In depth analysis of the Athens Riviera climate and palm potential

[Than]

1 hour ago, Phoenikakias said:

 

No joke. I was told by Janni and I checked the hotel's website where I found this photo. 

@manos why would Malia be so warm? It's on the north coast... Should be quite exposed.  Perhaps we could convince more easily the hotel's manager to try a cocos than Kasosians. After all the hotel boasts a tropical garden already. 

I wonder if they protect Ravenala in the winter. I swear when I go to Crete this summer I'll go visit and ask. I bought Ravenala seeds. If it survives unprotected in Crete it should survive protected in Attica no?

Edited April 5, 2022 by ego

[Than]

The hotel is called Danaides btw

[Victor G.]

4 hours ago, ego said:

Bit off topic again. This photo is from Malia, Crete. An adult Ravenala madagascariensis! 

 

I don't understand.

Some websites put its hardiness at 10b, others at 10a and others at 9b.

Another source says that it gets leaf burn at -2C and the plant dies at -3/4C.

I'm confused...

[Than]

3 minutes ago, Victor G. said:

I don't understand.

Some websites put its hardiness at 10b, others at 10a and others at 9b.

Another source says that it gets leaf burn at -2C and the plant dies at -3/4C.

I'm confused...

I think it's a purely tropical species and it wouldn't surprise me if this is the only one in Europe. I asked at two forums if anyone knows of any other specimens and no reply so far. Think about it. It's got no buds. If it burns from cold it dies. No buds for new growth. Only has one meristem. It's also massive. Absolutely massive. I remember that some gardens in Indonesia only had one Ravenala and nothing else in the garden! It requires lots of humidity and water. Perhaps it can take light frost for 2 hours in Miami where next day's maximum will be 20C, yes. Cocos can too

Edited April 5, 2022 by ego

[Than]

Trust me if Ravenala were 9b southern Spain would be full of it given how impressive it is. A real breath taking statement plant. 

[Victor G.]

2 minutes ago, ego said:

Trust me if Ravenala were 9b southern Spain would be full of it given how impressive it is. A real breath taking statement plant. 

Yeah 9b is probably wrong.

I just find it hard to understand the plants' limits sometimes.

Yesterday for example I was looking about the coffee plant (Coffea arabica). Try it if you're bored.

Some say zone 9. Other say the temperature mustn't go under 10C (??). Others say it can tolerate light and brief frosts. If you start search on more than one website, you find very controversial information

[Than]

Found a better photo. To be honest this is the crappiest looking Ravenala I have ever seen. The leaves are also too small. The ones I used to see in private gardens in Java were twice the size. Makes sense and anyway the mere fact that this plant survived somewhere in Europe is impressive.

 

danaides-apartments-teren-hotelu-825135832-1200-800.webp

[Phoenikakias]

 

 

1 hour ago, ego said:

I think it's a purely tropical species and it wouldn't surprise me if this is the only one in Europe. I asked at two forums if anyone knows of any other specimens and no reply so far. Think about it. It's got no buds. If it burns from cold it dies. No buds for new growth. Only has one meristem. It's also massive. Absolutely massive. I remember that some gardens in Indonesia only had one Ravenala and nothing else in the garden! It requires lots of humidity and water. Perhaps it can take light frost for 2 hours in Miami where next day's maximum will be 20C, yes. Cocos can too

There is one in Monaco or nearby.

[southathens]

1 hour ago, ego said:

@manos why would Malia be so warm? It's on the north coast... Should be quite exposed.  Perhaps we could convince more easily the hotel's manager to try a cocos than Kasosians. After all the hotel boasts a tropical garden already. 

Coastal North Crete has generally a very mild climate. Especially the areas around Rethymno and everything as you move E from Irakleio. 

