Do Coconut Trees Grow in North and Central Baja/Sonora Mexico?

[Borderline Tropical]

More Coconuts in El Golfo de Santa Clara.

 

https://goo.gl/maps/DtmWSDTuUt131Jbz6

 

 

https://goo.gl/maps/MuzYnQ1v7AyKxZZh9

 

 

https://goo.gl/maps/URDMdKUgxP23xK5r8

Edited March 21, 2023 by Borderline Tropical

[Alex High]

On 3/21/2023 at 2:45 PM, Borderline Tropical said:

More Coconuts in El Golfo de Santa Clara.

 

https://goo.gl/maps/DtmWSDTuUt131Jbz6

 

 

https://goo.gl/maps/MuzYnQ1v7AyKxZZh9

 

 

https://goo.gl/maps/URDMdKUgxP23xK5r8

My gosh there are coconuts everywhere there, those are gorgeous! This should provide inspiration for those in the Arizona/SoCal low deserts. Plant those Cocos!

[PAPalmtrees]

cool @Alex

[Palmfarmer]

On 3/16/2023 at 11:56 PM, Silas_Sancona said:

Have to do some Google Touring, but here are the zones for Chihuahua. Highly doubt there will be any Coconuts there though.




...and down toward where you're located..

I Can see coconuts do ok in the lowest elevation of the state at around 300 meter elevation. 

[Palmfarmer]

On 3/17/2023 at 7:04 PM, GottmitAlex said:

Durango has much better growing zones than Chihuaha does.

At least more good growing zones. At the lowlands of Chihuahua at around 300 meters I am sure Coconuts would grow. 

Once you go west in Durango you will drive over Sierra Madre. Once on top the nature changes drastically when you start driving down towards Mazatlan. In that complete western part bordering Sinaloa you can pretty much grow everything. 

[Silas_Sancona]

So ...with the " ...Can  ...Do   Coconuts fruit in Baja constantly in the back of mind, decided to do summore' googlee' turrin'  This time ending up in Loreto, roughly 145 miles north of La Paz, and 165 or so miles south of the Baja Norte / Sur state line.

Considering the current, prevailing assumption for the region, figured i'd find coconuts, but none that might show evidence of fruiting..

Instead.. i found these.. Found some others, but they're shaded ( sun angle ) or the quality of zoomed in images aren't good enough to make out nuts. 


 Guess we can table the " They don't fruit in Baja assumption a bit? "













And two unexpected trees.  One ( ..of a few ) examples of another tree i'd not expect to find in such a dry place.  Cordia sebestena Image capture #1.  ..And what sure looks like a Fern Tree, Filicium decipiens, Image capture #2.

[mnorell]

The late "Palm Desert coconut' fruited before its beheading, so I don't think it's at all a given that Cocos wouldn't fruit there. But of course there is a real problem with documenting it, at least in tourist areas, since many trees are likely to be stripped of their fruit to avoid the perceived danger of falling coconuts on unwary tourists. Those are really nice specimens you found.

And I think your capture #2 may be Simarouba glauca. Has a slightly coarser aspect than Filicium and I think more likely to be encountered in Mexico. A beautiful tree native to the Mexico-South Florida-Caribbean zone that isn't known in the U.S. much outside of South Florida (and then not even very much). I grew it in the Keys (it is used moderately there) and I thought it a very nice tree, though it was killed by the inundation of Irma, so its high landscape score gets docked a point for saltwater sensitivity. But one worthy of experimentation in marginal climates, including the desert southwest. I have found in my casual experimentation that many natives of the Florida Keys love the Sonoran Desert and can take the winters dependably, short of killing freezes (Cordia sebestena would be a BIG exception to that, it croaks when it feels a slight chill). But it's a bit hard to tell without a more close-up image with a feel for the scale of the leaves/leaflets.

 

[Silas_Sancona]

32 minutes ago, mnorell said:

The late "Palm Desert coconut' fruited before its beheading, so I don't think it's at all a given that Cocos wouldn't fruit there. But of course there is a real problem with documenting it, at least in tourist areas, since many trees are likely to be stripped of their fruit to avoid the perceived danger of falling coconuts on unwary tourists. Those are really nice specimens you found.

