To protect or not protect??

[teddytn]

I used to struggle with the idea of protecting palms and other plants I have planted. Losing plants hurt me in the beginning of my plant collecting, and for the longest time vowed to only plant things hardy enough to survive unprotected rock solid at my house. I’ve adjusted that and have come to a middle ground. Everything gets protected first and possibly second year in the ground. During really bad weather events I’ll always mulch around the base and crown of plants that don’t really need protection anyway. 
Honestly could care less about the snow, I’ve yet to see a palm in my yard affected by it, it’s the cold especially with palms in the ground for their first winter. Been below freezing for a few days, and the low tonight is no bueno. That 9f will happen in the early hours of tomorrow morning. Sabal minor and needle palm laugh at the winter weather here, still put their winter coats on though. Sabal minor below first year in the ground, just put pine needles in the crown/ around the base. Agaves under bins with canvas drop cloths over the top.Good sized Sabal minor mccurtain, laughs at the winter here. Still put pine needles around the spear. Good practice imo, keeping them as healthy as possible and ready to grow as soon as spring hits.In my experience needle palms spear is sensitive the first year in the ground after that the entire plant is rock solid. First winter very important to protect. Early this morning when snow first startedSame needle a few hours later after some accumulation Stinking cedar torreya taxifolia, threw some pine needles around the base of it. My grandma always used to yell at me “put your coat on!” Making sure all my plant kids have their winter coats on lol. 

[amh]

I wouldn't worry about the minors, but the others may need some covering. Hopefully someone with more experience can reply.

My first year Sabal minors already experienced about 15F with absolutely no protection and are still, literally growing.

[teddytn]

Good sized Sabal minor doesn’t need any help here. Still got pine needles. Early in the dayAfter some snow. Everyone says it, but the snow does act as a natural blanket and insulate plants on its own. First year in the ground Sabal louisiana in the hut behind it. Medium sized needle palm doesn’t need any help, still got some pine needles around the main spears and the smaller offsets around the base. Biggest needle palm about 5 feet tall x 8 feet wide. This one got spear pull the first winter in the ground and lost the main trunk. All the offsets have formed this clump. Rock solid after that winter. No need to waste pine needles on this guy. So all these huts I started putting over the palms which I’m glad I staked 2 feet deep with all the tornadoes and wind we’ve had lately. But these are essentially a cold frame that provides overhead cover, blocks the wind, and has some insulating properties, but NOT airtight. Must have proper ventilation. These huts will stay on all winter. No danger of overheating with only a roof and 3 sides. I put a cover over the open south facing side only during the coldest weather like now. Saturday I’ll take all the front plastic back off and remove some of the pine needles in the huts. Cold frame I made out of an old glass storm door and scrap wood. Has kept these 6 broccoli plants growing into January. Sabal minor doesn’t need any protection, there’s 7 Sabal Birmingham seedlings that germinated in the ground growing around it so they all made it in a hut. Curious to see what happens with those in the future Small sabal Louisiana first winter in a hut you go. If you’ve ever been in a barn or around animals, they can take a surprising amount of cold as long as you keep the wind and weather off them. Same here, if you stick your head in that hut it’s surprisingly warmer than the outside air. Now on to the Sabal palmettos. I’m determined to get a palmetto to stick here long term. These are all foundation planted. This is south east side of my house, in a raised bed. There’s it after the front door got put onPalmetto on the west side against the foundation, had to build a bigger hut for this one as it has 6 Birmingham seedlings scattered around it. Under all the needles I’m confident they’ll make it. Palmettos on the south side in a raised bed against the foundation. Did something different and put cinder blocks around them and bins on top with holes drilled near the top for ventilation. They’ve been like that for a month and a half. Just stuffed them with pine needles during the last snow we got a few weeks ago. Threw some old blankets over them for the night. 

[teddytn]

2 minutes ago, amh said:

I wouldn't worry about the minors, but the others may need some covering. Hopefully someone with more experience can reply.

