I was just at Havasu Canyon and was very surprised at finding a population of phoenix palms within the canyon. The canyon is part of the vast network of canyons that comprise the Grand Canyon. I took a picture of the largest palm, but there were a handful of others along Havasupai Creek ranging from seedlings to massive clumps like this one. It's hard to tell but this one clump had close to 30 palms and the largest ones had over 20 feet of trunk. If they're reproducing on their own there must be at least one mature male and one mature female. 

Edited July 7, 20187 yr by Josue Diaz

This shot shows the palm above in relation to the canyon walls. 

I saw Phoenix palms down there below all the major falls at Havasupai about 10 years ago. I thought it was pretty cool. I just figured someone spit some seeds into the water or something and they eventually made their way somewhere to take hold.  30 palms is a lot more than I saw, hopefully than can grow tall, that would make for a pretty spectacular scene down in that already amazing canyon.

Bah humbug!  I would hope that these non-native palms are removed soon, before the problem is too large for an effective response.  

8 hours ago, Darold Petty said:

Bah humbug!  I would hope that these non-native palms are removed soon, before the problem is too large for an effective response.  

Ha, I was waiting for that response, didn’t have to wait long lol. 

That area is reservation land I think.  the national park service has no say there..  Having visited the canyon many times(8-10?), I too would prefer that national park land remain native.  If those phoenix are allowed to populate, the access and views would be degraded.  But you figured it out, phoenix palms grow like gangbusters in the heat of arizona as long as they have water.  From my 10 years growing palms in arizona and now 8 yrs in florida I'd say phoenix species ALL grow notably faster in arizona.  

I would not mind seeing them in some parts of the canyon, but not in the main areas! It would be cool to see though over time (might just be me talking as a palm addict). 

I’ve always been found this topic interesting. It’s funny how humans like to think of ourselves as not part of nature. If a bird eats a Phoenix palm seed and poops it into a new area and the palms range expands its considered natural as that’s why the palm evolved edible fruit. But when a human eats the fruit and discards the seed and the palms range expands its called invasive. Personally I don’t see a difference. 

Edited July 7, 20187 yr by Stevetoad

Steve, no bird flew from the Canary Islands, the Mediterranean, or south-east Asia to defecate the seeds

There are myriad examples of negative consequences for the local ecology from species imported by humans.

 

There are plenty of naturalized phoenix palms in Southern California. There will be times where I go hiking and I will see the canyons filled with phoenix seedlings everywhere. I see very little mature plants but many seedlings. I also see plenty of mature Washingtonia robustas, and lots of fig trees.

 

It's also plausible that these are spread by birds. Date palms are grown the Colorado river cities nearby like Laughlin, Bullhead City and Needles. There's even a mature bismarkia in Needles with 15 or more of trunk. It could be possible that birds migrate in and out of the canyon via the Colorado river. I know there's documentation of tropical birds coming from as far as central and southern mexico into the Colorado river canyon. Just a thought 

11 minutes ago, Josue Diaz said:

It's also plausible that these are spread by birds. Date palms are grown the Colorado river cities nearby like Laughlin, Bullhead City and Needles. There's even a mature bismarkia in Needles with 15 or more of trunk. It could be possible that birds migrate in and out of the canyon via the Colorado river. I know there's documentation of tropical birds coming from as far as central and southern mexico into the Colorado river canyon. Just a thought 

I just looked around the Colorado River in Arizona on street view using Google Maps and it is like the Colorado River acts as a passage way for all the palms. The ones I saw were Washingtonia robusta/filifera, Phoenix dactylifera, and Phoenix canariensis. They didn't look bad either, in both health and as good landscape palms, but naturalized. 

7 hours ago, Darold Petty said:

Steve, no bird flew from the Canary Islands, the Mediterranean, or south-east Asia to defecate the seeds

There are myriad examples of negative consequences for the local ecology from species imported by humans.

 

Of course not. And of course there’s problems with species being transported into areas the originally weren’t. But from the view of the “invasive” species it’s just fitter than the rest. Us being animals have mainly transplanted animals and plants because they were either a benifit to us or because we find them attractive. That’s a good evolutionary trait for those species. If it was an early hominid that brought an animal or plant out of its original range we would look at it as being natural. There is no invasive in nature. It’s simply survival and multiply. The European  honey bee is not native  in the USA and were brought here to help pollinate more non native trees and plants. Because we find them useful there range grows and there species multiplies. Which is the goal of all living organisms. I’m not saying we should just let any plant or animal go because it is a negative, I just think it’s funny that we are so quick to look at it as a non natural event. We are part of nature. 