And I think your capture #2 may be Simarouba glauca. Has a slightly coarser aspect than Filicium and I think more likely to be encountered in Mexico. A beautiful tree native to the Mexico-South Florida-Caribbean zone that isn't known in the U.S. much outside of South Florida (and then not even very much). I grew it in the Keys (it is used moderately there) and I thought it a very nice tree, though it was killed by the inundation of Irma, so its high landscape score gets docked a point for saltwater sensitivity. But one worthy of experimentation in marginal climates, including the desert southwest. I have found in my casual experimentation that many natives of the Florida Keys love the Sonoran Desert and can take the winters dependably, short of killing freezes (Cordia sebestena would be a BIG exception to that, it croaks when it feels a slight chill). But it's a bit hard to tell without a more close-up image with a feel for the scale of the leaves/leaflets.

 

" Fern Tree " Could definitely be Simarouba,  but may be armara  rather than glauca since armana would be the easier to source from nearby..  https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/291679-Simarouba-amara

Cordia is likely sebestena since it too is commonly grown nearby on the mainland.  Have to re find others i found in Hermosillo that show flowers better.   Only other possible common  " Red Flowered " Cordia would be C. dodecandra  https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/209898-Cordia-dodecandra  but flowers / how the tree grows appear very distinct on that sp.   Would be hard to confuse, even from a distance,  w/ a decent eye. 

C. subcordata would be the only other Orange-flowered Cordia sp possibility,  but, out side of Hawaii, appears it hasn't been observed anywhere else in the U.S, Mexico, and/or Central America ..Which leads back to option #1.

[mnorell]

I'm sure also that is a C. sebestena. Not untenable that it would be growing a little north of La Paz in the warm Gulf of California. It just hates low 40s and below. I know, I have watched them die slowly, hammer after hammer after hammer until it slowly became toast. A real shame as it is one of my favorite trees and so very hardy in every other way, dangit.

Interestingly, there is a specimen of Simarouba glauca noted on GBIF in the same part of Baja...identified by the San Diego Museum of Natural History in a 2009 herbarium sheet they have on file. See record here (though note that the accompanying Lat/Long coordinates are completely wrong), located in El Comitan in Baja California Sur (and noted as being a cultivated specimen in the gardens of the CIB, or Centro de Investigaciones Biologicas, which is located there). I'm not familiar with S. amara which looks to be an absolutely huge rainforest tree...S. glauca is a manageable tree for residential and street purposes and handles drought quite well, so would at least in theory seem to be amenable to the climate and usage as a street-tree there (and which might also mesh with the idea of the CIB possibly planting/evaluating it there?). 

 

[Silas_Sancona]

Noting that Google toured around the area fairly recently ( May 2023 ), ..Some Fruiting  coconuts from Jocotepec and Ajijac, Jalisco, Mexico..  Elevation? ..Above  5K ft. 

Will be revisiting Coconut specimens i'd noted on past street view touring of the area as i find them again/ adding other interesting things as i come across them..

** Some addresses i jotted down are included. **

Near downtown Jocotepec.



215 Juarez ote, 5,057K ft.



87 Calle Emelia Zapata 5,277K ft



...Closer up...



35 La Paz



396 La Paz




16 Ramon Corona






Gi-normus Pseudobombax ( Likely ellipticum )  specimen in front of a large Cactus Nursery ( El Bajio area, halfway between Jocotepec and Ajijac ).  Full of seed.  ..Nursery also has a pretty modern and constantly updated facebook profile showing off some really nice cactus they grow, and numerous other interesting things visible from the road a few clicks south of this position. Not the only Pseudobombax specimen i noted in the area w/ seed hanging from it.




One ..of numerous Adonidia specimens i found in Jocotepec and Ajijic.


.

Current weather down there:  Looks a lot like our current forecast, haha.




From Mexico's 2012 Plant Maps data. Wouldn't doubt, whenever Mexico releases their update, that area will be -at least- 10B now:  ..More later....

[Silas_Sancona]

Sum'  more,  same area....

