In depth analysis of the Athens Riviera climate and palm potential

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

Check out the crazy differences! All come from official AEMET stations easily provable within the official AEMET site: http://www.aemet.es/es/eltiempo/observacion/ultimosdatos

1st is Málaga Airport. 2nd is Málaga Port and 3rd is Rincón de La Victoria, where the 2013/2014 Coconut is located. 








The differences from different microclimates are extreme as well, just as it happens in Athens and Attica! Within few kilometers the difference can be massive.

Just look at the airport of Málaga compared to the port and then to Rincón de La Victoria. Rincón has an extremely mild microclimate, even more than the city of Málaga. The airport of Málaga is located in Churriana so it's less protected and not affected by UHI, they have colder lows than the city itself and they can have considerably colder ones than Rincón de La Victoria. This one really amazes me since Rincón is a town and the AEMET station is near the beach, so no significant UHI but look at these crazy temps! 

Rincón de La Victoria is very naturally sheltered/protected by big mountains, and the sea breezes keep it warm, thus making it a very proper microclimate. 
It's a shame Infoclimat only has the 1991-2021 averages for the Port of Málaga and not Rincón, which is even warmer! As you can see, the Port of Málaga has a Dec-Jan-Feb-Mar High Average of 18.83ºC while it also has a low average of 11.90ºC making it very mild during the nights as well. This is why the coconut has been thriving over the past 8 years!

http://www.aemet.es/es/eltiempo/observacion/ultimosdatos?k=and&l=6155A&w=2&datos=det&x=&f=tmax
http://www.aemet.es/es/eltiempo/observacion/ultimosdatos?k=and&l=6172O&w=2&datos=det&x=&f=tmax
http://www.aemet.es/es/eltiempo/observacion/ultimosdatos?k=and&l=6175X&w=2&datos=det

Last 7 days total averages , from all of these 3 official AEMET stations: 

1. Málaga Airport : 19.84ºC highs / 12.3ºC lows = 16.07ºC mean
2. Málaga Port : 19.37ºC highs / 12.51ºC lows = 15.94ºC mean
3. Rincón de La Victoria : 21.13ºC highs / 13.41ºC lows = 17.27ºC mean

So Rincón (as I've said before, where the coconut is located) is warmer than the area around Málaga. During the coldest days, it can have 2-3ºC higher lows and average highs are almost 2ºC warmer, lows are warmer too. @Aceraceae you might be interested in this as we've spoken last month. Look at the differences, and these are official AEMET values!



Málaga Puerto has never seen any high under 10ºC at least over the past 23 years, even highs under 15ºC are rare and happen just few times. Keep in mind Rincón is even warmer!

Edited April 3, 2022 by Alicante

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

Guys what do you think about making a 2022 thread regarding ALL of Europe and the extreme/crazy weather we have had until now and we will probably have this year? 

It would be great to make a compilation in a single thread. As this would be epic and everyone can share things about theirs or other countries.

At the moment. Greece had a top 3 coldest March on record. Snowfall records on various countries. Drought record in the UK. Eastern Spain had the wettest March on record, with places surpassing 1.000mm just in March, NOT A JOKE!!! More than 1 freaking thousand milimeters (39.8 in) of rainfall, even today several April cold records were broken in Europe!

[Victor G.]

4 minutes ago, Alicante said:

Guys what do you think about making a 2022 thread regarding ALL of Europe and the extreme/crazy weather we have had until now and we will probably have this year? 

It would be great to make a compilation in a single thread. As this would be epic and everyone can share things about theirs or other countries.

At the moment. Greece had a top 3 coldest March on record. Snowfall records on various countries. Drought record in the UK. Eastern Spain had the wettest March on record, with places surpassing 1.000mm just in March, NOT A JOKE!!! More than 1 freaking thousand milimeters (39.8 in) of rainfall, even today several April cold records were broken in Europe!

I'm all for it! I tries it once here on Palmtalk, but didn't get much response really

[Than]

15 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

If multifida is synonym to humilis, then the big clump is multifida.  The lower one in same picture is excelsa.  Both clumps originate from transplants of  small cane. They are not very slow in our climate. Antemisaris has right now a big stock of humilis and excelsa.

Are they faster than kentias?

