bring them inside either at 3-10 gallon size.  For this front I put teddy bears(3-5 gallon), dictyosperma album(3-10 gallon), satakentia(2gal), and dypsis pembana(3-5gallon). and chambyronias macrocarpa hookeri + houailou under livistona saribus canopy in a somewhat wind protected area near the house to limit the cold they will se by a few degrees.  If they get damaged in that protected position, it means they are probably not cold hardy enough and it might be wise to not plant them.  My only real question mark is the dictyosperma album var rubrum and var furfuracea as some report them to be 10b, but with not so much data in florida 9b/10a, its also possible it just doesn't like long cool winters in other climates.  If I get to 32F they will surely see 35F and possibly lower with the wind out there.  

I left a 7g C. Macrocarpa out in the backyard nursery area for the same reason.  The triple that are ~3 feet from the house did fine last year with backyard dips to 28F (nursery dips to about 30-31F).  There are two big queens directly over the nursery for summer shade and frost protection.  With no frost they had just a little bit of yellowing on the tips, but no damage while the planted ones in the backyard defoliated and died.  I planted two of the identical 7g ones up front where it's 3F or so warmer.  If they can't handle this cold front, then there's no point in trying to grow them at my house, at least not until I have some canopy.

I found similar results (so far) with Dictyosperma album/rubrum.  The one I planted up front is about 3' tall and got badly bronzed by the frost last Sunday night at 35F.  I have a triple near my nursery area that looks fine with no frost and 32F, and another undamaged double in a slightly frost-protected spot in the NW corner at 35F.  The only one with visible damage was exposed to frost.  Last winter was pretty much the same at 28F and 30F with frost...the ones not exposed to frost were totally fine.

I took most of my seedlings inside the garage.  Even if they'd be fine with 3-5 hours at around 30F, there would definitely be some setback.  In quart and gallon pots they are easy enough to move, so I'd rather move them back out on Monday afternoon with no damage.

4 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

Cold tolerance data has its limitations. ...

I am also using this cold blast to test a few species. I have no data, no cold tolerance info on these, just theories. When I brought in a group of a type, I left two or three individuals outside in an experimentation area to see what happens.

On a side note, while watching the local news, they where doing reports from various farms and nurseries showing how growers are preparing for the cold. One reporter was at Redland Nursery. The report had a smattering of video clips, including a shot of large Licuala grandis in the background. Those who were interviewed appeared to be cautiously optimistic.

Ryan

That’s what I always say try it yourself! In our area there is no data that I know of about heat tolerance and that is the most important thing for us so experiment experiment experiment and find things out for yourself!!!

Preparations finished a few minutes ago. Oil heaters up & running under the Mark V car cover. I added about a dozen potted Chamaedoreas to the que.

57.4F at 2 p.m. likely the high for the day. Howling wind.

 

I also decided to cover six palms I really care about, 4 with frost bags I bought last fall and two more with blankets & sheets.

Golden Adonidia

Areca concinna

Areca catechu

Areca catechu dwarfs x3

How do the big growers / nurseries do it during the cold snaps? There's tons of nursery stock. 

 

 

if possible that frost cloth should really go all the way to the ground. 

test for this one

2 hours ago, Alan_Tampa said:

if possible that frost cloth should really go all the way to the ground. 

Had to make do

Yard covered up, garage full, greenhouse closed with heaters running. Some in the yard still covered from last weekend. Hopefully we get lucky and stay above freezing! Some probably didn’t need to be covered, but didn’t want to take a chance on frost destroying the fronds.

9 hours ago, Barry said:

Yard covered up, garage full, greenhouse closed with heaters running. Some in the yard still covered from last weekend. Hopefully we get lucky and stay above freezing! Some probably didn’t need to be covered, but didn’t want to take a chance on frost destroying the fronds.

Wow - great efforts for your palms!!! I really hope nothing serious happens to your plants/palms left

outside!!