Remember North Crete has one of the most unique foehn wind mechanisms not only in Europe but in the entire world for its latitude. The North coast has literally achieved all the European heat records from October until February.  The foehn winds in North Crete oblitarate virtually anything in Europe including Cyprus when it comes to winter heat records. Vrysses on the North coast from NOA recorded the European January T record of 30.4C and 32.1C for February. Iraklio has the European December heat record while Souda recorded 40C in October back in 1979 which is unheard for Europe and again achieved the November European heat record. 

This is due to the huge mountains directly south of the North coast which cause extreme foehns when S winds blow from the Sahara. 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Manos33

[southathens]

Here are Greece's top T's today. All in North Crete due to the foehn winds we had today on the North Coast

 

[Than]

1 hour ago, Phoenikakias said:

 

 

There is one in Monaco or nearby.

Any source? Photo? Nice is zone 10a so it wouldn't be that surprising. 

[Than]

52 minutes ago, Manos33 said:

Coastal North Crete has generally a very mild climate. Especially the areas around Rethymno and everything as you move E from Irakleio. 

Remember North Crete has one of the most unique foehn wind mechanisms not only in Europe but in the entire world for its latitude. The North coast has literally achieved all the European heat records from October until February.  The foehn winds in North Crete oblitarate virtually anything in Europe including Cyprus when it comes to winter heat records. Vrysses on the North coast from NOA recorded the European January T record of 30.4C and 32.1C for February. Iraklio has the European December heat record while Souda recorded 40C in October back in 1979 which is unheard for Europe and again achieved the November European heat record. 

This is due to the huge mountains directly south of the North coast which cause extreme foehns when S winds blow from the Sahara. 

But Kasos is still milder, right?

I have a flat and some land in Chania, both near the sea. Should I try cocos? Just need to teach mum how to fertilize  Flat's balcony looks east.

Any progress with the Kasos residents? Have you selected the cocos' guardian yet?

Edited April 5, 2022 by ego

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

2 hours ago, ego said:

Trust me if Ravenala were 9b southern Spain would be full of it given how impressive it is. A real breath taking statement plant. 

Actually southern Spain has lots of Ravenalas in public places (many more in private ones, with private I don't mean only houses, but also hotels) but for avenues/parks. When I say southern I always refer to the southernmost coast, I've remember I saw a good looking one in a hotel in Benidorm and a smaller one under canopy in the Valencia Botanical Garden. 

Here you have the evolution of Ravenalas in Torre del Mar (Málaga) from 2008 to 2019 as you can see it even developed smaller "children" from the main plant. A quick lookup on Spanish Gardening forums and they said as of early 2010s there were lots of Ravenalas in the area of Málaga and they were giving fruits/seeds already. 




Here you have 3 of them one planted near eachother in a park in the city of Málaga. In Spain, they grow up to 39ºN (at least, the Valencia ones) but I wouldn't be surprised if there were ones further north in coastal Mallorca and Ibiza or in coastal Barcelona, just as @Phoenikakias stated, there is even one in southernmost France, it was in Monaco or Menton.


 

2 hours ago, Victor G. said:

Yeah 9b is probably wrong.

I just find it hard to understand the plants' limits sometimes.

Yesterday for example I was looking about the coffee plant (Coffea arabica). Try it if you're bored.

Some say zone 9. Other say the temperature mustn't go under 10C (??). Others say it can tolerate light and brief frosts. If you start search on more than one website, you find very controversial information

They say it's a very close member to Strelitzia as it's from the Strelitziaceae family. Maybe very similar hardiness to the Bird of Paradise? 

I'd say it's mid-upper 10a and they can take very very light freezes (it will probably die under -1ºC) if they grow up even in France... 

[Than]

5 minutes ago, Alicante said:

Actually southern Spain has lots of Ravenalas in public places (many more in private ones, with private I don't mean only houses, but also hotels) but for avenues/parks. When I say southern I always refer to the southernmost coast, I've remember I saw a good looking one in a hotel in Benidorm and a smaller one under canopy in the Valencia Botanical Garden. 