1 hour ago, Josue Diaz said:

It's also plausible that these are spread by birds. Date palms are grown the Colorado river cities nearby like Laughlin, Bullhead City and Needles. There's even a mature bismarkia in Needles with 15 or more of trunk. It could be possible that birds migrate in and out of the canyon via the Colorado river. I know there's documentation of tropical birds coming from as far as central and southern mexico into the Colorado river canyon. Just a thought 

This is true, with some species like Great Tailed Grackles having greatly expanding their range out of Mexico and throughout Arizona and California recently. These birds themselves are perhaps the biggest seed spreader here around Phoenix.. and no doubt are the reason the ground below the Mesquite tree in our backyard is carpeted with Washingtonia seed when it is ripe. Also find Phoenix and Brachychiton seed mixed in when i'm picking seedlings out of plants situated under it. This year, they even started bringing in seed from nearby female Brazilian Pepper.

Also keep in mind that Arizona has several Mammals that are capable of spreading seed over distance. Some like Deer and Javelina would probably find fallen fruit beneath any accessable Date and CIDPs as the feast of all feasts at a time of year when most other things aren't setting fruit, especially during drought years such as this.. Horses and Cattle in the area could also contribute as dispersal agents as well.. 

Switching gears for a second, Josue.. How was the heat up there, Assuming you also did some climbing out in Kingman while in town?

Man is part of nature steve, but when he becomes 80-90% of change in nature is that something we want?  I personally want to protect national treasures like the grand canyon and wild places like yosemite and yellowstone where its really the plants and animals habitat.  I like cats, but don't want large numbers of feral cats running around killing all the birds.  I think national parks are special, I dont want to see that authentic environment tainted.  And if those phoenix thrive, their removal will be prohibitively expensive in those remote areas.  On my property I like to plant what I want.  But in the national parks and wilderness areas, I am not a fan of man-assisted invasive species takeover.

52 minutes ago, sonoranfans said:

Man is part of nature steve, but when he becomes 80-90% of change in nature is that something we want?  I personally want to protect national treasures like the grand canyon and wild places like yosemite and yellowstone where its really the plants and animals habitat.  I like cats, but don't want large numbers of feral cats running around killing all the birds.  I think national parks are special, I dont want to see that authentic environment tainted.  And if those phoenix thrive, their removal will be prohibitively expensive in those remote areas.  On my property I like to plant what I want.  But in the national parks and wilderness areas, I am not a fan of man-assisted invasive species takeover.

I completely agree. I just try to look at us humans from the outside. Its fun to imagine a nature show 20000 years from now talking about how these primitive creatures (humans) were used but all of these plants to expand there range. Look at wheat. It had a tiny range in the Middle East and is now one of the most abundant grasses on earth. Did we take advantage of wheat or did wheat take advantage of us?  

To revive this topic, I was reading The Date Palm and its Utilization in the Southwestern States by Walter Swingle - the guy who created the Limequat - and he notes that Supai at the time of writing (1904) carried a unique potential for the cultivation of date palms.   He mentions that because of its more northern position in Arizona (and therefore length of days), its unique climate - noting that in many years for which he had historical data it did not drop below 32F, the reflected heat of the canyon walls, the constant supply of water free from alkali, and the well-draining soil, it could be an outlying contender for the future cultivation of date palms.  I assume that at some point in the early 1900s, this was probably tried.  It's fully possible these Phoenix palm are descendants of this effort.  There are several places down in the canyon that are 9B on the USDA hardiness maps.  Maybe someone can get a Beccariophoenix alfredii to naturalize down there!

Separately - for an interesting perspective on invasive species, read this book:

https://www.amazon.com/New-Wild-Invasive-Species-Salvation/dp/0807039551/ref=sr_1_7?keywords=invasive+species&qid=1639088171&sr=8-7

Not for the stubborn among you who find it hard to digest perspectives which challenge the way you have thought about things for a long time.  A worthwhile read for anyone who doesn't already know everything.

On 7/7/2018 at 4:15 PM, Stevetoad said:

Of course not. And of course there’s problems with species being transported into areas the originally weren’t. But from the view of the “invasive” species it’s just fitter than the rest. Us being animals have mainly transplanted animals and plants because they were either a benifit to us or because we find them attractive. That’s a good evolutionary trait for those species. If it was an early hominid that brought an animal or plant out of its original range we would look at it as being natural. There is no invasive in nature. It’s simply survival and multiply. The European  honey bee is not native  in the USA and were brought here to help pollinate more non native trees and plants. Because we find them useful there range grows and there species multiplies. Which is the goal of all living organisms. I’m not saying we should just let any plant or animal go because it is a negative, I just think it’s funny that we are so quick to look at it as a non natural event. We are part of nature. 

Don't tell us on the Hawaiian islands about There is no invasive in nature. It’s simply survival and multiply.  There are many places here where NATIVES are being crowded out by INVASIVEs both in plants and animals.  

I honestly don't see a problem with this. In my opinion, the vegetation in the grand canyon looks rather boring and sparse. The palm trees really liven it up and I think even suit it. I don't think it detracts from the views because the canyon is so enormous anyway. I don't see these palms as being invasive. I mean c'mon you don't even see a big mature one anywhere. You know they must grow incredibly slow. This isn't like kudzu of the American south. If anything, the natural wildlife I think would benefit from the shade and fruits. Just because something isn't natural doesnt make it a bad thing. At one point or another, many things were not natural but became so over time. If you want to talk about natural, then tell all the humans to stop coming and throwing trash everywhere. People do way more harm than a few little palm trees ever would. 