Btw., your garden looks spectacular! I didn't quote your first picture but is that huge "hanging thing" in

the center a platycerium? (I just got hooked with these plants lately...)

However, all the best and fingers crossed!

 

regards

Lars

 

 

2 hours ago, palmfriend said:

Wow - great efforts for your palms!!! I really hope nothing serious happens to your plants/palms left

outside!!

Btw., your garden looks spectacular! I didn't quote your first picture but is that huge "hanging thing" in

the center a platycerium? (I just got hooked with these plants lately...)

However, all the best and fingers crossed!

 

regards

Lars

 

 

Lars,

Thank you, it is a lot of work, but it is my stress relief. Never seem to get it all neat and tidy at once. Yes, I acquired the large playcerium last year. A friend of a friend was moving in Tampa and couldn’t take it. Major score for free!

37.8 degrees at 6 am, should stay above freezing., greenhouse at 54 degrees. Winds are light, will check for frost shortly.

 

Barry

55 minutes ago, Barry said:

Lars,

Thank you, it is a lot of work, but it is my stress relief. Never seem to get it all neat and tidy at once. Yes, I acquired the large playcerium last year. A friend of a friend was moving in Tampa and couldn’t take it. Major score for free!

37.8 degrees at 6 am, should stay above freezing., greenhouse at 54 degrees. Winds are light, will check for frost shortly.

 

Barry

Barry, 

Thank for your reply!

Regarding the platycerium - nice score!

I hope everything pulls through well - 

Lars

 

@Barry I don’t understand this frost thing if it’s 37.8 degrees I would think you don’t need to worry about frost that’s along way above 32!!

18 minutes ago, 96720 said:

@Barry I don’t understand this frost thing if it’s 37.8 degrees I would think you don’t need to worry about frost that’s along way above 32!!

Frost is possible at 38 degrees, with no wind and clear skies. Does not have to get to 32 degrees for frost to form. Last Monday morning, areas east of here had heavy frost while still above freezing.

I just bottomed out at 37.0, starting to slowly head up.

If the air is 37.8 degrees F, the plant is not necessariy 37.8F, heat transfer must occur for those temps to equilibrate.  Heat comes from nearby buildings and rises from the ground available to be trapped by canopy in low wind conditions.  Heat transfer is a bit too complicated to detail here but the gist of it is that ice(frost) transfers heat >100x more rapidly than a gas like air.  Doubt that?  Take a dry sauna at 190F then jump into a bath at 190F or just touch an iron skillet at 190F(it will burn you pretty quickly).  So if the frost is formed the frost is 32F or lower (if ambient is below 32F) and it is touching the plant.  And remember that once the frost melts, it draws a lot of heat out of the plant as well, extending the damage/time in contact with freezing temps.  So, don't think of ambient temp, think leaf temperatures, and that is considerably more complicated.  Subfreezing frosts increase the rate heat draw out of the plant as well, and the temperature of the contacting frost could be subfreezing if the ambient is subfreezing temps.

Air temperatures are generally representative of about 2 metres (6 to 7 feet) above the ground. Profile of air below this level can be lower on a still, clear nights. This means that smaller plants/palms are more susceptible to frost based on the cold radiative cooling of the air (i.e colder air is denser and heavier). Technically frost at above freezing levels (above 2 metres) is classified as a ground frost due to the cold pooling takes place close to the ground. For an air frost, the ambient level above 2 metres needs to also fall below 0C or 32F.

This has been an issue here in Portugal recently based on prolonged anticyclonic conditions and long night hours of radiative cooling with light winds and clear skies. Obviously the upper air temperature, the dewpoint and strength of the wind play a very subtle but important part. But values between 3C and 5C (37 to 41F) above the 2 metre level have been a regular happening during this month of January  through persistent high pressure cells - and this based on no obvious cold upper airmass such as in Florida right now.  