Here you have the evolution of Ravenalas in Torre del Mar (Málaga) from 2008 to 2019 as you can see it even developed smaller "children" from the main plant. A quick lookup on Spanish Gardening forums and they said as of early 2010s there were lots of Ravenalas in the area of Málaga and they were giving fruits/seeds already. 




Here you have 3 of them one planted near eachother in a park in the city of Málaga. In Spain, they grow up to 39ºN (at least, the Valencia ones) but I wouldn't be surprised if there were ones further north in coastal Mallorca and Ibiza or in coastal Barcelona, just as @Phoenikakias stated, there is even one in southernmost France, it was in Monaco or Menton.


 

They say it's a very close member to Strelitzia as it's from the Strelitziaceae family. Maybe very similar hardiness to the Bird of Paradise? 

I'd say it's mid-upper 10a and they can take very very light freezes (it will probably die under -1ºC) if they grow up even in France... 

 

Wow, I was so wrong. Honestly I'd never expect. Then again south Spain is perhaps milder than Crete, so of course. Again I have to say those Ravenalas seem stunted to me compared to the beasts I saw in Indonesia. Perhaps it's the winter, or the insufficient water + poor soil? 

@Victor G. if my seeds sprout we can try one in Dikastika!

Edited April 5, 2022 by ego

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

7 minutes ago, ego said:

 

Wow, I was so wrong. Honestly I'd never expect. Then again south Spain is perhaps milder than Crete, so of course. Again I have to say those Ravenalas seem stunted to me compared to the ones I saw in Indonesia. Perhaps it's the winter, or the insufficient water + poor soil? 

I'd say a mixture of both. Indonesia is a world apart with its tropical climate, unsure about the soil but it's the typical one they plant in avenues between concrete (as you can see) and they do receive public irrigation but it's most likely not enough for them. Again, Indonesia is also a world apart regarding precipitation and they receive it year round so... 

Anyways, they do it very well there and they grow fast, look at the 2008-2019 difference, it even sprouted smaller "children" from the "mother" plant. The entire avenue is packed with both Ravenalas and Roystoneas. Honorable mention to the Roystoneas growth, they grow almost as fast as Washingtonias, in these 2 pics you can see their 11-year differences.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Alicante

[Than]

Just now, Alicante said:

I'd say a mixture of both. Indonesia is a world apart with its tropical climate, unsure about the soil but it's the typical one they plant in avenues between concrete (as you can see) and they do receive public irrigation but it's most likely not enough for them. Again, Indonesia is also a world apart regarding precipitation and they receive it year round so... 

Anyways, they do it very well there and they grow fast, look at the 2008-2019 difference, it even sprouted smaller "children" from the "mother" plant. The entire avenue is packed with both Ravenalas and Roystoneas. Honorable mention to the Roystoneas growth, they grow almost as fast as Washingtonias, in these 2 pics you can see the difference between 11 years.

Yeah I can see they were planted in the street in poor soil. In Indonesia the soil is volcanic, enough said. Still with better care (soil enrichment, more water, fertilizing) perhaps Spanish Ravenalas could become larger than this. I don't suppose the municipality in Malaga fertilizes them?

[southathens]

25 minutes ago, ego said:

But Kasos is still milder, right?

I have a flat and some land in Chania, both near the sea. Should I try cocos? Just need to teach mum how to fertilize  Flat's balcony looks east.

Any progress with the Kasos residents? Have you selected the cocos' guardian yet?

Yes it is still milder on average during the winter! Even much milder depending on the areas you compare

While N Crete obliterates any area in Europe in winter heat records,  on average it is still a tad cooler than Kasos. This is because S winds blowing from the Sahara are only occasional during the autumn, winter and spring. The only exception is every few years when the Libyan stream prevails over the Aegean jet stream, which is generally pretty unusual. 