[southathens]

4 hours ago, Alicante said:

@Manos33 Manos my friend I've saw that Greek Forum from above (thanks to Google Translate) and I have to clarify something, keep in mind that the Málaga coconut is not located in Málaga but in a milder area called Rincón de La Victoria, also keep in mind the Wikipedia article has the 1981-2010 Málaga Airport averages, as you know (as it happens with Rhodes or Thessaloniki) the airport is far from representing the city itself, moreso when it's in Churriana, a smaller town SW of Málaga that is much less protected than Málaga itself. 

Here you have the Infoclimat averages of Puerto de Málaga, which is much more protected than the airport and influenced by the UHI from Málaga. Keep in mind this also comes from an official AEMET / WMO station as Málaga Puerto is a station you can find in the website of AEMET, but it's always much milder than the airport, as expected: 

http://www.aemet.es/es/eltiempo/observacion/ultimosdatos?k=and&l=6172O&w=0&datos=img&x=h24&f=temperatura

Here you have the 1999-2021 averages from Puerto de Málaga, they say it's 1981-2010 but it's not (if you manually search the data you'll see it's 1999-2021) 
https://www.infoclimat.fr/climatologie/normales-records/1981-2010/malaga-puerto/valeurs/08479.html

As you can see the Dec-Jan-Feb high average is 18.43ºC at the port, 18.83ºC if we make it a Quarter and if we include March. 
All of the record lows are wrong/missing so as you can see it's plain 0,0 in all of the 12 months. The high ones are on spot as they show data from 2002 to 2021.

Just today the Airport had a low of 7.5ºC and the Port had a low of 9.8ºC (both official AEMET stations) as you can see in the AEMET link from above.
In fact, Rincón de La Victoria, where the coconut is located, had a a low of 11.4ºC thus being 4ºC warmer than Málaga Airport and 1.6ºC warmer than the Port!
http://www.aemet.es/es/eltiempo/observacion/ultimosdatos?k=and&l=6175X&w=0&datos=img&x=h24&f=temperatura

 

Oh I am aware of Rincon de la Victoria, maybe even before you were born (just kidding ). There were some epic heat European challenges in UK forums back in the day when Greece always ended up beating Spanish areas (Rincon was always one of them) but that was in terms of mean annual temperatures. The point I was making in the Greek forum If I remember correctly is that as long as a potted coco managed in the Malaga area then Kasos has a good chance as well. 

Most importantly from what I have read I do not follow your thesis that when it comes to marginal climates T maxes are the only factor to consider. This is why for Kasos specifically which actually has such a mild climate with also an amazing average annual T of 20C the chances are pretty good. The only issue here is to find a willing local!!

Edited April 3, 2022 by Manos33

[Than]

I believe the Malaga cocos also had very good genes

[southathens]

4 hours ago, Alicante said:

Rincón de La Victoria is very naturally sheltered/protected by big mountains, and the sea breezes keep it warm, thus making it a very proper microclimate. 

Yeah but I think Rincon and all of these more peripheral AEMET stations that are not shown in AEMET climate normals are actually segunda red  (sorry for my spanish but that is how i have seen these stations being referred in Spanish meteo forums) meaning they are not treated by AEMET with the same seriousness as the ones that appear in the official AEMET climate sections.  

Sure there are some pretty complex areas in Iberia in terms of geomorphology but the orographic complexity we see in Athens must be one of the rarest on the planet at least for Attica's size. I mean you would be hard pressed to find an area of the same size with 5 huge mountains and countless hills surrounding such as small peninsula such as Attica.  This is what makes Athens so unique with such a complex climate and huge differences in neighboring areas. The climatic variety in Athens has you seeing an endless list of European heat records in the summer while at the same time in the winter you get snowfalls in the North suburbs unseen in that latitude with snow falling predominantly with positive Ts due to the windward Aegean mechanism! Athens never bores you weatherwise!!

To be honest I would be convinced that these passive segunda red AEMET stations do not overestimate T maxes if we had reliable Davis fan aspirated stations in these areas. Do you know any in Rincon for example? Unfortunately the chronic problem with passive stations especially those that are not properly monitored in peripheral areas seem to be overestimating T maxes consistently whereas the mechanical ventilation from Davis stations is a much safer bet to avoid these kind of biases seen in passive met stations.