So, based on radiative cooling and the risk of near freezing at ground level (however briefly at dawn on some nights) it has still required some protection for some of the more tender seedlings planted out in my garden, despite the absence of any air frosts and values never falling once below 0C 32F.  Also with equally clear days, the sun has rebounded the temperature regularly during the day towards 16C or 61F. With the days drawing out values look set to get closer to 20C heading through February. So this has mitigated the requirements for overnight protection to some degree.

Those of you in Florida though will have many more tender palms and exotics than I have here in Portugal (relatively speaking), so the brevity of the cold snap you are seeing is compensated in this way for the need for a lot of protection.

This is obviously not a climate/weather comparison between this part of southern Europe and that of sub tropical Florida because there obviously are distinct differences - but it is a comparison of temperature/protective needs based on overnights getting into the mid to upper thirties.

Edited January 30, 20224 yr by petiole10

So far the only victims are the bananas of course and the Alocasia. Haven’t unwrapped the couple palms I covered. Going to wait until later this morning.

1 hour ago, 96720 said:

@Barry I don’t understand this frost thing if it’s 37.8 degrees I would think you don’t need to worry about frost that’s along way above 32!!

Here's a good article on Temperature measurement .       https://weatherworksinc.com/news/temperature-measurement .

5 Ft. above the ground recommended , over grass or soil . 

Here is the NWS Standard .     https://www.nws.noaa.gov/directives/sym/pd01013002curr.pdf

I am a great believer in Standards when possible for most everything .  Without standards , nothing can be trusted to be meeting such things as  Strength , Type of material , Durability , Ingredients  , Efficacy   etc .

 Last Monday  , we had a cold morning here in my town.   I surveyed my yard with a hand held digital thermometer . A variation of about 2.5 degrees from Canopy to open area , and about 2' of elevation was observed.  At the coldest area , at 5' the temp. was 33.5 , but 3/4 " above the frosty grass , it was 31.3.     Frost on rooves, and on open grass in the neighborhood . 

  This morning , here , the range was 32.6  to  31.1 .  Canopy sure helps .   I went to the PWS's near to me and that is a pretty good average of the area .  Very near to the ICW , on a Ridge , and generally Oak-y .

1 hour ago, 96720 said:

@Barry I don’t understand this frost thing if it’s 37.8 degrees I would think you don’t need to worry about frost that’s along way above 32!!

Frost is formed due to the effects of radiant heat loss from warm bodies towards cold bodies.  Essentially on a clear night any upwards-facing object with a clear view of the sky is radiating towards absolute zero ( -460F!!! ) of space.  The amount of heat loss is proportional to the difference in temperature between the two bodies.  So a 32F plant you'd think is cold, but it's actually radiating heat towards something that is -460F!  It's a lot more complicated, obviously, but that's the basic concept. 

The atmosphere and clouds get in the way, but that's why frost forms on the tops of things and not the bottom.  An oak tree may form frost on the top leaves, but the plants underneath are technically radiating heat towards the underside of the oak.  So their heat loss is from a plant at 32F towards an oak that may only be a few degrees cooler...thus they are "insulated" from heat loss and frost formation.

A windy night also stirs up the air and prevents easy frost formation because you don't get "cold inversion."  That's where the air at ground level is colder than a few feet up, directly because of the above-mentioned radiation loss.  To get frost at 38F it needs to be a clear sky and not windy...then you get maximum surface cooling of the plant leaves and cold inversion at ground level. 

So that’s why my running drippers all night on a cold night helps prevent frost 

@Barry looks like you've got quite the jungle there, would love to see pics of it when everything is unwrapped. 

7 hours ago, Jesse PNW said:

@Barry looks like you've got quite the jungle there, would love to see pics of it when everything is unwrapped. 

Jesse,

Thank,you, will get some pics up once it gets uncovered and cleaned up.

 Bottomed out at 37F (4am to 7am or so)  here in Melbourne Beach, Florida this morning.

On 1/30/2022 at 6:30 AM, 96720 said:

@Barry I don’t understand this frost thing if it’s 37.8 degrees I would think you don’t need to worry about frost that’s along way above 32!!