Edited December 10, 20214 yr by maskedmole

7 hours ago, WaianaeCrider said:

Don't tell us on the Hawaiian islands about There is no invasive in nature. It’s simply survival and multiply.  There are many places here where NATIVES are being crowded out by INVASIVEs both in plants and animals.  

Its really sad and it impacts even things like stormwater drainage. I was looking up how having native Ohia and Koa forests at high altitudes helps limit runoff and slides in heavy rain events due to their bark and root structures. The problem is that when other animals assist migration of plants to new areas its usually small in numbers but humans remove large amounts of the natives then bring in large amounts of exotics to an altered landscape that prevents the natives from re-establishing.

Always an interesting topic. I can see it both ways and I know invasive plants and animals can be really damaging to the local ecosystem. Brazilian pepper and carrotwood trees come to mind for this area. Both were ornamentals that people thought looked nice in their yards that naturalized and took off crowding out native species creating monocultures that neither look nice nor are good for the local ecosystem. Being a palm nut, I like look of the various palm species that have naturalized in this area like Phoenix hybrids, queen palms, Washingtonia hybrids and I’m sure others. So far, these naturalized palm species have not taken over, formed monocultures, or created a negative impact on the ecosystem in this area like Brazilian pepper that I know of anyway. But as a rule, invasive species probably should be removed when possible because it is hard to predict which could become an ecological disaster in the future. I will pose this question in closing: Does anyone know of any invasive species that have had a positive impact on the ecosystem?

1 hour ago, maskedmole said:

I honestly don't see a problem with this. In my opinion, the vegetation in the grand canyon looks rather boring and sparse. The palm trees really liven it up and I think even suit it. I don't think it detracts from the views because the canyon is so enormous anyway. I don't see these palms as being invasive. I mean c'mon you don't even see a big mature one anywhere. You know they must grow incredibly slow. This isn't like kudzu of the American south. If anything, the natural wildlife I think would benefit from the shade and fruits. Just because something isn't natural doesnt make it a bad thing. At one point or another, many things were not natural but became so over time. If you want to talk about natural, then tell all the humans to stop coming and throwing trash everywhere. People do way more harm than a few little palm trees ever would. 

Not sure when it became ok to trash native landscapes just because they aren't " pretty " enough to satisfy the whims of some, ..but over it..  Full stop...

Natural landscapes aren't there for anyone who thinks they're " boring " to " liven up/ alter " with whatever they think should grow in X area, just to satisfy some out of touch,  self absorbed view of how a landscape should look....  Should we go over to Madagascar and randomly plant Washingtonia and Queen palms anywhere just because there aren't any visible ..out in the wild?..

Anyone who finds the native vegetation of the desert, or some other area boring ..don't ever visit.. ever...  There's a reason the vegetation at the Grand Canyon, Saguaro Nat. Park.. etc, looks as it does.  Leave it alone..

As far as any benefits, exotics, especially when the plant doesn't come from the same hemisphere or continent,  RARELY BENEFIT local wildlife.. In numerous cases, plants from other continents are ignored by, or cause problems for  local wildlife..

Those who roll their eyes and/ or think otherwise need to have long discussions w/ ecologists, etc people who actually study related sciences.. ( Yep, i said that scary, dreaded word ....SCIENCE! < watch all the science deniers run for tin foil covered shelter..> ) not listen to some square headed Journalist's cherry picked ideas on invasive species. If you don't talk with.. / haven't worked alongside these kinds of people, your thoughts on the issue have no merit, aside from popcorn entertainment..

When Buffel or Fountain Grass, Sahara Mustard, and/ or Globe Chamomile, Camelthorn, ..among other nasty invasive things here  left un-checked, ...as some people apparently think should occur,  erase a good % of Saguaro from the landscape here in the Sonoran Desert, let alone cause more fires that destroy homes / other property.. i wonder if the author of that book will come on out here and help plant new cacti / build new homes, reintroduce all the other organisms - that are linked to Saguaro- that will be lost when they disappear.. 

 

I guess it is hard to know where to draw the line. Even our own personal yards are part of the local ecosystem and planting anything that is not native in our own yards runs the risk of causing a problem with invasive species. The squirrels in the forest behind me like to eat the fruit off my Dypsis lutescens for example. Maybe they like foxtail fruit too. Who knows. I actually thought about this a lot and if I ever move again I’m going to try to use only native species in my yard. Fortunately, where I am at here in Florida, I could probably pull off a pretty tropical looking yard using only native species. 

You all should just read the book I linked to. Lol

1 hour ago, ruskinPalms said:

I guess it is hard to know where to draw the line. Even our own personal yards are part of the local ecosystem and planting anything that is not native in our own yards runs the risk of causing a problem with invasive species. The squirrels in the forest behind me like to eat the fruit off my Dypsis lutescens for example. Maybe they like foxtail fruit too. Who knows. I actually thought about this a lot and if I ever move again I’m going to try to use only native species in my yard. Fortunately, where I am at here in Florida, I could probably pull off a pretty tropical looking yard using only native species. 

