What Limits the Range of Rhapidophyllum Hystrix

[NC_Palms]

For such a cold hardy palm, why doesn’t the needle palm continue it’s range further north up the Carolinas? 

[Brad Mondel]

There are reports that it is native to South Carolina...

[kinzyjr]

@NC_Palms

They can survive in climates much further north, but they are not prolific reproducers from everything I've heard and read.

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Seeds are not easy to get to for birds or any other animal.  It makes sense to me that bears were responsible for spreading this species since the Mississippi river is a hard barrier even though they would absolutely thrive in Louisiana.  

[Flow]

In my climate, they are more difficult to grow than Sabal minor or Trachycarpus fortunei. I have lost two. Winter lows were around -10/-12C (so nowhere near what that species is said to be able to survive). T. fortunei and Sabal minor have survived unprotected thus far. Perhaps there is something else to this palm?

Edited July 26, 2018 by Flow

[PalmatierMeg]

52 minutes ago, Flow said:

In my climate, they are more difficult to grow than Sabal minor or Trachycarpus fortunei. I have lost two. Winter lows were around -10/-12C (so nowhere near what that species is said to be able to survive). T. fortunei and Sabal minor have survived unprotected thus far. Perhaps there is something else to this palm?

A palm that cold hardy requires hot, humid summers to balance winters. Without those they will eventually die. Everthing I've researched indicates this is a relict palm that actually may be on the way to extinction except for intervention by mankind. It reproduces only sporadically so may not be generating enough offspring to replace adults that die off. Some sources claim this species had a now-extinct animal vector, aside from bears, that ate fruit and spread seeds, i.e., the "giant sloth theory."

[DoomsDave]

5 minutes ago, PalmatierMeg said:

A palm that cold hardy requires hot, humid summers to balance winters. Without those they will eventually die. Everthing I've researched indicates this is a relict palm that actually may be on the way to extinction except for intervention by mankind. It reproduces only sporadically so may not be generating enough offspring to replace adults that die off. Some sources claim this species had a now-extinct animal vector, aside from bears, that ate fruit and spread seeds, i.e., the "giant sloth theory."

Looks like we're the animal vector now. Extinction would be such a bummer.

They do well in California, though they need lots of extra water.

[PalmTreeDude]

I have seen wild ones around the Hilton Head Island area in South Carolina (it really is a palm hot spot). They were in a little creek and were growing on the slope that went down to the water. I only saw about five of them though. Nothing like the Sabal palmetto, minor, and Saw palmetto, which were completely everywhere in the woods. Rhapidophyllum hystrix takes soooooo long to germinate. I had a few seeds and only two grew, and this was after months of sitting in a plastic baggy. But when they germinated they grew pretty quickly surprisingly. I have one in my backyard and it never gets protected and never gets damaged by the cold. 

[PalmTreeDude]

Also here is something you should look at (it has other palm ranges too, but some don't cover their full ranges, like Sabal palmetto). https://plants.sc.egov.usda.gov/core/profile?symbol=RHHY 

[Flow]

1 hour ago, PalmatierMeg said:

A palm that cold hardy requires hot, humid summers to balance winters. Without those they will eventually die. Everthing I've researched indicates this is a relict palm that actually may be on the way to extinction except for intervention by mankind. It reproduces only sporadically so may not be generating enough offspring to replace adults that die off. Some sources claim this species had a now-extinct animal vector, aside from bears, that ate fruit and spread seeds, i.e., the "giant sloth theory."

Interesting! Yes, we lack summer heat but Sabal minor still grows satisfatorily. Maybe our winters are too damp and wet. 

[NC_Palms]

12 hours ago, Brad Mondel said:

There are reports that it is native to South Carolina...

Yeah but only in the southernmost portions of the state. 

 

2 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

A palm that cold hardy requires hot, humid summers to balance winters. Without those they will eventually die. Everthing I've researched indicates this is a relict palm that actually may be on the way to extinction except for intervention by mankind. It reproduces only sporadically so may not be generating enough offspring to replace adults that die off. Some sources claim this species had a now-extinct animal vector, aside from bears, that ate fruit and spread seeds, i.e., the "giant sloth theory."

I wonder if the needle palm was ever historically found further north? It seems possible. 

 

 

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Needles need a lot more heat than sabal minors as do the seeds to initiate germination.  If you don't prep the seeds they'll take a while like serenoa or copernicia. 