My first year Sabal minors already experienced about 15F with absolutely no protection and are still, literally growing.

They definitely don’t need it, just taking care of my plant kids lol

[oasis371]

I put a collar around my Trachy, a fake, large, clay pot with an opening on the top and the bottom.  Today, I filled the space within the collar with frost cloth.  Yes, supposed to snow and likewise, the snow is not the problem. Right now, we share the same minimum forecasted (9.0F),  but I have a feeling they may be raising it, rather than dropping it.  I have half a dozen more large containerized (protected) Trachys and have more coming up as seedlings.  December was so incredibly warm, sure to be a shock for all of us!  

[teddytn]

Some small yuccas, gloriosa, rigida and a small hesperaloe parviflora, just threw some pine needles over themBig Birmingham down in front and up in the next raised bed. Have been through some terrible weather over the years and the most damage is some leaf spotting and tip burn. Big yucca gloriosa top leftThe lower Birmingham is in the most protected microclimate I’ve got. Looking back I would have put a palmetto here if I could rewind time 8 years. Birmingham’s are super tough, I’m about to venture out this year and do some experimental plantings out in the open in the yard. Creates its own canopy, doesn’t need any help, got pine needles anywayUpper Birmingham exploded this year, gets more wind and weather, but doesn’t need any help, got pine needles anywayView up the west side of the house facing north. Me with my winter protection on 

[GregVirginia7]

43 minutes ago, teddytn said:

I used to struggle with the idea of protecting palms and other plants I have planted. Losing plants hurt me in the beginning of my plant collecting, and for the longest time vowed to only plant things hardy enough to survive unprotected rock solid at my house. I’ve adjusted that and have come to a middle ground. Everything gets protected first and possibly second year in the ground. During really bad weather events I’ll always mulch around the base and crown of plants that don’t really need protection anyway. 
Honestly could care less about the snow, I’ve yet to see a palm in my yard affected by it, it’s the cold especially with palms in the ground for their first winter. Been below freezing for a few days, and the low tonight is no bueno. That 9f will happen in the early hours of tomorrow morning. Sabal minor and needle palm laugh at the winter weather here, still put their winter coats on though. Sabal minor below first year in the ground, just put pine needles in the crown/ around the base. Agaves under bins with canvas drop cloths over the top.Good sized Sabal minor mccurtain, laughs at the winter here. Still put pine needles around the spear. Good practice imo, keeping them as healthy as possible and ready to grow as soon as spring hits.In my experience needle palms spear is sensitive the first year in the ground after that the entire plant is rock solid. First winter very important to protect. Early this morning when snow first startedSame needle a few hours later after some accumulation Stinking cedar torreya taxifolia, threw some pine needles around the base of it. My grandma always used to yell at me “put your coat on!” Making sure all my plant kids have their winter coats on lol. 

I’m with you. This is my first winter in seven or eight years where I haven’t overprotected the Medi and the Brazoria...my full sun needle is still buried under what was about a 12 inch heavy, wet snow but when the snow melts, it will bounce right back up...amazing cold hardy palm. Covering my agaves as well with triple layer burlap blankets that I’ll roll back after the snow is finished...so far so good but, like you, though a bit warmer for us, we’ll be seeing upper teens so will get some landscaping fabric tents over the Medi and Brazoria...will remove after nights get back into the twenties...nice thing about our day temps, they tend to bounce back up above freezing, except for a few exceptions, otherwise, reasonable for established Trachies, Needles, Sabals and the Medi.

[teddytn]

55 minutes ago, oasis371 said:

I put a collar around my Trachy, a fake, large, clay pot with an opening on the top and the bottom.  Today, I filled the space within the collar with frost cloth.  Yes, supposed to snow and likewise, the snow is not the problem. Right now, we share the same minimum forecasted (9.0F),  but I have a feeling they may be raising it, rather than dropping it.  I have half a dozen more large containerized (protected) Trachys and have more coming up as seedlings.  December was so incredibly warm, sure to be a shock for all of us!  