Not sure i'd say it is hard..  The hard part might be breaking with certain " ideas " on the subject..  For instance, you could plant palms, other things from say Cuba, other parts of the Caribbean and / or other areas of Mexico w/ some degree of -less- concern  they might run rampant -if they escaped into natural habitat,  vs. if something from a different part of the world,  not connected to Florida now, or at some point in the " recent " geological past, were to escape..  Those plants, from say Africa or Asia won't have the checks and balances in place to thwart any forward reproductive success.

W/ palms, here at least, the only palms that would count as " allowable " in natural landscapes would be those that have occurred in said areas at some point in time in the past, before humans -from a different continent, no less- rammed their way across the land.. Brahea, Sabal uresana, Washingtonia ( ..Yep, even weedy robustra ) ..and maybe a couple Chamaedorea, Crysosphila nana, ..and a couple other, pinnate -type palms currently native to the central west coast of Mainland Mexico.. would be those one could count as  direct, " regionally native " species ...not as invasive.  

Planting Roystonea, Sabal, Coccothrinax, Copernicia, Thrinax, and /or Pseudophoenix ..that originate from Florida, the Caribbean and eastern Mexico here could be considered " indirectly native "..  Not locally but in a continent -wide region where animals that could act as check agents can ( and sometimes do ) occur in both places, even though seemingly widely separated..  Remember, Florida had a similar vegetation pattern as west Texas and California in the past..  While suspect, have seen where some sources have placed Arizona's paleo climate in the same category as Cuba at some point, quite sometime ago also.

On the other hand, Palms like Phoenix, ..and anything else not native to North, Central, and / or South America would be invasive, even if they don't " seem " to harm whatever habitat they end up in and should be axed / ripped out anytime they are discovered in a natural environment. ( to the horror of the " plant anything, anywhere, for the heck of it / because i think it's prettier than the native things "  minority mindset  )

As popular as they may be in landscapes here, widely used Australian Cassia species harm local bees / other native pollinators..  Considering the treasure chest of native ..and regionally native Cassia / Senna species here, nearby in Texas and the Southern Pains, ..and just to our south in Mexico,  absurd these aren't planted more than the non - native species,  that didn't evolve w/ the native critters. 
Same applies to many ..many other plants.. Mexico, where numerous plants that occur here now originated, let alone many other, more exotic things that once occurred here, ..and in other parts of the Southwestern U.S., Texas, and California ..at some point in the past,   is still a largely un-tapped landscape plant bonanza..  and, -for the most part- ( No doubt, there are some overly aggressive native / regionally native species too ), the plants are less likely to cause big problems if they escape...

While i might find a few things from say Africa or Australia attractive enough to grow, you'll see far more native ..and regionally native things in my yard..  No " Terry Tunnel vision " view of plants and their place in the environment here.

Edited December 10, 20214 yr by Silas_Sancona
corrections

Yeah, I think anything from Cuba, the Bahamas, and maybe even some of the other closer Caribbean islands are probably pretty safe to experiment with here. Seeds from these plants could feasibly be transported by large hurricanes or even birds from say Cuba to south Florida and then propagate up the peninsula (Roystonea?). A lot of the same species are indeed found in Florida, the Bahamas and Cuba. Palms are kept in check here by native palm weevils, native pathogens and unfortunately non-native pathogens too. And then there are the freezes, hurricanes, lightning, fires etc. that keep them in check here too. I can see how palms from vastly different areas could get out of hand though. I think I remember seeing gobs of invasive Archontophoenix in Hawaii when I visited years ago. 

Edited December 10, 20214 yr by ruskinPalms

I do wonder if red palm weevil will become a problem here in Florida since we have native palm weevils here so presumably native palm weevil predators as well?

5 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Not sure when it became ok to trash native landscapes just because they aren't " pretty " enough to satisfy the whims of some, ..but over it..  Full stop...

Natural landscapes aren't there for anyone who thinks they're " boring " to " liven up/ alter " with whatever they think should grow in X area, just to satisfy some out of touch,  self absorbed view of how a landscape should look....  Should we go over to Madagascar and randomly plant Washingtonia and Queen palms anywhere just because there aren't any visible ..out in the wild?..

Anyone who finds the native vegetation of the desert, or some other area boring ..don't ever visit.. ever...  There's a reason the vegetation at the Grand Canyon, Saguaro Nat. Park.. etc, looks as it does.  Leave it alone..

As far as any benefits, exotics, especially when the plant doesn't come from the same hemisphere or continent,  RARELY BENEFIT local wildlife.. In numerous cases, plants from other continents are ignored by, or cause problems for  local wildlife..

Those who roll their eyes and/ or think otherwise need to have long discussions w/ ecologists, etc people who actually study related sciences.. ( Yep, i said that scary, dreaded word ....SCIENCE! < watch all the science deniers run for tin foil covered shelter..> ) not listen to some square headed Journalist's cherry picked ideas on invasive species. If you don't talk with.. / haven't worked alongside these kinds of people, your thoughts on the issue have no merit, aside from popcorn entertainment..