Edited April 3, 2022 by Manos33

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

44 minutes ago, Manos33 said:

Oh I am aware of Rincon de la Victoria, maybe even before you were born (just kidding ). There were some epic heat European challenges in UK forums back in the day when Greece always ended up beating Spanish areas (Rincon was always one of them) but that was in terms of mean annual temperatures. The point I was making in the Greek forum If I remember correctly is that as long as a potted coco managed in the Malaga area then Kasos has a good chance as well. 

Most importantly from what I have read I do not follow your thesis that when it comes to marginal climates T maxes are the only factor to consider. This is why for Kasos specifically which actually has such a mild climate with also an amazing average annual T of 20C the chances are pretty good. The only issue here is to find a willing local!!

I basically said it because I saw an improper comparison as instead of Rincón (location of the coconut) or at least a station that represents better Málaga, you were using the Airport 1981-2010 data. Rincón de La Victoria is actually at 30 km from the Churriana Airport, so it's quite a distance! Also that data since it's from 1981 to 2010 is kind of "outdated" already as the new 1991-2010 one will be available soon. The AEMET 1991-2020 OpenData for the airport has an annual mean of 18.9ºC and it's warmer all year round, some winter months got upgraded up to 0.5ºC TMax from the 1981-2010 data, whilst the city itself and Rincón de La Victoria are of course warmer than the Churriana Airport. 

Thing is that as you can see, Málaga Port and Rincón are both milder/warmer than the Airport as obvious, just as it happens in Saloniki or Rhodos, even more Málaga being a big city with good UHI. As you can see in the Málaga Port 1999-2021 data available in Infoclimat.fr , these winter avg highs are basically unmatched anywhere else in Europe. 

The winter lows from Málaga Port are also one of the warmest in all of Europe just being beaten by few islands which in instance have cooler or quite cooler highs, especially in early spring, the Iberian Peninsula has the benefit of having very quick warm-ups in late winter/early spring as compared to the Eastern Mediterranean which has strong seasonal lag.

In case if you are interested, here is the 1991-2020 official AEMET OpenData Málaga Airport made by César Ballesteros, an AEMET Meteorologist. 

Edited April 3, 2022 by Alicante

[southathens]

10 minutes ago, Alicante said:

 As you can see in the Málaga Port 1999-2021 data available in Infoclimat.fr , these winter avg highs are basically unmatched anywhere else in Europe. 
 

Yeah I did not use the Rincon data on purpose in the Greek forum  since if you read my post above I have a suspicion that all these AEMET stations not in the climate normals overestimate T maxes.  

So the proper statement here would be '' these winter average highs coming from passive segunda red AEMET stations'' 

But out of curiosity I found the closest Davis in Rincon. It is located close to Playa del Penon del Cuervo which is pretty close to Rincon and today it had a low of 9.7C and a max of 16.2C so I don't see any much more potential than what you get in Malaga Puerto at best provided we accept these AEMET stations without hesitation.

Edited April 3, 2022 by Manos33

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

42 minutes ago, Manos33 said:

Yeah but I think Rincon and all of these more peripheral AEMET stations that are not shown in AEMET climate normals are actually segunda red  (sorry for my spanish but that is how i have seen these stations being referred in Spanish meteo forums) meaning they are not treated by AEMET with the same seriousness as the ones that appear in the official AEMET climate sections.  

Sure there are some pretty complex areas in Iberia in terms of geomorphology but the orographic complexity we see in Athens must be one of the rarest on the planet at least for Attica's size. I mean you would be hard pressed to find an area of the same size with 5 huge mountains and countless hills surrounding such as small peninsula such as Attica.  This is what makes Athens so unique with such a complex climate and huge differences in neighboring areas. The climatic variety in Athens has you seeing an endless list of European heat records in the summer while at the same time in the winter you get snowfalls in the North suburbs unseen in that latitude with snow falling predominantly with positive Ts due to the windward Aegean mechanism! Athens never bores you weatherwise!!

To be honest I would be convinced that these passive segunda red AEMET stations do not overestimate T maxes if we had reliable Davis fan aspirated stations in these areas. Do you know any in Rincon for example? Unfortunately the chronic problem with passive stations especially those that are not properly monitored in peripheral areas seem to be overestimating T maxes consistently whereas the mechanical ventilation from Davis stations is a much safer bet to avoid these kind of biases seen in passive met stations.