147 Cristobal Colon, 5,037K ft.  First time seeing any fruits forming on this kid.



108 Los Arcos. 5,059K ft. Up and coming specimens..






226 Ribera del Lago,  Chantepec. 5,209K ft. ..a bit east of Jocotepec along the shore of Lake Chapala, in Chantepec. Tallest Cocos i've found yet ..all with fruit in various stages of development ( closer up = Screen grabs #2, 3, and 4 )











Groups of Coconut specimens directly across from one another along Rivera del Lago, ( Also in Chantepec ) a bit west of the Ribera del Lago specimens..  Tall and all have fruit on 'em. 

Can easily see in the last 2 shots, below this group,  ..what sure look to me.. like mature ..or very close to fully mature nuts hanging off of it.  Address is 75 ( north side of the road ) and 58 ( side of the road that faces Lake Chapala ) elevation is 5,105K ft

[rockinrickyfox]

Growing in Hermosillo sonora by a family member’s house. Also saw a lot by Bahia kino and san Carlos, not entirely happy with dry desertic conditions. But surprisingly they seem to survive without irrigation as adults despite being a tropical species

[Mazat]

On 7/17/2018 at 6:11 AM, GottmitAlex said:

I'm a month and a half away from updating my coconuts' status which are 6 miles south of the San Diego border. 

It will be their two year anniversary. 

Don't want to get ahead of myself. I tend to update every 6 months.

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/54533-coconut-palms-1-year-anniversary-in-the-ground-san-diegotijuana-region/

Knowing that this is an older thread, I'm excited to hear your new update 2025, Alex, coming from you in your thread.
I will definitely provide my coconut plant with warmth soon for the nights and continue to fertilize it, which I always do.
I (we, Sabine is more technically savvy) still need to look into the lighting, but it should work with the lamps.
And one more thing: a quick prayer to the heavens and a little magic, a shaman or a good wizard, and then it might even be possible for it to survive on the balcony... 🤔🤗

Ah yes, miracles are there to make them come true, some wise saying from a good friend 😁

[kylecawazafla]

San Felipe, BCN

 

Guerrero Negro, BCS

 

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, kylecawazafla said:

San Felipe, BCN

 

Guerrero Negro, BCS

 

Wonder if one of the Coconuts in San Felipe is one i'd spotted on streetview.. 

Regardless, Pretty neat to see any there, esp. trunking like that. 

Think it is hot here / doesn't rain too much?   Sitting directly east of the mountains ( Sierra de San Pedro Martir ), and in the driest part of the Sonoran Desert ( ..Yes, it is part of this eco region ) San Felipe is pretty rain starved / hot. 

[Silas_Sancona]

19 hours ago, rockinrickyfox said:

Growing in Hermosillo sonora by a family member’s house. Also saw a lot by Bahia kino and san Carlos, not entirely happy with dry desertic conditions. But surprisingly they seem to survive without irrigation as adults despite being a tropical species

By any chance,  you ...or any of your family know if there is still a coconut growing at the university down there?

Can see it from street view when i've looked around at different things in the area,  but can't tell if it might be producing fruit ( or not ). 

Thought ( a rumour from someone i know who has traveled through that area numerous times  ) there was a couple Coconuts in Caborca as well.



Regardless, agree, pretty dry down there too ( though that part of Sonora has access to more humidity than we do -most of the year at least- ) yet there are decent looking coconut specimens around, esp. once near / south of San Carlos on the gulf coast. 

[rockinrickyfox]

10 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

By any chance,  you ...or any of your family know if there is still a coconut growing at the university down there?

Can see it from street view when i've looked around at different things in the area,  but can't tell if it might be producing fruit ( or not ). 

Thought ( a rumour from someone i know who has traveled through that area numerous times  ) there was a couple Coconuts in Caborca as well.



Regardless, agree, pretty dry down there too ( though that part of Sonora has access to more humidity than we do -most of the year at least- ) yet there are decent looking coconut specimens around, esp. once near / south of San Carlos on the gulf coast. 

i have no idea, my family members are not the type to care about that sort of thing unfortunately. the ones in bahia kino and san carlos 100% produce fruit. i saw a few trees with the green baby nuts hanging on there. this one by the house in hermosillo has flower stocks but i suspect since it has no pollination partner nearby for probably miles it never forms nuts. i had my eyes peeled but all i saw was mainly mexican fan palms a few filiferias and probably hybrids and some kind of Roystonea species planted all over. i was surprized to see no queen palms.  back to the coconut im convinced it would fruit if it got pollinated as the temps in Hermosillo are steadily hot even in the winter. but from what i could tell i didnt see any other coconut palms nearby. or in the city at all. other than that one.