When Buffel or Fountain Grass, Sahara Mustard, and/ or Globe Chamomile, Camelthorn, ..among other nasty invasive things here  left un-checked, ...as some people apparently think should occur,  erase a good % of Saguaro from the landscape here in the Sonoran Desert, let alone cause more fires that destroy homes / other property.. i wonder if the author of that book will come on out here and help plant new cacti / build new homes, reintroduce all the other organisms - that are linked to Saguaro- that will be lost when they disappear.. 

 

I don't see how a couple palm trees here and there is trashing the environment but okay.. You do realize we are talking about date palms here not bamboo right? Most palm trees have small root systems and are notoriously slow growing. Date palms are native to a very similar desert environment. You realize palm trees were native all the way up into Nevada but people removed them because they didn't look natural enough even though they were native.

Next time you see a row of magnolias in a southeastern forest, I hope you bring a chainsaw and bring all of them down because those magnolias are were once native to Asia but now they are native to the US. But I'm sure they benefit the ecosystem. These palms are harming nothing here from what I see. I hope you hold the same criticism to people planting Japanese maples in their yards and rhododendron. You know rhododendron was once native to Asia also and not the US but it is very prevelent near creeks here in Tennessee and harms nothing.

Yes I would see a problem of these palms were actually taking over but man this guy here is making a post about these palms because it is such a rare sight. If they were very common I doubt this forum would have any interest in them. There has been no discernable impact since these palms found there way here. It's like complaining about a flower in the middle of a crack in a parking lot and saying it is making the crack grow bigger and destroying the asphalt.

 

Edited December 10, 20214 yr by maskedmole

1 hour ago, maskedmole said:

I don't see how a couple palm trees here and there is trashing the environment but okay.. You do realize we are talking about date palms here not bamboo right? Most palm trees have small root systems and are notoriously slow growing. Date palms are native to a very similar desert environment. You realize palm trees were native all the way up into Nevada but people removed them because they didn't look natural enough even though they were native.

Next time you see a row of magnolias in a southeastern forest, I hope you bring a chainsaw and bring all of them down because those magnolias are were once native to Asia but now they are native to the US. But I'm sure they benefit the ecosystem. These palms are harming nothing here from what I see. I hope you hold the same criticism to people planting Japanese maples in their yards and rhododendron. You know rhododendron was once native to Asia also and not the US but it is very prevelent near creeks here in Tennessee and harms nothing.

Yes I would see a problem of these palms were actually taking over but man this guy here is making a post about these palms because it is such a rare sight. If they were very common I doubt this forum would have any interest in them. There has been no discernable impact since these palms found there way here. It's like complaining about a flower in the middle of a crack in a parking lot and saying it is making the crack grow bigger and destroying the asphalt.

If they are there, they are in other places too ( documented them in other places around my part of AZ myself.. Look over photos of extensive feral date groves in Baja Mexico ), ..and un-wanted, except by a few who, for whatever reason, don't understand ecology..  As far impacts, not every adverse impact can be easily observed.. sometimes it takes awhile for the bad aspects to rear their ugly heads..  In the case of Phoenix palms, it might be easy to get rid of the problem, in others, it takes time ...and ALOT of money ( Including tax payer money ) to get a handle on especially aggressive plants.  Japanese Knotweed, Bradford Pear, Water Hyacinth, Hydrilla, certain Honeysuckle sp, etc offer great examples of why the nonchalant attitude toward " bad " plants, shouldn't be acceptable, on any front. 

As much as i'd love to send seed of a few interesting things to PT members in Aus. i fully accept that probably isn't a good idea.. and accept most of the country's stance on introducing -anything- there.  Wish our country was a bit more proactive, instead of reactive on this front..  And aggressively banning chemical ferts, herbicides / insecticides..

As far as palms being native here / in this part of the world, please keep in mind who you are discussing the topic with.. 

Outside of a private garden, where you're free to plant most things, just because the environment is similar in two different places, doesn't excuse introducing date palms ..or any other plant that did not evolve with the animals native to this side of the world to natural places.. Flipping the coin,  should we release Cobras, Mamba,  Death Stalker Scorpions, or Sydney Funnel Web Spiders here?  They too occupy similar climates.. Why not?.. by the " nothing is harmful / invasive train of thought " they won't harm anything.. While we're at it, lets stop all monitoring for destructive Fruit Flies, Brazilian Wandering Spiders, Red Bellied Piranha / Goliath Tiger Fish.. " Leave the Lionfish alone " should be posted at all beaches where they're taking over, right?  Heck, lol, look at the disaster Florida is trying to get itself through involving the accidental.. or purposeful introduction of bad plants / animals.. That should be the most obvious reason not to play around with nature.  Think i'm exaggerating? spend some time talking to people down there dealing with some of the worst plants and critters gaining ground down there.

