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Filibusta Growth


ZPalms

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I'm gonna start posting growth of my filibustas here! :blush2:

These were from yesterday August, 19th, 6:00pm, 2021! :wub:

The oldest strap leaf seems to be dying back I think and most of them are working on their 5th leaf.

 

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Edited by ZPalms
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30 minutes ago, Philly J said:

11 month twins from seed.  :wub:

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That looks awesome! I'm so excited for all mine to get to this size! Mine have only been planted for 3 months now I think since I planted them in june! :D

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2 hours ago, ZPalms said:

That looks awesome! I'm so excited for all mine to get to this size! Mine have only been planted for 3 months now I think since I planted them in june! :D

3 months looking great my friend!

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...

Another update and they are pushing another new leaf!:wub:

September, 9th, 4:18PM, 2021! :blush2:

One thing is weird though that I planted these all at the same time and 2 of them are extremely slow at catching up with the others but regardless I love them and they can take their time but my sabal is moving quicker than them :floor:

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Cool that you grow them all the way fom seed. You have any other palms you grow? I would definitly add a Butia to my collection, Different Trachies, Different Sabels.for zone pushing perhaps a Brahea armate and Parajubea. Livestona Chinensis also comes to mind.

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5 hours ago, Palmfarmer said:

Cool that you grow them all the way fom seed. You have any other palms you grow? I would definitly add a Butia to my collection, Different Trachies, Different Sabels.for zone pushing perhaps a Brahea armate and Parajubea. Livestona Chinensis also comes to mind.

I plan on sprouting more from seed and getting more species but I wanna get a couple things so I don't have to do baggy method because that's not really ideal when trying to fit the seedlings into these nursery bags and usually always leads me to underplant or causes problems with roots! But I have butia odorata, Beccariophoenix alfredii and chamaedorea radicalis and lots of washingtonia seeds and Phoenix roebelenii which have been planted for a couple months now, The ones I do have already planted in the nursey bags are JXB, Washies, Trachycarpus fortunei, 1 Mystery trachy and 2 Sabal Causiarum! :D

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Is moist soil bad for washies? almost all my palms soil stays moist and don't dry out quick even though I haven't watered anything for 4 days they are all still moist and can that lead to a palm growing slower because 2 of my washies are so far behind my other ones?

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On 9/13/2021 at 2:48 PM, ZPalms said:

Is moist soil bad for washies? almost all my palms soil stays moist and don't dry out quick even though I haven't watered anything for 4 days they are all still moist and can that lead to a palm growing slower because 2 of my washies are so far behind my other ones?

Not all seedlings will ultimately survive. The hardest part about germinating palm seeds seems to be keeping them alive past the 4th or 5th leaf lol
Out of the 6 palmetto seeds i collected last year, 3 germinated, i am left with two, and i am happy with these two. It seems you have several palms there, wouldnt be too bummed about losing one or two, providing they dont make it. I dont have experience with filifera, but if these two seedlings have soggy-ish soil, would probably allow them to dry out some before watering again.

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Palms - 4 S. romanzoffiana, 1 W. bifurcata, 2 W. robusta, 1 R. rivularis, 1 B. odorata, 1 B. nobilis, 2 S. palmetto, 1 A. merillii, 1 P. canariensis, 1 BxJ, 1 BxJxBxS, 1 BxS, 3 P. roebelenii, 1 H. lagenicaulis, 1 H. verschaffeltii, 9 T. fortunei, 1 C. humilis, 2 C. macrocarpa, 1 L. chinensis, 1 R. excelsa

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I thought It was gonna be a year before I would need to repot all of them but they are already trying to escape the bag and I'm unsure what to do so should I repot them or something else? 

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what I think happened is that the bag were sitting on water so the roots decided to dig out of the bag to get too it but it's not even a lot of water it's just wet still from sitting under the bags so I think I'm gonna transfer them out of the bags into actual pots

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  • 2 weeks later...

Look around in your travels and try to spot a place that's being landscaped. Stop and ask the installers if you can have the old growers pots they're taking the plants out of. A lot of times they're happy to give them away. Even if they're getting old you can just double up so they don't split apart as soon. And they'll still grow roots out of the holes in the bottom of the pots, that's just they way it works.