[PalmatierMeg]

Germination rates for this dioescious species are quite low. Of 10-20 seeds sent to me from another palm lover, only 2 eventually germinated and those seeds germinated a year apart. This species is not geared toward mass production. Fortunately, it is quite beautiful and well worth growing.

[hbernstein]

22 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

A palm that cold hardy requires hot, humid summers to balance winters. Without those they will eventually die. Everthing I've researched indicates this is a relict palm that actually may be on the way to extinction except for intervention by mankind. It reproduces only sporadically so may not be generating enough offspring to replace adults that die off. Some sources claim this species had a now-extinct animal vector, aside from bears, that ate fruit and spread seeds, i.e., the "giant sloth theory."

It might not have a very large natural range and it might not be reproductively prolific, but I take issue with the notion of the species being on the way out. It occurs over a large area of Florida, for example. In suitable habitat, it can have fairly large populations. I've seen areas where young plants are growing well, even without any large, old individuals around.

Needle Palms are tough survivors in the proper environmental niche. I compare them to cycads; superbly suited to continue doing what they've been doing for a long time, just as long as rapid environmental and climate change doesn't overcome them.

 

They also remind me of Cottontop Cactus, Echinocactus polycephalus, a species that lives in very challenging environments and has been creeping around the driest parts of the Mojave Desert for perhaps 30,000 years. Rapid anthropogenic climate change may be the single factor that overwhelms the species and also many of our beloved palms!

[hbernstein]

One more idea: seeing Needle Palm in habitat made me think that perhaps the needles exist to do more than just protect the developing, calorie-rich seeds. Biting ants sometimes colonize the litter and palm "fuzz", too. The ants certainly provide an effective deterrent to a seed predator, I can attest to that! Biting What was quite apparent is that the needles also trap abundant litter.  I suspect that the trapped litter isn't incidental, but part of the species' nutrient-collecting design. Since Needle Palm often is found on slopes above river floodplains, litter-trapping might be a strategy to capture nutrients from fallen leaves and other debris that might otherwise wash downslope and be unavailable to the plant.

Edited July 27, 2018 by hbernstein
spelling correction

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

23 minutes ago, hbernstein said:

One more idea: seeing Needle Palm in habitat made me think that perhaps the needles exist to do more than just protect the developing, calorie-rich seeds. Biting ants sometimes colonize the litter and palm "fuzz", too. The ants certainly provide an effective deterrent to a seed predator, I can attest to that! Biting What was quite apparent is that the needles also trap abundant litter.  I suspect that the trapped litter isn't incidental, but part of the species' nutrient-collecting design. Since Needle Palm often is found on slopes above river floodplains, litter-trapping might be a strategy to capture nutrients from fallen leaves and other debris that might otherwise wash downslope and be unavailable to the plant.

I can get behind this theory. Snakes love laying about in that trapped litter and sun as well. 

[metalfan]

On 7/26/2018, 10:49:27, PalmatierMeg said:

A palm that cold hardy requires hot, humid summers to balance winters. Without those they will eventually die. Everthing I've researched indicates this is a relict palm that actually may be on the way to extinction except for intervention by mankind. It reproduces only sporadically so may not be generating enough offspring to replace adults that die off. Some sources claim this species had a now-extinct animal vector, aside from bears, that ate fruit and spread seeds, i.e., the "giant sloth theory."

Come to my yard and we can save it from extinction LOL. I must have 50 or more. Maybe I should start collecting the seeds?

 

[PalmTreeDude]

1 hour ago, metalfan said:

Come to my yard and we can save it from extinction LOL. I must have 50 or more. Maybe I should start collecting the seeds?

 

I would collect them. Just be careful, I got stabbed by one of the needles once while collecting seeds from one and it was bad. You have to crack the shells off of the seeds or they basically wont have any chance at germinating at all, or will take way longer than usual. 

Edited July 27, 2018 by PalmTreeDude

[kinzyjr]

Thanks to @TexasColdHardyPalms, I have 12 of them now

[metalfan]

8 minutes ago, PalmTreeDude said:

I would collect them. Just be careful, I got stabbed by one of the needles once while collecting seeds from one and it was bad. You have to crack the shells off of the seeds or they basically wont have any chance at germinating at all, or will take way longer than usual. 

Yes here is the base of one of mine. The main palms have been in the ground since c1987, planted by the previous owners. The tallest one is about 8 feet. The seeds of these get spread around all over here and they pop up everywhere. That's why I have so many. We live on the edge of a state wildlife preserve so lots of wildlife out here

[PalmatierMeg]

I certainly hope this beautiful palm has a long future ahead of it.