Well, they are AEMET Observatory stations, they are very properly treated and they are also part of the WMO Network of AEMET, that's why you can find averages for some of them in the WMO Website or members of AEMET can have reports of long term data, but we as normal users we only have access to the last 7 days unfortunately. 

I've saw a couple of AEMET Observatory stations by myself and they had no real physical difference from the long-term ones, I mean, they all were in the ground, properly placed with grass or terrain under them, and with the proper measurements for rain , they were also placed in the middle of nowhere so no artificial heat can interfere with the data. 

About DAVIS fan aspirated stations I do know a lot but from my region, since we have a very strong Regional Meteorology Agency but for Andalusia I actually don't know (I bet there must be one, but I don't know anything about them) anyways keep in mind that all of the official Met Agencies (like AEMET does) place the stations in the ground, not in rooftops.

10 minutes ago, Manos33 said:

Yeah I did not use the Rincon data on purpose in the Greek forum  since if you read my post above I have a suspicion that all these AEMET stations not in the climate normals overestimate T maxes.  

So the proper statement here would be '' these winter average highs coming from passive segunda red AEMET stations'' 

But out of curiosity I found the closest Davis in Rincon. It is located close to Playa del Penon del Cuervo which is pretty close to Rincon and today it had a low of 9.7C and a max of 16.2C so I don't see an much more potential than what you get in Malaga Puerto at best provided we accept these AEMET stations without hesitation.

But keep in mind that's your personal supposition, no one overestimates any T Maxes , you are actually putting in doubt official AEMET stations...   I understand your point of view regarding Davis Fan Aspirated stations but I don't share it. And sorry but there is nothing more valuable regarding Spanish climates than AEMET, which is the Official Met Agency. 

Also if you see in my post from above, I'm actually linking the Official AEMET Website regarding temps over the past 7 days and Rincón is warmer than Puerto, anyways Puerto is a very good station and representative of the city as I said before, even taking the 1999-2021 Puerto de Málaga data, their winter TMaxes are +18ºC in all winter months!

Edited April 3, 2022 by Alicante

[southathens]

1 minute ago, Alicante said:

Well, they are AEMET Observatory stations, they are very properly treated and they are also part of the WMO

I mean I get where you are coming from but you know for us who are serious in climate research things like station biases are important things to take into account. When we look to have direct head to head comparisons between areas then we should do it with the same types of stations.

Unfortunately placing the same type of AEMET stations in Greek hotspots is next to impossible so the golden standard is to run international comparisons is with reliable Davis fan aspirated stations. Something tells me that if you put an AEMET segunda red station in say Lindos then I would not be surprised if we saw mean annual T's over 23-23.5C. At least that is what I can infer with the experience I have the past many years scrutinizing stations internationally. 

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

24 minutes ago, Manos33 said:

I mean I get where you are coming from but you know for us who are serious in climate research things like station biases are important things to take into account. When we look to have direct head to head comparisons between areas then we should do it with the same types of stations.

Unfortunately placing the same type of AEMET stations in Greek hotspots is next to impossible so the golden standard is to run international comparisons is with reliable Davis fan aspirated stations. Something tells me that if you put an AEMET segunda red station in say Lindos then I would not be surprised if we saw mean annual T's over 23-23.5C. At least that is what I can infer with the experience I have the past many years scrutinizing stations internationally. 

But Manos, keep in mind these are your personal assumptions. If you deny official data coming from official AEMET / WMO ground based stations and you prefer Davis Fan Aspirated stations is ok, but keep in mind that if you say this in any serious Meteorology Forum they will probably ignore that. Davis stations are very good for places that don't have official data, but for places that have them, you are the only person I've ever met on the Internet (regarding Meteorology) that prefers to use Davis data rather than official ones!

I actually firmly think that a properly placed AEMET / WMO station in Lindos would have an annual mean of at least 1ºC less than the actual NOA Davis one. But again, this is my opinion as well as you have your opinion... anyways the true fact is, Aeropuerto de Málaga is not as warm as Málaga city or Rincón de La Victoria, also Puerto has never recorded any TMax under 10ºC at least since 1999 and one thing about the coconuts it's not "what I think" but a very extended opinion on PalmTalk said by US experts in growing Coconuts, that's why I say it coz I've learned that here. Coconuts prefer by a long shot winter TMaxes as high as possible... I see Victor and Ego have said the same to you, the Greek islands are very mild regarding lows but they lack real winter warmth... coconuts grow in inland California with 4-5ºC lows but they get their daily dose of 21-22-23ºC so they grow well... Like I said before this is NOT my opinion but stuff I've been reading here on PalmTalk since 2009 when I came here from people trying to grow them in marginal climates.