I've been on both sides. Gave them away when I ran a nursery and when I was in a cash bind a few years ago and really needed pots I asked for them from a landscaper planting a new Ace hardware. The landscaper gave me enough to fill my pickup pickup. I bought them a couple $10.00 gift certificates at the grocery store close by and told them to get lunch at the deli counter or whatever.

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7 hours ago, NOT A TA said:

Look around in your travels and try to spot a place that's being landscaped. Stop and ask the installers if you can have the old growers pots they're taking the plants out of. A lot of times they're happy to give them away. Even if they're getting old you can just double up so they don't split apart as soon. And they'll still grow roots out of the holes in the bottom of the pots, that's just they way it works.

I've been on both sides. Gave them away when I ran a nursery and when I was in a cash bind a few years ago and really needed pots I asked for them from a landscaper planting a new Ace hardware. The landscaper gave me enough to fill my pickup pickup. I bought them a couple $10.00 gift certificates at the grocery store close by and told them to get lunch at the deli counter or whatever.

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It kind of makes me nervous to ask since I have nothing that I could give back, I don't feel very ballsy do this cause it makes me feel bad. I don't even know anywhere near me that's in construction or planting anything. It really depends if I could do this though since I would need to depend on somebody else to drive to get me to a nursery since I don't drive.

I doubt I could get my hands on anything quick enough even if I did found somewhere but I don't even know what size I need for my washies but I'm assuming something the same height but wider?

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Got those pots from mypalmshop.com.

Around 30cents per pot, but not sure if they do delivery to the US.

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4 hours ago, Will said:

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Got those pots from mypalmshop.com.

Around 30cents per pot, but not sure if they do delivery to the US.

Dang I was so excited, They don't deliver to the US :crying:

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...

It's been a minute since I've posted any photos which I'll do later but my filibustas have taken to have strong robusta traits from the purple/redish trunk it has developed, I just wanna know and somebody can correct me if i'm wrong but from what i've read a washie can self pollenate itself but it can also take pollen from other palms so does a washie that self pollenates but lets say it's the only washie in a area would the washie be a clone of that same filibusta and or If a washie were to be pollenated by another washie would it take a variation of it's traits?

How many times can I say washie :floor2:

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  • 3 months later...
On 12/4/2021 at 12:52 AM, ZPalms said:

my filibustas have taken to have strong robusta traits from the purple/redish trunk it has developed

Attached is the Hodel (2014) paper on Washingtonia x filibusta that you might find useful.  In it, he does not use the "purple/red tint" trait to differentiate filifera-like, robusta-like, or filibusta-like properties of the palms of the Washingtonia genus.  Instead, he uses mostly trunk height, canopy appearance, leaf color, leaf length, presence of totentum (white felt-like patch) on the hastula (were the petiole meets the frond), and length of inflorescence as visual indicators to differentiate.  I would suspect your specimens are still juveniles, so many of these traits might not be feasible for good observational data at this time; however, you may be able to use leaf (frond/strap leaf) color to help differentiate how much filifera-like or robusta-like traits they have.  As a general rule, the duller, lighter green the frond/strap leaf, the more filifera-like it may be.  Conversely, the more dark green and waxy the frond/strap leaf, the more robusta-like it may be.  It is not an exact science (from what I understand, even the scientists do not uniformly agree on trait differentiation in Washingtonia spp.); however, it is the best we have to go on.  Once your palms get larger, more traits will be observable.

68PhytoN-Washingtoniahybrid.pdf

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Unified Theory of Palm Seed Germination

image.png.2a6e16e02a0a8bfb8a478ab737de4bb1.png

(Where: bh = bottom heat, fs = fresh seed, L = love, m = magic, p = patience, and t = time)

DISCLAIMER: Working theory; not yet peer reviewed.

"Fronds come and go; the spear is life!" - Anonymous Palmtalker

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A tale of three palms.