[Silas_Sancona]

4 minutes ago, rockinrickyfox said:

i have no idea, my family members are not the type to care about that sort of thing unfortunately. the ones in bahia kino and san carlos 100% produce fruit. i saw a few trees with the green baby nuts hanging on there. this one by the house in hermosillo has flower stocks but i suspect since it has no pollination partner nearby for probably miles it never forms nuts. i had my eyes peeled but all i saw was mainly mexican fan palms a few filiferias and probably hybrids and some kind of Roystonea species planted all over. i was surprized to see no queen palms.  back to the coconut im convinced it would fruit if it got pollinated as the temps in Hermosillo are steadily hot even in the winter. 

I've spied a few Queen palms in Hermosillo during my street view excursions, but definitely not common. Probably suffer the same deg ( maybe more ) of heat damage they do up here in / around Phoenix.. 

Agree 100%,  as warm and dry as winters are there, see no reason why " Hermosillo " coconuts couldn't set viable fruit, esp. if in close proximity. 

 

[Silas_Sancona]

One of a couple, addtnl. Coconuts spied in the Hermosillo area ( Northern side of town ) yesterday..  Unfortunately, could not get closer to those ( Streets they're on aren't mapped by street view. ) Hard to tell in the shot but thinking some of the bulges i can make out in the crown of it may be developing fruits. 


Note the stark difference between how it looks compared to the Queen on the right.





Didn't save the shots but, Found a ton more Coconuts along / east of the Malecon'  in La Paz,  ...As well as numerous Adonidia specimens there.  Sighted a few of those in Guaymas as well. 
 

[bubba]

Great to see fruiting coconuts so far north of La Paz. Desmond Muirhead in his book "Palms" stated that coconuts, though dwarfed, could be found approximately 100 miles north of La Paz. Obviously, that was well before Google Earth, and only an estimate. Your pictures show conclusively that fruiting coconuts are occurring much closer than Mr. Muirhead opined.

As to Cordia sebastena or Geiger trees, these are an easy grow in Palm Beach County and are even considered natives.

https://www.wildsouthflorida.com/geiger.tree.html

I have no doubt that coconuts will become much more common, particularly in the desert southwest portion of the United States. Too many specimens well on their way. It is unfortunate that these plantings are not done on a grander scale by commercial developers, although I would prefer not to see more commercial developers!

[Silas_Sancona]

...I'll let those more versed in telling them apart debate the   " Which one is which "  but, 

A couple nice Attalea  ..guacuyule??..  near the Venetian in P.V.  

One next to the entrance.. ** Street view imagery captured  May of last year **





Couple others along a nearby trail on the south side of the river,  literally a handful of steps east of the road in front of the Venetian down there..




Not a bad stand - in,  for a non - coconut.    If that sp.,   don't recall much discussion about it here compared to the other sps.. 



Some Macaws ( Acrocomia aculeata ) further up the same trail..   ( Same side of the River, btw. )




Images from the trail may be dated <  ..2014.. >  but all palms are still where spotted today. 


Some iNat observations of the same Macaws as well. 

[mnorell]

Yes, those are Attalea guacuyule in Puerto Vallarta. The species runs in dry coastal forest from Nayarit down through Jalisco, Colima and on down to Guerrero. Significantly smaller than the gargantuan A. cohune (which takes over further down, in Central America) and it is quite coconut-y in appearance because it dispenses with the strict shuttlecock crown and when not overtrimmed has leaves hanging gracefully below the horizontal, as can be seen in the photos above. A splendid thing and you can see it in The Night of the Iguana, which was filmed in Mismaloya in a forest of these palms. This would be a great palm for the low desert of SoCal and Arizona as it loves heat and endures a seven-month dry season in its native habitat. Unfortunately it seems to not be in cultivation in the states and of course difficult to import seed at present. I'm not aware of any specimens in California, and just one that the late Al Bredeson grew from seed he brought back from Puerto Vallarta and planted at his house in Captain Cook, Hawai'i. His property was sold after his death and status of that palm, and any seed that may come from it, is apparently unknown.