The best thing you can do is planting one there, so reality will give you and all of us a good reality check, and that is either killing it in its first winter or either surviving!

Edited April 3, 2022 by Alicante

[southathens]

23 minutes ago, Alicante said:

But that's just again your personal assumptions / suppositions that don't have any serious background rather than what you think by yourself. 
 

Yes, this is true and indeed these are my assumptions but like I have demonstrated above already with a simple search of a Davis station in Rincon is that it had actually 1.5C lower max compared to the  passive AEMET station today.  

My assumption comes from long comparisons between WMO and Davis stations in Greece where we see consistently the WMO stations to overestimate T maxes. Sure these stations are official primary WMO stations (and not segunda red) but research requires someone to be able to make informed decisions based on all the available evidence. That is how science moves forward in my opinion. Being dogmatic over lets say a segunda red station which happens to belong to AEMET while ignoring stations that offer the best protection from inflated T maxes in the world such as reliable Davis fan aspirated stations in my opinion is more of wishful thinking instead of actually having an open attitude to hard facts. 

Now regarding Lindos the leeward location of the city is a guarantee that a WMO HNMS station would surprise us much more than what an already fan aspirated Davis station is doing right now. You see we know from direct comparisons with Greek stations that passive WMO stations overestimate Tmaxes compared to Davis ones. So yeah, get ready to see that 23C+ mean annual T in Lindos! I have been in communication with HNMS the past few years to actually persuade them to place a WMO station over there and hopefully this will happen sooner or later. The only problem here is how time consuming Greek red tape can be. But we are getting there!

Edited April 3, 2022 by Manos33

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

1 minute ago, Manos33 said:

Yes, this is true and indeed these are my assumptions but like I have demonstrated above already with a simple search of a Davis station in Rincon is that it had actually 1.5C lower max compared to the  passive AEMET station today.  

My assumption comes from long comparisons between WMO and Davis stations in Greece where we see consistently the WMO stations to overestimate T maxes. Sure these stations are official primary WMO stations (and not segunda red) but research requires someone to be able to make informed decisions based on all the available evidence. That is how science moves forward in my opinion. Being dogmatic over lets say a segunda red station which happens to belong to AEMET while ignoring stations that offer the best protection from inflated T maxes in the world such as reliable Davis fan aspirated stations in my opinion is more of wishful thinking instead of actually having an open attitude to hard facts. 

Now regarding Lindos the leeward location of the city is a guarantee that a WMO HNMS station would surprise us much more than what an already fan aspirated Davis station is doing right now. You see we know from direct comparison with Greek stations that passive WMO stations overestimate Tmaxes compared to Davis ones. So yeah, get ready to see that 23C+ mean annual T in Lindos! I have been in communication with HNMS the past few years to actually persuade them to place a WMO station over there and hopefully this will happen sooner or later. The only problem here is how time consuming Greek red tape can be. But we are getting there!

Well you've actually shown me rooftop Davis stations in Athens or nearby and how inflated their temperatures are compared to the closest official EMY/HNMS stations. So I will always prefer a proper ground based official station rather than a rooftop one and if you go to a professional Met Forum and you make this question you'll see the results...

Btw let's move on since that conversation makes no sense at this point. Lets focus on coconuts. One prime example of coconuts growing in the Mediterranean is the one grown by Stelios (he managed to make it live for several years, and it's still alive right now) and the ones that were growing in Tel Aviv by an user I don't remember right now, maybe Phoenikakias knows his name, both places have cooler winter lows than Kasos, but warmer (considerably warmer for Tel Aviv) winter highs, so that makes the magic out there. 

Of course Tel Aviv is not Europe anymore, even Cyprus is Geographically Asia/Middle East, but both are Eastern Mediterranean places with kind of similar climates.  

The guy from Malta growing coconuts has a very similar climate to Kasos, this winter has been rough there (not as rough as in Greece) and most of them didn't make it, we just hope some of them are still green inside and they will recover. I wonder how they would make it in a cold event like you had in Greece both in January and March of this year. 