Pictured below are three juvenile Washingtonia spp. palms that I am growing, all roughly about the same age (about one year to one and a half years old):

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The palm on the left is a Washingtonia filifera that was grown from seed collected from palms growing in situ at Thousand Palm Oasis in Coachella Valley Preserve, California.  See this thread for pictures of the parents:

The palm in the middle is what I believe to be a Washingtonia x filibusta that was grown from seed collected from a palm growing at the Riverwalk in San Antonio, Texas.  A picture of the parent below:

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The palm on the right is what I believe to be a Washingtonia robusta that I procured as a small strap-leaf seedling that was sprouting below a palm growing at the Hilton in Pasadena, California (basically, a blade of grass).  I do not have a picture of that particular parent palm; however, if you search for iconic pictures of L.A., you will probably see pictures of similar palms.  80' plus tall, thin trunk, tight crown on top, basically what is commonly referred to as a "skyduster" in L.A.  If not pure Washingtonia robusta, then pretty darn close.  Close enough for me, so I am calling it a Washingtonia robusta.  (Full disclaimer: I saved that seedling from the gardener's lawn mower, as these are basically weeds in SoCal.  Typically, Washingtonia spp. are notoriously hard to transplant when young seedlings, as they are sensitive to root disturbance; however, the soil under the palm was very loose, and I was able to pull a few without too much root disturbance).

As you can see from the first two pictures, trying to differentiate the various Washingtonia spp. traits at the juvenile stage is hard to do.  All three of these palms were grown under the same conditions over the last year (i.e., same light, watering routine, wind exposure, growing medium, etc.).  It may be hard to tell in the pictures (and you really have to strain to see it in person), but there is a slight differentiation in frond/strap leaf color as you look left to right (i.e., lighter/duller on the left, and darker/waxier on the right).  Other than that, I do not really see any difference at this stage of growth.

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Unified Theory of Palm Seed Germination

image.png.2a6e16e02a0a8bfb8a478ab737de4bb1.png

(Where: bh = bottom heat, fs = fresh seed, L = love, m = magic, p = patience, and t = time)

DISCLAIMER: Working theory; not yet peer reviewed.

"Fronds come and go; the spear is life!" - Anonymous Palmtalker

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2 hours ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

The palm on the left is a Washingtonia filifera that was grown from seed collected from palms growing in situ at Thousand Palm Oasis in Coachella Valley Preserve, California.  See this thread for pictures of the parents:

 

Oh, I'll be going over there as well next week, might get myself some seed from coachella as well. Are they pure filifera? as in, no robusta growing nearby

Edited by spike
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7 minutes ago, spike said:

Oh, I'll be going over there as well next week, might get myself some seed from coachella as well. Are they pure filifera? as in, no robusta growing nearby

They are naturally occurring wild specimens. 

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Lucas

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3 hours ago, spike said:

Are they pure filifera? as in, no robusta growing nearby

They are isolated.  Palm Springs is a few miles away.  I think you would have to do a genetic test of some sort to know for sure.  The large ones are really old, so seeds from those should be a safe bet.  You might want to stay away from seeds of younger/smaller ones if you are unsure.

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Unified Theory of Palm Seed Germination

image.png.2a6e16e02a0a8bfb8a478ab737de4bb1.png

(Where: bh = bottom heat, fs = fresh seed, L = love, m = magic, p = patience, and t = time)

DISCLAIMER: Working theory; not yet peer reviewed.

"Fronds come and go; the spear is life!" - Anonymous Palmtalker

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6 hours ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

Attached is the Hodel (2014) paper on Washingtonia x filibusta that you might find useful.  In it, he does not use the "purple/red tint" trait to differentiate filifera-like, robusta-like, or filibusta-like properties of the palms of the Washingtonia genus.  Instead, he uses mostly trunk height, canopy appearance, leaf color, leaf length, presence of totentum (white felt-like patch) on the hastula (were the petiole meets the frond), and length of inflorescence as visual indicators to differentiate.  I would suspect your specimens are still juveniles, so many of these traits might not be feasible for good observational data at this time; however, you may be able to use leaf (frond/strap leaf) color to help differentiate how much filifera-like or robusta-like traits they have.  As a general rule, the duller, lighter green the frond/strap leaf, the more filifera-like it may be.  Conversely, the more dark green and waxy the frond/strap leaf, the more robusta-like it may be.  It is not an exact science (from what I understand, even the scientists do not uniformly agree on trait differentiation in Washingtonia spp.); however, it is the best we have to go on.  Once your palms get larger, more traits will be observable.