Regarding Kasos residents I found the vice mayor of a village in Kasos but he won't do as he lives in higher altitude. Fri is only around 400 people and we need someone from Fri to actually have the best chance for cocos. The same goes with Karpathos, a few responded but they are in irrelevant areas in the N of the island. Unfortunately the S of Karpathos is very very sparse populated. Basically the best area for cocos in Karpathos would be around the airport but no one lives there but the Airport staff... 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Manos33

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

14 minutes ago, ego said:

Yeah I can see they were planted in the street in poor soil. In Indonesia the soil is volcanic, enough said. Still with better care (soil enrichment, more water, fertilizing) perhaps Spanish Ravenalas could become larger than this. I don't suppose the municipality in Malaga fertilizes them?

I don't know if you saw a conversation I've had 2 months ago with another Spanish member of PalmTalk. He's from the north of Spain but it works the same country-wise. The Spanish municipalities/public administrations don't give a damn fEck about the plants they grow I'd say 9 out of 10 times. Only semi-private or private gardens do, and even in some of those they lack proper care. I have some examples I know from the southern area of my region (as it's BSh/BWh, it's really arid) if you're interested I'll tell you more in a private message.

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/72228-kentias-at-43ºn/&tab=comments#comment-1040719

 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Alicante

[southathens]

24 minutes ago, ego said:

@Victor G. if my seeds sprout we can try one in Dikastika!

Oh please don't challenge Victor 

He might actually end up growing freaking cocos over there. I am kinda amazed of how mild the climate is in Dikastika...and I am not prepared to have the Athens Riviera lose its title as the mildest area in Attica. 

I think I will start sabotaging him to prevent him from growing any tropicals 

Give me some ideas as to how I could best sabotage him??hehehhe

[Victor G.]

13 minutes ago, Manos33 said:

Oh please don't challenge Victor 

He might actually end up growing freaking cocos over there. I am kinda amazed of how mild the climate is in Dikastika...and I am not prepared to have the Athens Riviera lose its title as the mildest area in Attica. 

I think I will start sabotaging him to prevent him from growing any tropicals 

Give me some ideas as to how I could best sabotage him??hehehhe

Too late, I accept every plant challenge!

At some point I will try coconuts. I know I'll fail, but why not? I'll germinate them myself, cause I'm not paying much for something that's gonna die anyway. But trying doesn't hurt.

I don't know if Dikastika is the mildest area in Athens - probably not - but we'll know a hundert percent one I buy a professional station. But like I said, I do trust the lows still. The concrete doesn't have sun all day and it doesn't get that hot to alter the night temperatures. It will in the summer though, that's why I'll move it once I come back, in a few weeks.

Interestingly, I observed that the last days with south winds, Nea Styra, Nea Makri and Rafina all had higher temperature all night long, by 0,5-1°C. I guess Kynosoura blocks the southern winds.

However when the northen-northeastern winds come (my mortal enemy, my arch nemesis if you will) we're registering slightly higher temps than the other nearby stations.

[Victor G.]

50 minutes ago, ego said:

 

Wow, I was so wrong. Honestly I'd never expect. Then again south Spain is perhaps milder than Crete, so of course. Again I have to say those Ravenalas seem stunted to me compared to the beasts I saw in Indonesia. Perhaps it's the winter, or the insufficient water + poor soil? 

@Victor G. if my seeds sprout we can try one in Dikastika!

Yes please! I will order from rps and it has to be a certain minimum for maybe I'll order them as well. I only have the alfrediis so far.

The water is the problem though, I guess they need plenty of they come from the tropics.

I don't know if you know it, but in Dikastika we have water tanks, and new water comes every 2-3 days for a couple of hours. My grandparents get really pissed when I'm watering the plants there 

[Than]

Guys the garden's microclimate will be more important than exact lows. Some canopy, some water body, a south facing wall etc will help a marginal plant a lot more

[Than]

1 minute ago, Victor G. said:

Yes please! I will order from rps and it has to be a certain minimum for maybe I'll order them as well. I only have the alfrediis so far.

The water is the problem though, I guess they need plenty of they come from the tropics.

I don't know if you know it, but in Dikastika we have water tanks, and new water comes every 2-3 days for a couple of hours. My grandparents get really pissed when I'm watering the plants there 

What? Really? Shoot! Tropicals require much water in the summer

[Victor G.]