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

2 hours ago, Victor G. said:

I'm all for it! I tries it once here on Palmtalk, but didn't get much response really

Really? I didn't know it. Well then we should make one, since we are few here interested in that topic, I see UK Palms is also very active on this topic and probably some other people can interact in that thread too even if they aren't from Europe. But definetly 2022 deserves a thread to keep all of these phenomenons recorded somewhere for the future! 

[southathens]

1 minute ago, Alicante said:

Well you've actually shown me rooftop Davis stations in Athens or nearby and how inflated their temperatures are compared to the closest official EMY/HNMS stations. 

I think you are confused but its ok you are not Athenian so you would not be able to tell what nearby actually means when it comes to Athens amazing geomorphology. What I saw you was how inflated the WMO station of downtown Athens in T maxes is compared to the Davis fan aspirated nearby in Gazi. We are talking about differences in T maxes around 2C or even more on clear less windy days. 

Now when it comes to Kasos cocos, I agree we need to actually try over there. Here is hoping that we will find a local who will have the first planted cocos on the ground in geographical Europe to actually survive. 

[Victor G.]

8 minutes ago, Alicante said:

Really? I didn't know it. Well then we should make one, since we are few here interested in that topic, I see UK Palms is also very active on this topic and probably some other people can interact in that thread too even if they aren't from Europe. But definetly 2022 deserves a thread to keep all of these phenomenons recorded somewhere for the future! 

Yeah it's one of the reasons that I joined Palmtalk (the other one being interested in plants). I'd like to see how it affected the other countries, because this winter has been hell in Greece and Cyprus. At least plant-wise. We've had countless tropical plants die or get severely damaged from this January/March cold waves.

By the way I knew about the Cypriot, Malagan and Maltan coconuts but I didn't know about the Tel Avivian one. I'm really curious if it made it through this winter, cause I've been monitoring their climate and they got hit hard too, with a few day temps staying at 10°C.

All this suggests that it would be dead by now, but I'd like to learn it's result

[southathens]

3 hours ago, Alicante said:

Guys what do you think about making a 2022 thread regarding ALL of Europe and the extreme/crazy weather we have had until now and we will probably have this year? 

It would be great to make a compilation in a single thread. As this would be epic and everyone can share things about theirs or other countries.

At the moment. Greece had a top 3 coldest March on record. Snowfall records on various countries. Drought record in the UK. Eastern Spain had the wettest March on record, with places surpassing 1.000mm just in March, NOT A JOKE!!! More than 1 freaking thousand milimeters (39.8 in) of rainfall, even today several April cold records were broken in Europe!

Btw yeah!I am also all in! It will be nice to have a single thread detailing these events!!!

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

4 minutes ago, Manos33 said:

I think you are confused but its ok you are not Athenian so you would not be able to tell what nearby actually means when it comes to Athens amazing geomorphology. What I saw you was how inflated the WMO station of downtown Athens in T maxes is compared to the Davis fan aspirated nearby in Gazi. We are talking about differences in T maxes around 2C or even more on clear less windy days. 

Now when it comes to Kasos cocos, I agree we need to actually try over there. Here is hoping that we will find a local who will have the first planted cocos on the ground in geographical Europe to actually survive. 

One question Manos, is there any Greek station (it doesn't matter if it's HNMS or NOA) where all of the winter highs are above 17ºC ? How many with all months above 16ºC ?

As for the moment, based on my own research, with +17ºC in all months (in Europe) I've only found a few ones (in Spain) even for +16ºC in all months I didn't find many in Europe. Only if we get down to +15ºC is where we can find many. As for the only one +18ºC in all months with a somewhat long term data is Málaga Puerto (1999-2021) from Infoclimat. 

But I prefer to take only in account sources like WMO , HNMS/EMY , NOA , AEMET ,  METEOCAT , IPMA , METEOAM , MÉTÉO FRANCE , KNMI and so on. Do you know something about this? Is there any station in Greece with warmer winter highs than Lindos or Kasos? Maybe somewhere in Crete? Keep in mind just counting highs, not monthly/yearly averages!

PS: The summer heat in some parts of Greece is insane. I've been seeking by myself when I had free time and wow... Lindos in summer looks like it's in the middle of the Red Sea!