68PhytoN-Washingtoniahybrid.pdf 453.06 kB · 2 downloads

Reading this I think mine are leaning more on filifera because the leaves are that dullish green color I think, I have seen the mother plant and its filibusta on the heavy end of filifera, I'm gonna post pictures!

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9 hours ago, Little Tex said:

picture?

The leaves are a bit leggy cause they were inside all winter under grow lights and I'm acclimating them back to full sun B)

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This is my slowest one, It never grew as quick as the others so I've decided this one will be my potted washie until it gets its strength up :wub:

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20 hours ago, ZPalms said:

Is it ok to plant a 1 year old washingtonia in the ground this spring?

I have planted small ones your size (and smaller) in the ground here before, but I have many available that I have grown from seed (and for cheap).  I also conduct "gorilla" planting operations around the area.  I hedge my bets though, and keep some in reserve in pots as well.  Typically, you will see faster growth with Washingtonia spp. in the grown, particularly during the growing season.  Down side, it is not easy to dig them up if you have a nasty wet freeze event coming (dry freeze events do not worry me too much).  I am at the point now with my Washingtonia spp. that I care more about the precipitation forecast below freezing than I do with the actual temperature low forecast.  Up side to having some in pots is that you can control more variables with a transportable potted palm (i.e., light, location, temperature exposure, etc.).  Just bring them inside if nasty weather is on the way.  With the operation you are running (at least from what I have seen in your posts), I would say go for it.  Plant a few in the ground in the most protected spots you can find, and see what happens.  Just keep "babying" some in pots in case the ground crew doesn't work out.

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Unified Theory of Palm Seed Germination

image.png.2a6e16e02a0a8bfb8a478ab737de4bb1.png

(Where: bh = bottom heat, fs = fresh seed, L = love, m = magic, p = patience, and t = time)

DISCLAIMER: Working theory; not yet peer reviewed.

"Fronds come and go; the spear is life!" - Anonymous Palmtalker

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6 minutes ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

I have planted small ones your size (and smaller) in the ground here before, but I have many available that I have grown from seed (and for cheap).  I also conduct "gorilla" planting operations around the area.  I hedge my bets though, and keep some in reserve in pots as well.  Typically, you will see faster growth with Washingtonia spp. in the grown, particularly during the growing season.  Down side, it is not easy to dig them up if you have a nasty wet freeze event coming (dry freeze events do not worry me too much).  I am at the point now with my Washingtonia spp. that I care more about the precipitation forecast below freezing than I do with the actual temperature low forecast.  Up side to having some in pots is that you can control more variables with a transportable potted palm (i.e., light, location, temperature exposure, etc.).  Just bring them inside if nasty weather is on the way.  With the operation you are running (at least from what I have seen in your posts), I would say go for it.  Plant a few in the ground in the most protected spots you can find, and see what happens.  Just keep "babying" some in pots in case the ground crew doesn't work out.

All my freezes are pretty much done, I'm just wondering if I should plant them in the ground this season to let them start gaining some size and speed and let them spread out before the next winter cause you see in the picture is all I have in general :blush:

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@ZPalms...Only you can really make that call, as only you know the true situation on the ground in your own yard.  It looks like you have five Washingtonia spp.?  If these were my palms, and I was considering planting them here in my yard, I would probably plant at least two, and keep the other three in pots until they got larger.  But in your climate, particularly your humid summers (I used to live not so far away, so I am familiar with them; I have also been to Fort Bragg in the summer), I would probably wait until they had at least one foot of solid trunk.  But that is just one opinion based off of anecdotal observations from many juvenile Washingtonia spp. plantings.  My opinions are obviously biased by my own climatological experiences.  Plant one or two outside, and worst case you loose one or two out of three.  But you still have three more.  Risk is exciting, that is why we love to gamble.

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Unified Theory of Palm Seed Germination

image.png.2a6e16e02a0a8bfb8a478ab737de4bb1.png

(Where: bh = bottom heat, fs = fresh seed, L = love, m = magic, p = patience, and t = time)

DISCLAIMER: Working theory; not yet peer reviewed.

"Fronds come and go; the spear is life!" - Anonymous Palmtalker

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Like @GoatLockerGuns said, it always sucks having to dig palms up - I’ve killed several attempting to do that. However, I dug this washy up last summer and it has recovered nicely. Guess I got lucky, and it probably helped that I transplanted during the warm months rather than the winter

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21 hours ago, spike said:

might get myself some seed from coachella as well.

