Caryota Sp. "Black"

[feijoa]

I saw a grower list this as a Zone 7-17 but I can't find any claim online to support zones less then 9b. Just wondering what everyones thoughts are.

[Walter John]

never heard of it.

[deezpalms]

I've heard this as a reference to Caryota gigas before.

[indie]

I don't think any of the Caryota's are zone 7 hardy. C. gigas is the most hardy out of the species, and it's easily zone 10...maybe a dry cold 9b.

[Steve in Brookings]

The classification quandary over the C. gigas/obtusa cline continues.  They spread from India to Thailand in a broken swath of tropical to subtropical montane sites.  Are they all a single species?  That seems to be the modern consensus.  But what satisfies botanists who look at flower morphology isn't always satisfying to palmophiles who are more interested in how much cold-hardiness runs in the DNA.  Whether they are different species, or one species with different varieties, they occur over varying climates, and one would have to presume that the lower altitude/lower latitude populations would not have as much hardiness as the more northerly ones.  As with C. 'Himalaya' and C. 'Mystery', the varietal epithet 'Black' is being used informally for plants whose precise nomenclature is uncertain and perhaps, not yet formally established by botanists.  For some time, the black-trunked Caryotas in northern India have been rumored to have the most hardiness.  Simply calling them C. gigas or C. obtusa is not sufficient to identify this purportedly special population.  The black trunk is claimed to be the distinguishing feature of the hardiest of the clan.  C. 'Black' a.k.a C. 'Black Trunk', is a simple expedient for referring to a particular population that has no other means of identifying it.  Whether or not specimens reared in cultivation will actually have a blackish trunk is something that remains to be seen, I suppose.  

One would have to wonder what zonation system "7-17" represents.  The USDA zones traditionally stop at 12, though the system is extensible in theory.  At best, there may be some Zone 14 pockets in the deep tropics.  "Zone 17" would have an average overnight low temperature of 100F during the coolest time of the year, so it wouldn't seem that the indicated zones apply either to the USDA or Sunset Zones.  USDA 10a is generally the starting point, though there seem to some Caryotas that survive to maturity in some (though not all) 9b climates.

[deezpalms]

I thought the only black trunked Caryota is gigas??  ???

[JD in the OC]

Juvenile C. gigas here in Socal seems to get damaged around 20 degrees during our January chill...

All of the C. obtusa i've seen look like a gigas, but with a tan trunk, whereas all the gigas i've seen have a dark trunk.  Botanically, they are probably the same species based on flower morphology, but differentiating them based on trunk color seems to be popular among collectors...  Consider Chambeyronia macrocarpa and hookeri for example...

Jd

[Eric in Orlando]

There was a Caryota being sold for awhile as C. laosensis that was called a Black Fishtail. l[I]aosensis isn't a valid name, I think it was just C. obtusa that was collected in Laos. The 2 I have grown don't look much different than C. gigas or obtusa, maybe a slightly darker trunk.

[Phil]

I think in my experience, when the term "Black Trunk" Caryota is used, one is referring to Caryota gigas.  The petiole and its attachment are quite dark, approaching black.  But, as the tree gets larger, the trunk is more of a tan color.  The petioles and their base remain dark, but the trunk is not "black".  I have a containerized 14 foot specimen of Caryota "phillipinense" at the nursery which has at least as much black fibers/color as the C. gigas at the base of the petiole.  But, I cannot comment on future trunk color.  Caryota ochlandra that I've grown from seeds seem to have dark tomentum near the base of the petiole.  But, the trunk is not black.  If anyone out there has a photo of a true black trunk on a mature Carytoa, I'd love seeing it.

Phil

[MattyB]

These caryota discussions are quite interesting.  Very well said Steve, thanks.

[Eric in Orlando]

Phil,

I have a palm that was labeled Caryota philippinensis when I got it. It looks very similar to a . In Kew's list, there is an old name, C. rumphiana var. philippinensis which is now known as C. maxima. This seems to be the tropical C. maxima. I have a C. maxima and it and the "philippinensis" are very tender, they burn at about 30-31F. Not to be confused with the "Himalayana" or "Himalayan Mountain" Fishtail which is much hardier but some say might be C. maxima. If this is true then there are 2 forms of C. maxima, a tender and a hardy one.

[osideterry]

The Caryota genera really needs to get nailed down at some point. The term "Himalayan" seems to be used with C. maxima (which might be C. urens) as well as C. obtusa (which is probably C. gigas). I've never seen C. rumphiana and C. maxima connected until now.