Same here the weather literally went from 75 and sunny on Saturday down to 25 and 3” of snow in the same 24 hours. A few days and now this mess. Lol. How do those trachys do in pots over the winter? 

[teddytn]

46 minutes ago, GregVirginia7 said:

I’m with you. This is my first winter in seven or eight years where I haven’t overprotected the Medi and the Brazoria...my full sun needle is still buried under what was about a 12 inch heavy, wet snow but when the snow melts, it will bounce right back up...amazing cold hardy palm. Covering my agaves as well with triple layer burlap blankets that I’ll roll back after the snow is finished...so far so good but, like you, though a bit warmer for us, we’ll be seeing upper teens so will get some landscaping fabric tents over the Medi and Brazoria...will remove after nights get back into the twenties...nice thing about our day temps, they tend to bounce back up above freezing, except for a few exceptions, otherwise, reasonable for established Trachies, Needles, Sabals and the Medi.

What agaves you got going? I’ve been on an agave kick lately. 

[oasis371]

The Trachy in the pic above is in the ground, my containerized ones are in a garage.  The one in the above pic only looks like it's in a pot because I am using an old container, open at both ends, to protect the palm from cold.  I filled the space around the trunk, inside that container, with insulating fabric. Last I checked, min temps were rising. 

[Allen]

I guess I'll see how it goes.  Only the trachy, Butia and mule protected.  Minors, palmetto, Louisiana, Birminghams, brazoria, needles on their own

[teddytn]

52 minutes ago, oasis371 said:

The Trachy in the pic above is in the ground, my containerized ones are in a garage.  The one in the above pic only looks like it's in a pot because I am using an old container, open at both ends, to protect the palm from cold.  I filled the space around the trunk, inside that container, with insulating fabric. Last I checked, min temps were rising. 

Gotcha. Yeah same here, looking like it should stay in the double digits now

[teddytn]

24 minutes ago, Allen said:

I guess I'll see how it goes.  Only the trachy, Butia and mule protected.  Minors, palmetto, Louisiana, Birminghams, brazoria, needles on their own

Besides Clarksville I know White Bluff, Ashland City and Nashville got hammered with snow today. Same in the Boro? Pine needles are cheap, I figured why not. If the leaves look a little better in spring then it’s worth it. I’ll dial it back to no protection and just pine needles for all that stuff next year. 

[Allen]

I'm a little worried about my Palmetto and a small new Louisiana I put out this year that hasn't looked too great.  We got 6" and it is supposed to be 10F tonight.  The Louisiana is completely under snow and the Palmetto spear area is but it is around 5' tall.  Of course anything can rot so I'll put out some copper fungicide a couple times when temps warm.

 

Edit.  I think they upped my temps to 11F or 12F

Edited January 7, 2022 by Allen

[teddytn]

Looks like we bottomed out at 8f overnight. I would rather not try to prove a palms hardiness every year, sabals have proven to me over the years to be tough as nails and can take extreme weather for sure. I’ll give some protection to all my palms the first year at least, mulch the base and crown every year after that. If they die then I’ll put something else in its place. Most likely a Sabal minor lol. If you’ve ever seen a raggedy looking minor after a tough winter, I guarantee just some pine needles would get it off to a better start in spring. 

[Allen]

31 minutes ago, teddytn said:

Looks like we bottomed out at 8f overnight. I would rather not try to prove a palms hardiness every year, sabals have proven to me over the years to be tough as nails and can take extreme weather for sure. I’ll give some protection to all my palms the first year at least, mulch the base and crown every year after that. If they die then I’ll put something else in its place. Most likely a Sabal minor lol. If you’ve ever seen a raggedy looking minor after a tough winter, I guarantee just some pine needles would get it off to a better start in spring. 

I don't think you'll have too much problem with minors here.  They are probably tougher than needles in several regards (frond stiffness to take ice/snow, resistance to spear pull)

[GregVirginia7]

12 hours ago, teddytn said:

What agaves you got going? I’ve been on an agave kick lately. 