I was at Thousand Palms Oasis in March of last year, and there were many old growth Washingtonia filifera with ripe drupes.  The problem is that they are usually too high to pick off the palm directly.  You might have to scour the ground around those choice palms for recent fresh fruit droppings.  Be careful what you pick up though, as these dense in situ palm groupings are home to all kinds of critters/rodents. Washingtonia filifera fruits look deceptively similar to rat droppings.  The "park ranger" there (I think he might have been a volunteer) did not mind me collecting fruits (I grabbed about two handfuls).  He thought I was going to eat them.  I am not sure if all of them are that chill, but this old dude was super chill.

If you do not mind a hike, I personally think these are also some great California desert spots to observe Washingtonia fiilfera in situ:

1. Lost Palm Oasis, Joshua Tree National Park.  Take the trail from Cottonwood Springs Campground.

2. Oasis of Mara, Twenty Nine Palms.  Short nature hike in a city park in Twenty Nine Palms.

3. 49 Palms Oasis, Joshua Tree National Park. Take the trail from the end of 49 Palms Oasis Road.  Shorter hike than Lost Palms Oasis, but closer to civilization.

4. Borrego Palm Canyon, Anza-Borrego State Park.  Take the trail from the park visitor center.  This canyon experienced a fire a couple of years back, but I hear the palms made a near complete recovery.

Unified Theory of Palm Seed Germination

image.png.2a6e16e02a0a8bfb8a478ab737de4bb1.png

(Where: bh = bottom heat, fs = fresh seed, L = love, m = magic, p = patience, and t = time)

DISCLAIMER: Working theory; not yet peer reviewed.

"Fronds come and go; the spear is life!" - Anonymous Palmtalker

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It’s such a hard decision to make cause they would be fine since it’s going to be hot soon but you guys make it sound like their a chance for instant winter death in the coming months :floor: 

Is it bad to transplant at this size? I hate keeping palms in pots cause I’m terrible at taking care of potted palms

When it comes to next winter if I were to transplant, I usually get some fencing to put around to keep bunnies or whatever away and then on frosty nights I cover with plastic over the chicken wire or fencing and it does very good at keeping the palm dry on winter weather nights but it tends to get humid extremely quick and depending on the amount of filifera in my palms they may hate it if I’m not fast in the morning

How much growth could I estimate in the growing season if I were to transplant like what size would it get to? 

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12 hours ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

I also conduct "gorilla" planting operations around the area. 

Is that when you plant on public property? I want to try but I wasn't sure if it was legal...

Lucas

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I don’t see why not. This was literally a seed I pushed into the ground 2 years ago D657BD39-3A93-4992-8B66-57617570B9DC.thumb.jpeg.6d71245fa08bc045d5c75ddf25c9c5a0.jpeg

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4 hours ago, RyManUtah said:

I don’t see why not. This was literally a seed I pushed into the ground 2 years ago D657BD39-3A93-4992-8B66-57617570B9DC.thumb.jpeg.6d71245fa08bc045d5c75ddf25c9c5a0.jpeg

I was thinking of just getting pots to put mine in but this actually sparks my interest again to just plant them in the ground because buying several pots are expensive and it’s nice to just let them grow with no repotting

Edited by ZPalms
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8 minutes ago, ZPalms said:

I was thinking of just getting pots to put mine in but this actually sparks my interest again to just plant them in the ground because buying several pots are expensive and it’s nice to just let them grow with no repotting

Agreed. Like you say you are, I am also terrible at caring for potted specimen (that aren’t a cactus). 
Have you considered buying a bucket at a big box for a backup and drilling holes in it? They’re like $4. 

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6 minutes ago, RyManUtah said:

Agreed. Like you say you are, I am also terrible at caring for potted specimen (that aren’t a cactus). 
Have you considered buying a bucket at a big box for a backup and drilling holes in it? They’re like $4. 

Funny enough I was at Lowe’s a couple days ago and I was looking at pots but then thought of the buckets and I was going to get some but I don’t get money often so buying about 7 of them for all my washies would of put me at 0$ and I wouldn’t wanna be broke over buckets :floor:

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