I've also heard that the older C. urens was less coldhardy than the newer mountain form (which again might be C. maxima). Is it possible there is no C. maxima, and that the tender one is C. rumphiana, and that the hardy one is C. urens?

[feijoa]

(Steve in Brookings @ Jul. 18 2007,19:05)

QUOTE

One would have to wonder what zonation system "7-17" represents.  The USDA zones traditionally stop at 12, though the system is extensible in theory.  At best, there may be some Zone 14 pockets in the deep tropics.  "Zone 17" would have an average overnight low temperature of 100F during the coolest time of the year, so it wouldn't seem that the indicated zones apply either to the USDA or Sunset Zones.  USDA 10a is generally the starting point, though there seem to some Caryotas that survive to maturity in some (though not all) 9b climates.

The 7-17...Specifically "Zone 17" is what make my chuckle.

[indie]

I personally like Caryota zebrina and Caryota ophiopellis the best, except they're quite finicky but so striking! Seems hardly anyone grows these, but then again seed is expensive.

[mppalms]

Steve in Brookings mentions a Caryota sp. 'Mystery'.  I have seen this listed somewhere (can't remember where off-hand) as a someone hardier clumping fishtail.  Does anyone know anything about it and whether it is offered if it's not just "palm marketing"?  Thanks.

Jason

[Phil]

Eric,

At our nursery, we got down to 25 degrees this past winter.  None of our outdoor Carytotas were hurt.  But, around the area, some gigas were hit.  I don't know of any urens that were demolished.  Surprisingly, the "Caryota sp. phillipinense" discussed above was untouched as well.  It's a cool plant with a lot of black on the stem/base and small, dense  leaflets.  It looks nothing like urens.  By locality, you'd think it wouldn' be that cold hardy.  Is it a maxima, who knows?  I agree with the comment that the Caryota genus needs work.

Phil

[Phil]

No photos of Caryotas with black trunks???

Phil

[Kim]

The mystery of who's who in palms has been going on for a few centuries and is expected to continue indefinitely.  I've been doing some amateur work for the new Palmpedia and came upon this link (thanks Jan!):

http://www.kew.org/wcsp....1559887

Click on the link, type in Caryota, and you'll get a long list, mostly of unaccepted names, with several accepted names in bold.  Click on any name for more information.  Notably absent:  any reference to 'Black', 'Himalayana', or 'Philipinense'.

As Steve in Brookings notes, these variations are seen by growers, but don't or haven't yet satisfied botanical requirements for separate species, or simply haven't been fully described, or possibly have been described in the past with one of the many "unaccepted" names listed, and later reclassified.  It's a murky pool to dive into, and the water is too deep for me, but it's interesting to dip my toe in.

[osideterry]

I just clicked on the kew link. Biggest surprize? Caryota gigas not an accepted name, but is synonamous with Caryota obtusa (accepted name). hmmm

[alex_7b]

My first idea was that the z7-z17 represented Sunset zones. I am not that familiar with them as they are only of use out in CA. Still, I DO know that Sunset z10 is WAY too cold for any Caryota.

[monkeyranch]

Zones 7-17 are sunset zones and I'm gonna guess the vendor selling these Caryota sp. 'black' is Neon Palms/Palm Island Nursery of Santa Rosa/Winters/Vacaville in CA.  They have two retail locations and the growing grounds.  I ran across this hardiness estimate while looking over their website.  I have been growing C. m. 'Himalaya' at 2000' el. in the Sierra Foothills near Penn Valley where they saw 23 deg F last winter, 2' juveniles.  Only yellowing and no burn got me looking to buy a couple of larger ones.  Parajubaea tor. microcarpas also sailed through without a scratch.  Other marginals include Allagopteria arneria, Arenga micrantha, A engleri, Phoenix loureiroi, P. sylvestris robusta, Brahea berlandieri and dulcis, Ceratonia, Brachychiton, Podranea, Cestrum, Wash. Navels, Lisbon lemon, and Tecomaria.  I am on a nice USDA 9a thermal belt hill but in Sunset 7 on the map.  This zone is sort of a "catch-all" spanning local microclimates from USDA 9a to 7a.  It is described as the Grey Pine Belt but includes everything above the Sunset 9 thermal belt(USDA 9b -about 0'-1000' el), through the Oaks(USDA 9b to 8b), the Ponderosa Pines(USDA 8b to 7b- 2200' to 4000' el), and all the way to below Sunset 1 (USDA 7a-beginning of Fir/Mixed Pine Zone- about 4000' to the treeline).  Commercial Satsuma Mandarin groves can be found in lower Sunset 7 and the upper areas can have snowcover and be frozen for a week or more.  Just too broad on the map to accurately describe the contorted landscape of mountainous frost pockets and banana belt hillsides thus you have too estimate your own situation.  The wine industry has some very good microclimatologists in their ranks.  It should at least be split into a lower 7 where the Interior Live Oak are (1000'-2200' el) and an upper 7, Ponderosa Pines and above.  Anyhow too make a long story longer, the most cold-hardy reputation of Caryota sp. 'Black' has me on a quest for seeds for my nursery.  I have not seen these on any of the bigger seed companies' list for awhile.  Does anyone know of the original source?  Anyone want to rummage around the Himalayan Foothills to find a few thousand of these?  While your at it maybe stop off in the Andean hills and grab some of those hidden super hardy Syagrus, Acrocomia, and Attalea?  Then off to the mythical Urbenville Archontophoenix frosticus before the post office?  Krisachar?  Alberto?  Well alright, maybe I'll try some cocosoidal hybrids instead.  Anyhow good topic and remember without the frost monster no "chatty-chatty" in forum about hardiness limits.  Seems like it might be boring only trading pictures of Pigafettas,   and Cyrtostachys  all the time.  I wish.