In ground, one Parryi Truncata and one very small Frosty Blue Ovatifolia...Also one larger Frosty Blue in a pot against a south facing brick wall with the pot covered in a thick layer of mulch...hope it makes it. I chose that variety because I saw a lot of photos from last year’s Texas freeze that seemed to show them to be real troopers in the severest of circumstances. I’m going to make a full sun agave bed in the spring and put the potted one in there...will probably move the Parryi there as well...just doesn’t get enough sun where it is now. They really are great plants to pair with palms. All the best with the cold...your palms all look ready for action!
 

 

[teddytn]

11 hours ago, Allen said:

I'm a little worried about my Palmetto and a small new Louisiana I put out this year that hasn't looked too great.  We got 6" and it is supposed to be 10F tonight.  The Louisiana is completely under snow and the Palmetto spear area is but it is around 5' tall.  Of course anything can rot so I'll put out some copper fungicide a couple times when temps warm.

 

Edit.  I think they upped my temps to 11F or 12F

All of both our of palms have been through way worse than this, shouldn’t be a problem. I hope this isn’t a start to a prolonged bad winter though. If I remember correctly we usually see this kind of weather in February. 

[Allen]

20 minutes ago, teddytn said:

All of both our of palms have been through way worse than this, shouldn’t be a problem. I hope this isn’t a start to a prolonged bad winter though. If I remember correctly we usually see this kind of weather in February. 

Here's my temp chart.  Usually cold for Jan here.  I thought this might help you as well in guessing safe times for your plants.

 

[teddytn]

34 minutes ago, Allen said:

Here's my temp chart.  Usually cold for Jan here.  I thought this might help you as well in guessing safe times for your plants.

 

That’s really cool, thanks for that!! Just knocked snow off some of the palms, everything looks fine. 

[Jimhardy]

To protect or not to protect....weather it is nobler in the yard to suffer the lows and highs of a winter gone mad,

or to take up coverage against a sea of cold and by protecting(palms), somehow save them! Yes...Shake a spear was one

of the first cold hardy care takers to write about protection.....they even made a movie... Shakespeare in Lowes

Whether you believe it or not.

[teddytn]

38 minutes ago, Jimhardy said:

To protect or not to protect....weather it is nobler in the yard to suffer the lows and highs of a winter gone mad,

or to take up coverage against a sea of cold and by protecting(palms), somehow save them! Yes...Shake a spear was one

of the first cold hardy care takers to write about protection.....they even made a movie... Shakespeare in Lowes

Whether you believe it or not.

That’s awesome! Made my day

[ky_palm064]

I was way too chicken to not protect my minors and needles for the first 2 to 3 years. After their roots are established, needle palms are unbelievably leaf hardy. When it gets to zero f or below, the fronds start to fold up (like a yucca). After warm up, they unfold, only showing a little tip burn.

[teddytn]

Finally got above freezing today, everything looks fine. @Allen don’t want to speak to soon, forecast looks like a few lows in the 20’s but daytime highs look good. If that’s the worst we see this winter I’ll take it! I’ve seen it get nasty in February too though. How’s all the sabals looking?

[teddytn]

20 hours ago, ky_palm064 said:

I was way too chicken to not protect my minors and needles for the first 2 to 3 years. After their roots are established, needle palms are unbelievably leaf hardy. When it gets to zero f or below, the fronds start to fold up (like a yucca). After warm up, they unfold, only showing a little tip burn.

I say give them a little love when small, better safe than sorry. Saw some leaf folding yesterday on the needle palms, back to normal today. 

[Allen]

37 minutes ago, teddytn said:

Finally got above freezing today, everything looks fine. @Allen don’t want to speak to soon, forecast looks like a few lows in the 20’s but daytime highs look good. If that’s the worst we see this winter I’ll take it! I’ve seen it get nasty in February too though. How’s all the sabals looking?