4 minutes ago, ego said:

What? Really? Shoot! Tropicals require much water in the summer

Yeah, and the area is arid AF in the summer.

Even the Pistacia Lentiscus there start to go brown and lose leaves, and they are very drought tolerant

[southathens]

10 minutes ago, Victor G. said:

I don't know if Dikastika is the mildest area in Athens - probably not

Joking aside,  yes it is not. The Athens Riviera has huge mountains protecting it and then add the monstrous UHI of metropolitan Athens that gives this mortal combination and leads the Athens Riviera to achieve the highest mean annual Ts in Continental Europe. 

But Dikastika must be one of the best runner ups in Attica. I only hope we had a Davis in Shinias. I think that area immediately next to Kynosoura might surprise us all. We do have pretty strong indications from Shinias HNMS.

[Victor G.]

3 minutes ago, Manos33 said:

We do have pretty strong indications from Shinias HNMS

We had! I hope EMY decides to repair it or something cause that thing's been offline a long time now

[southathens]

4 minutes ago, Victor G. said:

We had! I hope EMY decides to repair it or something cause that thing's been offline a long time now

I told you it is working normally. Its just that HNMS cant be arsed to publish its values. Its business as usual in HNMS. If you are really curious you can call them daily and ask over the phone the maximums and minimums with no charge. After a point they will get used to you! I mean at one point they were actually calling me everyday because I hadn't called for some days to ask about the values for some stations in Attica 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Manos33

[Phoenikakias]

1 hour ago, Manos33 said:

Yes it is still milder on average during the winter! Even much milder depending on the areas you compare

While N Crete obliterates any area in Europe in winter heat records,  on average it is still a tad cooler than Kasos. This is because S winds blowing from the Sahara are only occasional during the autumn, winter and spring. The only exception is every few years when the Libyan stream prevails over the Aegean jet stream, which is generally pretty unusual. 

Regarding Kasos residents I found the vice mayor of a village in Kasos but he won't do as he lives in higher altitude. Fri is only around 400 people and we need someone from Fri to actually have the best chance for cocos. The same goes with Karpathos, a few responded but they are in irrelevant areas in the N of the island. Unfortunately the S of Karpathos is very very sparse populated. Basically the best area for cocos in Karpathos would be around the airport but no one lives there but the Airport staff... 

You three are the Cocos elite

born to compete

and never retreat!

[Victor G.]

4 minutes ago, Manos33 said:

I told you it is working normally. Its just that HNMS cant be arsed to publish its values. Its business as usual in HNMS. If you are really curious you can call them daily and ask over the phone the maximums and minimums with no charge. After a point they will get used to you! I mean at one point they were actually calling me everyday because I hadn't called for some days to ask about the values for some stations in Attica 

Yeah that's what I mean, they don't upload it. But also on infoclimat I don't see the values from Schinias, so they don't give it there either.

Unfortunately I can't call; i have a Greek number, but only pay money on it when I come to Greece. The rest of the time I can't call Greek numbers.

I sent them an Email once. After one month, I'm still waiting for an answer...

[Victor G.]

Just now, Phoenikakias said:

You three are the Cocos elite

born to compete

and never retreat!

You'll see when you'll be eating my home grown biological and naturally fertilized coconuts!!

[southathens]

7 minutes ago, Victor G. said:

Yeah that's what I mean, they don't upload it. But also on infoclimat I don't see the values from Schinias, so they don't give it there either.

Unfortunately I can't call; i have a Greek number, but only pay money on it when I come to Greece. The rest of the time I can't call Greek numbers.

I sent them an Email once. After one month, I'm still waiting for an answer...

I am pretty persistent tbh. Infoclimat is generally crap from what I have seen for Greece. There are many mistakes for Greek stations. I think they are just reading the metars and then they are grouping them randomly without taking into account the quality controls from HNMS. Infoclimat is probably better for historical searches but always make sure to have the backing from HNMS. Remember for Greece unfortunately you have to go through HNMS no matter what. I haven't found a single website that actually has accurate data for Greece. 