[Silas_Sancona]

45 minutes ago, mnorell said:

Yes, those are Attalea guacuyule in Puerto Vallarta. The species runs in dry coastal forest from Nayarit down through Jalisco, Colima and on down to Guerrero. Significantly smaller than the gargantuan A. cohune (which takes over further down, in Central America) and it is quite coconut-y in appearance because it dispenses with the strict shuttlecock crown and when not overtrimmed has leaves hanging gracefully below the horizontal, as can be seen in the photos above. A splendid thing and you can see it in The Night of the Iguana, which was filmed in Mismaloya in a forest of these palms. This would be a great palm for the low desert of SoCal and Arizona as it loves heat and endures a seven-month dry season in its native habitat. Unfortunately it seems to not be in cultivation in the states and of course difficult to import seed at present. I'm not aware of any specimens in California, and just one that the late Al Bredeson grew from seed he brought back from Puerto Vallarta and planted at his house in Captain Cook, Hawai'i. His property was sold after his death and status of that palm, and any seed that may come from it, is apparently unknown.

Palmpedia lists a shot of one from Montgomery B.C. in Miami but,  ...crown / leaflets on the pictured specimen look pretty different compared to a majority of iNat obvs. specimens of the same size,  so 🤷🏽‍♂️ if it is a legit specimen or miss labeled.

Seems ..based upon looking over other iNat. observed specimens and some noted on inat i could get a closer look at in town via street view,  like this 👇🏽



...and shots #2 and 5 in this observation:

https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/331995932



 Seems these start fruiting quite young so i'd imagine it wouldn't be hard for someone to track down a " city dweller " and collect a few seeds. 

I also saw somewhere else that oil is extracted / utilized from the seed,  which makes me wonder if they'd be sold in market places there.   How true that is,  no clue  ..but,  if so,  that might be source for seed that might pass a border inspection easier. 




 

[mnorell]

26 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Palmpedia lists a shot of one from Montgomery B.C. in Miami but,  ...crown / leaflets on the pictured specimen look pretty different compared to a majority of iNat obvs. specimens of the same size,  so 🤷🏽‍♂️ if it is a legit specimen or miss labeled.

Seems ..based upon looking over other iNat. observed specimens and some noted on inat i could get a closer look at in town via street view,  like this 👇🏽



...and shots #2 and 5 in this observation:

https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/331995932



 Seems these start fruiting quite young so i'd imagine it wouldn't be hard for someone to track down a " city dweller " and collect a few seeds. 

I also saw somewhere else that oil is extracted / utilized from the seed,  which makes me wonder if they'd be sold in market places there.   How true that is,  no clue  ..but,  if so,  that might be source for seed that might pass a border inspection easier. 




 

Yes, I too have noticed that specimen at Montgomery, I am pretty certain it is an A. cohune. They have auctioned seed before but I didn't make a bid because I mistrusted the i.d. on it. It's called coco de aceite due to its high oil content (as you note Attaleas in general are great biofuel sources) but so is A. cohune in its native range, so they could be easily confused if trying to order from here. Not sure what technicalities would have to be satisfied to get it here legally. I have thought about writing to the Botanical Garden in Puerto Vallarta but, again, trying to get a plant or seed would no doubt still be a headache. I wish I could find a fruiting one in a botanical garden somewhere in SoCal, but haven't seen one anywhere. Frustrating.

I have a number of A. cohune here, several in the ground from a guy in Florida who really I think wouldn't know which species he had grown, he was vague about the trees from which he collected seed, so I'm thinking they could be A. phalerata or another species more commonly found in Florida; and I also have several still in containers from Jeff Marcus, his tree came from Inge Hoffman years ago and is the real, gigantic A. cohune from central America...not really what I wanted but I'm not getting any younger and they take about three years in the ground before they start pushing anything to speak of, probably looking at another 3-5 years before my biggest "Florida" specimen (which is quite happy in full, hot sun) starts to make an impression...so better what I have than nothing at all...and I doubt I'll ever see anything in this genus get much of a trunk on it, I understand it takes quite a number of years.