As far as the plants you mention, if they are not native ..and disrupting natural landscapes / ecosystems ..burn em' cut them down ..and BAN them, fine any and every nursery or person who sells them, to the point where it is either their house / material possessions,  or the plants ..if need be.   Japanese Maples have been banned in some areas already.. As far as Rhododendron ( ..and Azalea ) both are native to the U.S., esp. back east. They evolved here, not in Asia.. Species in Asia ( dozens ) followed a different evolutionary path, whether visible to the naked eye, or not.

As far as i'm concerned, ..and i have said it bluntly to myself when catching myself whining about it far in the past .. Appreciate the landscapes around you... " If you aren't happy enough with how the native  landscapes look ..always dreaming of living in a drippy, hot rain forest, when you live in a cool foggy place ..or where it freezes solid each winter,  pack up whatever floats your boat and move to the rain forest of your dreams.. Don't try to ruin what nature intended,  and what most people are greatly thankful for. 

I should add: think i am a bit fiery on the subject, i can only imagine what Joey Santore, the guy who hosts the " Crime Pays but Botany doesn't " video blog would have to say if he caught wid of the discussion, and wanted to chime in.. Guarantee i'd have plenty of popcorn for his thoughts.

Edited December 10, 20214 yr by Silas_Sancona
edit

Our scientific paper might be of interest to many of you :

"Non-native palms (Arecaceae) as generators of novel ecosystems: A global assessment"

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/ddi.13150

People tell me that the Sonoran desert is 'empty and boring'.  These people obviously are experiencing the desert at 70 mph.  Get out of the car and walk around !!

15 minutes ago, Darold Petty said:

People tell me that the Sonoran desert is 'empty and boring'.  These people obviously are experiencing the desert at 70 mph.  Get out of the car and walk around !!

Amen, lol..

For my part, think i've done a decent job showcasing the diversity of habitats and plants here.. and there's still alot more ground to cover.. ( already thinking about trips for next year ) That's not counting opportunities involving sharing new views of the region with our neighbors down in Mexico.

yeah right the grand canyon ad surrounding desert areas are so drab and boring. 

On 12/10/2021 at 3:21 PM, Silas_Sancona said:

If they are there, they are in other places too ( documented them in other places around my part of AZ myself.. Look over photos of extensive feral date groves in Baja Mexico ), ..and un-wanted, except by a few who, for whatever reason, don't understand ecology..  As far impacts, not every adverse impact can be easily observed.. sometimes it takes awhile for the bad aspects to rear their ugly heads..  In the case of Phoenix palms, it might be easy to get rid of the problem, in others, it takes time ...and ALOT of money ( Including tax payer money ) to get a handle on especially aggressive plants.  Japanese Knotweed, Bradford Pear, Water Hyacinth, Hydrilla, certain Honeysuckle sp, etc offer great examples of why the nonchalant attitude toward " bad " plants, shouldn't be acceptable, on any front. 

As much as i'd love to send seed of a few interesting things to PT members in Aus. i fully accept that probably isn't a good idea.. and accept most of the country's stance on introducing -anything- there.  Wish our country was a bit more proactive, instead of reactive on this front..  And aggressively banning chemical ferts, herbicides / insecticides..

As far as palms being native here / in this part of the world, please keep in mind who you are discussing the topic with.. 

Outside of a private garden, where you're free to plant most things, just because the environment is similar in two different places, doesn't excuse introducing date palms ..or any other plant that did not evolve with the animals native to this side of the world to natural places.. Flipping the coin,  should we release Cobras, Mamba,  Death Stalker Scorpions, or Sydney Funnel Web Spiders here?  They too occupy similar climates.. Why not?.. by the " nothing is harmful / invasive train of thought " they won't harm anything.. While we're at it, lets stop all monitoring for destructive Fruit Flies, Brazilian Wandering Spiders, Red Bellied Piranha / Goliath Tiger Fish.. " Leave the Lionfish alone " should be posted at all beaches where they're taking over, right?  Heck, lol, look at the disaster Florida is trying to get itself through involving the accidental.. or purposeful introduction of bad plants / animals.. That should be the most obvious reason not to play around with nature.  Think i'm exaggerating? spend some time talking to people down there dealing with some of the worst plants and critters gaining ground down there.

As far as the plants you mention, if they are not native ..and disrupting natural landscapes / ecosystems ..burn em' cut them down ..and BAN them, fine any and every nursery or person who sells them, to the point where it is either their house / material possessions,  or the plants ..if need be.   Japanese Maples have been banned in some areas already.. As far as Rhododendron ( ..and Azalea ) both are native to the U.S., esp. back east. They evolved here, not in Asia.. Species in Asia ( dozens ) followed a different evolutionary path, whether visible to the naked eye, or not.

As far as i'm concerned, ..and i have said it bluntly to myself when catching myself whining about it far in the past .. Appreciate the landscapes around you... " If you aren't happy enough with how the native  landscapes look ..always dreaming of living in a drippy, hot rain forest, when you live in a cool foggy place ..or where it freezes solid each winter,  pack up whatever floats your boat and move to the rain forest of your dreams.. Don't try to ruin what nature intended,  and what most people are greatly thankful for. 