Frost can occur, and even be moderate to heavy at temps up to 37F when on raised surfaces, like plant leaves, windshields and tops of cars, rooftops, etc.  Here where I live, I have had juvenile Coconut Palms in pots make it through moderate frosts and even 3 inches of snow in an unexpected snowstorm with temps down to 31.8F unprotected, with only minor to moderate freeze/frost injury.  I really don't understand WHY a lot of people claim that Coconut Palms can't take frosts or freezes at all, when I have seen numerous evidence of them being able to, even when young, it temps are not too low, and the duration of such weather is not long at all, and as long as such events don't happen on a regular basis, but rather are rare in the life of the palms.

John 

On 1/30/2022 at 6:55 AM, Barry said:

Frost is possible at 38 degrees, with no wind and clear skies. Does not have to get to 32 degrees for frost to form. Last Monday morning, areas east of here had heavy frost while still above freezing.

I just bottomed out at 37.0, starting to slowly head up.

What kind of weather station do you have?  I would like to get a good, accurate one, especially for recording daily, and monthly high/low temps.

John

John, 

Ambient WS-2902C

Pretty happy with this one, the wind anemometer is not accurate. But I haven’t tried to calibrate it. Have it mounted on pole on roof, about 20 ft above ground level. Price is very reasonably, got from Amazon March 2018, time flys! So it has held up pretty good, almost 4 years old. Might have a newer version out now.

Barry

The weather channel said iguanas were falling out of trees it was so cold in Florida is that true?

1 minute ago, 96720 said:

The weather channel said iguanas were falling out of trees it was so cold in Florida is that true?

Yup... it's raining reptiles.

Ryan

That’s hard to believe! 

1 minute ago, 96720 said:

That’s hard to believe! 

Hard to believe until you trip over one or your dog brings you one as a gift.

Ryan

How cold was it in your area?

4 hours ago, 96720 said:

The weather channel said iguanas were falling out of trees it was so cold in Florida is that true?

They start to go into suspended animation in the 40s.   They wake back up when it warms up later in the day.  

https://www.palmbeachpost.com/story/news/2022/01/31/frozen-iguanas-florida-weather-photos-twitter-instagram-facebook/9282167002/?fbclid=IwAR2kGa1jG_DMFEYpL_tIyeoM4_f6zeRb2-2dFP02lbMc0E-cJHpZcUI5rHo

It happens every year.  

Edited February 1, 20224 yr by Looking Glass

4 hours ago, Barry said:

John, 

Ambient WS-2902C

Pretty happy with this one, the wind anemometer is not accurate. But I haven’t tried to calibrate it. Have it mounted on pole on roof, about 20 ft above ground level. Price is very reasonably, got from Amazon March 2018, time flys! So it has held up pretty good, almost 4 years old. Might have a newer version out now.

Barry

Thanks, Barry.  I really appreciate it.  Locating it on a pole on the roof, I think would be really good for accurately measuring rainfall without any interference from any nearby objects or tree limbs, but I would like the temperature sensor to be closer to the ground, like no more than 2 ft. to 2.5ft. above the ground in order to get a more accurate temp reading close to the ground where my trees and shrubs are planted.  It would be nice if you could have multiple sensors, located in different areas, like the temp sensor near the ground in an open area without any overhead canopy, but the rain and wind sensors mounted on a pole high up on the roof.

John

4 hours ago, 96720 said:

The weather channel said iguanas were falling out of trees it was so cold in Florida is that true?

Unfortunately, yes.  But I think it can happen any time temps drop down below 40F in coastal South Florida, where it is very rare for temps to get that low.

John

4 hours ago, 96720 said:

The weather channel said iguanas were falling out of trees it was so cold in Florida is that true?

No need to buy chicken at the store this week.

26 minutes ago, amh said:

No need to buy chicken at the store this week.

“Chicken of the trees”….   and that’s for real too.