 

[Silas_Sancona]

11 hours ago, mnorell said:

Not sure what technicalities would have to be satisfied to get it here legally. I have thought about writing to the Botanical Garden in Puerto Vallarta

This actually came to mind right after i'd posted..   Santa Barbara and P.V.  are sister cities so,   someone up there might have some ideas  ..obtaining seed to be planted at say lotusland or the Huntington at least..  Is a starting place for wider,  future introduction, depending on how they'd do in each location of course.

As far as permits,  guess i need to look into it but,  ..could be some added < and un- necessary  > challenges,  or could be as simple as getting a collection permit / any additional paperwork that might be needed,  and declaring properly collected / packaged seed at customs when returning..   

Spend a week or two down there gives someone  plenty of time to process any seed ( Removal of any fleshy material around it / etc )

...I'm talking about a handful of seeds,  not sending in the plant nerd calvary to load up bags of it,  lol.   ..And obtaining them from urban grown specimens, not collected from virgin habitat  ..unless allowed in certain spots under said obtained paperwork. 



A different discussion for another time obviously,  but,  ..what gets me is this palm ( ..among others ) ..and a number of other interesting trees / etc that could work in local / regional landscapes sit just 4 to 900miles south of here ( little more out there, little less using Tucson's location )    A bird could fly about the same distance in a day.. 

....Is about the same distance as traveling from Golden Beach in S. Ore.,  to Yuma..  Or from Napa / Santa Rosa,  to the border crossing in Nogales, AZ

Yet i  ..or others here..   would have to go through hoops to obtain questionable quality / ID' ed seed from a seed company in .....Europe...    which seems to be able to obtain seed from down there w/ little -assumed- issue?     Something smells ripe about  that..

..Again though, different discussion,  for another time.. 

 

 

12 hours ago, mnorell said:

I have a number of A. cohune here, several in the ground from a guy in Florida who really I think wouldn't know which species he had grown, he was vague about the trees from which he collected seed, so I'm thinking they could be A. phalerata or another species more commonly found in Florida; and I also have several still in containers from Jeff Marcus, his tree came from Inge Hoffman years ago and is the real, gigantic A. cohune from central America...not really what I wanted but I'm not getting any younger and they take about three years in the ground before they start pushing anything to speak of, probably looking at another 3-5 years before my biggest "Florida" specimen (which is quite happy in full, hot sun) starts to make an impression...so better what I have than nothing at all...and I doubt I'll ever see anything in this genus get much of a trunk on it, I understand it takes quite a number of years.

 Interesting thought..  As a smaller statured sp.,  could this sp. be faster than A. cohune,  or some other Attalea behemoths? 

 There's a street view close up of a specimen growing in a park ( Isla Cuale / Gringo Gulch ) that gives an inferred idea of trunk size compared to both the planter it is in / other surrounding,  man- built landscape features,  which to my eye,  seems comparable to some of the skinnier -trunked Phoenix,  some Dypsis , or Kings  rather than being massive,  like A. cohune,  Jubaea,  or even a Royal, ...which grow pretty quick for a big palm,  imo....  

If that's true,  it could imply a faster growth rate..   ..Or at least one that is  " steady, but always moving along"    A  ..." planted now = a few inches of trunk in 8 -12 years" - under ideal conditions-  kind of thing..   like Phoenix,    rather than taking ..decades.. to form -any- deg. of trunk..    A thought..



Ultimately,  if getting seed here were too difficult / expensive of an objective to overcome,   perhaps planting them in areas closest to the border..    TJ,  Mexicali,  San Luis,  and Puerto Penasco = all would be close enough MEX - side locations for getting an idea about how they'd do on this side of the " fence ."  

In some cases,  there are parks ..literally across the street... from the border wall  ..or next to a river that crosses it..    where they could be trialed.   Rodent " agents " and north bound storm runoff could get any seed across the line.  Imagine border patrol resources being used for patrolling for border crossing,  palm / tree seed transporting rats and squirrels,  

Honestly,  don't think getting this interesting palm into cultivation / wider cultivation here would be ..impossible.. 

 If Cordia dodecandra / and some other interesting Mex. specialties i've seen people talking about in various circles recently  can get into a grower's hands on this side of the " border "  ..without all the tape involved in ordering from   ...thousands.... of miles away,     it's probably just a matter of time before this palm makes it's inaugural debut in some gardens here    ..without the help of water  ..and /or furry transporters.