[ruskinPalms]

Anyhow good topic and remember without the frost monster no "chatty-chatty" in forum about hardiness limits.  Seems like it might be boring only trading pictures of Pigafettas,   and Cyrtostachys  all the time.  I wish.

Well. The frost monster has almost made a visit already this year. Unlike in California, when it gets down into the 33's to the 38's here in central FL the frost monster rears his ugly head and wreaks havoc on the landscape... I have Caryota mitis planted out. Sigh. Kinda' slow compared to other palms I have.. But so far so good in a Florida USDA 9B.

[PalmGuyWC]

OK, with all the discussion above....Is there a cayota that will take 22 or 23F with no damage, and is that with or without overhead protection? I'd be tempted to try one if it would take 23F. My so called Hardy Urens came through last winter with some pretty cold temps. but I had a sheet thrown over it and a 100W light on at night. The one growing in a container that I could have protected, but didn't, got 50% foliage burn at 23F. under screen. The emerging spike was undamaged and opened in the spring.

Dick

[Phil]

I think for cold, Caryota urens is still the best bet.  It is definitely more cold tolerant than gigas.

Phil

[Caryota_gigas]

(mppalms @ Jul. 21 2007,16:11)

QUOTE

Steve in Brookings mentions a Caryota sp. 'Mystery'.  I have seen this listed somewhere (can't remember where off-hand) as a someone hardier clumping fishtail.  Does anyone know anything about it and whether it is offered if it's not just "palm marketing"?  Thanks.

Jason

mystery is a nice palm with very large leaflets. I have 3 with the largest at around 4 metres (13 feet), none with any sign of clumping, and I dont think they ever will.

[Caryota_gigas]

(Phil @ Nov. 26 2007,00:22)

QUOTE

I think for cold, Caryota urens is still the best bet.  It is definitely more cold tolerant than gigas.

Phil

Interesting, as in NZ C.ochlandra and C. gigas are considered more cold hardy than Urens. There is still a lot to learn and a lot of sorting out that needs to be done in the respect to Caryota.

[Alan_Tampa]

mystery is a nice palm with very large leaflets. I have 3 with the largest at around 4 metres (13 feet), none with any sign of clumping, and I dont think they ever will.

'mystery clumper' saw about 30F here with no problems, a little  brown tipping maybe. My 'mystery clumper' is about 8 or 9 meters, maybe 10, from 2 1/2 meters 4 1/2 years ago.  No signs of clumping. ( I doubt this will happen from what others report)  No black trunk either.

Alan

[iwan]

(Eric in Orlando @ Jul. 20 2007,09:59)

QUOTE

Phil,

I have a palm that was labeled Caryota philippinensis when I got it. It looks very similar to a . In Kew's list, there is an old name, C. rumphiana var. philippinensis which is now known as C. maxima. This seems to be the tropical C. maxima. I have a C. maxima and it and the "philippinensis" are very tender, they burn at about 30-31F. Not to be confused with the "Himalayana" or "Himalayan Mountain" Fishtail which is much hardier but some say might be C. maxima. If this is true then there are 2 forms of C. maxima, a tender and a hardy one.

Here is a reported C maxima "himalayana" that survived several 18F nights last winter in a rural area near Fresno.  I think I posted some pictures of this shortly after the freeze in the Freeze Damage section.  Standard urens at the same location was toast.