I should add: think i am a bit fiery on the subject, i can only imagine what Joey Santore, the guy who hosts the " Crime Pays but Botany doesn't " video blog would have to say if he caught wid of the discussion, and wanted to chime in.. Guarantee i'd have plenty of popcorn for his thoughts.

"As far as palms being native here / in this part of the world, please keep in mind who you are discussing the topic with.. "

I have heard that there was a small part of Nevada where native palm trees once lived. I think maybe California fan palm? But I heard the government or some agency removed them. As for palms ever being native to the Grand Canyon in recent history, probably not. So that may have been a bit of a stretch to include that info on my part. But still, it isn't too far away was my line of reasoning I suppose. I was probably a bit heated when I said the vegetation was boring around the Grand Canyon, my mind clouded with palm oasis. Admittedly, I have never been to the Grand Canyon or any desert but I would like to go. I think desert environments are gorgeous. Cacti and yucca are some of my favorite types of plants. I do enjoy watching those videos and find desert fauna and environments fascinating. Yes he'd probably have a whole book to throw at me. I acknowledge I could be quite wrong and probably am in things I say as a crazy palm tree guy. You make good points.

Edited February 3, 20224 yr by maskedmole

The most invasive species on earth....the Human being.

They have the solution for everything except the trail of destruction behind them.

On 7/7/2018 at 7:47 AM, sonoranfans said:

That area is reservation land I think.  the national park service has no say there..  Having visited the canyon many times(8-10?), I too would prefer that national park land remain native.  If those phoenix are allowed to populate, the access and views would be degraded.  But you figured it out, phoenix palms grow like gangbusters in the heat of arizona as long as they have water.  From my 10 years growing palms in arizona and now 8 yrs in florida I'd say phoenix species ALL grow notably faster in arizona.  

Yes it is all Havasupai NDN (as they like to say) Reservation. It takes months on a waiting list usually just to be able to hike the hike down into their home. They are not spreading. Date palms don't pollinate themselves and produce viable seeds. They're just pits that someone spit out or deliberately stuck in the wet banks along the falls. The Havasupai probably like them making the place look even more exotic than it already does. That place is their home and they have as much right to allow what ever imported species to thrive there as we do around our homes.  It is NOT under purview of our Government. The only place in the world (interestingly) which has Phoenix fossil leaves is in TEXAS. We know they are either Phoenix since they are strongly induplicate and pinnate and no other Leaf remains can be identified to Taxa by leaf remains alone since there are no other Pinnate strongly induplicate leaf forms to my knowledge. Which means that at least at some point 45 million years ago there were some Phoenix spp in Texas... 

This makes the idea of what is native somewhat a question of how much "time" window are we allowed to look at. 

Washingtonia for example (one of the oldest in fossil record - 50 million) is found ubiquitously clear up to Wyoming and Colorado and south to Mexican border. Including whole fans and many thousands of Palm roots. It was extirpated in all those locations and remains only in protected areas that don't flood which have enough surface moisture which did not come under the glaciers.  So is found all the way up to the Utah border / Arizona strip / along the Colo river up various canyons and of course near 29 palms all the way along the Palm springs area and along seeps all the way from Colo river to points west into the San Gabriels.

 

Edited February 4, 20224 yr by rogets395

15 hours ago, maskedmole said:

"As far as palms being native here / in this part of the world, please keep in mind who you are discussing the topic with.. "

I have heard that there was a small part of Nevada where native palm trees once lived. I think maybe California fan palm? But I heard the government or some agency removed them. As for palms ever being native to the Grand Canyon in recent history, probably not. So that may have been a bit of a stretch to include that info on my part. But still, it isn't too far away was my line of reasoning I suppose. I was probably a bit heated when I said the vegetation was boring around the Grand Canyon, my mind clouded with palm oasis. Admittedly, I have never been to the Grand Canyon or any desert but I would like to go. I think desert environments are gorgeous. Cacti and yucca are some of my favorite types of plants. I do enjoy watching those videos and find desert fauna and environments fascinating. Yes he'd probably have a whole book to throw at me. I acknowledge I could be quite wrong and probably am in things I say as a crazy palm tree guy. You make good points.

Yes. I was the one who went with a professional Ethnographer and The Archaeo-Nevada society and talked personally with Evelyn Samalar (Native American Moapa Elder in 1995) whose grandparents were using Washingtonia filifera in the Springs long before White Mormons settled and brought in Willows and Cottonwoods from Utah and cut as many Washingtonia down as they could. They used the fruits and soaked the seeds (it was a starvation emergency food only) they made something called "Chum" with it. (Moapa language) - The Moapa were at the time of Mormon entrance to the valley in a state of disarray and mourning for over a 100 years of Navajo (Dine') raiding parties who took the women and children as slaves and sold them to the Spanish. The Moapa are linguistic cousins of the Cahuilla (palm springs NDNs) as well as the Hopi and Anasazi are ancient kin.  (Uto-Aztecan) The area for 45 miles is called the Lost city and was /is one of the longest continually inhabited areas of the West.  The elders explained how their Grandparents (before white settlers) made sweat lodges with Palm leaves and used the spadices as tools.  There are petroglyphs showing palms and There are pockets surrounding the area.  The park service is continually cutting them / poisoning them / burning them. 