[southathens]

1 minute ago, Alicante said:

One question Manos, is there any Greek station (it doesn't matter if it's HNMS or NOA) where all of the winter highs are above 17ºC ? How many with all months above 16ºC ?

PS: The summer heat in some parts of Greece is insane. I've been seeking by myself when I had free time and wow... Lindos in summer looks like it's in the middle of the Red Sea!

You know HNMS is crap in having many stations so I ll go with the areas that right now from Davis stations have around 16C winter highs. An HNMS station there would almost certainly have +1C higher maxes. So roughly these are Lindos, Kasos and many in South Crete but most importantly Lentas. If we had an HNMS station in Lentas I reckon we would see 17-18C winter maxes. 

Also the insane summer heat in Greece is explained by this weather pattern we see in the Middle East/Asia Minor which is next to Greece geographically. We can't but be influenced by that ''Eastward'' summer pattern in my opinion. We are more prone than anyone area in Europe to have this crazy summer heat due to our geographical positioning...

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

13 minutes ago, Victor G. said:

Yeah it's one of the reasons that I joined Palmtalk (the other one being interested in plants). I'd like to see how it affected the other countries, because this winter has been hell in Greece and Cyprus. At least plant-wise. We've had countless tropical plants die or get severely damaged from this January/March cold waves.

By the way I knew about the Cypriot, Malagan and Maltan coconuts but I didn't know about the Tel Avivian one. I'm really curious if it made it through this winter, cause I've been monitoring their climate and they got hit hard too, with a few day temps staying at 10°C.

All this suggests that it would be dead by now, but I'd like to learn it's result

As far as I know he germinated lots of them. Here you got the original thread, it's from 2014 but updates were made after, of course!
 

Then you have this massive coconut from Eilat but of course this one doesn't count... that's in the freaking Red Sea! 

 

10 minutes ago, Manos33 said:

Btw yeah!I am also all in! It will be nice to have a single thread detailing these events!!!

Nice to have you too Manos, then we have to make it very soon, if it's possible today. Any suggestions for the title? 

Something like "Crazy European Weather in 2022" ? hahahaha no (although it wouldn't be unreal) but maybe "European Weather 2022 - Rare Events, Records, Extremes..."

[southathens]

2 minutes ago, Alicante said:

 "European Weather 2022 - Rare Events, Records, Extremes..."

I prefer this title tbh! 

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

4 minutes ago, Manos33 said:

I prefer this title tbh! 

Yes, that's the one I like too, actually the other one was kind of a joke. 

Right now, there are ongoing events regarding extreme T Lows in much of Continental Western Europe. Even Pamplona (an important city in Spain) SMASHED the previous April low extreme (-2.2ºC) with -3.4ºC recorded yesterday at 8 AM lol, it's the Airport Station but even the city itself was under -2ºC and it was entirely frozen. 

I've seen parts of Germany went under -10ºC and coastal Netherlands almost -5ºC which is nothing but extreme madness. This is extreme even for January and we're in April!

[Phoenikakias]

8 hours ago, ego said:

Are they faster than kentias?

Yes

[Than]

3 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

Yes

How many new leaves per year do your kentias grow on average? I'm talking about kentias on the ground.

[Phoenikakias]

20 minutes ago, ego said:

How many new leaves per year do your kentias grow on average? I'm talking about kentias on the ground.

Not sure, it depends on winter and summer temps as well. You can not imagine how positively many oceanian palms react to a so called cold summer here, when temps rise barely above 30 C.

[Than]

3 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

Not sure, it depends on winter and summer temps as well. You can not imagine how positively many oceanian palms react to a so called cold summer here, when temps rise barely above 30 C.

Last June was like that. But I cannot imagine any Greek summer being like that in its entirety. It will definitely be above 30 on most days and above 35 often.

I have a kentia in a pot; one leaf per year.

[Phoenikakias]

9 hours ago, Alicante said:

Yes, that's the one I like too, actually the other one was kind of a joke. 

Right now, there are ongoing events regarding extreme T Lows in much of Continental Western Europe. Even Pamplona (an important city in Spain) SMASHED the previous April low extreme (-2.2ºC) with -3.4ºC recorded yesterday at 8 AM lol, it's the Airport Station but even the city itself was under -2ºC and it was entirely frozen. 

I've seen parts of Germany went under -10ºC and coastal Netherlands almost -5ºC which is nothing but extreme madness. This is extreme even for January and we're in April!