Everything is looking really good.  Picture is during storm, look at now in the video at 2:10

 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Allen

[teddytn]

11 minutes ago, Allen said:

Everything is looking really good.  Picture is during storm, look at now in the video at 2:10

 

This isn’t your first rodeo, but looks like you made perfect calls on protection. Palmetto looks untouched! 

[Allen]

2 minutes ago, teddytn said:

This isn’t your first rodeo, but looks like you made perfect calls on protection. Palmetto looks untouched! 

look at it buried in snow in the pic then look in the video 2:37

Edited January 8, 2022 by Allen

[teddytn]

6 minutes ago, Allen said:

look at it buried in snow in the pic then look in the video 2:37

That’s almost crazy, curls up under the snow and then springs back up like just another day! Did you protect any of the sabals last year, specifically the palmetto? We’ve talked about the growing point being below ground, but all this is promising. You ever consider planting a palmetto close to the house?

[Allen]

I did cover it last year when that 9 and ice hit.  The ice was bad here.  I'll probably try to do something to it if the trunk gets above ground or it gets below 5F, or the cold duration is extreme.

In general here is my strategy, of course it's event by event or plant by plant sometimes.

Minor - if it goes below 0F or artic extended cold, cover with pile of leaves in middle.  Don't see these getting protected except super rare

needle - protect in ice storm maybe otherwise meh

Birmingham, Louisiana, Palmetto - protect if temps going under 5F with leaf pile or mulch around spear, Palmetto protect trunk/spear as it grows.  Rare

large Trachy over 10 feet (I have 3) - lights and thermocube on trunk with trunks wrapped.  if it goes below 8F I may have frond damage or I might try to rig a cover depending on my mood. These are hard to wrap the fronds. 

Small trachy up to 8' tall, cover if temps going below 12F just as insurance since they are easy to wrap. 

Butia, Mule - Wrap in Nov-Dec and leave wrapped till March.  

 

 

[teddytn]

53 minutes ago, Allen said:

I did cover it last year when that 9 and ice hit.  The ice was bad here.  I'll probably try to do something to it if the trunk gets above ground or it gets below 5F, or the cold duration is extreme.

In general here is my strategy, of course it's event by event or plant by plant sometimes.

Minor - if it goes below 0F or artic extended cold, cover with pile of leaves in middle.  Don't see these getting protected except super rare

needle - protect in ice storm maybe otherwise meh

Birmingham, Louisiana, Palmetto - protect if temps going under 5F with leaf pile or mulch around spear, Palmetto protect trunk/spear as it grows.  Rare

large Trachy over 10 feet (I have 3) - lights and thermocube on trunk with trunks wrapped.  if it goes below 8F I may have frond damage or I might try to rig a cover depending on my mood. These are hard to wrap the fronds. 

Small trachy up to 8' tall, cover if temps going below 12F just as insurance since they are easy to wrap. 

Butia, Mule - Wrap in Nov-Dec and leave wrapped till March.  

 

 

That’s where my experience falls short is any of the more tender palms that will grow here protected. I’m planning on a decent sized planting of trachy’s up the east side of my house. I’ll have to get some advice from you when I get that going.

[ColumbusPalm]

@Allen that’s a nice strategy. I’m surprised Sabals don’t get the crown for most cold hardy palms, they seem to be. 
 

My Trachy and Needle both looked unhappy during the 10F we just had then perked up when it got in the 40s yesterday and today. The minors looked no different the entire time. 

[oasis371]

I just went out to cover the base of the plant and the trunk with a heavy moving blanket that I bungeed. This is over the large plant collar that I made out of a planter without a bottom. Then, I took a shower curtain and bungeed all the foliage and overlapped with the bottom.  That, and there is still snow cover, not to mention, heat off the HOUSE. I am sure it will be fine, they seem to be raising the minimums, now supposed to drop to 13 F as a minimum. There was supposed to be freezing rain this morning but that too was modified to light rain. I think this cold ;bothering me more than the palm.  About to go down to the basement and plant up 18 Trahcy seedlings that I grew from seed.  Also, will be planting seeds for the Bulgaria strain of T. fortunei.