They refuse to listen to anyone who is not on board with their "agenda".  They have access to all the information which is over 100 pages of research that begs the question.

So just because someone who is "official" claims something is an invasive species - does not mean they always KNOW what they are talking about. There are plenty of dishonest so called "researchers" who have agendas. 

We collected the reports of Moapa elders -- who are all dead now -- but the Park Service waited until they died and never once looked into that... even though the Archaeo-Nevada society and several Park Rangers had voted 100% to support the research into it. The ones who had ALREADY made up their minds that Washingtonia palms were an "Invasive species" to the area had a huge agenda in making sure the palm was removed from the springs. They removed over 25,000 palms with the help of their Hit pieces from James Cornet who knows nothing about the area.

 

On 12/10/2021 at 5:03 AM, maskedmole said:

I honestly don't see a problem with this. In my opinion, the vegetation in the grand canyon looks rather boring and sparse. The palm trees really liven it up and I think even suit it. I don't think it detracts from the views because the canyon is so enormous anyway. I don't see these palms as being invasive. I mean c'mon you don't even see a big mature one anywhere. You know they must grow incredibly slow. This isn't like kudzu of the American south. If anything, the natural wildlife I think would benefit from the shade and fruits. Just because something isn't natural doesnt make it a bad thing. At one point or another, many things were not natural but became so over time. If you want to talk about natural, then tell all the humans to stop coming and throwing trash everywhere. People do way more harm than a few little palm trees ever would. 

There is NOTHING Boring about the deserts of the southwest USA and especially NOT of the Grand Canyon.  

Phoenix canariensis can be incredibly invasive since it doesn't need the pollinating Wasp like Ph. Dactylifera does.  The only palms I see in Havasupai lands (and inside the canyon itself) are Ph. dactylifera. They won't "spread" since there is no pollinating wasp unless somehow someone physically connects male pollen with a female flowers while they are still sticky.  The Two growing next to each other is likely not going to be the case.  They will cluster with offshoots but they won't spread. Someone planted seeds after eating a Date snack.  It may have even been the Havasupai themselves (or NDN kids) that did it.  But it will only spread if people keep planting more seeds.  So it's unlikely to become a problem.  The canyon nearby is same clime as Tucson 9b.  Of course it freezes every single year.  Phoenix dactylifera don't care that much about Frost or snow.  They can take a lot of cold.  (pic zone 8b temp: 19f)

On 12/10/2021 at 3:49 PM, Darold Petty said:

People tell me that the Sonoran desert is 'empty and boring'.  These people obviously are experiencing the desert at 70 mph.  Get out of the car and walk around !!

That’s a fact. The Sonoran desert is amazing if you take the time to just look. Baja California especially the sea of Cortez side is absolutely beautiful. Such an underrated ecosystem. 

33 minutes ago, Stevetoad said:

That’s a fact. The Sonoran desert is amazing if you take the time to just look. Baja California especially the sea of Cortez side is absolutely beautiful. Such an underrated ecosystem. 

  ....get off the highway,  ..Escape the " man made "  and  human destroyed  versions of the desert to see how alive it really is.. 

Guaranteed, there is MUCH to be seen, beyond what looks desolate when it is hot and dry..   The secret of the desert is all about timing, ..and patience..

..Just a few of 1000's of pictures i have taken in the 6 years here.. and shared  here  ...Thats far more photographs than i'd even taken back home, where i grew up,  in California..

Pichacho Peak, in August of last year..



Santa Rita Foothills, on the way to Sonoita.. Am i sure i didn't mistakenly teleport back to California, ..in Winter ( ..It's August )  ..Was wearing a sweat shirt when i got out here that morning too!





Las Cienegas..





Picket Post Mountain, near Boyce Thompson Arboretum, after the Telegraph Fire, and rains that followed..





East of Florence, AZ.  Along the Kelvin Highway,   May 2020..  Yellow " cast " across the landscape is flowering Palo Verde.





Same area, April, 2021 ..in a completely different mood.





South Mountain..





Catalina State Park..



Pima Canyon, Tucson..





Pima Canyon, South Mountain Park, ..Up this way..   Brown's Peak / 4 Peaks in the distance..






...I could go on,  ..but everyone might get bored.. 

Yes, palms are great ..and it would've been great if some of our desert favorites were hanging out naturally in some of these pictures ..but, they aren't necessary for the Sonoran Desert, ..or any other place to be spectacular.  No need to ruin such views with what doesn't belong..   Brahea, Sabal uresana  ..or some other palm sp. that grows just a couple hundred miles to the south,  -in the Sonoran Desert-   will return to these landscapes on their own,  in time..