As far as central and northern Europe is concerned, natural order has been restored. Unnatural were negative or close to 0 values in coastal Greece during March, which I can attest to, as I pay much attention to weather because of the palm hobby. Btw my outplanted Royal is still alive, moderately tormented, yet still alive and it's pushing a new spear.

[Phoenikakias]

1 minute ago, ego said:

Last June was like that. But I cannot imagine any Greek summer being like that in its entirety. It will definitely be above 30 on most days and above 35 often.

I have a kentia in a pot; one leaf per year.

I remember two or three in the past, one being surely 2006 or 2005. I speak of course of Attica only.

[Than]

5 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

As far as central and northern Europe is concerned, natural order has been restored. Unnatural were negative or close to 0 values in coastal Greece during March, which I can attest to, as I pay much attention to weather because of the palm hobby. Btw my outplanted Royal is still alive, moderately tormented, yet still alive and it's pushing a new spear.

What's the lowest temperature it saw this winter? Any photos? 

Edited April 4, 2022 by ego

[Phoenikakias]

12 minutes ago, ego said:

What's the lowest temperature it saw this winter?

I do not know exactly, but based on the performance of the most tender plants I assume slightly above or below 0, just decimal digits.

[Than]

1 minute ago, Phoenikakias said:

I do not know exactly, but based on the performance of the most tender plants I assume slightly above or below 0, just decimal digits.

Nice. I ordered some seeds from RPS hehe. 

[Phoenikakias]

Just now, Phoenikakias said:

I do not know exactly, but based on the performance of the most tender plants I assume slightly above or below 0, just decimal digits.

I know I have to buy a min max thermometer or a weather station. Problem with the thermometer is that analog ones do not use mercury anymore and are quite unreliable bcause they fail frequently to respond to temperature fluctuation, electronic ones can not stand the winter maritime humidity, especially the external unit.

[Phoenikakias]

12 minutes ago, ego said:

Nice. I ordered some seeds from RPS hehe. 

Lest assured that without the snow (Aegean jetstream) with exactly same temperature, situation would be more favorable for the cultivation of tropical plants. But we are what we are and I prefer to see the positive aspect ie full water reserves. We do not even enjoy a poor rainfall in summer as is the case with many oceanic areas and we lack tall Sierras with ever lasting glaciers feeding day and night all year round ever running big rivers (at least not in eastern Greece), so winter precipitation is for us more than vital.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Phoenikakias

[Than]

I use an analog one outside. You can check its accuracy periodically using the salt method. 

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

1 hour ago, Phoenikakias said:

As far as central and northern Europe is concerned, natural order has been restored. Unnatural were negative or close to 0 values in coastal Greece during March, which I can attest to, as I pay much attention to weather because of the palm hobby. Btw my outplanted Royal is still alive, moderately tormented, yet still alive and it's pushing a new spear.

Central and Northern Europe got their dose because most of them have been abnormally warm during March. But Spain was actually under average!

Remember Reus? Reus obliterated and smashed it's all time April record since early 1950s with an extreme difference of 3.5ºC !!!!! 

3 all-time historical April records were broken yesterday in Spain. Reus, Pamplona and Ibiza:

Previous April record in Reus: 1.0ºC ..... Yesterday hit -2.5ºC !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Previous April record in Pamplona: -2.8ºC ..... Yesterday hit -3.7ºC
Ibiza also matched it's all time April record low with 3.4ºC in April!



I think it's the moment to open the thread we were talking about. I want to share this with you and I know some of you guys are also very interested in this topic, we also have that extreme UK drought that caused fires, we also have the Greek cold spell, we also have the Spanish record breaking March rainfall, and now 3 April cold breaking stations!

[southathens]

In contrast Greece has had a hot April start so far and Athens is already above April averages so far. This pattern will continue in the coming days as well

[Than]

Bit off topic again. This photo is from Malia, Crete. An adult Ravenala madagascariensis! 

 

[Phoenikakias]

2 hours ago, ego said:

2 hours ago, ego said:

Bit off topic again. This photo is from Malia, Crete. An adult Ravenala madagascariensis! 

 

Swear no joke?

[southathens]

Btw Malia has a very mild climate and it really destroys most of the areas in Crete when foehn winds blow. Today for example Malia registered 30.3C only behind Neapoli which registered Greece's max at 32C