Πάντως εμένα έβαζαν φαντάρους και με έπαιρναν τηλ χαχαχα

Edited April 5, 2022 by Manos33

[Phoenikakias]

A video of my garden almost three weeks ago. 

 

[Than]

1 hour ago, Phoenikakias said:

A video of my garden almost three weeks ago. 

 

Wow, Caribbean vibes.

I always imagined your garden to be huge tbh. I would break that tiled patio and fill it with more plants! When I finally get my plot there will be no tiles or conrete. Green all around with a very narrow path in the middle.

[Phoenikakias]

9 minutes ago, ego said:

Wow, Caribbean vibes.

I always imagined your garden to be huge tbh. I would break that tiled patio and fill it with more plants! When I finally get my plot there will be no tiles or conrete. Green all around with a very narrow path in the middle.

It aint huge in any case, but what is shown is only a part of it.

[Victor G.]

2 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

A video of my garden almost three weeks ago. 

 

Awesome! You must have put a lot of work in it

I hope my garden looks like that one day

[Victor G.]

@ego I was looking at photos of Danaides apartments and he must have this above average love for tropicals like us.

I've been to many touristic places in Greece and everyone always plants palms because they think
Palms = Tropical look = North Europeans will love it

But they always (literally always) plant canaries. I'm really starting to get sick of that palm. But this guy has taken it to the next level and has obviously put a lot of effort (and money) into making it look different than most hotels/apartments in Greece. Respect!

[Than]

3 minutes ago, Victor G. said:

@ego I was looking at photos of Danaides apartments and he must have this above average love for tropicals like us.

I've been to many touristic places in Greece and everyone always plants palms because they think
Palms = Tropical look = North Europeans will love it

But they always (literally always) plant canaries. I'm really starting to get sick of that palm. But this guy has taken it to the next level and has obviously put a lot of effort (and money) into making it look different than most hotels/apartments in Greece. Respect!

Canaries and Washingtonias. I'm starting to get allergic to them

[Victor G.]

11 minutes ago, ego said:

Canaries and Washingtonias. I'm starting to get allergic to them

Me too. I mean they're nice and all, but they are literally every 20 meters in Athens. A little variety doesn't hurt!

By the way and off-topic, but since you live in Zoumberi put your radio on 95,4

It's one thing I love about dikastika. You'll thank me (but probably you're gonna swear at me) later 

[Janni]

14 hours ago, ego said:

Found a better photo. To be honest this is the crappiest looking Ravenala I have ever seen. The leaves are also too small. The ones I used to see in private gardens in Java were twice the size. Makes sense and anyway the mere fact that this plant survived somewhere in Europe is impressive.

 

danaides-apartments-teren-hotelu-825135832-1200-800.webp 68.19 kB · 6 downloads

That is why I said that you‘ll have problems with strong winds, no matter where you are in Greece. I think the ravenala grew too high, so it suddenly was exposed to strong winds. 
I saw the temperatures in malia yesterday. Seems like it was classical headache weather! Within a few minutes they had a temperature rise from 19 to 30C and then, a couple of hours later, the same backwards. All that was accompanied with strong and of course completely dry foen winds! That is really not good for those plants like ravenala. 

[Victor G.]

4 minutes ago, Janni said:

That is why I said that you‘ll have problems with strong winds, no matter where you are in Greece. I think the ravenala grew too high, so it suddenly was exposed to strong winds. 
I saw the temperatures in malia yesterday. Seems like it was classical headache weather! Within a few minutes they had a temperature rise from 19 to 30C and then, a couple of hours later, the same backwards. All that was accompanied with strong and of course completely dry foen winds! That is really not good for those plants like ravenala. 

I saw that temperature rise and fall too! It's crazy how suddenly rose to such levels and withina couple of hours it was back down there